Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac.
The gap is so wide it's almost unbelievable!
You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.
The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.
You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.
The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.
Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
Do you honestly think that the average consumer will use a "4-In/10-Out FireWire Mobile Recording Interface" that costs $400? No, I didn't think so. If one does wish to use that device with a new Mac, there are MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Mac minis, iMacs and Mac Pros that have FireWire. That is the entire Mac line, except for the MBA. That may not be pro level, but it's certainly a prosumer peripheral.
That is a perfect example of what I've mentioned a couple of time on the last few pages.
Why do people feel the urge to play with comments. I said it wasn't a 'pro' machine. It's not a 'pro' machine.
Why do you qualify the word consumer with the word 'average' in bold?
This machine is perfect for a group of enthusiasts and many will find the unit for less than $400. Even it was $400 where is the problem? Imagine a band (teenagers) who could buy this device for the group at $100 each or less.
Remember: 'not pro'.
BTW, the reason I wrote 'pro' like that was because nowadays consumer equipment is often used by pros. In fact it's part of my reasoning for not eliminating FW from the new MBs.
— A person who purchases goods and services for personal use.
It's interesting that you neglected to include the full entry for 'consumer' which included the following (my bold):
Quote:
a person or thing that eats or uses something : Scandinavians are the largest consumers of rye.
And if we move over to the term 'consumer goods' we get (once again, my bold):
Quote:
consumer goods
plural noun
goods bought and used by consumers, rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods. Often contrasted with capital goods .
No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.
It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:
Quote:
'but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right'.
And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.
It's interesting that you neglected to include the full entry for 'consumer' which included the following (my bold):
And if we move over to the term 'consumer goods' we get (once again, my bold):
No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.
It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:
And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.
It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:
And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.
agreed
"consumer" as a technical definition neither defines what level of income nor what level of product they purchase
(ie low budget consumer can purchase professional level goods & services
and a professional consumer can purchase low budget goods & services - some of the smarter ones do)
however, in common parlance i guess most people use the words
"consumer" for the amateur or family market
"professional" for the business market
"prosumer" for the enthusiast/hobbyist willing to spend lots - but not necessarily earning much from their purchase
IMO the "prosumer" is the type most likely to purchase the MB given the price & specs
also, wrt previous posts i think it's ridiculous to think that people buying apple products are limited to $500 peripherals
just look at the explosion of the DSLR market
(yes DLSRs don't need firewire i'm using this as an example to show that people are willing to spend lots on peripherals)
and the cheapest of those is above $500, ranging up to the D700 / 5DMkII at ~$3000 (which has been mentioned with enthusisam on this thread)
most bands (who are actually going to record themselves) have instruments around the $1000+ mark
so spending $500 on an audio interface is seen as normal (cheap in fact)
plus there are a few firewire interfaces which will record a full band under $500
anyone who argues that MB consumers don't purchase peripherals > $500
is effectively saying that removing firewire apple are limiting themselves to the very low consumer market
and excluding the prosumer / professional market
which (as stated before) puts them squarely in competition with Dell & similar
...not a particularly good thing for apple given the price
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
you are simply trying to justify your puchase of a MB
and attacking others because of it
it's been noted a number of times out known that FW is neither outdated nor old tech
as pointed out by the fact that
- it's the only tech on high end video cameras & audio interfaces
- there is no replacement for USB2
- there is no other fast(er) mobile powered connection tech on the market
- it's the only tech on high end video cameras & audio interfaces
Operative words: high end.
Quote:
- there is no replacement for USB2
USB3.0 is the replacement for USB2.0
Quote:
- there is no other fast(er) mobile powered connection tech on the market
And becasue of that Apple is required to keep FW400 in their entire MB line, despite it being available in the low-end MB, and the MBPs have FW800. The writing is on the wall.
From that link, "Also, most pro and semi-pro cameras continue to use FireWire". That doesn't mention consumer-grade peripherals. If you haven't realized, Apple is marketing the MB to the average consumer. That link also talks about DV cameras, which are a dying breed, and that 20% you mention, which they state as 17-20% is not about peripherals or PCs, but about set top boxes. Besides that, Apple has removed FW800 from the MBP, which is marketed a prosumer and professional machine. FW400 as a port interface is a dead end, you will accept this sooner or later.
Quote:
- the currently best rated consumer video cameras rely on FW
How many of the best selling HD camcorders on Amazon have FW as their main output source?
you don't have to agree with that - but simply stating that you think FW is outdated doesn't make it so
Facts and logic make it so. I never stated that FW is dead, I stated that FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. I also stated that this may not have happened if Apple had had the foresight to use the same port interface for FW400 as it uses for FW800-3200. I also stated that the new design of the unibody MB and MBPs do not allow for the same number of ports to be present, and that the low man on the totem pole is FW400, for the reasons stated above.
Quote:
just accept the fact that you purchased an expensive non-expandable MB
which will have a lower value than either the previous and replacement models (when they come out) because the previous will have FW and the replacement will have FW, USB3 or both
Perhaps you should accept that I bought my a unibody MB knowing full well the specs. Perhaps you should also accept that most people don't need FW and a great many buying MBs have never used or even heard of FW. As for the lowered value of the MB, that is no concern to me as I will be giving my machine away in two cycles time to buy a new one, as I always do.
Quote:
i've just accepted that i'll have to wait (with my dying blackbook)
until the replacements are out
Dying? if it's going bad then buy a $999 MB or a refurbished black MB. This woos me, sky is falling attitude about 2 of 3 MB models not having FW400 is such incredible whining. Apple is YOUR company. If they offer a product you like/want/need, then buy it. If they don't, then don't buy it, but whining about it on a forum makes no sense. Perhaps you should rework your posts into emails to Steve Jobs. They will potentially serve a much better purpose to get FW back into the MB. BTW, where will they put it. I see no place to put it that doesn't involve reducing the battery size (which also had to shrink to make the new unibody Mac notebooks) so ports can be placed on the other side of the Kensington lock or by removing a USB port, but since USB is considerably more useful to almost everyone but a few posters on this forum, I don't see Apple removing it in favour of adding FW. Perhaps they can push the ports together in some places, but I've checked these new unibody machines against other machines and these are already pushed together as close as they can.[/QUOTE]
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
I'll let others decide if I'm being obtuse.
Quote:
Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours
I hope you don't find this comment obtuse but as I've stated innumerable times throughout this thread Apple has not publicly stated what it's goals are with regards to firewire (and ironically, where they have stated goals on other issues - 'and now for the other 95%' - they've failed to even put machines onto the market to achieve them) so you simply cannot support your claim.
If they miraculously put FW back onto the next version of the MacBook what will you say then? That Apple's goals are suddenly congruent to mine? That Apple simply changes its strategy depending on what side SJ got out of the bed on? That your affirmation was wrong?
USB3 doesn't exist yet - not til the end of 2009 at the earliest - you understand that right?
Quote:
And becasue of that Apple is required to keep FW400 in their entire MB line, despite it being available in the low-end MB, and the MBPs have FW800. The writing is on the wall.
no one on this thread has ever said that FW400 is required - just FW...
FW800+ on a MB would be great!
Quote:
Besides that, Apple has removed FW800 from the MBP, which is marketed a prosumer and professional machine. FW400 as a port interface is a dead end, you will accept this sooner or later.
i presume you mean fw400 has been removed
again if they replace fw400 ports with fw800
you won't hear anyone complaining... i agree
to remove is another thing entirely
Quote:
Facts and logic make it so.
make what so? - you said that firewire was outdated technology now (below) you limit that to fw400
Quote:
I never stated that FW is dead, I stated that FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. I also stated that this may not have happened if Apple had had the foresight to use the same port interface for FW400 as it uses for FW800-3200. I also stated that the new design of the unibody MB and MBPs do not allow for the same number of ports to be present, and that the low man on the totem pole is FW400, for the reasons stated above.
so if it's only fw400 which is "obsolescent" then why not fw800
Quote:
Dying? if it's going bad then buy a $999 MB or a refurbished black MB. This woos me, sky is falling attitude about 2 of 3 MB models not having FW400 is such incredible whining. Apple is YOUR company. If they offer a product you like/want/need, then buy it. If they don't, then don't buy it, but whining about it on a forum makes no sense. Perhaps you should rework your posts into emails to Steve Jobs. They will potentially serve a much better purpose to get FW back into the MB. BTW, where will they put it. I see no place to put it that doesn't involve reducing the battery size (which also had to shrink to make the new unibody Mac notebooks) so ports can be placed on the other side of the Kensington lock or by removing a USB port, but since USB is considerably more useful to almost everyone but a few posters on this forum, I don't see Apple removing it in favour of adding FW. Perhaps they can push the ports together in some places, but I've checked these new unibody machines against other machines and these are already pushed together as close as they can.
the space issue has been debunked a number of times
if you think they're limited on space just have a look at some netbooks
if apple can't fit an small extra port on a 13" notebook they are really struggling...
ok if you're happy fine - excellent - but then why are you here?
we're here to discuss the merits of FW and see if there's something we've missed
it's been an excellent and informative thread - i've learnt loads
if you're convinced that your decision is right (and for your needs perhaps the MB is perfect) then...
ps there's no "woe is me" attitude here - accusing people of that is more a whine in itself
so if it's only fw400 which is "obsolescent" then why not fw800
This is probably why you and Avon keep holding onto your positions so strongly. FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. Gb ethernet trumps it in speed, USB2.0 is pretty equivalent speed and USB3.0 will trump it in speed. FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.
Since Apple has never had FW800 on the MB, it seems strange to expect it now, though I wouldn't be surprised if the technology does gain some traction with peripheral support, which seems unlikely with the ubiquity and progression of USB. I really don't understand why you expect FW400 peripherals to grow in numbers and why you expect the vast majority of non-professionals (aka consumers) to adopt this technology with a dead-end port interface that was designed only for 400Mbps, when the time for FW400 adoption was back when it competed with USB1.0.
While FW will be around for years to come in the 9-pin variety, I think they missed their window again by letting USB3.0 get so close to a reality. The high-end, professional-grade equipment will still support 9-pin FW in the future, but it's not likely that it'll ever be a popular option over USB3.0 for the average consumer.
Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
That won't happen unless you want a 4" thick iMac. Neither the x58 chipeset or the 900 series core i7s are made for anything remotely small form factor. The iMac won't be getting Core i7 for about another year and it'll be the mobile version.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
You're right they're not average consumers, that's why they came to the Mac in the first place. The Mac once stood for an above average computer that met the requirements for the content creation crowd. Now apparently its the platform of choice for trendy teenagers and those who can't see past Apple's product branding. Please come with an argument other that "Well, Apple said..." because the Jobs regime doesn't have a lot of credibility right. Try doing research for once instead of automatically believing what what comes out of Cupertino. Jobs' best skill is playing to those who are easily duped.
the space issue has been debunked a number of times
if you think they're limited on space just have a look at some netbooks
if apple can't fit an small extra port on a 13" notebook they are really struggling...
I don't think the space issue has been duped. There is no way to fit the firewire port on the machine. Its also why they went to mini-display port. Using the (already small) regular display port on the Macbooks would have likely meant loosing one of the USB ports as well. Using the effectively proprietary connector (try me, nobody else is going to use it, just like Mini-VGA and Mini-DVI) also gives Apple a measure of added control.
This isn't a matter of engineering, as it is a question of design. The Macbook already had easy access to the drive. Apple simply decided that it was worth giving up that firewire as well as battery life and easy access to the memory to make it .95in thin. Apple isn't a computer company any more. They're a design company who happens to fit in a computer,,,if there's room.
Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).
As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
Thanks, I always shorthand that and get it wrong because my brain is so very small and slow these days (especially when I'm directing, and what little brain function I have is focused on the film). The sound guy doesn't care at all what we the people think. He has his own custom puppy and nyahny-nyahny-nyahny. Also, this is the first time I'm experimenting with high-resolution video rather than film, and I don't even want to get into the coolness of what those cameras do. But again, firewire not necessary (not that that is relevant to this conversation). But it is a drag that the actors want to see every single dang take on the monitor instead of trusting me (a bad habit many actors have developed since modern video playback during a shoot came in). But I fixed that by hiding the monitors from them and telling them that I'd light them badly if they complained (the 2nd greatest threat you can make to an actor).
Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).
As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
Thanks for taking the time to read but I cannot see very much at all from the 'pro firewire camp' that can be described as 'silly'. Your 'I want it, therefore I am the majority' claim could not be further from the truth.
Given that in this particular thread you have everything sitting on the table, perhaps you could enlighten the pro firewire camp with something substantial to support your claims.
This is the place where people who want Apple to support Firewire can have their say. Most of what I've read from the 'pro' camp has been very level headed but of course, as I'm in that camp please feel free to show me where that is not the case.
As for reporters, well there's not much that can de done. Many pages back you will have read that Mr. Pogue himself spoke Mr. Jobs with a very poor outcome.
One of my complaints has been that Apple has not only failed to keep its users abreast of developments but that it has also failed to keep its developers up to spec to where firewire stands in Apple's plans.
Thanks for taking the time to read but I cannot see very much at all from the 'pro firewire camp' that can be described as 'silly'. Your 'I want it, therefore I am the majority' claim could not be further from the truth. It's the other side
Given that in this particular thread you have everything sitting on the table, perhaps you could enlighten the pro firewire camp with something substantial to support your claims.
This is the place where people who want Apple to support Firewire can have their say. Most of what I've read from the 'pro' camp has been very level headed but of course, as I'm in that camp please feel free to show me where that is not the case.
As for reporters, well there's not much that can de done. Many pages back you will have read that Mr. Pogue himself spoke Mr. Jobs with a very poor outcome.
One of my complaints has been that Apple has not only failed to keep its users abreast of developments but that it has also failed to keep its developers up to spec to where firewire stands in Apple's plans.
Maybe "silly" was too strong a word, but it seems that with only one model losing the firewire, nothing is really "finished" yet, so a lot of this (as with other discussions), the extreme passions seem over-the-top. As I said, I can see both sides, though, except for my 9-year-old son's firewire DV vidcam, I have no real need for firewire anymore, so it's not really important to me. [I gave anecdotal evidence because someone really thought their 5 friends not buying meant something.]
Mr. Pogue didn't do much digging (my biggest complaint for most tech reporters, who just seem to parrot the PR firms and "guess" from reading online sources like this AI). I mean someone actually getting in and finding some confirm-able sources and actually getting to the truth. I was thinking that 500 emails sent to a good tech reporter would get him off his arse and asking his editor for him to actually do some reporting on the matter.
To me, Apple's always been like Ferrari (I loved my various Ferrari's), where pound-for-pound in the specs you could find things that might out-brake 'em, or out-run 'em, and certainly those things that were cheaper, but nobody could out-sexy/out-drive 'em. And those that don't/won't/can't get Ferrari's (as I've always said, one Ferrari equals one child), are either envious or try to rationalize. I see a lot of that in Apple.
I agree that they aren't forthcoming with info, but that's their way. Will enough ruckus get them to put firewire back? Doesn't take much to try. I don't think they will, but, as I said, doesn't really matter to me. I do think that in a couple of years this will be of no importance; and for now, there are other options. If Apple had taken all firewire off of all of their models, not only would that be a surer sign, but it would strand more people.
There is plenty of room for DVI and firewire ports on the MacBook. The reason it appears that that isn't the case is that those ports were never in the design at the planning stage. One could even add an Express Card slot to the current MacBook form factor but these inclusions would have to be present from conception.
I'm not an industrial designer so I don't know how much engineering knowledge they have but my guess is that very little design work is carried out without engineering teams at very close quarters.
FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.
That's a very twisted argument. How many port interfaces does USB have? The last I looked at a USB printer cable it didn't have the same port on both ends? The last time I connected a digital still camera it didn't have the same port on both ends.
Is a firewire cable with a 9 pin port on one end and a 4 or 6 pin port on the other end really that different?
However, I have read somewhere that USB 3.0 cable may have to hide a USB 2.0 inside it upping the cost of fabrication. If that turns out to be true what will you say?
Comments
Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac.
The gap is so wide it's almost unbelievable!
You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.
The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.
You don't necessarily gain much performance from a quad core machine at this point. Because most applications are not designed for four cores. In most situations the duo 2.8Ghz. will be faster than a quad 2.4Ghz.
The iMac has not been refreshed since April. Dell could leap frog the Mac when it comes to the end of its refresh cycle. Apple will against leap frog in performance for cost when the iMac has its next refresh which will likely be at MW '09.
Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
Do you honestly think that the average consumer will use a "4-In/10-Out FireWire Mobile Recording Interface" that costs $400? No, I didn't think so. If one does wish to use that device with a new Mac, there are MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Mac minis, iMacs and Mac Pros that have FireWire. That is the entire Mac line, except for the MBA. That may not be pro level, but it's certainly a prosumer peripheral.
That is a perfect example of what I've mentioned a couple of time on the last few pages.
Why do people feel the urge to play with comments. I said it wasn't a 'pro' machine. It's not a 'pro' machine.
Why do you qualify the word consumer with the word 'average' in bold?
This machine is perfect for a group of enthusiasts and many will find the unit for less than $400. Even it was $400 where is the problem? Imagine a band (teenagers) who could buy this device for the group at $100 each or less.
Remember: 'not pro'.
BTW, the reason I wrote 'pro' like that was because nowadays consumer equipment is often used by pros. In fact it's part of my reasoning for not eliminating FW from the new MBs.
Why not just use the dictionary definition:
It's interesting that you neglected to include the full entry for 'consumer' which included the following (my bold):
a person or thing that eats or uses something : Scandinavians are the largest consumers of rye.
And if we move over to the term 'consumer goods' we get (once again, my bold):
consumer goods
plural noun
goods bought and used by consumers, rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods. Often contrasted with capital goods .
No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.
It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:
'but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right'.
And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.
It's interesting that you neglected to include the full entry for 'consumer' which included the following (my bold):
And if we move over to the term 'consumer goods' we get (once again, my bold):
No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.
It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:
And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
No mention of professional in either 'consumer' or 'consumer goods' but perhaps it's worthy of note that when the dictionary entry contrasted consumer goods it stated 'rather than by manufacturers for producing other goods'.
It is accepted by all that professionals also use consumer goods for professional use something which, in line with the above definitions, makes professionals 'consumers' and is what probably led the original poster to say:
And let me make it clear that I'm not the one nit-picking here.
agreed
"consumer" as a technical definition neither defines what level of income nor what level of product they purchase
(ie low budget consumer can purchase professional level goods & services
and a professional consumer can purchase low budget goods & services - some of the smarter ones do)
however, in common parlance i guess most people use the words
"consumer" for the amateur or family market
"professional" for the business market
"prosumer" for the enthusiast/hobbyist willing to spend lots - but not necessarily earning much from their purchase
IMO the "prosumer" is the type most likely to purchase the MB given the price & specs
also, wrt previous posts i think it's ridiculous to think that people buying apple products are limited to $500 peripherals
just look at the explosion of the DSLR market
(yes DLSRs don't need firewire i'm using this as an example to show that people are willing to spend lots on peripherals)
and the cheapest of those is above $500, ranging up to the D700 / 5DMkII at ~$3000 (which has been mentioned with enthusisam on this thread)
most bands (who are actually going to record themselves) have instruments around the $1000+ mark
so spending $500 on an audio interface is seen as normal (cheap in fact)
plus there are a few firewire interfaces which will record a full band under $500
anyone who argues that MB consumers don't purchase peripherals > $500
is effectively saying that removing firewire apple are limiting themselves to the very low consumer market
and excluding the prosumer / professional market
which (as stated before) puts them squarely in competition with Dell & similar
...not a particularly good thing for apple given the price
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
you are simply trying to justify your puchase of a MB
and attacking others because of it
it's been noted a number of times out known that FW is neither outdated nor old tech
as pointed out by the fact that
- it's the only tech on high end video cameras & audio interfaces
- there is no replacement for USB2
- there is no other fast(er) mobile powered connection tech on the market
- use of FW is increasing on notebooks (not decreasing) - by 20% in 2008
- the currently best rated consumer video cameras rely on FW
you don't have to agree with that - but simply stating that you think FW is outdated doesn't make it so
just accept the fact that you purchased an expensive non-expandable MB
which will have a lower value than either the previous and replacement models (when they come out)
because the previous will have FW and the replacement will have FW, USB3 or both
i've just accepted that i'll have to wait (with my dying blackbook)
until the replacements are out
and this statement of yours
IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price
which i agree with - shows the product line for exactly what it is
one with a hole in the middle... the hole being the current MB
more expensive than the cheaper model, but without the connectivity options (and therefore usefulness to all markets)
odd
- it's the only tech on high end video cameras & audio interfaces
Operative words: high end.
- there is no replacement for USB2
USB3.0 is the replacement for USB2.0
- there is no other fast(er) mobile powered connection tech on the market
And becasue of that Apple is required to keep FW400 in their entire MB line, despite it being available in the low-end MB, and the MBPs have FW800. The writing is on the wall.
- use of FW is increasing on notebooks (not decreasing) - by 20% in 2008
From that link, "Also, most pro and semi-pro cameras continue to use FireWire". That doesn't mention consumer-grade peripherals. If you haven't realized, Apple is marketing the MB to the average consumer. That link also talks about DV cameras, which are a dying breed, and that 20% you mention, which they state as 17-20% is not about peripherals or PCs, but about set top boxes. Besides that, Apple has removed FW800 from the MBP, which is marketed a prosumer and professional machine. FW400 as a port interface is a dead end, you will accept this sooner or later.
- the currently best rated consumer video cameras rely on FW
How many of the best selling HD camcorders on Amazon have FW as their main output source?
you don't have to agree with that - but simply stating that you think FW is outdated doesn't make it so
Facts and logic make it so. I never stated that FW is dead, I stated that FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. I also stated that this may not have happened if Apple had had the foresight to use the same port interface for FW400 as it uses for FW800-3200. I also stated that the new design of the unibody MB and MBPs do not allow for the same number of ports to be present, and that the low man on the totem pole is FW400, for the reasons stated above.
just accept the fact that you purchased an expensive non-expandable MB
which will have a lower value than either the previous and replacement models (when they come out) because the previous will have FW and the replacement will have FW, USB3 or both
Perhaps you should accept that I bought my a unibody MB knowing full well the specs. Perhaps you should also accept that most people don't need FW and a great many buying MBs have never used or even heard of FW. As for the lowered value of the MB, that is no concern to me as I will be giving my machine away in two cycles time to buy a new one, as I always do.
i've just accepted that i'll have to wait (with my dying blackbook)
until the replacements are out
Dying? if it's going bad then buy a $999 MB or a refurbished black MB. This woos me, sky is falling attitude about 2 of 3 MB models not having FW400 is such incredible whining. Apple is YOUR company. If they offer a product you like/want/need, then buy it. If they don't, then don't buy it, but whining about it on a forum makes no sense. Perhaps you should rework your posts into emails to Steve Jobs. They will potentially serve a much better purpose to get FW back into the MB. BTW, where will they put it. I see no place to put it that doesn't involve reducing the battery size (which also had to shrink to make the new unibody Mac notebooks) so ports can be placed on the other side of the Kensington lock or by removing a USB port, but since USB is considerably more useful to almost everyone but a few posters on this forum, I don't see Apple removing it in favour of adding FW. Perhaps they can push the ports together in some places, but I've checked these new unibody machines against other machines and these are already pushed together as close as they can.[/QUOTE]
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
I'll let others decide if I'm being obtuse.
Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours
I hope you don't find this comment obtuse but as I've stated innumerable times throughout this thread Apple has not publicly stated what it's goals are with regards to firewire (and ironically, where they have stated goals on other issues - 'and now for the other 95%' - they've failed to even put machines onto the market to achieve them) so you simply cannot support your claim.
If they miraculously put FW back onto the next version of the MacBook what will you say then? That Apple's goals are suddenly congruent to mine? That Apple simply changes its strategy depending on what side SJ got out of the bed on? That your affirmation was wrong?
Operative words: high end.
proving that fw is not "outdated tech"
USB3.0 is the replacement for USB2.0
USB3 doesn't exist yet - not til the end of 2009 at the earliest - you understand that right?
And becasue of that Apple is required to keep FW400 in their entire MB line, despite it being available in the low-end MB, and the MBPs have FW800. The writing is on the wall.
no one on this thread has ever said that FW400 is required - just FW...
FW800+ on a MB would be great!
Besides that, Apple has removed FW800 from the MBP, which is marketed a prosumer and professional machine. FW400 as a port interface is a dead end, you will accept this sooner or later.
i presume you mean fw400 has been removed
again if they replace fw400 ports with fw800
you won't hear anyone complaining... i agree
to remove is another thing entirely
Facts and logic make it so.
make what so? - you said that firewire was outdated technology now (below) you limit that to fw400
I never stated that FW is dead, I stated that FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. I also stated that this may not have happened if Apple had had the foresight to use the same port interface for FW400 as it uses for FW800-3200. I also stated that the new design of the unibody MB and MBPs do not allow for the same number of ports to be present, and that the low man on the totem pole is FW400, for the reasons stated above.
so if it's only fw400 which is "obsolescent" then why not fw800
Dying? if it's going bad then buy a $999 MB or a refurbished black MB. This woos me, sky is falling attitude about 2 of 3 MB models not having FW400 is such incredible whining. Apple is YOUR company. If they offer a product you like/want/need, then buy it. If they don't, then don't buy it, but whining about it on a forum makes no sense. Perhaps you should rework your posts into emails to Steve Jobs. They will potentially serve a much better purpose to get FW back into the MB. BTW, where will they put it. I see no place to put it that doesn't involve reducing the battery size (which also had to shrink to make the new unibody Mac notebooks) so ports can be placed on the other side of the Kensington lock or by removing a USB port, but since USB is considerably more useful to almost everyone but a few posters on this forum, I don't see Apple removing it in favour of adding FW. Perhaps they can push the ports together in some places, but I've checked these new unibody machines against other machines and these are already pushed together as close as they can.
the space issue has been debunked a number of times
if you think they're limited on space just have a look at some netbooks
if apple can't fit an small extra port on a 13" notebook they are really struggling...
ok if you're happy fine - excellent - but then why are you here?
we're here to discuss the merits of FW and see if there's something we've missed
it's been an excellent and informative thread - i've learnt loads
if you're convinced that your decision is right (and for your needs perhaps the MB is perfect) then...
ps there's no "woe is me" attitude here - accusing people of that is more a whine in itself
so if it's only fw400 which is "obsolescent" then why not fw800
This is probably why you and Avon keep holding onto your positions so strongly. FW400 is an obsolescing port interface. Gb ethernet trumps it in speed, USB2.0 is pretty equivalent speed and USB3.0 will trump it in speed. FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.
Since Apple has never had FW800 on the MB, it seems strange to expect it now, though I wouldn't be surprised if the technology does gain some traction with peripheral support, which seems unlikely with the ubiquity and progression of USB. I really don't understand why you expect FW400 peripherals to grow in numbers and why you expect the vast majority of non-professionals (aka consumers) to adopt this technology with a dead-end port interface that was designed only for 400Mbps, when the time for FW400 adoption was back when it competed with USB1.0.
While FW will be around for years to come in the 9-pin variety, I think they missed their window again by letting USB3.0 get so close to a reality. The high-end, professional-grade equipment will still support 9-pin FW in the future, but it's not likely that it'll ever be a popular option over USB3.0 for the average consumer.
Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
That won't happen unless you want a 4" thick iMac. Neither the x58 chipeset or the 900 series core i7s are made for anything remotely small form factor. The iMac won't be getting Core i7 for about another year and it'll be the mobile version.
Don't be obtuse! If it's for personal use then it's for the consumer, if it's to generate profit then it's for professional use. Are their people buying professional-grade equipment for personal use and vice versa? Of course, but these account for a very small segment and don't account for the average buyer. That is an even smaller segment than the very few consumers that bitch about the loss of FireWire. The point still remains that if you need FireWire every single class of Apple's Mac line, sans the MBA, has FireWire.
You keep making your desires that of the majority. They are not. Whether you like it or not, you have to accept that Apple's goals are not congruent with yours. IF you want FireWire in a Mac notebook you have to buy the cheap MB or the MBP at double the price, if you want a new Mac. If it bothers you that every single item offered by Apple is not ideally tailored to your uncommon, outdated needs then move to a generic PC, which will continue to offer outdated tech long after the ship has sailed.
You're right they're not average consumers, that's why they came to the Mac in the first place. The Mac once stood for an above average computer that met the requirements for the content creation crowd. Now apparently its the platform of choice for trendy teenagers and those who can't see past Apple's product branding. Please come with an argument other that "Well, Apple said..." because the Jobs regime doesn't have a lot of credibility right. Try doing research for once instead of automatically believing what what comes out of Cupertino. Jobs' best skill is playing to those who are easily duped.
the space issue has been debunked a number of times
if you think they're limited on space just have a look at some netbooks
if apple can't fit an small extra port on a 13" notebook they are really struggling...
I don't think the space issue has been duped. There is no way to fit the firewire port on the machine. Its also why they went to mini-display port. Using the (already small) regular display port on the Macbooks would have likely meant loosing one of the USB ports as well. Using the effectively proprietary connector (try me, nobody else is going to use it, just like Mini-VGA and Mini-DVI) also gives Apple a measure of added control.
This isn't a matter of engineering, as it is a question of design. The Macbook already had easy access to the drive. Apple simply decided that it was worth giving up that firewire as well as battery life and easy access to the memory to make it .95in thin. Apple isn't a computer company any more. They're a design company who happens to fit in a computer,,,if there's room.
As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
Sorry? He could care less, or couldn't care less?
Sorry? He could care less, or couldn't care less?
Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).
As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
Thanks for taking the time to read but I cannot see very much at all from the 'pro firewire camp' that can be described as 'silly'. Your 'I want it, therefore I am the majority' claim could not be further from the truth.
Given that in this particular thread you have everything sitting on the table, perhaps you could enlighten the pro firewire camp with something substantial to support your claims.
This is the place where people who want Apple to support Firewire can have their say. Most of what I've read from the 'pro' camp has been very level headed but of course, as I'm in that camp please feel free to show me where that is not the case.
As for reporters, well there's not much that can de done. Many pages back you will have read that Mr. Pogue himself spoke Mr. Jobs with a very poor outcome.
One of my complaints has been that Apple has not only failed to keep its users abreast of developments but that it has also failed to keep its developers up to spec to where firewire stands in Apple's plans.
Thanks for taking the time to read but I cannot see very much at all from the 'pro firewire camp' that can be described as 'silly'. Your 'I want it, therefore I am the majority' claim could not be further from the truth. It's the other side
Given that in this particular thread you have everything sitting on the table, perhaps you could enlighten the pro firewire camp with something substantial to support your claims.
This is the place where people who want Apple to support Firewire can have their say. Most of what I've read from the 'pro' camp has been very level headed but of course, as I'm in that camp please feel free to show me where that is not the case.
As for reporters, well there's not much that can de done. Many pages back you will have read that Mr. Pogue himself spoke Mr. Jobs with a very poor outcome.
One of my complaints has been that Apple has not only failed to keep its users abreast of developments but that it has also failed to keep its developers up to spec to where firewire stands in Apple's plans.
Maybe "silly" was too strong a word, but it seems that with only one model losing the firewire, nothing is really "finished" yet, so a lot of this (as with other discussions), the extreme passions seem over-the-top. As I said, I can see both sides, though, except for my 9-year-old son's firewire DV vidcam, I have no real need for firewire anymore, so it's not really important to me. [I gave anecdotal evidence because someone really thought their 5 friends not buying meant something.]
Mr. Pogue didn't do much digging (my biggest complaint for most tech reporters, who just seem to parrot the PR firms and "guess" from reading online sources like this AI). I mean someone actually getting in and finding some confirm-able sources and actually getting to the truth. I was thinking that 500 emails sent to a good tech reporter would get him off his arse and asking his editor for him to actually do some reporting on the matter.
To me, Apple's always been like Ferrari (I loved my various Ferrari's), where pound-for-pound in the specs you could find things that might out-brake 'em, or out-run 'em, and certainly those things that were cheaper, but nobody could out-sexy/out-drive 'em. And those that don't/won't/can't get Ferrari's (as I've always said, one Ferrari equals one child), are either envious or try to rationalize. I see a lot of that in Apple.
I agree that they aren't forthcoming with info, but that's their way. Will enough ruckus get them to put firewire back? Doesn't take much to try. I don't think they will, but, as I said, doesn't really matter to me. I do think that in a couple of years this will be of no importance; and for now, there are other options. If Apple had taken all firewire off of all of their models, not only would that be a surer sign, but it would strand more people.
I'm not an industrial designer so I don't know how much engineering knowledge they have but my guess is that very little design work is carried out without engineering teams at very close quarters.
FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.
That's a very twisted argument. How many port interfaces does USB have? The last I looked at a USB printer cable it didn't have the same port on both ends? The last time I connected a digital still camera it didn't have the same port on both ends.
Is a firewire cable with a 9 pin port on one end and a 4 or 6 pin port on the other end really that different?
However, I have read somewhere that USB 3.0 cable may have to hide a USB 2.0 inside it upping the cost of fabrication. If that turns out to be true what will you say?