??? Pardon, I am not sure I can make any sense out of this... Apple is out of control designing their own notebooks? (Well, uh, whatever. In this case it does make sense to talk 15 minutes about torturing aluminum instead...)
Every single Apple user I know is using Firewire - and even if you only use it once to transfer your data and settings from the previous Mac... so the real figure should be closer to 100% than 2%. And performing this transfer over LAN/WiFi is not an equal option at all (unless you have nothing else to do in life).
Apple used to be about people who change the world and think different - that's INDIVIDUALS... they were better at that than at assuming what the majority might use. There is no financial or logical or engineering argument why you cannot put a FW port (or a small ExpressCard slot) into a laptop of that size (if I remember correctly they were doing just that until 3 days ago). It is just blackmailing users to buy the next bigger thing. I would happily pay them the price of the 15" MBP for a 13" MB with Firewire (even if this would be a complete rip off). As it stands all the marvel of Apple engineering can do today is create a 13.3" laptop that is more restricted than the 12" PowerBook several years ago. Fatigue?
I am not alluding everything else is the same, except for the lack of OS X the X200 beats the crap out of all MacBooks and MacBook Airs Apple has on offer and is quite a bit cheaper. The only thing it lacks is a nice aluminum shell. If Apple cannot build any decent machine being smaller than 15.4" and weighing 5 lbs - they should license their OS to somebody with this ability.
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook? For years the only really solid, reliable and fast way to do that has been to connect a FW cable between Macs and restart while pressing the T key.
Despite claims made here by some, that just doesn't work reliably with USB -- so please, just explain what we should do now?
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook? For years the only really solid, reliable and fast way to do that has been to connect a FW cable between Macs and restart while pressing the T key.
Despite claims made here by some, that just doesn't work reliably with USB -- so please, just explain what we should do now?
Thank you.
What do you mean it doesn't work RELIABLY with USB? It doesn't work AT ALL.
I am just saying the writing was on the wall for years now (3 years, to be exact). Give it another two years, I think you will agree with me.
Oh I agree with you. In my case hindsight is 20/20 here and I began to notice a couple of years ago that Apple really didn't have much Apple branded FW gear. I do agree that their interest in pushing it as a consumer interconnect waned years ago.
They will continue to focus on it within their Pro lineup and I bet we see FW 3.2Gbps in the Nehalem Mac Pros.
I believe that Mac fans have every right to complain but I don't see Apple capitulating here.
Correct...FW800 will indeed disappear by the time USB 3.0 comes out. Firewire 3200 will be shipping as the high end FW of choice then.
FW3200 should be out before USB3.0, and it uses the same port as FW800.
FireWire S1600 and S3200
In December 2007, the 1394 Trade Association announced that products will be available before the end of 2008 using the S1600 and S3200 modes that, for the most part, had already been defined in 1394b. The 1.6 Gbit/s and 3.2 Gbit/s devices will use the same 9-pin connectors as the existing FireWire 800 and will be fully compatible with existing S400 and S800 devices. It will compete with the forthcoming USB 3.0.
[edit]FireWire S800T (IEEE 1394c-2006)
Something interesting I found at Wikipedia (unconfirmed) about FW over RJ-45 (Ethernet)
FireWire is enhanced to share gigabit Category 5e cable
IEEE 1394c-2006 was published on June 8, 2007.
It provides the following improvements
A new port specification which provides 800 Mbit/s over the same RJ45 connectors with Category 5e cable which is specified in IEEE 802.3 clause 40 (gigabit Ethernet over copper twisted pair)
An automatic negotiation that allows the same port to connect to either IEEE Std 1394 or IEEE 802.3 (Ethernet) devices.
Various minor updates to IEEE 1394b
Though the potential for a combined Ethernet and FireWire RJ45 port is intriguing, as of December 2007, there are no products or chipsets which include this capability.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dreyfus2
??? Pardon, I am not sure I can make any sense out of this... Apple is out of control designing their own notebooks? (Well, uh, whatever. In this case it does make sense to talk 15 minutes about torturing aluminum instead...)
You can't that Apple "cannot", I was larking that the correct term is that they "won't", as they surely can do it they wanted to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iedsri
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook?
Do a Software Update. Migration Assistant has been updated (40MB) to work over WiFi, USB, and Ethernet.
the Pro model is there for your professional needs.
Show me a 13" MacBook Pro and I'll buy it immediately. The 15" model is not an option. Neither is the last model with it's pathetic excuse for a graphics card.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bugsnw
I wish Apple had standardized on FW800 for all their Macs, but I can accept that the lower end will only offer USB.
Lower end? Are you joking? Apple does not make anything "lower end". The Macbook is at best midrange and it's features as well as it's price bear that out. If you think $1299 is lower end, you need to get out more.
I am not alluding everything else is the same, except for the lack of OS X the X200 beats the crap out of all MacBooks and MacBook Airs Apple has on offer and is quite a bit cheaper. The only thing it lacks is a nice aluminum shell. If Apple cannot build any decent machine being smaller than 15.4" and weighing 5 lbs - they should license their OS to somebody with this ability.
The Lenovo X200 is configured so differently from the Macs its somewhat difficult to make a comparison. For $1099 it has a faster processor, but comes with 1GB of RAM, an 80GB HDD, no bluetooth, and Intel GMA X4500. Compared to the stock MacBook it lacks more than only the aluminum shell.
It has some pluses and minuses. Graphics being a big minus. To configure it more in line with the stock MacBook costs $1,402
I'm not sure how you figure this kills the MacBook.
Sorry man, I wont write something if it didn't happened to me, thats how I use to say things, thru personal experience. I have lost 3 USB 2.0 externals cause the drops and 2 internal HD's on the Mac itself. I gave USB 2.0 cases and standard a very good try for 2 years and didn't worked almost as flawless Firewire has been doing. The only disk I ever lost over a Firewire case was totally my fault cause I dropped the case from 4 feet high.
If it would happened once I would say it was random, but several times is not right
I did not mean to say you were making something up - if it did sound like that I do apologize. I just assume that the reasoning may be flawed, in a sense of confusing cause and effect. A system restore for sure does not fail because of a dropping data rate - that is technically impossible, I have restored systems through coupled dial-up connections using Ghost - no USB drive can be any slower. There must be a reason for the drop and the failure and it is not unlikely to be related to USB (e.g. if you have more than one USB device connected the bus may run out of power at some point, especially with external USB cases with poor controllers, even a malfunctioning mouse can bring down the entire bus), but still the drop in speed cannot cause the failure - the drop in speed is a symptom of the same failure.
Wow..you're really struggling with your argumentation aren't you?
I've articulated the technical reason why Firewire is suitable for audio applications over USB and the best you can do is launch ad hominem attacts and , blah blah blah
Don't even try being patronizing; I was already making music on my LC575 in the early 90s. I fully understand the benefits of FW over USB. What I am saying, and it's astonishing that I have to spell it out for you, is that if you absolutely need those benefits---this is different from *wanting,* do you understand?––then you are a pro. If you are NOT a pro, then you don't NEED it. Period.
Because if you did, then you would buy the MacBook Pro in a nanosecond, and not waste any of your precious creative hours on this board bitching about the lack of FW400 on the new MacBooks.
Now, why don't you go ahead and address the other, very valid point I make; why can't you settle for a white 2.4GHz MacBook that is pretty much on par, spec-wise, with the higher end new MacBook (since you won't be using that 9400M much when working in audio apps), that you can get for $600 cheaper? Which will not become obsolete for several years, at which point this will be a total non-issue??
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook? For years the only really solid, reliable and fast way to do that has been to connect a FW cable between Macs and restart while pressing the T key.
Despite claims made here by some, that just doesn't work reliably with USB -- so please, just explain what we should do now?
Thank you.
Hi, You can hook'em up over a ethernet or a network and transfer the data you want. You can clone almost all your system to a new macbook but is kind of more work for somebody is not used too.
I can do clones of machines without the setup assistant over firewire but is a lot of copying.
So lets keep it simple, ethernet/network then transfer. Hope it helps a bit
Now, why don't you go ahead and address the other, very valid point I make; why can't you settle for a white 2.4GHz MacBook that is pretty much on par, spec-wise, with the higher end new MacBook (since you won't be using that 9400M much when working in audio apps), that you can get for $600 cheaper? Which will not become obsolete for several years, at which point this will be a total non-issue??
BTW, I've already spoken with two of my DJ/creator pals in Tokyo, and while they are both disappointed about the lack of FW in the new MacBooks, they understand the move, are not going bonkers over it, and one is already committing to buy a new MBP, and the other is contemplating snatching up the 2.4GHz black MacBook while supplies last. Really, that is the attitude some of you need.
Does it make sense to make everyone pay $10 extra?
In order to have their data salvageable when their Mac doesn't boot, yes, yes it does make sense.
It is the same as paying extra on your car for airbags when only a small percentage of us will ever get into a head-on accident. It's insurance against loss, provides peace of mind, and is just plain smart.
EFiX is pretty cool, but the chip has to be tailored to each MoBo, which is going to be a tough battle. I think it's pretty cool tech and can't wait to see it splayed out. Unlike Psystar, I see no violation of Apple's patents or copyrights, just their EULA, which means nothing. So it looks like Apple's can only recourse is to out tech them with future versions of OS X.
Now, why don't you go ahead and address the other, very valid point I make; why can't you settle for a white 2.4GHz MacBook that is pretty much on par, spec-wise, with the higher end new MacBook (since you won't be using that 9400M much when working in audio apps), that you can get for $600 cheaper? Which will not become obsolete for several years, at which point this will be a total non-issue??
I did not mean to say you were making something up - if it did sound like that I do apologize. I just assume that the reasoning may be flawed, in a sense of confusing cause and effect. A system restore for sure does not fail because of a dropping data rate - that is technically impossible, I have restored systems through coupled dial-up connections using Ghost - no USB drive can be any slower. There must be a reason for the drop and the failure and it is not unlikely to be related to USB (e.g. if you have more than one USB device connected the bus may run out of power at some point, especially with external USB cases with poor controllers, even a malfunctioning mouse can bring down the entire bus), but still the drop in speed cannot cause the failure - the drop in speed is a symptom of the same failure.
Its ok man, not anyone had that bad luck with those USB 2.0 as me.
It is just it will make my work harder. Almost all those new switcher has no experience on Macs and they tend to complicate too much simple stuff. Since the macbook is the best selling computer.... that only means for me that I will service exponentially more of those and now I will have to create a new system to do it cause the old methods wont work.
I probably will end up paying for a script to automatize copy of data over the affected machine, that will make more easier to transfer data manually and clone the damaged comp more easier.
Upon examining the MB chassis and logic board it's clear to me there was no technical basis for removing the Firewire. There's room for FW and including it would only increase the cost of the Macbook incrementally.
That leave me to conclude AAPL crippled the Macbook strictly for marketing purposes. In so doing they pissed off a lot of users (like me) who have taken AAPL's lead and invested heavily in Firewire. It's also unlike AAPL to downgrade to an inferior technology like USB in their new products. Remember, a CD-ROM was a step-up from a floppy drive -- not a step down!
I predict AAPL may reincorporate FW in the MB because in the past AAPL has admitted and remedied former missteps. The $600 iPhone, for example. I know it's a long shot but we'll see. I left feedback with AAPL to this effect.
Lower end? Are you joking? Apple does not make anything "lower end". The Macbook is at best midrange and it's features as well as it's price bear that out. If you think $1299 is lower end, you need to get out more.
He's obviously talking about the lower-end for Apple's notebooks. We all know you can buy an HP or Dell notebook for $400. And by your definition the most expensive 17" MBP isn't high-end either as there are plenty of notebooks that cost many more times its cost.
Comments
??? Pardon, I am not sure I can make any sense out of this... Apple is out of control designing their own notebooks? (Well, uh, whatever. In this case it does make sense to talk 15 minutes about torturing aluminum instead...)
Every single Apple user I know is using Firewire - and even if you only use it once to transfer your data and settings from the previous Mac... so the real figure should be closer to 100% than 2%. And performing this transfer over LAN/WiFi is not an equal option at all (unless you have nothing else to do in life).
Apple used to be about people who change the world and think different - that's INDIVIDUALS... they were better at that than at assuming what the majority might use. There is no financial or logical or engineering argument why you cannot put a FW port (or a small ExpressCard slot) into a laptop of that size (if I remember correctly they were doing just that until 3 days ago). It is just blackmailing users to buy the next bigger thing. I would happily pay them the price of the 15" MBP for a 13" MB with Firewire (even if this would be a complete rip off). As it stands all the marvel of Apple engineering can do today is create a 13.3" laptop that is more restricted than the 12" PowerBook several years ago. Fatigue?
I am not alluding everything else is the same, except for the lack of OS X the X200 beats the crap out of all MacBooks and MacBook Airs Apple has on offer and is quite a bit cheaper. The only thing it lacks is a nice aluminum shell. If Apple cannot build any decent machine being smaller than 15.4" and weighing 5 lbs - they should license their OS to somebody with this ability.
Those 12" Powerbooks.. great machine
Despite claims made here by some, that just doesn't work reliably with USB -- so please, just explain what we should do now?
Thank you.
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook? For years the only really solid, reliable and fast way to do that has been to connect a FW cable between Macs and restart while pressing the T key.
Despite claims made here by some, that just doesn't work reliably with USB -- so please, just explain what we should do now?
Thank you.
What do you mean it doesn't work RELIABLY with USB? It doesn't work AT ALL.
Copy over ethernet.
Or do what I do....use a 4GB USB key.
I am just saying the writing was on the wall for years now (3 years, to be exact). Give it another two years, I think you will agree with me.
Oh I agree with you. In my case hindsight is 20/20 here and I began to notice a couple of years ago that Apple really didn't have much Apple branded FW gear. I do agree that their interest in pushing it as a consumer interconnect waned years ago.
They will continue to focus on it within their Pro lineup and I bet we see FW 3.2Gbps in the Nehalem Mac Pros.
I believe that Mac fans have every right to complain but I don't see Apple capitulating here.
Correct...FW800 will indeed disappear by the time USB 3.0 comes out. Firewire 3200 will be shipping as the high end FW of choice then.
FW3200 should be out before USB3.0, and it uses the same port as FW800.Something interesting I found at Wikipedia (unconfirmed) about FW over RJ-45 (Ethernet)
??? Pardon, I am not sure I can make any sense out of this... Apple is out of control designing their own notebooks? (Well, uh, whatever. In this case it does make sense to talk 15 minutes about torturing aluminum instead...)
You can't that Apple "cannot", I was larking that the correct term is that they "won't", as they surely can do it they wanted to.
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook?
Do a Software Update. Migration Assistant has been updated (40MB) to work over WiFi, USB, and Ethernet.
the Pro model is there for your professional needs.
Show me a 13" MacBook Pro and I'll buy it immediately. The 15" model is not an option. Neither is the last model with it's pathetic excuse for a graphics card.
I wish Apple had standardized on FW800 for all their Macs, but I can accept that the lower end will only offer USB.
Lower end? Are you joking? Apple does not make anything "lower end". The Macbook is at best midrange and it's features as well as it's price bear that out. If you think $1299 is lower end, you need to get out more.
I am not alluding everything else is the same, except for the lack of OS X the X200 beats the crap out of all MacBooks and MacBook Airs Apple has on offer and is quite a bit cheaper. The only thing it lacks is a nice aluminum shell. If Apple cannot build any decent machine being smaller than 15.4" and weighing 5 lbs - they should license their OS to somebody with this ability.
The Lenovo X200 is configured so differently from the Macs its somewhat difficult to make a comparison. For $1099 it has a faster processor, but comes with 1GB of RAM, an 80GB HDD, no bluetooth, and Intel GMA X4500. Compared to the stock MacBook it lacks more than only the aluminum shell.
It has some pluses and minuses. Graphics being a big minus. To configure it more in line with the stock MacBook costs $1,402
I'm not sure how you figure this kills the MacBook.
Sorry man, I wont write something if it didn't happened to me, thats how I use to say things, thru personal experience. I have lost 3 USB 2.0 externals cause the drops and 2 internal HD's on the Mac itself. I gave USB 2.0 cases and standard a very good try for 2 years and didn't worked almost as flawless Firewire has been doing. The only disk I ever lost over a Firewire case was totally my fault cause I dropped the case from 4 feet high.
If it would happened once I would say it was random, but several times is not right
I did not mean to say you were making something up - if it did sound like that I do apologize. I just assume that the reasoning may be flawed, in a sense of confusing cause and effect. A system restore for sure does not fail because of a dropping data rate - that is technically impossible, I have restored systems through coupled dial-up connections using Ghost - no USB drive can be any slower. There must be a reason for the drop and the failure and it is not unlikely to be related to USB (e.g. if you have more than one USB device connected the bus may run out of power at some point, especially with external USB cases with poor controllers, even a malfunctioning mouse can bring down the entire bus), but still the drop in speed cannot cause the failure - the drop in speed is a symptom of the same failure.
Wow..you're really struggling with your argumentation aren't you?
I've articulated the technical reason why Firewire is suitable for audio applications over USB and the best you can do is launch ad hominem attacts and , blah blah blah
Don't even try being patronizing; I was already making music on my LC575 in the early 90s. I fully understand the benefits of FW over USB. What I am saying, and it's astonishing that I have to spell it out for you, is that if you absolutely need those benefits---this is different from *wanting,* do you understand?––then you are a pro. If you are NOT a pro, then you don't NEED it. Period.
Because if you did, then you would buy the MacBook Pro in a nanosecond, and not waste any of your precious creative hours on this board bitching about the lack of FW400 on the new MacBooks.
Now, why don't you go ahead and address the other, very valid point I make; why can't you settle for a white 2.4GHz MacBook that is pretty much on par, spec-wise, with the higher end new MacBook (since you won't be using that 9400M much when working in audio apps), that you can get for $600 cheaper? Which will not become obsolete for several years, at which point this will be a total non-issue??
You use Gigabit Ethernet, which I find to be very necessary for my home network.
Windows only and $86? Not an ideal soltuion by any means.
At that price you can get a pci-e 800 card or a $12-$20 pci-e card.
The cheapest MacBook that Apple sells with FW400 costs $999, and it's a fine machine that is tried and true.
Problem solved, spend $300 less for a MacBook with FW400.
or plan b efix for laptops when it comes out.
Look, I don't want to argue over this -- I'd just like some practical information: how -- specifically -- do I now transfer large files from my black MacBook to a new (non-FW) MacBook? For years the only really solid, reliable and fast way to do that has been to connect a FW cable between Macs and restart while pressing the T key.
Despite claims made here by some, that just doesn't work reliably with USB -- so please, just explain what we should do now?
Thank you.
Hi, You can hook'em up over a ethernet or a network and transfer the data you want. You can clone almost all your system to a new macbook but is kind of more work for somebody is not used too.
I can do clones of machines without the setup assistant over firewire but is a lot of copying.
So lets keep it simple, ethernet/network then transfer. Hope it helps a bit
Now, why don't you go ahead and address the other, very valid point I make; why can't you settle for a white 2.4GHz MacBook that is pretty much on par, spec-wise, with the higher end new MacBook (since you won't be using that 9400M much when working in audio apps), that you can get for $600 cheaper? Which will not become obsolete for several years, at which point this will be a total non-issue??
BTW, I've already spoken with two of my DJ/creator pals in Tokyo, and while they are both disappointed about the lack of FW in the new MacBooks, they understand the move, are not going bonkers over it, and one is already committing to buy a new MBP, and the other is contemplating snatching up the 2.4GHz black MacBook while supplies last. Really, that is the attitude some of you need.
It adds $10 to the machine.
Does it make sense to make everyone pay $10 extra?
In order to have their data salvageable when their Mac doesn't boot, yes, yes it does make sense.
It is the same as paying extra on your car for airbags when only a small percentage of us will ever get into a head-on accident. It's insurance against loss, provides peace of mind, and is just plain smart.
or plan b efix for laptops when it comes out.
EFiX is pretty cool, but the chip has to be tailored to each MoBo, which is going to be a tough battle. I think it's pretty cool tech and can't wait to see it splayed out. Unlike Psystar, I see no violation of Apple's patents or copyrights, just their EULA, which means nothing. So it looks like Apple's can only recourse is to out tech them with future versions of OS X.
Now, why don't you go ahead and address the other, very valid point I make; why can't you settle for a white 2.4GHz MacBook that is pretty much on par, spec-wise, with the higher end new MacBook (since you won't be using that 9400M much when working in audio apps), that you can get for $600 cheaper? Which will not become obsolete for several years, at which point this will be a total non-issue??
Hmmm! Interesting point.
'murch, he's got you on that one.
I did not mean to say you were making something up - if it did sound like that I do apologize. I just assume that the reasoning may be flawed, in a sense of confusing cause and effect. A system restore for sure does not fail because of a dropping data rate - that is technically impossible, I have restored systems through coupled dial-up connections using Ghost - no USB drive can be any slower. There must be a reason for the drop and the failure and it is not unlikely to be related to USB (e.g. if you have more than one USB device connected the bus may run out of power at some point, especially with external USB cases with poor controllers, even a malfunctioning mouse can bring down the entire bus), but still the drop in speed cannot cause the failure - the drop in speed is a symptom of the same failure.
Its ok man, not anyone had that bad luck with those USB 2.0 as me.
It is just it will make my work harder. Almost all those new switcher has no experience on Macs and they tend to complicate too much simple stuff. Since the macbook is the best selling computer.... that only means for me that I will service exponentially more of those and now I will have to create a new system to do it cause the old methods wont work.
I probably will end up paying for a script to automatize copy of data over the affected machine, that will make more easier to transfer data manually and clone the damaged comp more easier.
That leave me to conclude AAPL crippled the Macbook strictly for marketing purposes. In so doing they pissed off a lot of users (like me) who have taken AAPL's lead and invested heavily in Firewire. It's also unlike AAPL to downgrade to an inferior technology like USB in their new products. Remember, a CD-ROM was a step-up from a floppy drive -- not a step down!
I predict AAPL may reincorporate FW in the MB because in the past AAPL has admitted and remedied former missteps. The $600 iPhone, for example. I know it's a long shot but we'll see. I left feedback with AAPL to this effect.
Lower end? Are you joking? Apple does not make anything "lower end". The Macbook is at best midrange and it's features as well as it's price bear that out. If you think $1299 is lower end, you need to get out more.
He's obviously talking about the lower-end for Apple's notebooks. We all know you can buy an HP or Dell notebook for $400. And by your definition the most expensive 17" MBP isn't high-end either as there are plenty of notebooks that cost many more times its cost.
What do you mean it doesn't work RELIABLY with USB? It doesn't work AT ALL.
And that's the huge question nobody seems to know the answer to:
Why has Apple not created a USB Target Disk Mode to replace Firewire Target Disk Mode?
It should be technically possible.