Jobs responds to outrage over MacBook's missing FireWire

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  • Reply 81 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    AVCHD works fine in iMovie, FCE and FCS. The commands you use are slightly different in the FC programs. Yes, I've tried it using SD cards from my HF10 (AVCHD standard) on the latest versions all three programs.



    Well, it does work fine with supported camcorders, yes. Unfortunately this does not include all models on the market, not even all models from the top 5 manufacturers (and it gets even worse with camcorders using optical media). This might/should improve in the future, but going back to a point where we have to check each and every device for OS X compatibiliy before making a purchase is not really progress, or?!



    Until less than a year ago MiniDV-based camcorders where the only safe choice for Apple users, any other consumer accessible/affordable technology was not remotely supported under Tiger, iLife 06 and older FCP/FCE versions. Whenever MS causes compatibility issues the Apple crowd is all over it, when Apple releases a 1,600 USD laptop (with 600 USD features) that breaks compatibility with existing and expensive equipment you can be sure the fanboys will call it an innovation, just like the "a miracle" cheering crowd in the Life of Brian.
  • Reply 82 of 1665
    johnqhjohnqh Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post


    It would cost a lot less than $500.



    OK, let's say 2% of the users use Firewire (I think 2% is pretty close).



    It adds $10 to the machine.



    Does it make sense to make everyone pay $10 extra, so the 2% save $500?
  • Reply 83 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by IQatEdo View Post


    To disagree with Apple on a design change and even to argue a case here is not whining. You on the other hand are.





    If you're not whining, why don't you address the point I made in that post rather than trying to nit-pick my choice of words... which is so dangerously close to whining \
  • Reply 84 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    That argument is simply outdated. I was right there with people complaining about the disappearance of FireWire iPod models when that happened. But it happened BACK THEN.



    And that is affecting you NOW.



    The iPods have gotten bigger and now it is taking you longer and longer to move your content to it over that slow USB connection.
  • Reply 85 of 1665
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    Well, it does work fine with supported camcorders, yes. Unfortunately this does not include all models on the market, not even all models from the top 5 manufacturers (and it gets even worse with camcorders using optical media). This might/should improve in the future, but going back to a point where we have to check each and every device for OS X compatibiliy before making a purchase is not really progress, or?!



    Its not Apple's fault camera manufacturers refuse to standardize their video formats. Create all kinds of crazy proprietary codecs to lock you into their system.



    Quote:

    Until less than a year ago MiniDV-based camcorders where the only safe choice for Apple users, any other consumer accessible/affordable technology was not remotely supported under Tiger



    This has nothing to do with Apple. DV is a standard codec that every camera manufacturer abided by. Just because someone decides to go down their own path doesn't mean Apple needs to support them.
  • Reply 86 of 1665
    Those defending Apple's decision to drop firewire from the new Macbook are missing the point that Apple has(maybe had now) customers with money in hand ready to buy new Macbooks but simply want firewire on there as well. Instead Apple offers up to people to downgrade to lowerend Macbook(old model of course), upgrade video equipment if video is the reason, and/or upgrade to new Macbook Pro.....or change platforms.



    With those options Apple is actually reducing their chances of keeping customers doing consumer video or gaining new ones. Of course I believe with Apple's growing popularity with college kids Apple has chosen to be singleminded toward their greatest customer base and dismiss their reputation they gained over the years as one that provides solutions. They are now truly showing their colors with becoming a consumer company that just wants to ship what's hot. It makes one wonder if iLife will be getting anywhere near as much attention as in the past....hmmm...I think we've already seen this happening.



    Of course looking at the big picture now many wonder where firewire stands with Mac mini's and iMacs. What Apple has failed to realize is that those with firewire cameras that they are not peripherals like a floppy drive but real devices that are able to interact with computers if needed. Most consumers don't like to upgrade such devices so often whereas they do with computers. Nice going Apple! Now you've just pushed more customers away and reduced sales even more.



    All in all this had to happen at some point but it's now way too early. Apple provided no means of a transition to a solution they provided for their new Macbooks.



    For what it's worth yeah I was one of these customers that had money in hand. If it wasn't for the fact that Apple offered a refurb last gen 15" Macbook Pro for $1349, I was seriously contemplating another platform for my home/personal use. Lucky for me I actually think I've come out ahead in this game unless Apple does something at the OS level down the road that negatively affects the advantages I have with the Macbook Pro I just ordered over the new gen Macbook I was going to order.



    Apple is regardless making a number of good decisions to get their growth like they have but with the way a number of things have been over the last year for Apple(mobileme and iphone rollout, quality issues, etc) I can't help but think they're growing too fast and can't see the forest for the trees. They're honestly beginning to make MS look consumer friendly.
  • Reply 87 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Dave K. View Post


    Windows Only!



    No it's NOT.



    Mac OS X has had support for UVC since 10.4.9 and iMovie 08 supports UVC camcorders too.
  • Reply 88 of 1665
    ksecksec Posts: 1,569member
    Sorry i am totally lost........ Someone please explain to me.



    The Macbook no longer has Firewire, and only Macbook Pro have Firewire,

    Firewire has always been more expensive and more professional look to it.



    So if you want professional port for professional job you want a professional macbook. The Macbook Pro.



    So what is the big deal?



    You can afford to buy Professional Expensive Camcorder, and not afford to buy a Macbook Pro?

    It is not Apple completely drop Firewire from all range of their product.



    If you want an Professional Mini Notebook then it is a different Story. But that is the problem apple doesn't have Mini Pro Notebook. Which is like they dont have xMac.



    And i forgot to mention we have USB 3.0 coming in less then 12 months time.
  • Reply 89 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnqh View Post


    OK, let's say 2% of the users use Firewire (I think 2% is pretty close).



    It adds $10 to the machine.



    Does it make sense to make everyone pay $10 extra, so the 2% save $500?





    See, that's not even the issue for Apple. Because obviously, Apple wasn't going to sell the Macbooks for $1309 and $1609 to include FireWire... that's not how Apple products are priced. It had to be $1299 and $1599.





    Which means adding FW, however much that would've cost, would have been entirely a relative "loss" for Apple.





    Let's say Apple sells a ballpark 7 million units of these in the next year. That's a $70 million relative loss for Apple.





    So the question that needs to be asked is "Do you expect Apple to bite hard and swallow a $70 million loss for a port that 2% of users will ever use?"
  • Reply 90 of 1665
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,430member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mrpiddly View Post


    In all honesty, it does not matter if firewire is a better standard. The fact is that USB is used much more often on a consumer level than firewire. This fact alone justifies the removal of firewire from a consumer level product.



    (you may not choose see it this way, but that is because you actually use firewire.)



    No this is incorrect. Justification on whether is should exist or not is subjective to each and every one of us. Even if we forget that all preceding Macbooks had Firewire the majority of people would probably prefer to have a more inclusive computer.



    In short since there's no hard cost associated with FW most people would choose to have it rather than forgo on the benefits.



    The anecdotal stories are nice but how many people can really articulate the differences between the two technologies in order to make a decision on the relative value?
  • Reply 91 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    So the question that needs to be asked is "Do you expect Apple to bite hard and swallow a $70 million loss for a port that 2% of users will every use?"



    That must be the same 2% that actually put cards into the slots of a MacPro.



    Yet Apple still hasn't made a small, powerful tower that can be used by people who just want a fast computer with as many cores as are available.



    How much cheaper would a small tower be to make?
  • Reply 92 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post


    And that is affecting you NOW.



    The iPods have gotten bigger and now it is taking you longer and longer to move your content to it over that slow USB connection.



    Slower perhaps but tell me how many systems have firewire and no usb in their default configurations? At least that transition still allowed for use of the ipods with systems shipped in default configurations.



    Apple's brain fart of a choice with their Macbook gives no such option if you have a consumer level camera that requires firewire to interact with a computer.
  • Reply 93 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    1) No one is being left unsupported. There is a $999 MacBook with SuperDrive that has FW400 or—and this is a tricky concept—use your current machine.



    2) Except is a preposition that specifies an exclusion in a category or group.



    4) Again, keep the machine you have, buy the $300 cheaper MB, buy the $800 more expensive MBP (since you obviously out of the range of consumer that the MB was designed for), buy a Mac Pro so you can put in multiple PCIe FW cards, buy a fricken non-Mac PC.



    I have a Macbook, 2 Macbook Pros, 3 MacPros, 2 iMacs, 1 Mac Mini, 1 eMac, 1 PowerMac G5.



    It wont kill me to replace or buy a new Macbook Pro casue the firewrire, but since I don't live in USA and my cost is $ 350 to $400 more for the US price. I was hoping to use the new Macbook for support cause I wont get a hearattack if it gets stollen or broken.

    It made more sense for me to get a new Macbook since its way more powerful anc close to a MacBook Pro and use it for support. That way I could try to boot from mine when diagnose another Mac over a customers office or residence, etc etc etc.



    I will end acquiring the 2.55 MBP even if cost me 1150 more compared to a MacBook since I can't use the MBP's cause they serve as forensic machines. It will hurt my pocket but doesn't change the fact that for the first time I felt letdown by Apple cause I understand how a lot of USERS feel. At the end the firewire no thingy on the new Macbook affect mostly USERS not switchers that will start to discover OS X wonders.



    I actually guess that adding firewire to such smaller machine will affect energy management and motherboard design, it makes sense for the "target" but then I probably would loved have axed a usb port than a FW one.



  • Reply 94 of 1665
    dreyfus2dreyfus2 Posts: 1,072member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by TenoBell View Post


    I'm not sure why you say its not their yet. Its here now. Most professional video operations are moving to Panasonic P2 or Sony XDCAM HD. Both formats are based on digital files.



    Sorry, I was too unspecific - I meant it is not there for consumer budgets.



    I love P2 (and my HVX), but it is not at all consumer technology and while it works great in news gathering (short shots), its usefulness dwindles a bit when doing long shots in the field. Getting 8 minutes of footage on a 1200 USD card is getting painful at some point (prices may be a bit lower by now, I bought the HVX the moment it was released). If you re-use cards in the field after capturing you have no back-up, if you want a backup you have to carry another hard drive (if one is enough)... I have done that and there are really still some applications where tape has its advantages.
  • Reply 95 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by plokoonpma View Post


    I will end acquiring the 2.55 MBP even if cost me 1150 more compared to a MacBook since I can't use the MBP's cause they serve as forensic machines. It will hurt my pocket but doesn't change the fact that for the first time I felt letdown by Apple cause I understand how a lot of USERS feel. At the end the firewire no thingy on the new Macbook affect mostly USERS not switchers that will start to discover OS X wonders.







    And you can't settle for a $1000 refurb 2.4GHz white Macbook or $999 lowend Macbook new, why again?
  • Reply 96 of 1665
    sennensennen Posts: 1,472member
    i find it disappointing that they've omitted fw, but can understand the reasons behind it. i hope that a decent work-around is found in the near future...



    if ppl need a new macbook with fw, definitely jump at the model from 48 hours ago, it will last you til you have to replace your fw peripherals if not longer.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OriginalMacRat View Post


    If Apple had left firewire in iPods what would that answer be?



    as they didn't, it's completely pointless to ask.
  • Reply 97 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by zzcoop View Post


    My Canon HG10 transfers HD video via USB just fine.



    The transfer is just a matter of copying files; capturing from tape is different. That's what we're all complaining about.



    And that's the underlying concept here: Apple sees videotape going away. (And it is.) If you're camera isn't tape-based, then FW is unnecessary.



    What's annoying for my family is that the purchase of a new MacBook requires the purchase of a new file-based video camera. (I just bought a Canon HV30 because I prefer everything being archived on mini-DV tape.) This is a dumb move for Apple given the recession. How many people want to buy a new camera because they can't use their current one with a MacBook?



    Apple: Just put a freaking ExpressCard slot on the MacBook and we'll all shut up.
  • Reply 98 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by johnqh View Post


    OK, let's say 2% of the users use Firewire (I think 2% is pretty close).



    It adds $10 to the machine.



    Does it make sense to make everyone pay $10 extra, so the 2% save $500?



    So I'm guessing you think that displayport is going to be greater than 2% on a Macbook? What about the altered headphone jack just so people with iphone headphones can now use the clicker? How about the new trackpad? The previous one worked pretty damn good. Do you really think very many percentagewise will be using the new gesture features?



    I've defended Apple in the past in arguments regarding their reputation of form over function but in the case of the Macbook, there is no argument. They blew it with one of their (previous?)core customer bases.
  • Reply 99 of 1665
    virgil-tb2virgil-tb2 Posts: 1,416member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    You have positively no idea whatyou are talking about. Not the faintest clue...



    Actually I am extremely familiar with this kind of equipment and deal with it on a daily basis. I have for years.



    [QUOTE=dreyfus2;1324984] 2) I cannot carry a Mac Pro, Mini or iMac around in my video backpack which weighs 80 lbs already.[ /quote]this is the most lame, BS excuse I have heard so far.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    The MacBook is not cheap - it is something like 100% more expensive than competitive laptops on the market...



    More complete BS.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    3) I did exactly that. The mentioned HV20 as well as the current HV30 are both consumer gear and they (and a slew of others) do support capturing via FW only.



    I mentioned gear that is current, consumer level and you should get your facts straight. ...



    I am not familiar with the HV20 and HV30, we don't use Canon stuff where I work as it's too junky and unreliable for the most part and the HV20 is not just "consumer level" it's listed by most reviewers as "cheap." I note they both have USB ports though. I assume you will argue that USB is only for still images or whatever, but then you say you use the HV20 which would certainly fall into the "older camera" category I mentioned earlier.



    Whether or not you can find, or in fact already use a camera that only has FireWire doesn't invalidate the main point being made though. I see different kinds of cameras daily at my work and I'm the guy that helps them get the video out of the camera and into the computer. The bulk of the consumer market has moved to USB. It has. The only firewire only camera I've seen for ages is an old Sony Hi8.



    I don't personally like it, I like FireWire actually. I am disappointed it isn't in the MacBook for the much more important reason that FireWire target mode will no longer be possible, but the whole camera "thing" is just not a valid argument as far as I'm concerned.



    it goes like this:
    • Consumer level: cheap USB camera, MacBook, iMovie

    • Pro level: goddamn expensive FireWire camera, MacBook Pro, Final Cut

  • Reply 100 of 1665
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by dreyfus2 View Post


    1. Does not work under OS X, 2. Is too slow to capture MiniDV even under Windows (dropped frames will result in footage that cannot be edited later on, but it's a nice waste of time).



    Both of these points are wrong. UVC-DV devices require no additional drivers on the Mac. And there is more than adequate bandwidth for multiple HD streams before even coming close to USB's typical throughput.
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