- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.
Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals. \
Quote:
Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.
All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
To what end? Again, you're under the assumption that they can handle faster than 28% growth. I think that Apple is already at risk of losing some of that end user experience at this growth rate.
What exactly is the end user experience? The one where half baked system updates render systems unbootable? The one where they release half-baked major OS updates? The one where they rush product designs out the door and have nasty condensation issues? The one where they completely replace a video port with something that contains copy protection technology that stops users viewing legally owned video content on their TVs? The one where they sell a device at a premium price and reduce it just weeks later? etc. And how about Apple's pièce de résistance on user experience: Mobile Me.
Apple can handle an increase in users up to the maximum capacity of its production.
Quote:
Except that Apple does not care. Over and over in quarterly conferences analysts ask if apple is going to reduce margins to capture share and over and over they say no.
They do? It's been a while since I listened to an entire call but I don't remember that question coming up too often.
Quote:
Then why bother? What is the payoff for increased sales at lower margins if you have to work harder to make about the same amount of profit at the end of the day? Their current strategy has both growth and higher profits.
How about to eat away at your competitors market share? To hit your competitors where it hurts, in their finances. To increase secundary income gains. To persuade more people that the mac platform is worth supporting.
Quote:
You can make the case that in the current economic conditions that Apple should lower margins to maintain growth but I suspect that so long as Apple growth is above the industry average (or decline smaller than the industry average) they will stay their current course. And for good reason. Porsche or Ferrari or Viking or Jenn Air does not lower it's price during a downturn. They simply expect to sell fewer cars/stoves/refigerators until the rebound with the understanding that affluent people don't tend to buy Kenmores or a Kia but simply defer a purchase until later. What they don't want to do is dilute their branding because that takes forever to build.
A flawed analogy. So flawed that I won't even begin to take it apart.
The MacBook is a consumer notebook but it does not compete in the low end of the market. To meet the MacBook specifications and performance a PC will cost more than $500.
- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.
- Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.
PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?
Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.
Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals.
Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.
At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.
Quote:
All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?
I don't think these are analogous to glossy vs matte.
Quote:
Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.
Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.
At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.
Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?
Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.
Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?
Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.
What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.
Quote:
Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.
Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.
Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.
What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.
Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.
you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)
there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)
the vast majority of audio interfaces are FW with quite a number of audio interfaces around $500
this has all been pointed out before (hence why i feel no need to support my vast majority claim a 2nd time around)
...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate
Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning.
The word 'no' is a pretty specific one. If you're going to use it in the context that you used it in then, yes, it would have been better to be clearer from the outset.
However, I must admit that I normally enter into the 'spirit of use' for comments where I think that has to be taken into account.
Do you honestly think that the average consumer will use a "4-In/10-Out FireWire Mobile Recording Interface" that costs $400? No, I didn't think so. If one does wish to use that device with a new Mac, there are MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Mac minis, iMacs and Mac Pros that have FireWire. That is the entire Mac line, except for the MBA. That may not be pro level, but it's certainly a prosumer peripheral.
you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)
there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
If there are plenty then why did you post only one from nearly a year ago. One that has almost falling 50% in price in that time. How many camcorders are out there and yet only a couple have FW in the consumer market. Are DV cameras by any stretch the most popular cameras being developed or sold today? The evidence points to no. What state will miniDVs be in 2009? Hint, It won't be better than it is now.
Quote:
..but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
Why not just use the dictionary definition:
con·sum·er |kənˈsoōmər|
noun
? A person who purchases goods and services for personal use.
Take your pick. I'd just like to know where you think the price would be.
Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.
Quote:
It's not about glossy vs matte or mac vs pc. It's about your affirmation that 'the market has voted'.
If people did not by enough Apple products to allow the company to stay in business. Then I would say the market did not want Apple products.
We don't know how many glossy vs matte screens Apple sold. Apple felt it was enough of a difference to go with glossy. Using only one lowers component costs for Apple.
Quote:
When I posted, it had already been clarified. The comment was on mobile devices.
Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.
Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac. Here is how they compare.
Mac 2.8Ghz Core 2 Duo ----- Dell 2.4Ghz Core 2 Quad
Mac 2GB DDR2 ----- Dell 3GB DDR3.
Mac 320GB Hard drive ----- Dell 640GB hard drive
Mac Radeon HD 2600PRO ----- Dell Radeon 4850.
Bar these differences, everything else is the same.
Basically for the same price, the Dell absolutely wastes the Mac spec. The one thing Apple hardware is *not* is good value for money... it is very overpriced for what you get.
Even more damning is that comparing Apple USA to Dell USA and the divide is even larger. Here's what you get for the Dell spec at about the same price...
Comments
- Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.
- Yes the price has slightly increased but so has the quality and performance.
- speed increased from 800FSB to 1600FSB, 5 times faster graphics boost
Firewire is so important that you really cannot see these improvements?
yeah take a chill pill on that one
i said that i could guarantee they would have sold 5 more MBs in my immediate circle.
and in my very small sample that was related to
- lack of firewire / high speed mobile connectivity
- glossy screen
- increased price
- no real speed increase or CPU gain
- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.
and you are completely blinded on what is a mobile powered connection technology
go back and read the earlier posts, or read wiki
then come back here and tell me which mobile connections the MB has
what the heck - i'll save you some time... USB2 - that's it.
anway you can say what you want but the market around me has voted too
and that isn't me - you understand that right? no? ok
i wasn't saying "i was going to buy 5 MBs and a couple of MBPs and now i'm not"
i was saying that the people in my immediate circle have stopped buying macs because of this release
that's the market i see... you know that it's them who don't buy right? not me?
and about glossy screen - do you believe jobs when he's in marketing mode?
If they are only using their computer for the internet and word processing why would they be worried about Firewire?
I thought that that would be clear by now.
It's because they are not the only people buying (or that would like to buy) MacBooks.
If you care to take a look around the web you will threads like this one. A fairl amount of people would like a MacBook with firewire.
Having firewire means having options and they might just figure out how to put it to good use.
- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.
Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals.
Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.
All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
"13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution"
How many people have previously complained about these glossy screens and lack of choice? Seriously?!!
Yes the price has slightly increased but so has the quality and performance.
Quality
speed increased from 800FSB to 1600FSB, 5 times faster graphics boost
OK. A given. If needed. By the way... I don't need or use the built in iSight.
So, using the same argument, remove the iSight. Not needed.
Firewire is so important that you really cannot see these improvements?
If FireWire was NOT so important then would we all really be here debating the point? Would this thread (and many others like it) exist at all?
To what end? Again, you're under the assumption that they can handle faster than 28% growth. I think that Apple is already at risk of losing some of that end user experience at this growth rate.
What exactly is the end user experience? The one where half baked system updates render systems unbootable? The one where they release half-baked major OS updates? The one where they rush product designs out the door and have nasty condensation issues? The one where they completely replace a video port with something that contains copy protection technology that stops users viewing legally owned video content on their TVs? The one where they sell a device at a premium price and reduce it just weeks later? etc. And how about Apple's pièce de résistance on user experience: Mobile Me.
Apple can handle an increase in users up to the maximum capacity of its production.
Except that Apple does not care. Over and over in quarterly conferences analysts ask if apple is going to reduce margins to capture share and over and over they say no.
They do? It's been a while since I listened to an entire call but I don't remember that question coming up too often.
Then why bother? What is the payoff for increased sales at lower margins if you have to work harder to make about the same amount of profit at the end of the day? Their current strategy has both growth and higher profits.
How about to eat away at your competitors market share? To hit your competitors where it hurts, in their finances. To increase secundary income gains. To persuade more people that the mac platform is worth supporting.
You can make the case that in the current economic conditions that Apple should lower margins to maintain growth but I suspect that so long as Apple growth is above the industry average (or decline smaller than the industry average) they will stay their current course. And for good reason. Porsche or Ferrari or Viking or Jenn Air does not lower it's price during a downturn. They simply expect to sell fewer cars/stoves/refigerators until the rebound with the understanding that affluent people don't tend to buy Kenmores or a Kia but simply defer a purchase until later. What they don't want to do is dilute their branding because that takes forever to build.
A flawed analogy. So flawed that I won't even begin to take it apart.
The MacBook is a consumer notebook but it does not compete in the low end of the market. To meet the MacBook specifications and performance a PC will cost more than $500.
How much more?
- Gigabit Ethernet is high speed connectivity. You guys are so blinded by firewire.
- Jobs said glossy screens have far outsold matte screens. The market has voted.
PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?
Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.
Yes, that makes perfect sense when all you need is a FireWire 400 connection for your external HD or FW digicam, not to mention other FW peripherals.
Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.
At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.
All fine and dandy when all you are offered is a Glossy screen. Choice? Hmmm....
"13.3-inch (diagonal) LED-backlit glossy widescreen display, 1280-by-800 resolution"
How many people have previously complained about these glossy screens and lack of choice? Seriously?!!
The lesson from the point that glossy far outsold matte means that Apple has learned that most people don't need the choice.
The few people complaining on this internet list are not representative of the larger consumer market.
Quality
In a few years we will see if the unibody construction proves to be more durable than
the previous design.
OK. A given. If needed. By the way... I don't need or use the built in iSight.
So, using the same argument, remove the iSight. Not needed.
What does the iSight have to do with the system speed?
If FireWire was NOT so important then would we all really be here debating the point? Would this thread (and many others like it) exist at all?
I think it says more about this internet board. The fact that the MacBook is missing firewire and the larger world continues to go round.
How much more?
Depends on the machine and the manufacturer.
PC's outsell Macs more than 10 to 1. The market has voted. Should all macs be withdrawn from the market? I'm sure some iPod colours far outsell others. Should we get rid of the poor sellers?
I don't think these are analogous to glossy vs matte.
Your comment on Gigabit ethernet shows that you failed to read the original poster's comments carefully.
Well, please do explain what it means.
Obviously Apple has learned their aren't enough people using firewire digicams with the MB to continue the use of firewire necessary.
At this point their are no peripherals that are firewire only. Their are many peripherals that are USB only and that list is growing. I'm not sure why people continue to make this argument.
Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?
Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.
Obviously? And there are no firewire only peripherals?
Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.
What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.
Apple has not publicly stated why they removed Firewire. Your theory may, or may not be accurate but it's far from obvious.
Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.
Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning. Their are no firewire only peripherals for the wide consumer market.
What you point to is very specialized and more used in the pro market. Which is why the MBP does have firewire.
Well its only logical that if enough people used firewire that its absence would prove detrimental to MB sales, Apple would not have discontinued it. We don't need to know the reason it was removed to at least know that.
you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch
there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)
the vast majority of audio interfaces are FW with quite a number of audio interfaces around $500
this has all been pointed out before (hence why i feel no need to support my vast majority claim a 2nd time around)
...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate
Hmmm, I have to parse my comments down to have a specific meaning.
The word 'no' is a pretty specific one. If you're going to use it in the context that you used it in then, yes, it would have been better to be clearer from the outset.
However, I must admit that I normally enter into the 'spirit of use' for comments where I think that has to be taken into account.
The unit I linked to is not a 'pro' unit.
The unit I linked to is not a 'pro' unit.
Do you honestly think that the average consumer will use a "4-In/10-Out FireWire Mobile Recording Interface" that costs $400? No, I didn't think so. If one does wish to use that device with a new Mac, there are MacBooks, MacBook Pros, Mac minis, iMacs and Mac Pros that have FireWire. That is the entire Mac line, except for the MBA. That may not be pro level, but it's certainly a prosumer peripheral.
Depends on the machine and the manufacturer.
Take your pick. I'd just like to know where you think the price would be.
I don't think these are analogous to glossy vs matte.
It's not about glossy vs matte or mac vs pc. It's about your affirmation that 'the market has voted'.
Well, please do explain what it means.
When I posted, it had already been clarified. The comment was on mobile devices.
you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet
(either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch
there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
If there are plenty then why did you post only one from nearly a year ago. One that has almost falling 50% in price in that time. How many camcorders are out there and yet only a couple have FW in the consumer market. Are DV cameras by any stretch the most popular cameras being developed or sold today? The evidence points to no. What state will miniDVs be in 2009? Hint, It won't be better than it is now.
..but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
Why not just use the dictionary definition:
...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate
I feel pretty comfortable in saying that the majority of people buying MB are not using audio/visual equipment that costs $500 and over.
Take your pick. I'd just like to know where you think the price would be.
Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.
It's not about glossy vs matte or mac vs pc. It's about your affirmation that 'the market has voted'.
If people did not by enough Apple products to allow the company to stay in business. Then I would say the market did not want Apple products.
We don't know how many glossy vs matte screens Apple sold. Apple felt it was enough of a difference to go with glossy. Using only one lowers component costs for Apple.
When I posted, it had already been clarified. The comment was on mobile devices.
I missed the comment.
Since Apple switched to Intel components. Their have been numerous and exhaustive price comparisons. Similar configured Mac and PC consistently come within around the same price. At times the Mac can be cheaper.
Which unfortunately for you, is consistently incorrect. I've just browsed over to the Dell website to see what pre-configured system can be had for the same price as the bottom end 24" Mac. Here is how they compare.
Mac 2.8Ghz Core 2 Duo ----- Dell 2.4Ghz Core 2 Quad
Mac 2GB DDR2 ----- Dell 3GB DDR3.
Mac 320GB Hard drive ----- Dell 640GB hard drive
Mac Radeon HD 2600PRO ----- Dell Radeon 4850.
Bar these differences, everything else is the same.
Basically for the same price, the Dell absolutely wastes the Mac spec. The one thing Apple hardware is *not* is good value for money... it is very overpriced for what you get.
Even more damning is that comparing Apple USA to Dell USA and the divide is even larger. Here's what you get for the Dell spec at about the same price...
Intel® Core™2 Q9300 Quad-Core (6MB L2 cache,2.50GHz,1333FSB)
6GB Dual Channel DDR3 SDRAM at 1067MHz - 4 DIMMs
750GB - 7200RPM, SATA 3.0Gb/s, 16MB Cache
ATI Radeon HD 4850 512MB
The gap is so wide it's almost unbelievable!