A.) I don't care how many customers or employees this affects, Apple still has no business supporting social issues. It is a democratic vote by the people, and everyone else needs to shut their face. The PEOPLE will decide how they want to be governed. Majority rules in a democratic situation. Deal with it. In fact, I think it will hurt Apple more, as MORE people object to the idea overall. Homosexual marriage has historically been voted down time and time again, though single legislating judges feel it is their right to over rule the PEOPLE.
B.) MARRIAGE IS NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT! I challenge any one of you to find it in the Constitution. You will not/cannot find it. So therefore, the 14th Amendment DOES NOT protect MARRIAGE (homosexual or otherwise) for it's citizens.
Do you honestly believe that civil rights like racial and woman suffrage and the abolition of slavery should be wiped out because they weren't part of the original constitution????
1. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex marriage taught in school, starting with kindergarten, as being exactly the same as marriage between a man and a woman. They want this teaching campaign ? that sexual preference does not matter ? to begin even before children develop their sexual identities, which will be confusing and destabilizing to our children.
2. Those opposing Proposition 8 would like that campaign to occur at taxpayer expense, as all textbooks in California will be required to be changed to describe marriage as genderless.
3. Those opposing Proposition 8 insist that this propaganda campaign must occur without parental consent or notice.
4. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex couples to be able to force their right to adopt a young baby even when it will compete with and replace a family with a mother and father, although having a mother and a father is always in the best interest of every baby.
5. Those opposing Proposition 8 seek to close down adoption clinics and religious welfare agencies of those who oppose same sex marriage (just as has happened already in Massachusetts), as they place the right to same sex marriage on a collision course with the right to free speech and freedom of religion of those with whom they disagree, when those clinics are a crucial help to the people of this State.
6. Those opposing Proposition 8 do not want people in a same sex union to be properly questioned when they try to adopt young adults of their same sex ? for example, two married men seeking to adopt a 12-year old boy. In short, same sex couples do not want to be treated any differently than a couple consisting of a man and woman ? even in circumstances where there are differences and questions should be asked.
Sigh... I couldn't let this pass. As an active participant in the fight against Prop 8, I can say that NONE of the people I work with have voiced ANYTHING like the points you've listed.
Please provide links to reputable news sources for these outrageous claims.
This is not something companies should be getting involved in. They should remain politically neutral on these matters and let the govt's and states battle it out.
It's not a political matter. It's a civil rights issue. When we see something as heinous as Prop 8 rear its head, everyone should stand up and speak out against it, including companies.
Besides, Apple is a corporate citizen of California. They have infinitely more reason to speak on the issue that ALL of the major funders of Prop 8, NONE of whom are based in California.
Sorry I'm not religious. But I do recognize that things are either right or wrong.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
Why would I be scared they would make me gay? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Would I be scared of becoming a pedophile if pedophilia was legalized or becoming a crackhead if crack was legalized? Seriously thats the stupidest shi I ever heard and makes negative 2 ounces of sense.
what part of two consenting ADULTS do you miss?
children don't give their informed consent, nice try at the FUD of misdirection.
I touch my sister, what? theres no physical contact between you and your sister? now THATS wrong. obviously you are very repressed, you afraid that if you touch someone, you cant hold back the man lust?
1. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex marriage taught in school, starting with kindergarten, as being exactly the same as marriage between a man and a woman. They want this teaching campaign ? that sexual preference does not matter ? to begin even before children develop their sexual identities, which will be confusing and destabilizing to our children.
That's completely false, you're just buying into their propaganda.
Why all the tension about this? really, I am 23, maybe I m young and ignorant, but really, what is the problem with guys marrying guys, girls marrying girls, and such.
I see a society where a few Christians can dictate their doctorine on everyone, this happens with many issues:
no "dirty words" or "graphic images" can be on TV, and who has the ruler for dirty words and graphic imagery? not a set of standards, but the unwritten and oft unpredictable whims of a wacky fringe group of Christians.
Abstanance education, keeping kids ignorant about their bodies is a GREAT way to curb risky behavior, and to whom do we owe thanks for this? Christian groups.
And abortion: I really don't like it but really, these people think that senators congressmen and presidents can change that...THEY CANT without a constitutional convention, 30 years of case law is really hard to undo, and no one president can do it, but these churches (I have attended several and heard the same at each) say that you should vote for candidate X because he is against abortion, they dont care about any other issues, and they abuse the pulpit to instill this in their congregations
All of the sudden I am inspired to coin a phrase: "Big Christianity" I want to make a distinction between the flock and the handful of rotten "shepherds" that profit at the expense of society as a whole. The organizations who appose gay marriage are giant institutions, the Liberty University, Focus on the Family, Parents TV Council, and so on. these places get their money from well meaning churches with the purist of intent, as the churches buy their supplemental teaching materials, then these orgs take their money and use it to make everything that doesn't fit their mold look "evil".
2 guys getting mrried is just fine, so what, Isnt it healthier for all of us to have those that are gay living in the open rather than having to be so secretive about it? I mean really, gay guys should not have to resort to meeting in nature preserves, just let them do what they want in the privacy of their homes or hotels like streight folks.
I truly do not understand the homophobia of my parents generation, but maybe this is the generation to change that.
(I was raised Christian and am still in that camp, although not as firmly as I used to be)
I am sorry if I offended anyone in this long winded rant, it just felt good to say it.
Here in Denmark Gay marriges have been legal for decades.
Why you (The States) haven´t come out of the middle ages yet regarding this issue I can´t understand???
THEREFORE I SAY GOOOOOO APPLE!!!!!!
Many children have had good upbringings and competent parenting from loving parents here, wether it was mom and mom or dad and dad parenting! IT´S ALL ABOUT THE LOVE!!! ...Not restrictions. No one can and should decide whom a person loves but the individual himself/herself!
Apple has gone "green". You don´t think that´s political!? Why is this so different? In the board room they have disgussed this and they also know that this will ensure them many new customers from generations to come. This is pleasing the youth... which is Apple´s future. So why not do the right thing AND win over a larger customer base?!
Don´t hide who you are...
Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.
The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.
Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
Your argument that consensual sex between two adults is somehow synonymous with the rape of a child or an erratic violent attack shows just how little grasp you have of the topic and/or how likely that #8 will be easily opposed next Tuesday.
I am not in California, but my state had a similar proposition opposing this civil right. I proudly voted against it.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
No, it's not like any of those at all.
Those are all one person hurting another person.
Gay marriage is two consenting adults both doing something they want to do. It's pretty much the opposite of those examples.
Your "argument" is a perfect illustration that the only real objection to this is I DON'T LIKE IT. Basically "it's wrong because I (or God or Jesus) think it's wrong".
Do you see Jewish people insisting that it be illegal for everyone to eat pork? No. So quit trying to impose your religion on everyone else.
Reading some of these comments has just alarmed me, how intolerant and prejudice people are.
I am not gay, I am a heterosexual male with a partner.
I do not know where to begin, some of the posts here convey and articulate such a unbelievably small and incapable consciousness. I do not even know where to begin with what is so wrong and medieval with the opinions and statements.
One statement regarding teaching morals and stopping children from being educated about gay marriages etc. I feel disgust and sympathy for that person, that you would shield, hide, deflect and tarnish the education of your own children. To not allow them to make a rational decision based on all the facts they can posses. To decide that you will shape their opinion on what you believe with your apparent meagre understanding of the human species.
Your own opinion was derived from what you were shown as a child, what you were taught was except-able in "society" monogamy white is superior to black etc. These are all societies constraints, 50 years ago in the USA people were not allowed to do things that are now considered fundamental rights.
Try to see the evolution of our species in the scale of history and "how the US is now is how it should be" is wrong. It is evolving (for better or worse?) and is still making its journey.
This has just reminded me how humans are not as enlightened as we make out and believe. How some people, live such a sheltered pathetic life.
Marriage is between a man and a woman.... I do not know if you people are even capable of thinking or considering possibilities.
Some people on this board are a real disgrace to the human race.
It's wrong because it's wrong! Wow, great argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by YTV
Just like pedophilia is wrong.
Paedophilia is wrong because children are not fully developed adults and therefore do not have the mental or emotional capacity to consent to sexual activity. Being a victim of paedophilia is highly likely to permanently mentally, emotionally and possibly physically damage a person. Everyone has the right not to be permanently damaged in said manner and therefore peadophilia is wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YTV
Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong.
Stabbing is "wrong" because we think everyone should have to right to go about their normal business without being stabbed, because being stabbed isn't much fun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by YTV
Just like touching your sister is wrong.
If siblings don't have children together and are consenting adults how does it harm you or anyone else if they sleep together? I sincerely hope that that just made your (and all other pro-8 folk) heads explode so I don't have to read any more of your drivel.
Why all the tension about this? really, I am 23, maybe I m young and ignorant, but really, what is the problem with guys marrying guys, girls marrying girls, and such.
I see a society where a few Christians can dictate their doctorine on everyone, this happens with many issues:
no "dirty words" or "graphic images" can be on TV, and who has the ruler for dirty words and graphic imagery? not a set of standards, but the unwritten and oft unpredictable whims of a wacky fringe group of Christians.
Abstanance education, keeping kids ignorant about their bodies is a GREAT way to curb risky behavior, and to whom do we owe thanks for this? Christian groups.
And abortion: I really don't like it but really, these people think that senators congressmen and presidents can change that...THEY CANT without a constitutional convention, 30 years of case law is really hard to undo, and no one president can do it, but these churches (I have attended several and heard the same at each) say that you should vote for candidate X because he is against abortion, they dont care about any other issues, and they abuse the pulpit to instill this in their congregations
All of the sudden I am inspired to coin a phrase: "Big Christianity" I want to make a distinction between the flock and the handful of rotten "shepherds" that profit at the expense of society as a whole. The organizations who appose gay marriage are giant institutions, the Liberty University, Focus on the Family, Parents TV Council, and so on. these places get their money from well meaning churches with the purist of intent, as the churches buy their supplemental teaching materials, then these orgs take their money and use it to make everything that doesn't fit their mold look "evil".
2 guys getting mrried is just fine, so what, Isnt it healthier for all of us to have those that are gay living in the open rather than having to be so secretive about it? I mean really, gay guys should not have to resort to meeting in nature preserves, just let them do what they want in the privacy of their homes or hotels like streight folks.
I truly do not understand the homophobia of my parents generation, but maybe this is the generation to change that.
(I was raised Christian and am still in that camp, although not as firmly as I used to be)
I am sorry if I offended anyone in this long winded rant, it just felt good to say it.
Speaking of offending people, can we make a distinction between Christians and American Christians? Don't want to offend Christians.
( i hope that liberal Americans will understand that comment in the spirit I intended )
( Speaking of liberal, when did liberal and liberty come to mean such different things to some people? )
I think it is pointless and silly for Apple to be making a stance on these issues. Especially being that in California same sex couples receive virtually the same legal protections as married couples; namely rights of property, tax rights, retirement program rights, employment rights, and other legal benefits. I am completely in favor of all these benefits and hope to see them adopted nationwide.
But here are a few points to explain why I am voting YES on Prop 8. My position is the same as both presidential candidates and their running mates (as were clearly stated in recent VP debate) in maintaining the traditional definition of "marriage" as being between one man and one woman.
I would also be more than happy to provide additional citations for any of these claims.
What do those opposing Proposition 8 want?
1. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex marriage taught in school, starting with kindergarten, as being exactly the same as marriage between a man and a woman. They want this teaching campaign ? that sexual preference does not matter ? to begin even before children develop their sexual identities, which will be confusing and destabilizing to our children.
2. Those opposing Proposition 8 would like that campaign to occur at taxpayer expense, as all textbooks in California will be required to be changed to describe marriage as genderless.
3. Those opposing Proposition 8 insist that this propaganda campaign must occur without parental consent or notice.
4. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex couples to be able to force their right to adopt a young baby even when it will compete with and replace a family with a mother and father, although having a mother and a father is always in the best interest of every baby.
5. Those opposing Proposition 8 seek to close down adoption clinics and religious welfare agencies of those who oppose same sex marriage (just as has happened already in Massachusetts), as they place the right to same sex marriage on a collision course with the right to free speech and freedom of religion of those with whom they disagree, when those clinics are a crucial help to the people of this State.
6. Those opposing Proposition 8 do not want people in a same sex union to be properly questioned when they try to adopt young adults of their same sex ? for example, two married men seeking to adopt a 12-year old boy. In short, same sex couples do not want to be treated any differently than a couple consisting of a man and woman ? even in circumstances where there are differences and questions should be asked.
These are just a few points. You are free to disagree. By definition, tolerance means tolerating differences. I am not forcing you to agree with me, but I ask that this discussion continue in a respectful way.
Just a couple thoughts:
1. Young children understand these things better than most adults. Using this logic we shouldn't teach children multiple languages. After all if they haven't fully developed their English speaking skills another language could confuse them.
2. There are textbooks that talk about marriage?
3. What propaganda ?
4. Gender doesn't have a thing to do with being a qualified parent. Crack hoes and their pimps do not make better parents than two loving/stable homosexuals
5. Private adoption agencies can have whatever criteria they want. My sister works for one that requires the parents to be Christian. Do I think it's right? No, but I respect that private organizations have that right.
6. There is a difference between pedophiles and homosexuals.
Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.
The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.
Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
It marginalizes the importance of marriage.
Are you in the US? I ask, because with a greater than 50% failure rate as it is, marriage has marginalized its validity itself without gays. Britney Spears didn't need gays to invalidate her 55 hour wedding either. When straight people get their crap together, then let's talk again about the validity and importance of the institution.
And again, children and animals are not able to enter into binding contracts. That is a false argument.
Speaking of offending people, can we make a distinction between Christians and American Christians? Don't want to offend Christians.
I guess that is what I meant by "big Christianity" mopst christians, in and outside the US find the actions of these groups downright horrible, and I was trying to express that. I am a Christian, but I cant stand these organizations. The rank and file US christians are just inadvertantly contributing via tithes and such.
That's completely false, you're just buying into their propaganda.
I don't think so. The following instances are not "propaganda" but actually occurring now.
Just a few weeks ago, a first grade public school class in San Francisco was taken on a field trip to a lesbian wedding at City Hall, officiated by Mayor Gavin Newsom. School officials said they wished to provide their five and six year old students a ?teachable moment.?
This week in Hayward, CA: Parents at a K-8 charter school in Hayward were shocked to learn this week the extent to which their school is promoting gay and lesbian ideals to their daughter in kindergarten. The parents were shocked to see a poster announcing that "Coming Out Day" will be celebrated at the school this coming Thursday, October 23.
More widely known, there is the book "The King and King" distributed and used in public elementary schools in Boston.
I think it oversteps the purposes of the public schools to push any of this, especially in elementary schools. And by changing the definition of marriage, parents have no legal right or reason to object.
I guess that is what I meant by "big Christianity" mopst christians, in and outside the US find the actions of these groups downright horrible, and I was trying to express that. I am a Christian, but I cant stand these organizations. The rank and file US christians are just inadvertantly contributing via tithes and such.
I don't think so. The following instances are not "propaganda" but actually occurring now.
Just a few weeks ago, a first grade public school class in San Francisco was taken on a field trip to a lesbian wedding at City Hall, officiated by Mayor Gavin Newsom. School officials said they wished to provide their five and six year old students a ?teachable moment.?
This week in Hayward, CA: Parents at a K-8 charter school in Hayward were shocked to learn this week the extent to which their school is promoting gay and lesbian ideals to their daughter in kindergarten. The parents were shocked to see a poster announcing that "Coming Out Day" will be celebrated at the school this coming Thursday, October 23.
More widely known, there is the book "The King and King" distributed and used in public elementary schools in Boston.
I think it oversteps the purposes of the public schools to push any of this, especially in elementary schools. And by changing the definition of marriage, parents have no legal right or reason to object.
heaven forbid children learn about more than one view or opinion.
I believe the best darwinian explanation of homosexuality I've found is that homosexuals tend to act as support for their family and extended family (there is statistical evidence for this outside modern societies) since they're less likely to have kids. Their relatives are therefore more likely to have offspring that will survive and so similar genes are spread which indirectly propagates genetic homosexual predispositions.
Interesting theory but I am not sure that there is much empirical evidence to support this. If there is, please refer me to to the appropriate scientific studies.
I think that it is equally or perhaps more likely (based Occam's razor) that homosexuality is simply a maladaptive behavior resulting from genetics and/or the failure of behavioral imprinting. It takes a lot of arm waving to explain how reduced individual fitness results in increased group fitness. Perhaps this is so sometimes, but on many occasions it is probably simply maladaptive.
Please note, however, that morality is a different issue than evolutionary adaptiveness because many things that are moral are maladaptive and many things that are immoral are adaptive.
1. Young children understand these things better than most adults. Using this logic we shouldn't teach children multiple languages. After all if they haven't fully developed their English speaking skills another language could confuse them.
2. There are textbooks that talk about marriage?
3. What propaganda ?
4. Gender doesn't have a thing to do with being a qualified parent. Crack hoes and their pimps do not make better parents than two loving/stable homosexuals
5. Private adoption agencies can have whatever criteria they want. My sister works for one that requires the parents to be Christian. Do I think it's right? No, but I respect that private organizations have that right.
6. There is a difference between pedophiles and homosexuals.
1. I disagree that young children have fully developed their sexuality. Let them develop it on their own.
2. Yes, but that may be a stretch.
3. "The King and King"
4. I agree that same sex couples may provide a much better environment than crack hoes or pimps. I also agree with the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child that a child deserves a mother and father.
5. Not true. And this is what is most important. As of March 2006, Boston Catholic Charities was forced to pull out of adoption services, rather than comply with Massachusetts law that requires adoption agencies not to discriminate against homosexual couples.
6. True, but this could legally not be investigated or considered.
Comments
A.) I don't care how many customers or employees this affects, Apple still has no business supporting social issues. It is a democratic vote by the people, and everyone else needs to shut their face. The PEOPLE will decide how they want to be governed. Majority rules in a democratic situation. Deal with it. In fact, I think it will hurt Apple more, as MORE people object to the idea overall. Homosexual marriage has historically been voted down time and time again, though single legislating judges feel it is their right to over rule the PEOPLE.
B.) MARRIAGE IS NOT A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT! I challenge any one of you to find it in the Constitution. You will not/cannot find it. So therefore, the 14th Amendment DOES NOT protect MARRIAGE (homosexual or otherwise) for it's citizens.
Do you honestly believe that civil rights like racial and woman suffrage and the abolition of slavery should be wiped out because they weren't part of the original constitution????
What do those opposing Proposition 8 want?
1. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex marriage taught in school, starting with kindergarten, as being exactly the same as marriage between a man and a woman. They want this teaching campaign ? that sexual preference does not matter ? to begin even before children develop their sexual identities, which will be confusing and destabilizing to our children.
2. Those opposing Proposition 8 would like that campaign to occur at taxpayer expense, as all textbooks in California will be required to be changed to describe marriage as genderless.
3. Those opposing Proposition 8 insist that this propaganda campaign must occur without parental consent or notice.
4. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex couples to be able to force their right to adopt a young baby even when it will compete with and replace a family with a mother and father, although having a mother and a father is always in the best interest of every baby.
5. Those opposing Proposition 8 seek to close down adoption clinics and religious welfare agencies of those who oppose same sex marriage (just as has happened already in Massachusetts), as they place the right to same sex marriage on a collision course with the right to free speech and freedom of religion of those with whom they disagree, when those clinics are a crucial help to the people of this State.
6. Those opposing Proposition 8 do not want people in a same sex union to be properly questioned when they try to adopt young adults of their same sex ? for example, two married men seeking to adopt a 12-year old boy. In short, same sex couples do not want to be treated any differently than a couple consisting of a man and woman ? even in circumstances where there are differences and questions should be asked.
Sigh... I couldn't let this pass. As an active participant in the fight against Prop 8, I can say that NONE of the people I work with have voiced ANYTHING like the points you've listed.
Please provide links to reputable news sources for these outrageous claims.
GTSC
This is not something companies should be getting involved in. They should remain politically neutral on these matters and let the govt's and states battle it out.
It's not a political matter. It's a civil rights issue. When we see something as heinous as Prop 8 rear its head, everyone should stand up and speak out against it, including companies.
Besides, Apple is a corporate citizen of California. They have infinitely more reason to speak on the issue that ALL of the major funders of Prop 8, NONE of whom are based in California.
Sorry I'm not religious. But I do recognize that things are either right or wrong.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
Why would I be scared they would make me gay? That is the stupidest thing I ever heard. Would I be scared of becoming a pedophile if pedophilia was legalized or becoming a crackhead if crack was legalized? Seriously thats the stupidest shi I ever heard and makes negative 2 ounces of sense.
what part of two consenting ADULTS do you miss?
children don't give their informed consent, nice try at the FUD of misdirection.
I touch my sister, what? theres no physical contact between you and your sister? now THATS wrong. obviously you are very repressed, you afraid that if you touch someone, you cant hold back the man lust?
1. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex marriage taught in school, starting with kindergarten, as being exactly the same as marriage between a man and a woman. They want this teaching campaign ? that sexual preference does not matter ? to begin even before children develop their sexual identities, which will be confusing and destabilizing to our children.
That's completely false, you're just buying into their propaganda.
I see a society where a few Christians can dictate their doctorine on everyone, this happens with many issues:
- no "dirty words" or "graphic images" can be on TV, and who has the ruler for dirty words and graphic imagery? not a set of standards, but the unwritten and oft unpredictable whims of a wacky fringe group of Christians.
- Abstanance education, keeping kids ignorant about their bodies is a GREAT way to curb risky behavior, and to whom do we owe thanks for this? Christian groups.
- And abortion: I really don't like it but really, these people think that senators congressmen and presidents can change that...THEY CANT without a constitutional convention, 30 years of case law is really hard to undo, and no one president can do it, but these churches (I have attended several and heard the same at each) say that you should vote for candidate X because he is against abortion, they dont care about any other issues, and they abuse the pulpit to instill this in their congregations
All of the sudden I am inspired to coin a phrase: "Big Christianity" I want to make a distinction between the flock and the handful of rotten "shepherds" that profit at the expense of society as a whole. The organizations who appose gay marriage are giant institutions, the Liberty University, Focus on the Family, Parents TV Council, and so on. these places get their money from well meaning churches with the purist of intent, as the churches buy their supplemental teaching materials, then these orgs take their money and use it to make everything that doesn't fit their mold look "evil".2 guys getting mrried is just fine, so what, Isnt it healthier for all of us to have those that are gay living in the open rather than having to be so secretive about it? I mean really, gay guys should not have to resort to meeting in nature preserves, just let them do what they want in the privacy of their homes or hotels like streight folks.
I truly do not understand the homophobia of my parents generation, but maybe this is the generation to change that.
(I was raised Christian and am still in that camp, although not as firmly as I used to be)
I am sorry if I offended anyone in this long winded rant, it just felt good to say it.
Here in Denmark Gay marriges have been legal for decades.
Why you (The States) haven´t come out of the middle ages yet regarding this issue I can´t understand???
THEREFORE I SAY GOOOOOO APPLE!!!!!!
Many children have had good upbringings and competent parenting from loving parents here, wether it was mom and mom or dad and dad parenting! IT´S ALL ABOUT THE LOVE!!! ...Not restrictions. No one can and should decide whom a person loves but the individual himself/herself!
Apple has gone "green". You don´t think that´s political!? Why is this so different? In the board room they have disgussed this and they also know that this will ensure them many new customers from generations to come. This is pleasing the youth... which is Apple´s future. So why not do the right thing AND win over a larger customer base?!
Don´t hide who you are...
Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.
The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.
Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
It marginalizes the importance of marriage.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
Your argument that consensual sex between two adults is somehow synonymous with the rape of a child or an erratic violent attack shows just how little grasp you have of the topic and/or how likely that #8 will be easily opposed next Tuesday.
I am not in California, but my state had a similar proposition opposing this civil right. I proudly voted against it.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong. Just like pedophilia is wrong. Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong. Just like touching your sister is wrong. Its just plain wrong.
No, it's not like any of those at all.
Those are all one person hurting another person.
Gay marriage is two consenting adults both doing something they want to do. It's pretty much the opposite of those examples.
Your "argument" is a perfect illustration that the only real objection to this is I DON'T LIKE IT. Basically "it's wrong because I (or God or Jesus) think it's wrong".
Do you see Jewish people insisting that it be illegal for everyone to eat pork? No. So quit trying to impose your religion on everyone else.
Reading some of these comments has just alarmed me, how intolerant and prejudice people are.
I am not gay, I am a heterosexual male with a partner.
I do not know where to begin, some of the posts here convey and articulate such a unbelievably small and incapable consciousness. I do not even know where to begin with what is so wrong and medieval with the opinions and statements.
One statement regarding teaching morals and stopping children from being educated about gay marriages etc. I feel disgust and sympathy for that person, that you would shield, hide, deflect and tarnish the education of your own children. To not allow them to make a rational decision based on all the facts they can posses. To decide that you will shape their opinion on what you believe with your apparent meagre understanding of the human species.
Your own opinion was derived from what you were shown as a child, what you were taught was except-able in "society" monogamy white is superior to black etc. These are all societies constraints, 50 years ago in the USA people were not allowed to do things that are now considered fundamental rights.
Try to see the evolution of our species in the scale of history and "how the US is now is how it should be" is wrong. It is evolving (for better or worse?) and is still making its journey.
This has just reminded me how humans are not as enlightened as we make out and believe. How some people, live such a sheltered pathetic life.
Marriage is between a man and a woman.... I do not know if you people are even capable of thinking or considering possibilities.
Some people on this board are a real disgrace to the human race.
Its so bad, bacause its wrong.
It's wrong because it's wrong! Wow, great argument
Just like pedophilia is wrong.
Paedophilia is wrong because children are not fully developed adults and therefore do not have the mental or emotional capacity to consent to sexual activity. Being a victim of paedophilia is highly likely to permanently mentally, emotionally and possibly physically damage a person. Everyone has the right not to be permanently damaged in said manner and therefore peadophilia is wrong.
Just like stabbing random old ladies is wrong.
Stabbing is "wrong" because we think everyone should have to right to go about their normal business without being stabbed, because being stabbed isn't much fun.
Just like touching your sister is wrong.
If siblings don't have children together and are consenting adults how does it harm you or anyone else if they sleep together? I sincerely hope that that just made your (and all other pro-8 folk) heads explode so I don't have to read any more of your drivel.
Why all the tension about this? really, I am 23, maybe I m young and ignorant, but really, what is the problem with guys marrying guys, girls marrying girls, and such.
I see a society where a few Christians can dictate their doctorine on everyone, this happens with many issues:
- no "dirty words" or "graphic images" can be on TV, and who has the ruler for dirty words and graphic imagery? not a set of standards, but the unwritten and oft unpredictable whims of a wacky fringe group of Christians.
- Abstanance education, keeping kids ignorant about their bodies is a GREAT way to curb risky behavior, and to whom do we owe thanks for this? Christian groups.
- And abortion: I really don't like it but really, these people think that senators congressmen and presidents can change that...THEY CANT without a constitutional convention, 30 years of case law is really hard to undo, and no one president can do it, but these churches (I have attended several and heard the same at each) say that you should vote for candidate X because he is against abortion, they dont care about any other issues, and they abuse the pulpit to instill this in their congregations
All of the sudden I am inspired to coin a phrase: "Big Christianity" I want to make a distinction between the flock and the handful of rotten "shepherds" that profit at the expense of society as a whole. The organizations who appose gay marriage are giant institutions, the Liberty University, Focus on the Family, Parents TV Council, and so on. these places get their money from well meaning churches with the purist of intent, as the churches buy their supplemental teaching materials, then these orgs take their money and use it to make everything that doesn't fit their mold look "evil".2 guys getting mrried is just fine, so what, Isnt it healthier for all of us to have those that are gay living in the open rather than having to be so secretive about it? I mean really, gay guys should not have to resort to meeting in nature preserves, just let them do what they want in the privacy of their homes or hotels like streight folks.
I truly do not understand the homophobia of my parents generation, but maybe this is the generation to change that.
(I was raised Christian and am still in that camp, although not as firmly as I used to be)
I am sorry if I offended anyone in this long winded rant, it just felt good to say it.
Speaking of offending people, can we make a distinction between Christians and American Christians? Don't want to offend Christians.
( i hope that liberal Americans will understand that comment in the spirit I intended )
( Speaking of liberal, when did liberal and liberty come to mean such different things to some people? )
I think it is pointless and silly for Apple to be making a stance on these issues. Especially being that in California same sex couples receive virtually the same legal protections as married couples; namely rights of property, tax rights, retirement program rights, employment rights, and other legal benefits. I am completely in favor of all these benefits and hope to see them adopted nationwide.
But here are a few points to explain why I am voting YES on Prop 8. My position is the same as both presidential candidates and their running mates (as were clearly stated in recent VP debate) in maintaining the traditional definition of "marriage" as being between one man and one woman.
I would also be more than happy to provide additional citations for any of these claims.
What do those opposing Proposition 8 want?
1. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex marriage taught in school, starting with kindergarten, as being exactly the same as marriage between a man and a woman. They want this teaching campaign ? that sexual preference does not matter ? to begin even before children develop their sexual identities, which will be confusing and destabilizing to our children.
2. Those opposing Proposition 8 would like that campaign to occur at taxpayer expense, as all textbooks in California will be required to be changed to describe marriage as genderless.
3. Those opposing Proposition 8 insist that this propaganda campaign must occur without parental consent or notice.
4. Those opposing Proposition 8 want same sex couples to be able to force their right to adopt a young baby even when it will compete with and replace a family with a mother and father, although having a mother and a father is always in the best interest of every baby.
5. Those opposing Proposition 8 seek to close down adoption clinics and religious welfare agencies of those who oppose same sex marriage (just as has happened already in Massachusetts), as they place the right to same sex marriage on a collision course with the right to free speech and freedom of religion of those with whom they disagree, when those clinics are a crucial help to the people of this State.
6. Those opposing Proposition 8 do not want people in a same sex union to be properly questioned when they try to adopt young adults of their same sex ? for example, two married men seeking to adopt a 12-year old boy. In short, same sex couples do not want to be treated any differently than a couple consisting of a man and woman ? even in circumstances where there are differences and questions should be asked.
These are just a few points. You are free to disagree. By definition, tolerance means tolerating differences. I am not forcing you to agree with me, but I ask that this discussion continue in a respectful way.
Just a couple thoughts:
1. Young children understand these things better than most adults. Using this logic we shouldn't teach children multiple languages. After all if they haven't fully developed their English speaking skills another language could confuse them.
2. There are textbooks that talk about marriage?
3. What propaganda ?
4. Gender doesn't have a thing to do with being a qualified parent. Crack hoes and their pimps do not make better parents than two loving/stable homosexuals
5. Private adoption agencies can have whatever criteria they want. My sister works for one that requires the parents to be Christian. Do I think it's right? No, but I respect that private organizations have that right.
6. There is a difference between pedophiles and homosexuals.
Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.
The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.
Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
It marginalizes the importance of marriage.
Are you in the US? I ask, because with a greater than 50% failure rate as it is, marriage has marginalized its validity itself without gays. Britney Spears didn't need gays to invalidate her 55 hour wedding either. When straight people get their crap together, then let's talk again about the validity and importance of the institution.
And again, children and animals are not able to enter into binding contracts. That is a false argument.
Speaking of offending people, can we make a distinction between Christians and American Christians? Don't want to offend Christians.
I guess that is what I meant by "big Christianity" mopst christians, in and outside the US find the actions of these groups downright horrible, and I was trying to express that. I am a Christian, but I cant stand these organizations. The rank and file US christians are just inadvertantly contributing via tithes and such.
That's completely false, you're just buying into their propaganda.
I don't think so. The following instances are not "propaganda" but actually occurring now.
Just a few weeks ago, a first grade public school class in San Francisco was taken on a field trip to a lesbian wedding at City Hall, officiated by Mayor Gavin Newsom. School officials said they wished to provide their five and six year old students a ?teachable moment.?
This week in Hayward, CA: Parents at a K-8 charter school in Hayward were shocked to learn this week the extent to which their school is promoting gay and lesbian ideals to their daughter in kindergarten. The parents were shocked to see a poster announcing that "Coming Out Day" will be celebrated at the school this coming Thursday, October 23.
More widely known, there is the book "The King and King" distributed and used in public elementary schools in Boston.
I think it oversteps the purposes of the public schools to push any of this, especially in elementary schools. And by changing the definition of marriage, parents have no legal right or reason to object.
I guess that is what I meant by "big Christianity" mopst christians, in and outside the US find the actions of these groups downright horrible, and I was trying to express that. I am a Christian, but I cant stand these organizations. The rank and file US christians are just inadvertantly contributing via tithes and such.
Desmond Tutu for president. ( Is it too late? )
I don't think so. The following instances are not "propaganda" but actually occurring now.
Just a few weeks ago, a first grade public school class in San Francisco was taken on a field trip to a lesbian wedding at City Hall, officiated by Mayor Gavin Newsom. School officials said they wished to provide their five and six year old students a ?teachable moment.?
This week in Hayward, CA: Parents at a K-8 charter school in Hayward were shocked to learn this week the extent to which their school is promoting gay and lesbian ideals to their daughter in kindergarten. The parents were shocked to see a poster announcing that "Coming Out Day" will be celebrated at the school this coming Thursday, October 23.
More widely known, there is the book "The King and King" distributed and used in public elementary schools in Boston.
I think it oversteps the purposes of the public schools to push any of this, especially in elementary schools. And by changing the definition of marriage, parents have no legal right or reason to object.
heaven forbid children learn about more than one view or opinion.
I believe the best darwinian explanation of homosexuality I've found is that homosexuals tend to act as support for their family and extended family (there is statistical evidence for this outside modern societies) since they're less likely to have kids. Their relatives are therefore more likely to have offspring that will survive and so similar genes are spread which indirectly propagates genetic homosexual predispositions.
Interesting theory but I am not sure that there is much empirical evidence to support this. If there is, please refer me to to the appropriate scientific studies.
I think that it is equally or perhaps more likely (based Occam's razor) that homosexuality is simply a maladaptive behavior resulting from genetics and/or the failure of behavioral imprinting. It takes a lot of arm waving to explain how reduced individual fitness results in increased group fitness. Perhaps this is so sometimes, but on many occasions it is probably simply maladaptive.
Please note, however, that morality is a different issue than evolutionary adaptiveness because many things that are moral are maladaptive and many things that are immoral are adaptive.
Just a couple thoughts:
1. Young children understand these things better than most adults. Using this logic we shouldn't teach children multiple languages. After all if they haven't fully developed their English speaking skills another language could confuse them.
2. There are textbooks that talk about marriage?
3. What propaganda ?
4. Gender doesn't have a thing to do with being a qualified parent. Crack hoes and their pimps do not make better parents than two loving/stable homosexuals
5. Private adoption agencies can have whatever criteria they want. My sister works for one that requires the parents to be Christian. Do I think it's right? No, but I respect that private organizations have that right.
6. There is a difference between pedophiles and homosexuals.
1. I disagree that young children have fully developed their sexuality. Let them develop it on their own.
2. Yes, but that may be a stretch.
3. "The King and King"
4. I agree that same sex couples may provide a much better environment than crack hoes or pimps. I also agree with the U.N. Convention on the Rights of the Child that a child deserves a mother and father.
5. Not true. And this is what is most important. As of March 2006, Boston Catholic Charities was forced to pull out of adoption services, rather than comply with Massachusetts law that requires adoption agencies not to discriminate against homosexual couples.
6. True, but this could legally not be investigated or considered.