Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

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  • Reply 121 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    I am not familiar with the HV20 and HV30, we don't use Canon stuff where I work as it's too junky and unreliable for the most part and the HV20 is not just "consumer level" it's listed by most reviewers as "cheap." I note they both have USB ports though. I assume you will argue that USB is only for still images or whatever, but then you say you use the HV20 which would certainly fall into the "older camera" category I mentioned earlier.



    Whether or not you can find, or in fact already use a camera that only has FireWire doesn't invalidate the main point being made though. I see different kinds of cameras daily at my work and I'm the guy that helps them get the video out of the camera and into the computer. The bulk of the consumer market has moved to USB. It has. The only firewire only camera I've seen for ages is an old Sony Hi8.



    Well, you do everything to prove your complete and utter lack of knowledge, don't you?



    The HV20 is less than 2 years old (and won about every review and comparison in existence), the HV30 (equally highly praised) is current. The majority of MiniDV based STANDARD DEFINITION camcorders on the market does not support capturing via USB, with HDV it is not a problem as HDV is not captured, it is only a data transfer. All these cameras (and several from Sony, Panasonic, JVC etc) do have USB ports, just you cannot get SD video through them. You will not have problems with USB with any AVCHD and other solid storage camcorders (if OS X supports them) because there is no capturing involved and sheer data transfer does not require a sustained minium speed.



    Canon stuff "too junky and unreliable", hehe... you have never been any closer to a camcorder than a mile, uh?
  • Reply 122 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,430member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    Yeah, and people who need those are PROs. Comprende? Just in case you missed it, I'll just cite myself:



    The Duet is not aimed at Pros (It's only $500) The Ensemble is ($1500)



    And I haven't even mentioned the plethora of FW interfaces that are around 299. Oh I

    comprende very well thank you.





    There's really no justification for Apple removing a feature from a box that's closed enough.
  • Reply 123 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    And you can't settle for a $1000 refurb 2.4GHz white Macbook or $999 lowend Macbook new, why again?



    a) That MacBook will be discontinued after a while.



    b) Friends that are running out buying the MacBook without firewire will be running to me for help eventually and it will take longer to help them if I have to use their slow USB connection instead of firewire.
  • Reply 124 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post


    a) That MacBook will be discontinued after a while.



    b) Friends that are running out buying the MacBook without firewire will be running to me for help eventually and it will take longer to help them if I have to use their slow USB connection instead of firewire.



    Don't be so dramatic. The sustained speed of FW400 over USB2.0 aren't that extreme. If you care about speed you'll use 1000BASE-T, anyway. No need for crossover cable, just plug them in directly and the Mac will determine the RX and TX automatically.
  • Reply 125 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    And you can't settle for a $1000 refurb 2.4GHz white Macbook or $999 lowend Macbook new, why again?



    The new Macbooks have graphic power, I can't demo stuff that its not supported cause the graphic card, I can do stuff way more quick with more power, If I can save at least 15 minutes less that is a gain. With more power I will be able to achieve at least 35 minutes less overall.
  • Reply 126 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,430member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by drblank View Post




    Enjoy what is out there and save your $$$ if you want to MacBook Pro. I just wish they had the 17 inch ready, but I guess they have to wait until they ring out all of the bugs in the production line.



    Where's the 13" Macbook Pro? Not only is Apple now telling me that I have to spend $2k to get FW and expandiblity but they are forcing me to accept a monitor that is larger than what I want.
  • Reply 127 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by retroneo View Post


    Both of these points are wrong. UVC-DV devices work with any software that works with DV over firewire, and require no additional drivers on the Mac. And there is more than adequate bandwidth for multiple HD streams before even coming close to USB's typical throughput.



    We have not been talking about UVC-DV and HD is completely irrelevant here, as with all consumer devices it is compressed and there is no realtime capturing required, so yes, you can have a million HD streams going through USB... it will take time, but it will work. Standard definition from a DV camcorder has to be captured in realtime and the device mentioned in the original post is not sufficient to capture Standard Definition DV under OS X. We have purchased it from Pixela several months ago - it works for HDV (for the mentioned reasons) with Standard Definition (PAL) it will drop frames to maintain throughput. Definitely. We have tried at least 20 times. I cannot tell if this is a limitation of the device or the poor USB drivers in OS X though.
  • Reply 128 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ksec View Post


    Sorry i am totally lost........ Someone please explain to me.



    The Macbook no longer has Firewire, and only Macbook Pro have Firewire,

    Firewire has always been more expensive and more professional look to it.



    So if you want professional port for professional job you want a professional macbook. The Macbook Pro.



    So what is the big deal?



    You can afford to buy Professional Expensive Camcorder, and not afford to buy a Macbook Pro?

    It is not Apple completely drop Firewire from all range of their product.



    If you want an Professional Mini Notebook then it is a different Story. But that is the problem apple doesn't have Mini Pro Notebook. Which is like they dont have xMac.



    And i forgot to mention we have USB 3.0 coming in less then 12 months time.



    Its kind of valid your input. But what happens to those who use external firewire hard drives?

    Can you give me a fix to that? I cant daisy chain USB hard drive, transfer rate over USB 2.0 is also not constant, I can't boot from an USB 2.0 and the list just grows. That is not at all a pro use of Firewire, is just daily thing a lot of people does.



    Mostly the people is complaining cause Apple is taking away something that in the first place they taught us to get used to.
  • Reply 129 of 1665
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,953member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    Its kind of valid your input. But what happens to those who use external firewire hard drives?

    Can you give me a fix to that? I cant daisy chain USB hard drive, transfer rate over USB 2.0 is also not constant, I can't boot from an USB 2.0 and the list goes grows.



    Mostly the people is complaining cause Apple is taking away something that in the first place they taught us to get used to.



    One minor correction here, Intel Macs can boot from USB 2.
  • Reply 130 of 1665
    olternautolternaut Posts: 1,376member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by coolfactor View Post


    Apple's thinking is and always will be slightly ahead of consumers' thinking. Sure, we hate to lose Firewire, a technology that has a cool name, great performance, and bragging rights, since Apple invented it. But if you stop and think about it... the MacBook (which no longer has Firewire) is targeted to a market that probably won't ever use Firewire. The vocal minority here are the ones that should be looking at a MacBook Pro anyway, which still has their beloved port.



    (Firewire has saved my butt many times over with Target Disk Mode, but I understand that the landscape changes, and so will our products. Just look at the myriad of display/video ports we've gone through in the past few years).



    Face it people....firewire is dead. You think after the macbook event and Jobs' comments that firewire has much of a future? Go look for adapters in the meantime (and trust me 3rd parties will be all over this) and/or save up to upgrade your peripherals.
  • Reply 131 of 1665
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by xwiredtva View Post


    Intel OWNS USB.

    Apple OWNS Firewire.



    This debate goes back to the 80's and early 90's. Apple created FW. They did NOT want to license it to PC makers to give Apple an edge. The edge really was their ability to work with creative works, not the FW part.



    Later in our story... Intel now a complete package developer on the hardware front. From CPU to the board itself was including USB 1.1. Firewire cards worth buying cost upwards of $300. Intel builds upon 1.1 and develops version 2. Now Intel license the rights to use 2.0 to companys making billions of boards a year (not a lie here, billions in the 90's-not just motherboards either). Intel charges .01 per port, Apple charges a lot more. USB becomes cheaper and easier to implement and is reliable, thus the it becomes standard on 99% of what sells, PC's. Apple see's USB 1.1 as a great way to decrease the amount of chips and controllers it needs and adopts it into the iMac's in 1997, iBooks, etc... It was originally designed to replace PS/2 (An IBM development named after the PS/2 line of computers BTW).



    None of this is a reason why Intel could not have supported FireWire in 1999 when it was clearly a better technology than USB.
  • Reply 132 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    Its kind of valid your input. But what happens to those who use external firewire hard drives?

    Can you give me a fix to that? I cant daisy chain USB hard drive, transfer rate over USB 2.0 is also not constant, I can't boot from an USB 2.0 and the list just grows. That is not at all a pro use of Firewire, is just daily thing a lot of people does.



    Mostly the people is complaining cause Apple is taking away something that in the first place they taught us to get used to.



    1. If your external HD doesn't have USB port already, buy an external USB HD case for $12. Open your FW case, take the HD out and put in the USB one. Done.

    2. You can definitely boot from external USB drives with all Intel Macs.

    3. With USB, you don't chain them, you hub them. Buy a nice USB2 hub for $20.



    Seriously, people should complain about the lack of USB ports (only 2).
  • Reply 133 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    One minor correction here, Intel Macs can boot from USB 2.



    1. Do you have tried it by yourself?

    2. What you do when the transfer rate drops and you are in the middle of a system restoration?

    Answer: a. You have to start over b. You probably end with the target HD damaged (same when a blackout happens while an install or restoration) That means you have to buy a new HD to replace the damaged one.

    3. Not everyone has an Intel, I have customers with old first generation PowerBooks, Power Macs and alike.
  • Reply 134 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    1. Do you have tried it by yourself?

    2. What you do when the transfer rate drops and you are in the middle of a system restoration?

    Answer: a. You have to start over b. You probably end with the target HD damaged (same when a blackout happens while an install or restoration) That means you have to buy a new HD to replace the damaged one.

    3. Not everyone has an Intel, I have customers with old first generation PowerBooks, Power Macs and alike.



    1. Yes

    2. Ever happened to you? I haven't had any failure with USB drives.

    3. We are talking about the new Macbook, are we? Are you saying with the new Macbook, your old Mac's FW stops working?



    I didn't know Job has the power to remotely disable old hardware....
  • Reply 135 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chriskeo View Post


    Who buys a $20,000 camcorder and doesnt want to dish out an extra $400-700 for the MacBook Pro, which still has a firewire port



    This non-argument is getting o-so-long in the tooth... I can happily spend 10,000 USD on a laptop if it meets my requirements - I do have the 17" MBP with all the toppings (320GB 7200 RPM HD, 4GB RAM, 1920x1200 highres display). No way in hell I would lug around this gorgeous laptop for video shooting. It is too big, too heavy and I do not require any of its power on the road.



    The fact is that other computer makers can make 10" or 12" models with some means of expansion. Look at e.g. the Lenovo X200 - 12" with the same resolution as the MacBook, wireless USB, fingerprint reader, 5-in-1 card reader, ExpressCard slot accepting e.g. any Firewire adapter (and will also accept e.g. USB 3 adapters in the future), 3 USB ports, n Wifi, iSight, everything Apple cannot put in a 13,3" laptop being more expensive... for 1600 USD you do not get anything from Apple.



    Look at it from any angle: The MacBook is 100% overpriced and now has inherited most limitations from the Air to make it even worse. Pointing at an even bigger model for a solution is no solution.
  • Reply 136 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    1. Do you have tried it by yourself?

    2. What you do when the transfer rate drops and you are in the middle of a system restoration?

    Answer: a. You have to start over b. You probably end with the target HD damaged (same when a blackout happens while an install or restoration) That means you have to buy a new HD to replace the damaged one.

    3. Not everyone has an Intel, I have customers with old first generation PowerBooks, Power Macs and alike.



    1/2 Jeff is right. It works without problems IF the disk has been formatted with the correct partition map. Nothing happens when the framerate drops - it even works over WiFi... speed is completely irrelevant for data transfers (if you are patient). And yes, I have tried it. You cannot get into target disk mode via USB though.

    3 is a valid point.
  • Reply 137 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    The Duet is not aimed at Pros (It's only $500) The Ensemble is ($1500)



    And I haven't even mentioned the plethora of FW interfaces that are around 299. Oh I

    comprende very well thank you.





    Since when does price per se dictate whether or not a piece of equipment is pro? If you are a customer that absolutely NEEDS to use a FireWire audio interface, you are a pro. If you're not a pro, then you can settle for any number of USB audio interfaces, OR, if you are at that liminal state between a pro and a non-pro, you can always pick up a 2.4GHz white MacBook with FW400 for $1050 refurb as I've repeated like 10 times in this thread. By the time that is obsolete, this will be a total non-issue, even for people like you. So, no, really, you don't comprende at all.





    Quote:

    There's really no justification for Apple removing a feature from a box that's closed enough.





    Are you illiterate or something? I, along with many others on this thread have been providing multiple arguable justifications for Apple removing FW400 from MacBook. It's one thing for you to say that you don't agree with any of them; but it's totally idiotic to claim "there's really no justification"
  • Reply 138 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnqh View Post


    1. If your external HD doesn't have USB port already, buy an external USB HD case for $12. Open your FW case, take the HD out and put in the USB one. Done.

    2. You can definitely boot from external USB drives with all Intel Macs.

    3. With USB, you don't chain them, you hub them. Buy a nice USB2 hub for $20.



    Seriously, people should complain about the lack of USB ports (only 2).



    What kind of advise is that? a 12 bucks USB case/nice USB 2.0 hub for 20?



    I have been doing Apple/HP + Pro video consulting for the last 8 years. I earn every dollar from it. That means I have used almost any technology available to do my job and USB 2.0 failed miserably.

    USB 2.0 standard its not comparable to firewire by any means. You can write the stats and whatever you want using even your blood but in real life USB 2.0 will let you down.

    I have FW case with IDE/ SATA / SATA II / eSata even a rare and expensive one with fiber optics and many of then have a USB 2.0 but I don't even use that standard to place an external DVD burner on a USB case.



    If I learned something all this 25 years as Apple user is that quality goest first always, its like placing chinese parts in you car ( assuming you have a US or euro build car)
  • Reply 138 of 1665
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    The fact is that other computer makers can make 10" or 12" models with some means of expansion. Look at e.g. the Lenovo X200 - 12" with the same resolution as the MacBook, wireless USB, fingerprint reader, 5-in-1 card reader, ExpressCard slot accepting e.g. any Firewire adapter (and will also accept e.g. USB 3 adapters in the future), 3 USB ports, n Wifi, iSight, everything Apple cannot put in a 13,3" laptop being more expensive... for 1600 USD you do not get anything from Apple.



    If they cannot then you really can't blame them as it is out of their control, or is that they won't because they only care to add ports that the majority of their customers will use. Seriously though, you point out the ports while alluding to or simply falsely assuming that everything else is the same. Very disingenuous.
  • Reply 140 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    1/2 Jeff is right. It works without problems IF the disk has been formatted with the correct partition map. Nothing happens when the framerate drops - it even works over WiFi... speed is completely irrelevant for data transfers (if you are patient). And yes, I have tried it. You cannot get into target disk mode via USB though.

    3 is a valid point.



    3 is a valid point?



    OK, it is a valid point if you want to use the same external HD for both old and new....but then, most external FW HD already have USB2 port (unless it is 3 years old), unless I missed something here.
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