There is plenty of room for DVI and firewire ports on the MacBook. The reason it appears that that isn't the case is that those ports were never in the design at the planning stage. One could even add an Express Card slot to the current MacBook form factor but these inclusions would have to be present from conception.
However, I have read somewhere that USB 3.0 cable may have to hide a USB 2.0 inside it upping the cost of fabrication. If that turns out to be true what will you say?
It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.
As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.
As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
You only said USB port interfaces! You didn't ask me to limit ports to the PC side. And to be honest, I think I may have seen some PCs with a 'mini' USB port on them. Either way, USB2.0 and 3.0 ports may be compatible but they are in fact also different.
You only said USB port interfaces! You didn't ask me to limit ports to the PC side. And to be honest, I think I may have seen some PCs with a 'mini' USB port on them.
What have we been talking about? What a 3rd-party vendor does with their end of the cable makes no difference to the conversation. The only difference it makes in the real world is that it may be cross compatible with other cables that have a USB -A connector on the PC end. I'm sure you do have USB-B port in some generic PC. they are all about the ports regardless of how little use or how out of date the technology is. That is their modus operandi, not Apple's.
Quote:
Either way, USB2.0 and 3.0 ports may be compatible but they are in fact also different.
Of course they are different, otherwise it wold be USB2.0 and not USB3.0, but you can still plug you USB2.0-A cables into USB3.0-A ports and it will still work as before without needing an adapter.
If you don't think that the removal of FW400 was due to edge space constraints then please locate where Apple could have placed them and explain why Apple didn't add a 3rd USB port to the MB/MBP or a 2nd FW800 to the MBP? It's just the removal of FW400 from both machines, it's the loss of an entire port as it was replaced with nothing.
We at least need to wait and see what Apple does with the iMac before we make this determination.
Apple has a history of getting Intel and now Nvidia to make special chips for them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrochester
Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
OK. So, following that little interchange, can we now look at this snippet:
Quote:
FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.
and consider it to be irrelevant to the issue?
I'll explain. I presume your point was that FW was in some way uncomfortable for users as they would have to use cables with different port connectors. Therefore USB was 'better'. However, it turns out that due to the design of USB, users would have the exact same issue, but at the other end of the cable.
FW400 had the same connectors at both ends (as does FW800) with a mini 4-pin variant for tight spaces, perhaps allowing for less cable headaches.
Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).
As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
yes thanks for taking time to read - it's good to add another person's views to the pile
totally agree on the tech reporter angle, just i don't know any with contacts in apple
also i'm intrigued by your movie set experience - what exactly are your crew doing with their MBs ? and the MBPs?
do they buy new computers because they're editing or because they've just got a new film contract and now have some money to spend. genuine question.
regarding the lack of usefulness of firewire, what are you now using as a connection technology? optical? sata? USB? ethernet? are you shooting film or digital?
PS it was me who put in the 5MB+2MBP anecdotal evidence (and you're right it's exactly that - anecdotal - i wasn't trying to use it to prove any rule) - just as i guess your 7 colleagues can't either,
but as i specified when i made those statements, the people around me didn't hold back because of firewire but because of other issues, mostly price, some gloss screens, 1 or 2 firewire and some all of the above.
there are a few general issues with the recent notebook launch - of which firewire is only one.
I'll explain. I presume your point was that FW was in some way uncomfortable for users as they would have to use cables with different port connectors. Therefore USB was 'better'. However, it turns out that due to the design of USB, users would have the exact same issue, but at the other end of the cable.
Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.
You still haven't shown me any proof that FW400 is still alive and well. How many new cameras and HDDs and camcorders are coming out in 2009 that have FW400 as their only data transfer? What percentage are they compared to USB devices. Engadget seems to list all the new HW that hits the FCC and what is on the horizon at trade shows so I'm sure you can find plenty, if any actually exist. Finding peripherals that were new a year or two ago and trying to compare them to a new MB that will most likely go unchanged in the casing for the next 2+ years is disingenuous to the topic.
I really don't get why you think Apple should support an interface port that you knew they were dropping and that you knew was a dead end port interface technology. You can say you didn't know these things were gonna happen, but if you really are all about FireWire as you say then these things should have been crystal. Again, it sucks to see a technology get dropped before you're ready, but "such is life." I'm more than ready for internal optical drives to be dropped from notebooks, which would give plenty of edge real estate for more ports, but we don't get what we want, so I have to deal with the largest single item by volume in my MB taking up space that I'll probably never use in the year I'll own this Mac, expect to install SL because they probably won't offer a Flash drive installer just yet.
also i'm intrigued by your movie set experience - what exactly are your crew doing with their MBs ? and the MBPs?
do they buy new computers because they're editing or because they've just got a new film contract and now have some money to spend. genuine question.
regarding the lack of usefulness of firewire, what are you now using as a connection technology? optical? sata? USB? ethernet? are you shooting film or digital?
PS it was me who put in the 5MB+2MBP anecdotal evidence (and you're right it's exactly that - anecdotal - i wasn't trying to use it to prove any rule) - just as i guess your 7 colleagues can't either,
but as i specified when i made those statements, the people around me didn't hold back because of firewire but because of other issues, mostly price, some gloss screens, 1 or 2 firewire and some all of the above.
there are a few general issues with the recent notebook launch - of which firewire is only one.
Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP. On-site editors will have a MacPro rig, and some major RAIDing going on (we always have electricity with Gennies, etc; if not plugs) -- all of it stuffed in some Pelicans or something like that. Everyone has their personal music on their computers for their iPods and very general listening when they're waiting around between shots. Everyone who needs a new computer usually gets them at the start of production because the money is there (and because their old one works as a backup... a must on location). I tend to use an AirPort Extreme back at my hotel room (on location) to automatically backup when I come in at night, and to keep all my music on (450gig and counting). I don't have time for music on-set (unless it's for reference for the movie. Others use eSATA for major throughput.
I'm trying high-res digital on this film now that I've found a way to make it a little warmer (I've found video great for many things, but it's never been very warm or emotional -- stark to my eye -- now that the technology has come along, I've found ways to make it more sensual to my eye, hence trying it on this project.)
And I was only throwing my anecdotal in to off-set your anecdotal... no big thang. I've not had much problem with glossy screens (we edit in the dark like mushrooms), but I can understand others' choices. I would love to have more variety from Apple, but I realize they are what they are. I get what is most useful (or sexy -- when I was working on a series in Iceland a few years back, everyone had Powerbooks, and they were so sexy, I HAD to get one).
It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.
As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
i don't hear too many people arguing for FW400 specifically
what may be confusing is that people saying 'they should have kept at least FW400' (meaning fw800 would be more than welcome)
but as i've said before most posters are bemoaning the lack of firewire in general on the MB
just look at the title of this thread...
regarding the case design - not sure how anyone can claim it's impossible to add a FW port
i'm typing from a apple 13" macbook which is fitted with ethernet, 2xUSB, 1 x FW mini DVI etc etc
(yes PCI card may be a stretch...)
....so then are you saying that the new unibody is taking up more space than the old plastic one?
is this a limitation of the unibody - or as AvonB7 points out just something they didn't design for?
i would say apple is perfectly capable of putting in another port - but just chose not to
for reasons we're trying to get to the bottom of \
(and yes anyone with a well connected tech reporter friend do be so kind...)
Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP. On-site editors will have a MacPro rig, and some major RAIDing going on (we always have electricity with Gennies, etc; if not plugs) -- all of it stuffed in some Pelicans or something like that. Everyone has their personal music on their computers for their iPods and very general listening when they're waiting around between shots. Everyone who needs a new computer usually gets them at the start of production because the money is there (and because their old one works as a backup... a must on location). I tend to use an AirPort Extreme back at my hotel room (on location) to automatically backup when I come in at night, and to keep all my music on (450gig and counting). I don't have time for music on-set (unless it's for reference for the movie. Others use eSATA for major throughput.
I'm trying high-res digital on this film now that I've found a way to make it a little warmer (I've found video great for many things, but it's never been very warm or emotional -- stark to my eye -- now that the technology has come along, I've found ways to make it more sensual to my eye, hence trying it on this project.)
And I was only throwing my anecdotal in to off-set your anecdotal... no big thang. I've not had much problem with glossy screens (we edit in the dark like mushrooms), but I can understand others' choices. I would love to have more variety from Apple, but I realize they are what they are. I get what is most useful (or sexy -- when I was working on a series in Iceland a few years back, everyone had Powerbooks, and they were so sexy, I HAD to get one).
Thanks. Nice of you to say. I'm not much of a die hard anything (Apple, or whatever), but I must admit we made fun of the one guy on set on my last project who had a Zune. But I feel that was warranted, and shaming him with peer pressure seemed better than having to beat him up.
Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.
totally agree - the FW400 port is a dead end
(even though there are still peripherals being released with it)
but lets distinguish that from saying FW itself is a dead end...
and yes it would have been more intelligent to try and keep the same form from FW400 to FW800 - if it were possible
(although the FW800 port, being smaller, is more elegant)
however it's no biggie since FW800 can match up to FW400 with a cheap cable or adapter
it'll be interesting to see how USB3 manages - no jokes
the incorporation of optical is not going to be so easy - for cost, size and fragility of cables
(i''m sure they'll manage though)
one thing i like about USB which i don't about ethernet and FW is the thinness of the cables
FW/ethernet/optical (and USB3) cables are much stiffer and have to be in larger loops - which takes up more space
Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.
Because without users the whole thing is moot. What was your point on USB 2 to 3 ports with regard to FW 400 to 800 ports? If you say that USB uses the same port connector and FW 400 to 800 doesn't are you just stating the obvious, or was there actually something else to it? What I suggested perhaps? If you were not just stating the obvious then I can only imagine that you had users in mind. If that's the case then yes, FW users may need cables with one connector type on one end and another on the other end. Just as USB users do right now.
Quote:
You still haven't shown me any proof that FW400 is still alive and well
Why do I have to provide proof? And why FW400? This thread is about Firewire, the whole shebang, from technology to ports to users. I'm not discontent with my FW peripheral options at the moment. I am discontent with Apple's decision.
Quote:
I really don't get why you think Apple should support an interface port that you knew they were dropping and that you knew was a dead end port interface technology. You can say you didn't know these things were gonna happen, but if you really are all about FireWire as you say then these things should have been crystal.
Crystal? Hardware developers didn't even see this coming so how should it have been crystal? I certainly didn't know they were dropping firewire (and if you were only referring to FW400 I fail to see why you are limiting your scope) and for the umpteenth time Apple has not made its plans for firewire official so how do you know? And Apple should support the technology as Apple is the one that largely developed it and pushed it. Once again (just to be clear) Apple has not even bothered to say where it is going with FW so we're in the dark. No surprises there given the man in charge.
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Again, it sucks to see a technology get dropped before you're ready, but "such is life." I'm more than ready for internal optical drives to be dropped from notebooks, which would give plenty of edge real estate for more ports, but we don't get what we want, so I have to deal with the largest single item by volume in my MB taking up space that I'll probably never use in the year I'll own this Mac, expect to install SL because they probably won't offer a Flash drive installer just yet.
It sucks. That's why many have made their views clear in this thread and all over the internet. Thanks to the internet, users have a voice. It is making itself heard and with a lot of luck Apple might just listen (although I'm not going to hold by breath, just my checkbook).
I have also mentioned (elsewhere on the internet) making the DVD drive external as an option to be considered and think it makes sense.
Thanks. Nice of you to say. I'm not much of a die hard anything (Apple, or whatever), but I must admit we made fun of the one guy on set on my last project who had a Zune. But I feel that was warranted, and shaming him with peer pressure seemed better than having to beat him up.
I also work in film. I think is was on the original thread about the unibody MacBook. I told people complaining about firewire that most everyone on film sets use Mac notebooks. Its a professional environment and mostly no one is concerned about all of the things that people on Apple Insider are so concerned about.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mzaslove
Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP.
I have also mentioned (elsewhere on the internet) making the DVD drive external as an option to be considered and think it makes sense.
I would believe Apple is headed in this direction. At this point only the largest software applications and media files need to be on a DVD. Its all quickly moving to digital downloads.
I also work in film. I think is was on the original thread about the unibody MacBook. I told people complaining about firewire that most everyone on film sets use Mac notebooks. Its a professional environment and mostly no one is concerned about all of the things that people on Apple Insider are so concerned about.
yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)
it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.
still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity
Light weight tasks are what notebooks are mostly used for. I think there are a couple of misconceptions about the independent film world.
Few people are shooting DV, most everyone is shooting HD today. The best solution for shooting good quality low cost HD is to use flash for storage, the market is moving away from tape storage. Digitizing in real time from tape is the primary advantage of firewire.
Most people are not digitizing and editing on a notebook. Primarily because a notebook screen is too small to use as an editing suite. Most people edit on a desktop with larger screens. I've never seen anyone attempt to seriously edit on a MacBook. A MacBook has about the worst of all compromises to use for editing. If you do want to use a notebook for editing nearly everyone would recommend a 17" MacBook Pro.
Yes Apple is inconveniencing a certain segment by removing firewire. But in the larger scheme that segment is so small as to be insignificant.
Quote:
Originally Posted by otwayross
yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)
it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.
still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity
you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet (either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch \)
there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)
"Canon also realize that tape-based (HDV) high definition camcorders are on their last legs. HDD and solid state memory are taking precedence, and it wouldn?t be surprising if this is the last time their consumer HDV line receives any significant upgrades."
Yes, most folks are going away from tape and in doing so, removing the last need for FW on their cameras. Despite the AVCHD growing pains it is replacing HDV.
The lack of FW400 might be annoying to some in 2008 but in the future years it will be even more of a non-issue.
The Canon HF10/HF11 is right below the HV30/HV20 and there are many other AVCHD cams now.
Note that in that top 10 list 7 of the top 10 are flash/hdd camcorders. After the HV30 and HV20 only the last camera is a HDV camcorder.
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...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate
Prosumer cams are moving to HDD or flash and away from tape as well. Heck, even the scarlet is flash and has USB2.
This was in the works since iMovie 08 started supporting AVCHD. The future is flash/hdd and not tape.
Comments
There is plenty of room for DVI and firewire ports on the MacBook. The reason it appears that that isn't the case is that those ports were never in the design at the planning stage. One could even add an Express Card slot to the current MacBook form factor but these inclusions would have to be present from conception.
Show me where they could add them.
However, I have read somewhere that USB 3.0 cable may have to hide a USB 2.0 inside it upping the cost of fabrication. If that turns out to be true what will you say?
It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.
As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.
As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
You only said USB port interfaces! You didn't ask me to limit ports to the PC side. And to be honest, I think I may have seen some PCs with a 'mini' USB port on them. Either way, USB2.0 and 3.0 ports may be compatible but they are in fact also different.
You only said USB port interfaces! You didn't ask me to limit ports to the PC side. And to be honest, I think I may have seen some PCs with a 'mini' USB port on them.
What have we been talking about? What a 3rd-party vendor does with their end of the cable makes no difference to the conversation. The only difference it makes in the real world is that it may be cross compatible with other cables that have a USB -A connector on the PC end. I'm sure you do have USB-B port in some generic PC. they are all about the ports regardless of how little use or how out of date the technology is. That is their modus operandi, not Apple's.
Either way, USB2.0 and 3.0 ports may be compatible but they are in fact also different.
Of course they are different, otherwise it wold be USB2.0 and not USB3.0, but you can still plug you USB2.0-A cables into USB3.0-A ports and it will still work as before without needing an adapter.
If you don't think that the removal of FW400 was due to edge space constraints then please locate where Apple could have placed them and explain why Apple didn't add a 3rd USB port to the MB/MBP or a 2nd FW800 to the MBP? It's just the removal of FW400 from both machines, it's the loss of an entire port as it was replaced with nothing.
Apple has a history of getting Intel and now Nvidia to make special chips for them.
Well as long as Apple put a Core i7 2.66Ghz, 6GB RAM, 640GB hard drive and a Radeon 4850 in the iMac, then they do have the chance of besting the Dell by $80. However, chances are, the Dell will have dropped by those $80 by the time Apple refreshes, and Apple probably won't have anywhere near that spec either.
FW800 and FW400 use different port interfaces, whereas USB uses the same port interface port from 1.0 to 3.0. This makes the technology backwards compatible in not only the transfer protocols but also the ports interfaces.
and consider it to be irrelevant to the issue?
I'll explain. I presume your point was that FW was in some way uncomfortable for users as they would have to use cables with different port connectors. Therefore USB was 'better'. However, it turns out that due to the design of USB, users would have the exact same issue, but at the other end of the cable.
FW400 had the same connectors at both ends (as does FW800) with a mini 4-pin variant for tight spaces, perhaps allowing for less cable headaches.
Whelp, I've been following this for awhile and although I can understand both sides, I find sillier justifications on the pro-firewire side than the no-firewire side (many of them similar to the pro-xMac people: "I want it, therefore I am the majority."). I'm surprised no one has gotten a reporter to find out the real answer. With almost 1500 posts on this thing, if 500 of those were aimed at a tech reporter, I'm sure they'd try to dig into it more (there are a few good tech writers, not a lot, and as a former reporter who occasionally keeps his hand it -- not usually tech -- it shouldn't be that big a deal with some sources to find out the answer).
As for the anecdotal "I have 5 friends who didn't buy, so there...." -- I've just started a new film, mostly on location, and just at quick glance, 7 of the crew bought new MB's without firewire. No problem, they like Apple products and needed something small on the shoot, and pretty much the rest went out and bought new MBP's. At the start of movie projects, lots of people find it a good time to get a new computer. None of them need firewire (I asked). These are professionals in the movie business, so take it for what it's worth. The sound guy has his own turnkey rig, so he could care less, as well.
What does it all mean? We either wait and see what happens, or someone actually gets some facts from Apple. Otherwise it's a lot of sound and fury symbolizing nothing....
yes thanks for taking time to read - it's good to add another person's views to the pile
totally agree on the tech reporter angle, just i don't know any with contacts in apple
also i'm intrigued by your movie set experience - what exactly are your crew doing with their MBs ? and the MBPs?
do they buy new computers because they're editing or because they've just got a new film contract and now have some money to spend. genuine question.
regarding the lack of usefulness of firewire, what are you now using as a connection technology? optical? sata? USB? ethernet? are you shooting film or digital?
PS it was me who put in the 5MB+2MBP anecdotal evidence (and you're right it's exactly that - anecdotal - i wasn't trying to use it to prove any rule) - just as i guess your 7 colleagues can't either,
but as i specified when i made those statements, the people around me didn't hold back because of firewire but because of other issues, mostly price, some gloss screens, 1 or 2 firewire and some all of the above.
there are a few general issues with the recent notebook launch - of which firewire is only one.
I'll explain. I presume your point was that FW was in some way uncomfortable for users as they would have to use cables with different port connectors. Therefore USB was 'better'. However, it turns out that due to the design of USB, users would have the exact same issue, but at the other end of the cable.
Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.
You still haven't shown me any proof that FW400 is still alive and well. How many new cameras and HDDs and camcorders are coming out in 2009 that have FW400 as their only data transfer? What percentage are they compared to USB devices. Engadget seems to list all the new HW that hits the FCC and what is on the horizon at trade shows so I'm sure you can find plenty, if any actually exist. Finding peripherals that were new a year or two ago and trying to compare them to a new MB that will most likely go unchanged in the casing for the next 2+ years is disingenuous to the topic.
I really don't get why you think Apple should support an interface port that you knew they were dropping and that you knew was a dead end port interface technology. You can say you didn't know these things were gonna happen, but if you really are all about FireWire as you say then these things should have been crystal. Again, it sucks to see a technology get dropped before you're ready, but "such is life." I'm more than ready for internal optical drives to be dropped from notebooks, which would give plenty of edge real estate for more ports, but we don't get what we want, so I have to deal with the largest single item by volume in my MB taking up space that I'll probably never use in the year I'll own this Mac, expect to install SL because they probably won't offer a Flash drive installer just yet.
also i'm intrigued by your movie set experience - what exactly are your crew doing with their MBs ? and the MBPs?
do they buy new computers because they're editing or because they've just got a new film contract and now have some money to spend. genuine question.
regarding the lack of usefulness of firewire, what are you now using as a connection technology? optical? sata? USB? ethernet? are you shooting film or digital?
PS it was me who put in the 5MB+2MBP anecdotal evidence (and you're right it's exactly that - anecdotal - i wasn't trying to use it to prove any rule) - just as i guess your 7 colleagues can't either,
but as i specified when i made those statements, the people around me didn't hold back because of firewire but because of other issues, mostly price, some gloss screens, 1 or 2 firewire and some all of the above.
there are a few general issues with the recent notebook launch - of which firewire is only one.
Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP. On-site editors will have a MacPro rig, and some major RAIDing going on (we always have electricity with Gennies, etc; if not plugs) -- all of it stuffed in some Pelicans or something like that. Everyone has their personal music on their computers for their iPods and very general listening when they're waiting around between shots. Everyone who needs a new computer usually gets them at the start of production because the money is there (and because their old one works as a backup... a must on location). I tend to use an AirPort Extreme back at my hotel room (on location) to automatically backup when I come in at night, and to keep all my music on (450gig and counting). I don't have time for music on-set (unless it's for reference for the movie. Others use eSATA for major throughput.
I'm trying high-res digital on this film now that I've found a way to make it a little warmer (I've found video great for many things, but it's never been very warm or emotional -- stark to my eye -- now that the technology has come along, I've found ways to make it more sensual to my eye, hence trying it on this project.)
And I was only throwing my anecdotal in to off-set your anecdotal... no big thang. I've not had much problem with glossy screens (we edit in the dark like mushrooms), but I can understand others' choices. I would love to have more variety from Apple, but I realize they are what they are. I get what is most useful (or sexy -- when I was working on a series in Iceland a few years back, everyone had Powerbooks, and they were so sexy, I HAD to get one).
It's true that USB3.0 standard includes additoanl pins for full duplex and the wire will be thicker because of it (if it's included in the cable) , but the port will backwards compatible with USB2.0 in the port and data as it use the Type A connector . Not so with FW800 to FW400 which is backwards compatible with data but not the port interface, though FW800/1600/3200 use the same 9-pin interface. If you were to make an argument, it would be that FW400 is a dead end interface and that FW800 should have been added to the MB, but I haven't read any posts to that nature. I've oly read that due to the removal of FW400 that MB sales will plummet and that Apple has effectively shunned nearly all their users and potential users.
As for your comment about the port on the peripheral end, that is irrelevant to a discussion about the port in your PC. The printer or camera or HDD or whatever vendor is going to supply you with a cable that will fit into their device so the only end that one needs to worry about is the end going to you PC.
i don't hear too many people arguing for FW400 specifically
what may be confusing is that people saying 'they should have kept at least FW400' (meaning fw800 would be more than welcome)
but as i've said before most posters are bemoaning the lack of firewire in general on the MB
just look at the title of this thread...
regarding the case design - not sure how anyone can claim it's impossible to add a FW port
i'm typing from a apple 13" macbook which is fitted with ethernet, 2xUSB, 1 x FW mini DVI etc etc
(yes PCI card may be a stretch...)
....so then are you saying that the new unibody is taking up more space than the old plastic one?
is this a limitation of the unibody - or as AvonB7 points out just something they didn't design for?
i would say apple is perfectly capable of putting in another port - but just chose not to
for reasons we're trying to get to the bottom of
(and yes anyone with a well connected tech reporter friend do be so kind...)
Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP. On-site editors will have a MacPro rig, and some major RAIDing going on (we always have electricity with Gennies, etc; if not plugs) -- all of it stuffed in some Pelicans or something like that. Everyone has their personal music on their computers for their iPods and very general listening when they're waiting around between shots. Everyone who needs a new computer usually gets them at the start of production because the money is there (and because their old one works as a backup... a must on location). I tend to use an AirPort Extreme back at my hotel room (on location) to automatically backup when I come in at night, and to keep all my music on (450gig and counting). I don't have time for music on-set (unless it's for reference for the movie. Others use eSATA for major throughput.
I'm trying high-res digital on this film now that I've found a way to make it a little warmer (I've found video great for many things, but it's never been very warm or emotional -- stark to my eye -- now that the technology has come along, I've found ways to make it more sensual to my eye, hence trying it on this project.)
And I was only throwing my anecdotal in to off-set your anecdotal... no big thang. I've not had much problem with glossy screens (we edit in the dark like mushrooms), but I can understand others' choices. I would love to have more variety from Apple, but I realize they are what they are. I get what is most useful (or sexy -- when I was working on a series in Iceland a few years back, everyone had Powerbooks, and they were so sexy, I HAD to get one).
it's all good
i like your input and take on things - seriously.
it's all good
i like your input and take on things - seriously.
Thanks. Nice of you to say. I'm not much of a die hard anything (Apple, or whatever), but I must admit we made fun of the one guy on set on my last project who had a Zune. But I feel that was warranted, and shaming him with peer pressure seemed better than having to beat him up.
Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.
totally agree - the FW400 port is a dead end
(even though there are still peripherals being released with it)
but lets distinguish that from saying FW itself is a dead end...
and yes it would have been more intelligent to try and keep the same form from FW400 to FW800 - if it were possible
(although the FW800 port, being smaller, is more elegant)
however it's no biggie since FW800 can match up to FW400 with a cheap cable or adapter
it'll be interesting to see how USB3 manages - no jokes
the incorporation of optical is not going to be so easy - for cost, size and fragility of cables
(i''m sure they'll manage though)
one thing i like about USB which i don't about ethernet and FW is the thinness of the cables
FW/ethernet/optical (and USB3) cables are much stiffer and have to be in larger loops - which takes up more space
no serious stress though
Why are you bringing users into this? USB3.0 and USB2.0 can be the same port interface. This means one port can do both without an adapter for the PC. FW400 can't plug into a FW800 port without an adapter. This makes the port interface a dead end since FW is moving from FW800 to FW3200, which uses the same port interface.
Because without users the whole thing is moot. What was your point on USB 2 to 3 ports with regard to FW 400 to 800 ports? If you say that USB uses the same port connector and FW 400 to 800 doesn't are you just stating the obvious, or was there actually something else to it? What I suggested perhaps? If you were not just stating the obvious then I can only imagine that you had users in mind. If that's the case then yes, FW users may need cables with one connector type on one end and another on the other end. Just as USB users do right now.
You still haven't shown me any proof that FW400 is still alive and well
Why do I have to provide proof? And why FW400? This thread is about Firewire, the whole shebang, from technology to ports to users. I'm not discontent with my FW peripheral options at the moment. I am discontent with Apple's decision.
I really don't get why you think Apple should support an interface port that you knew they were dropping and that you knew was a dead end port interface technology. You can say you didn't know these things were gonna happen, but if you really are all about FireWire as you say then these things should have been crystal.
Crystal? Hardware developers didn't even see this coming so how should it have been crystal? I certainly didn't know they were dropping firewire (and if you were only referring to FW400 I fail to see why you are limiting your scope) and for the umpteenth time Apple has not made its plans for firewire official so how do you know? And Apple should support the technology as Apple is the one that largely developed it and pushed it. Once again (just to be clear) Apple has not even bothered to say where it is going with FW so we're in the dark. No surprises there given the man in charge.
Again, it sucks to see a technology get dropped before you're ready, but "such is life." I'm more than ready for internal optical drives to be dropped from notebooks, which would give plenty of edge real estate for more ports, but we don't get what we want, so I have to deal with the largest single item by volume in my MB taking up space that I'll probably never use in the year I'll own this Mac, expect to install SL because they probably won't offer a Flash drive installer just yet.
It sucks. That's why many have made their views clear in this thread and all over the internet. Thanks to the internet, users have a voice. It is making itself heard and with a lot of luck Apple might just listen (although I'm not going to hold by breath, just my checkbook).
I have also mentioned (elsewhere on the internet) making the DVD drive external as an option to be considered and think it makes sense.
Thanks. Nice of you to say. I'm not much of a die hard anything (Apple, or whatever), but I must admit we made fun of the one guy on set on my last project who had a Zune. But I feel that was warranted, and shaming him with peer pressure seemed better than having to beat him up.
Well, AD's, script supervisors, PM's, etc., tend to use their laptops with production software like scheduling packages, breakdowns, Excel for keeping track of shots, notes, digital storyboards. Also, for keeping video clips and photos for reference, etc. I keep EVERYTHING on my MBP.
I have also mentioned (elsewhere on the internet) making the DVD drive external as an option to be considered and think it makes sense.
I would believe Apple is headed in this direction. At this point only the largest software applications and media files need to be on a DVD. Its all quickly moving to digital downloads.
I also work in film. I think is was on the original thread about the unibody MacBook. I told people complaining about firewire that most everyone on film sets use Mac notebooks. Its a professional environment and mostly no one is concerned about all of the things that people on Apple Insider are so concerned about.
yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)
it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.
still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity
Few people are shooting DV, most everyone is shooting HD today. The best solution for shooting good quality low cost HD is to use flash for storage, the market is moving away from tape storage. Digitizing in real time from tape is the primary advantage of firewire.
Most people are not digitizing and editing on a notebook. Primarily because a notebook screen is too small to use as an editing suite. Most people edit on a desktop with larger screens. I've never seen anyone attempt to seriously edit on a MacBook. A MacBook has about the worst of all compromises to use for editing. If you do want to use a notebook for editing nearly everyone would recommend a 17" MacBook Pro.
Yes Apple is inconveniencing a certain segment by removing firewire. But in the larger scheme that segment is so small as to be insignificant.
yes, but the list given by mraslove shows that people on his film set only use their MBs for relatively lightweight tasks (excel, scheduling, prod software, photos etc)
it is the indie producers, prosumers & advanced hobbyists who'd actually need to connect their notebook to a video camera... i know it's like that in the audio world - most people in upper professional environments would be using much bigger machines.
still it's difficult to argue that apple hasn't lost a certain market segment by reducing connectivity
you obviously haven't had a good look at the market for audio visual products yet (either that of you believed SJ outright - which is probably not the best thing to do surrounding a product launch
there are plenty of consumer grade camcorders with DVout only (video land codename for 1394 spec) - at around $600
in fact the #1 rated camcorder on camcorder info is the HV30 - which only has FW out (and HDMI but that's for viewing not transfer)
(before you get excited about finding a USB port on the HV30 it's for still images only - not for video transfer)
"Canon also realize that tape-based (HDV) high definition camcorders are on their last legs. HDD and solid state memory are taking precedence, and it wouldn?t be surprising if this is the last time their consumer HDV line receives any significant upgrades."
http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content...view-34401.htm
Yes, most folks are going away from tape and in doing so, removing the last need for FW on their cameras. Despite the AVCHD growing pains it is replacing HDV.
The lack of FW400 might be annoying to some in 2008 but in the future years it will be even more of a non-issue.
The Canon HF10/HF11 is right below the HV30/HV20 and there are many other AVCHD cams now.
Note that in that top 10 list 7 of the top 10 are flash/hdd camcorders. After the HV30 and HV20 only the last camera is a HDV camcorder.
...but then again it really depends what you define as consumer right ?
is someone purchasing a $1300+ MB really limited to peripheral devices less than $500 ?
that's a whole new argument - but certainly an interesting one in this economic climate
Prosumer cams are moving to HDD or flash and away from tape as well. Heck, even the scarlet is flash and has USB2.
This was in the works since iMovie 08 started supporting AVCHD. The future is flash/hdd and not tape.