Since that was written, Nokia have given up on Japan.
Not given up entirely, they are still selling one model.
Also, non-Japanese phone manufactures make up 2.5% of the Japanese phone market, from a business point of view, what is the point of wasting resources on a small market
Another weakness is porn, porn has been a driving force in many technologies and (as far as i know) is not readily available on Apples squeaky clean iphone/itunes.
A platform that provides more freedom in the adult department, could amass the masturbating masses.
Speaking as a slam poet, that last line is dope!
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
Sure but (again I havent checked but at a an educated guess) the App store would not approve porn apps.
Porn is also not available on itunes (as a movie). Therefore for your average human, access to porn is hampered.
My non-geek friend had his iPod Touch loaded with skin, sighs and moans within a day.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Furter
You, are an idiot. But thanks for supplying justification for moderating forums.
I am always amazed to hear that video games are a larger industry now than film or music combined. And personally considering them mostly asocial to anti-social addictions, I'm not happy about the fact. But discussing that sociological phenomenon is certainly in my wheel house.
"Adult entertainment" is now another HUGE industry that's made its way from dank, declining theatres into 10's of millions of homes. And has driven a number of technologies. Certainly we need to be able to talk about and look into the implications of that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by monstrosity
Porn was the driving force behind many technologies, streaming, SEO, file-sharing just to name a few. It is more influential than people think. I'm not saying that lack of porn will break apple, but general increased levels of freedom that will be available from Android, could well eat into Apples market share, and a contributing factor will be availability of porn and other trash.
One man's trash, another's treasure. I personally find it ironically amusing that YouTube and MySpace host unlimited vile, hateful bigoted racist and religious propaganda and the most scatalogical language available, but fall apart at the sight of a female breast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JupiterOne
Ahem, not if your average human can manage to google "iphone porn".
what he said....
Quote:
Originally Posted by digitalclips
The gentleman who criticize this subject being brought up are not history scholars obviously. I recall lectures at University in the history of art department referencing the volume of 'oil on canvas' being heavily influenced over the centuries by such matters too. Don't forget to add in the development of the camera, the development of film, the development of moving pictures ... all had massive uptake due to, shall we say, 'visual art'. The VHS tape deck's success over the superior rival is attributed to the same thing as it was far cheaper and quality wasn't the main concern for 'those uses'.
Apple should not do anything to encourage porn openly, but speaking as a share holder, Apple should not do anything to prevent whatever use an owner wishes in this area. I totally agree with you, history shows if some iPhone knock off makes porn usage very simple it may do a 'VHS over Beta' repeat.
and him or her too..... ....sex drives much of civilization even if many nerds and engineers can only dream ... ...Steve Jobs won't look good with a Puritan hat on top of that mock turtle neck.
The OS is getting slower and slower with each release.
This guy is spreading FUD. My N95 8GB is so much faster than my old N73. The rest of his analysis is pretty much void.
Quote:
My guess is that in time Samsung, like Motorola, will devote its smartphone development 100 percent to Android.
Except that Motorola haven't devoted 100% to Android. They're still making Windows Mobile phones too.
Quote:
Since that was written, Nokia have given up on Japan.
So have half of the Japanese manufacturers. Changes in Japanese law mean that it's no longer economically feasible for all but the top 3 or so manufacturers to make phones tailored to the Japanese market.
Nokia left the CDMA market for the same reason. The market was too small to support such a big R&D spend.
Quote:
Nokia continue to disenfranchise Symbian developers with a roadmap that clearly leads to Linux.
Speaking as a Symbian (and Windows Mobile) developer myself, I've seen nothing of the sort. Maemo still can't make GSM calls. It's a good few years away if it will ever happen. Remember that the iPhone also has a programming language that'll be new to a lot of developers too.
I propose an Apple Insider specific variant of Goodwin's Law: as the length of a thread increases, the probability that a poster will begin to shriek about "Apple fan boys" approaches one.
It follows that the first poster to do so has lost the argument and the thread is over.
Maemo still can't make GSM calls. It's a good few years away if it will ever happen.
There is clearly a plan to dump Symbian at the high end. But Nokia are worried about saying that too clearly. The Symbian developer community are already unhappy.
To the press, Nokia keep saying, "we are going to Linux, we're going to Linux." But the pace of the transition is very slow. If it's going to take them five years, you can see why confidence in the company is collapsing the way it is.
Android and iPhone are on sale now, and Nokia's answer seems to be to cram ever more widgets into a 3/4" thick handset, on top of a clunky OS, which will come out in six months.
Nokia have a huge marketshare. But it's theirs to lose. Phone lifetime is 18 months. Which means that 18 months into this generation of phones, we can anticipate a massive market share reductions. I reckon 1st Quarter 2009 is going to be when the bloodbath really starts. But there's some bleeding going on already.
There is clearly a plan to dump Symbian at the high end. But Nokia are worried about saying that too clearly. The Symbian developer community are already unhappy.
Really? Are you a member of the community? What Symbian apps have you been involved with?
Quote:
To the press, Nokia keep saying, "we are going to Linux, we're going to Linux."
Source? There's talk of using both but not Linux exclusively at the high end.
Quote:
Nokia have a huge marketshare. But it's theirs to lose.
Absolutely. They've lost market share before (they were down to 31% at one stage) and they've recovered before. Nokia are the Wal-Mart of the phone world and its hard to compete with them on price and volume in the long run.
Really? Are you a member of the community? What Symbian apps have you been involved with?
There's not many Symbian developers out there. But it's not hard to find their very public moaning.
This was quite an interesting post on allaboutsymbian.com
""There's a lot more to an ecosystem than openness. Developers doing both Apple and Symbian are now making more money on Apple than on Symbian. An order of magnitude more. While there's an order of magnitude more Symbian phones out there compared to iPhones.
Nokia needs to make sure developers can make that kind of money on their platform too. When that has happened, openness becomes a discussion point.""
You gotta ask why this should be the case.
Here's one clue. In the diminutive but dapper form of Simon Jeffrey.
*sigh* This is what I hate about the iPhone. People who weren't interested in phones suddenly start thinking that they know about the industry and think that the history of phones started in 2006.[\\QUOTE]
Finally someone said it out loud! And your analysis of Nokia's failure in the U.S Market propably has nailed most of the points of the real reasons (+ the fact that clamshell phones were a craze in the US which Nokia didn't seize etc.).
I mean the only other product that I can quickly think of with such marketshare is Microsoft Windows. Is it surprising, that it's market share is finally coming down? No. Will Microsoft die? No.
So please try to stay a bit more on the reality side of things. Apple is not the GOD in town, neither are the others the DEVIL in town. I don't think Nokia, Samsung HTC or RIM would have made the phones that they now have (Wave, N97) without the iPhone. iPhone has brought new life to the game and I cheer it along for that reason but at the same time I don't believe Apple is the only one that can make good phones. Competition is the pusher for innovation.
But think about the other scenario: Do you think Apple would innovate, if they had 80+% market share? I assure you they wouldn't. We need competition on the markets. Several equally strong players with the occasional market disruptor (á la iPhone and RIM) is a good thing. If Apple becomes a strong player (more models, more marketshare), good.
N97 looks like a good phone. Not necessarily designed to be an iPhone killer (there's other competition and markets to think about as well). As a device for business use for example, it may very well replace the E90 in corporate world (outside the US).
Regs, Jarkko
this can be said of any competitive market, new inovative products improve the offerings of others, mac included, when you artificially support one over another inovation dies, and are early death for the products, company and hurts the consumer, so the auto industry should read your post, subsidizing bad products hurts the industry, so we are better off and the detroit "3" , because of the quality of the "honda" and "toyota".
the mention of the clam shell, is so right on, my nokia worked but the interface to lock thekeys was tedious so we went to clamshells, nokia took awhile, just like the MB and BMW reluctance for cup holders, there is a cultural issue. the reason for my families acceptance of the "candy bar" iphone is the INTERFACE, that others don't have.
the mention of the clam shell, is so right on, my nokia worked but the interface to lock thekeys was tedious so we went to clamshells, nokia took awhile, just like the MB and BMW reluctance for cup holders, there is a cultural issue. the reason for my families acceptance of the "candy bar" iphone is the INTERFACE, that others don't have.
i could still use voice dialing please!!!
A two keypress sequence made with the thumb is tedious? I guess that's cultural as well. Personally it used to be an automatic reflex for me. But after timer-based keylock I never bother anymore.
But I agree that the Interface is the key. The original market share rise of Nokia (in the 90s) was often largely attributed to the superior user interface that Nokia phones had as compared to the competition at that time (Ericsson, Motorola...etc.) and there was a whole department dedicated for the user experience. This was reflected in many user comments and surveys. Of course the superior supply chain management is another reason.
That's actually what puzzled me with the S60. The interface was poor (it's better now, but still not as good as it should be). This article opened my eyes:
"In the reorganization Nokia did at the end of last year, we made a commitment to create a user interface/user interaction design team. We also made a huge investment in ergonomics and user experience. We decided to [mix everyone together] to create multi-disciplinary teams of traditional product designers, color specialists, interaction designers and ergonomists."
Apparently the focus and importance of the UI had been lost and thanks to Apple, it's back. It'll take some time to change, but those who state that Nokia is out of it are calling the game over before it has properly started.
With talk about linux, Symbian foundation, UI teams, superior streamlined production and long experience of multiple markets, its now getting interesting. I hope that Nokia (and Samsung for that matter) have gotten a new drive in innovation (at least it seems to be so, these are just the first indications) and that will force apple to do the same. In the end we'll all have cheaper, more powerful and more easy to use phones/mobile computers.
Say what you will, but Apple does have at least one serious hindrance. Steve Jobs seems to look at the world from a predominately US perspective. That means he's not focusing 95% of the world population.
A two keypress sequence made with the thumb is tedious? I guess that's cultural as well. Personally it used to be an automatic reflex for me. But after timer-based keylock I never bother anymore.
But I agree that the Interface is the key. The original market share rise of Nokia (in the 90s) was often largely attributed to the superior user interface that Nokia phones had as compared to the competition at that time (Ericsson, Motorola...etc.) and there was a whole department dedicated for the user experience. This was reflected in many user comments and surveys. Of course the superior supply chain management is another reason.
That's actually what puzzled me with the S60. The interface was poor (it's better now, but still not as good as it should be). This article opened my eyes:
"In the reorganization Nokia did at the end of last year, we made a commitment to create a user interface/user interaction design team. We also made a huge investment in ergonomics and user experience. We decided to [mix everyone together] to create multi-disciplinary teams of traditional product designers, color specialists, interaction designers and ergonomists."
Apparently the focus and importance of the UI had been lost and thanks to Apple, it's back. It'll take some time to change, but those who state that Nokia is out of it are calling the game over before it has properly started.
With talk about linux, Symbian foundation, UI teams, superior streamlined production and long experience of multiple markets, its now getting interesting. I hope that Nokia (and Samsung for that matter) have gotten a new drive in innovation (at least it seems to be so, these are just the first indications) and that will force apple to do the same. In the end we'll all have cheaper, more powerful and more easy to use phones/mobile computers.
Say what you will, but Apple does have at least one serious hindrance. Steve Jobs seems to look at the world from a predominately US perspective. That means he's not focusing 95% of the world population.
Regs, Jarkko
Whatever hindrance Jobs is to a global perspective (and I'm not sure that's even true), it's more than offset by what Jobs brings to the iPhone: less is often more.
I don't know why this is so tough for the competition to grasp. They look at the iPhone and think "If we make a phone with a big touch screen and a bunch of "features" that Apple has inexplicably left off, we can win."
So they go to their engineering bullet points, and start piling on the features, and then leave it to the UI people to clean up their mess.
I don't believe Nokia has the discipline to say no to their engineers, which is what iPhone-style integration requires. We can argue about cameras and MMS and cut and paste till the cows come home, but the sales numbers don't lie. Apple starts with what they think their customers want to do, and work backwards from there.
Everybody else starts with what their engineers can do and what the marketing people want, and figure everyone will be really impressed, even if the magic is almost impossible to unlock.
Apple has many, many years of this kind of user centric UI design under their belts. Nokia has many, many years of shoveling as many features as humanly possible into their phones.
A press release claiming to have changed up the work flow doesn't change this. Being smart and disciplined about features sets and how they interact isn't something a company adopts on a whim. And it only gets worse as handsets get more powerful, because you can keep adding more bells and whistles.
Honestly, I have been and remain amazed that there don't seem to be more consumer electronics companies that get this. The difference seems to be whether or not you have a Steve Jobs that the engineering and marketing people answer to.
But he made a phone that everyone all over the world wants? What are you on about?
I was a bit unclear. I was trying to balance the discussion a bit. Not very successfully. at that What I was trying to say, that if the current big players have been napping for years with their UIs, features etc. and have now waken up (big IF), then Apple MAY be at a hindrance in the longer run with they history of disproportionate focus on the US and lack of investment in the global market. It has changed yes, but has it changed enough?
I'm saying that the iPhone is a US success and with the fresh approach has gotten a good chunk of the global smartphone market share (but not overall phone market share). Will that work GLOBALLY in the PHONE (not just smartphone) market for YEARS? I surely don't have the answer to that one and that's the thing that's puzzling me at the moment (as well as with Nokia and HTC and RIM).
I was a bit unclear. I was trying to balance the discussion a bit. Not very successfully. at that What I was trying to say, that if the current big players have been napping for years with their UIs, features etc. and have now waken up (big IF), then Apple MAY be at a hindrance in the longer run with they history of disproportionate focus on the US and lack of investment in the global market. It has changed yes, but has it changed enough?
I'm saying that the iPhone is a US success and with the fresh approach has gotten a good chunk of the global smartphone market share (but not overall phone market share). Will that work GLOBALLY in the PHONE (not just smartphone) market for YEARS? I surely don't have the answer to that one and that's the thing that's puzzling me at the moment (as well as with Nokia and HTC and RIM).
Regs, Jarkko
I don't get the impression Apple has any interest in making a big dent in the just-a-phone market.
The iPhone, despite its name, is only tangentially a phone. It's the first iteration of a mobile computing platform that includes a phone app and uses the cellular network for ubiquitous connectivity.
So, while there may be nuances to the international phone market that Apple still has things to learn about, they're only in the international phone market as a byproduct of needing access to the wireless networks-- not because they plan on making a whole bunch of low cost handsets to compete with the low end free-with-contract phones of the world.
In other words, I think the international market for the iPhone, from Apple's perspective, looks like the international market for the Mac, except without the Windows penetration acting as a barrier to adoption.
Whatever hindrance Jobs is to a global perspective (and I'm not sure that's even true), it's more than offset by what Jobs brings to the iPhone: less is often more.
....
We can argue about cameras and MMS and cut and paste till the cows come home, but the sales numbers don't lie. Apple starts with what they think their customers want to do, and work backwards from there.
I agree with your point, that user centric design is where the success comes from and where other have a lot of catching up to do, but the MMS, Picture quality and cut&paste stuff (amongst others) is actual proof of my other point. Apple is US centric. SMS & MMS is _HUGE_ globally, even more in Asia than in Europe, where kids SMS each other while sitting next to each other in the same car!
If Apple had a global view, they would have made the features that the users now use and want (not just the ones that people in the US want) into the iPhone in a very user friendly UI. This MAY be the hindrance for apple if the competition catches up on the UI side. Also take into account the brand recognition amongst the consumers globally. Apple has much less (yet) compared to the likes of Samsung, LG, Nokia etc outside the computing community and the US and if the big players look the same (full touch phone), but have a more recognizable brand, how will Apple differentiate itself?
Sure it's more a computer + iPod with some phone-stuff to it. But my question still stands: Is it automatic, that since Apple has made a good looking usable iPhone, that it will conquer the world. Also that the first responses from the big brands is the only proof that they don't get it and never can? Even when Apple sems to be US centric (2% of global market) and the others seem to be global (maybe lacking US focus)? Is it that simple?
I agree with your point, that user centric design is where the success comes from and where other have a lot of catching up to do, but the MMS, Picture quality and cut&paste stuff (amongst others) is actual proof of my other point. Apple is US centric. SMS & MMS is _HUGE_ globally, even more in Asia than in Europe, where kids SMS each other while sitting next to each other in the same car!
If Apple had a global view, they would have made the features that the users now use and want (not just the ones that people in the US want) into the iPhone in a very user friendly UI. This MAY be the hindrance for apple if the competition catches up on the UI side. Also take into account the brand recognition amongst the consumers globally. Apple has much less (yet) compared to the likes of Samsung, LG, Nokia etc outside the computing community and the US and if the big players look the same (full touch phone), but have a more recognizable brand, how will Apple differentiate itself?
Sure it's more a computer + iPod with some phone-stuff to it. But my question still stands: Is it automatic, that since Apple has made a good looking usable iPhone, that it will conquer the world. Also that the first responses from the big brands is the only proof that they don't get it and never can? Even when Apple sems to be US centric (2% of global market) and the others seem to be global (maybe lacking US focus)? Is it that simple?
Regs, Jarkko
Good points about global tastes in cell features, but I think part of that is that Apple doesn't really see itself as competing in the "cell phone" arena, and that includes not feeling compelled to automatically include features that may be considered normal for cell phones.
So it's not really that they're being US centric, but rather "Apple centric" (which may be a different kind of problem).
For instance, I don't think the iPhone doesn't include MMS because it's less popular in the US market, but because Apple (or in this case, I suspect, Jobs) thinks of it as pointless artifact of a limited cell phone infrastructure, which until recently didn't generally support "real" email. I think that decision would have been made even if US cell phone subscribers were using MMS in numbers equal to their European and Asian counterparts, because Apple wants to push past the "cell phone" market into "pocket computing."
Likewise, leaving out cut and paste isn't a decision that fails to take the measure of global tastes, rather it appears Apple made a conscious decision to rethink why cut and paste is used and build in links across apps to handle most of those cases. So I think it's a basic UI philosophy thing, rather than a case of "American cell phones users rarely use cut and paste so what's the big deal?"
That doesn't mean Apple is always right, about this stuff, or that they won't change their minds at some point, but it really seems like Apple being Apple rather than failure to take international habits seriously. They certainly find lots of ways to ignore the loudly stated preferences of their American customers, after all.
Apple starts with what they think their customers want to do, and work backwards from there.
Everybody else starts with what their engineers can do and what the marketing people want, and figure everyone will be really impressed, even if the magic is almost impossible to unlock.
Brilliant!
I have never seen a better definition of how to create a disruptive product.
Apply it to the Nintendo Wii vs. Sony's engineering led mess.
That doesn't mean Apple is always right, about this stuff, or that they won't change their minds at some point, but it really seems like Apple being Apple rather than failure to take international habits seriously. They certainly find lots of ways to ignore the loudly stated preferences of their American customers, after all.
Good points (the whole response). I really didn't think that deeply about this aspect, but I do suspect you're largely right. It seems that they may have some "we know better than the user" attitude combined with designing stuff from an end user's standpoint (even if that requirement ends up being Steve himself for all we know). But it seems to work for the time being and at least >pple has been a very disruptive one that forces change in established players (Record companies, Microsoft (Vista), Linux (Ubuntu), Nokia, Samsung, RIM).
I applaud the change and driver for it.
BTW. I think your comments on the reasons behind why the iPhone is what it is are probably the best I've seen for a long time including most "professional" writers. Unbiased in either direction and insightful. Refreshing especially on a fan forum. Just the stuff I originally registered on this site for and the reason I occasionally prod with non-conforming thoughts.
Very Interesting - Looks like Nokia is going to lose another 20% of market share.
i believe in Nokia and its experience in mobile devices. I doubt in Apple's capability to be innovated.. just cause i've seen the products they sell, to be honest, fooling a lot of americans with their products just cause they've never seen better stuff that they have in asia and Europe.
iphone is good for multi touch, but Nokia should win in the long run in the cell phone market. (that is excluding cell phone market in the US)
we all know this is all geopolitical, after all Apple is an american company. Nokia, european. You'll find a contrast in Europe and Asia VS the US cell/pc/mp3 market
Comments
Since that was written, Nokia have given up on Japan.
Not given up entirely, they are still selling one model.
Also, non-Japanese phone manufactures make up 2.5% of the Japanese phone market, from a business point of view, what is the point of wasting resources on a small market
Another weakness is porn, porn has been a driving force in many technologies and (as far as i know) is not readily available on Apples squeaky clean iphone/itunes.
A platform that provides more freedom in the adult department, could amass the masturbating masses.
Speaking as a slam poet, that last line is dope!
Sure but (again I havent checked but at a an educated guess) the App store would not approve porn apps.
Porn is also not available on itunes (as a movie). Therefore for your average human, access to porn is hampered.
My non-geek friend had his iPod Touch loaded with skin, sighs and moans within a day.
You, are an idiot. But thanks for supplying justification for moderating forums.
I am always amazed to hear that video games are a larger industry now than film or music combined. And personally considering them mostly asocial to anti-social addictions, I'm not happy about the fact. But discussing that sociological phenomenon is certainly in my wheel house.
"Adult entertainment" is now another HUGE industry that's made its way from dank, declining theatres into 10's of millions of homes. And has driven a number of technologies. Certainly we need to be able to talk about and look into the implications of that.
Porn was the driving force behind many technologies, streaming, SEO, file-sharing just to name a few. It is more influential than people think. I'm not saying that lack of porn will break apple, but general increased levels of freedom that will be available from Android, could well eat into Apples market share, and a contributing factor will be availability of porn and other trash.
One man's trash, another's treasure. I personally find it ironically amusing that YouTube and MySpace host unlimited vile, hateful bigoted racist and religious propaganda and the most scatalogical language available, but fall apart at the sight of a female breast.
Ahem, not if your average human can manage to google "iphone porn".
what he said....
The gentleman who criticize this subject being brought up are not history scholars obviously. I recall lectures at University in the history of art department referencing the volume of 'oil on canvas' being heavily influenced over the centuries by such matters too. Don't forget to add in the development of the camera, the development of film, the development of moving pictures ... all had massive uptake due to, shall we say, 'visual art'. The VHS tape deck's success over the superior rival is attributed to the same thing as it was far cheaper and quality wasn't the main concern for 'those uses'.
Apple should not do anything to encourage porn openly, but speaking as a share holder, Apple should not do anything to prevent whatever use an owner wishes in this area. I totally agree with you, history shows if some iPhone knock off makes porn usage very simple it may do a 'VHS over Beta' repeat.
and him or her too..... ....sex drives much of civilization even if many nerds and engineers can only dream
Because Nokia doens't know any other way to do this, and as you said you don't use it.
If you hadn't just s aid
"You don't zoom in and out.... BECAUSE YOU CAN'T."
It would still be a useless arguement
The OS is getting slower and slower with each release.
This guy is spreading FUD. My N95 8GB is so much faster than my old N73. The rest of his analysis is pretty much void.
My guess is that in time Samsung, like Motorola, will devote its smartphone development 100 percent to Android.
Except that Motorola haven't devoted 100% to Android. They're still making Windows Mobile phones too.
Since that was written, Nokia have given up on Japan.
So have half of the Japanese manufacturers. Changes in Japanese law mean that it's no longer economically feasible for all but the top 3 or so manufacturers to make phones tailored to the Japanese market.
Nokia left the CDMA market for the same reason. The market was too small to support such a big R&D spend.
Nokia continue to disenfranchise Symbian developers with a roadmap that clearly leads to Linux.
Speaking as a Symbian (and Windows Mobile) developer myself, I've seen nothing of the sort. Maemo still can't make GSM calls. It's a good few years away if it will ever happen. Remember that the iPhone also has a programming language that'll be new to a lot of developers too.
It follows that the first poster to do so has lost the argument and the thread is over.
Maemo still can't make GSM calls. It's a good few years away if it will ever happen.
There is clearly a plan to dump Symbian at the high end. But Nokia are worried about saying that too clearly. The Symbian developer community are already unhappy.
To the press, Nokia keep saying, "we are going to Linux, we're going to Linux." But the pace of the transition is very slow. If it's going to take them five years, you can see why confidence in the company is collapsing the way it is.
Android and iPhone are on sale now, and Nokia's answer seems to be to cram ever more widgets into a 3/4" thick handset, on top of a clunky OS, which will come out in six months.
Nokia have a huge marketshare. But it's theirs to lose. Phone lifetime is 18 months. Which means that 18 months into this generation of phones, we can anticipate a massive market share reductions. I reckon 1st Quarter 2009 is going to be when the bloodbath really starts. But there's some bleeding going on already.
C.
There is clearly a plan to dump Symbian at the high end. But Nokia are worried about saying that too clearly. The Symbian developer community are already unhappy.
Really? Are you a member of the community? What Symbian apps have you been involved with?
To the press, Nokia keep saying, "we are going to Linux, we're going to Linux."
Source? There's talk of using both but not Linux exclusively at the high end.
Nokia have a huge marketshare. But it's theirs to lose.
Absolutely. They've lost market share before (they were down to 31% at one stage) and they've recovered before. Nokia are the Wal-Mart of the phone world and its hard to compete with them on price and volume in the long run.
Really? Are you a member of the community? What Symbian apps have you been involved with?
There's not many Symbian developers out there. But it's not hard to find their very public moaning.
This was quite an interesting post on allaboutsymbian.com
""There's a lot more to an ecosystem than openness. Developers doing both Apple and Symbian are now making more money on Apple than on Symbian. An order of magnitude more. While there's an order of magnitude more Symbian phones out there compared to iPhones.
Nokia needs to make sure developers can make that kind of money on their platform too. When that has happened, openness becomes a discussion point.""
You gotta ask why this should be the case.
Here's one clue. In the diminutive but dapper form of Simon Jeffrey.
http://kotaku.com/5026060/sega-the-i...-the-dreamcast
C.
There's not many Symbian developers out there. But it's not hard to find their very public moaning.
Yes there is public moaning, but what proof do you have that there is "not many" Symbian developers out there?
*sigh* This is what I hate about the iPhone. People who weren't interested in phones suddenly start thinking that they know about the industry and think that the history of phones started in 2006.[\\QUOTE]
Finally someone said it out loud! And your analysis of Nokia's failure in the U.S Market propably has nailed most of the points of the real reasons (+ the fact that clamshell phones were a craze in the US which Nokia didn't seize etc.).
I mean the only other product that I can quickly think of with such marketshare is Microsoft Windows. Is it surprising, that it's market share is finally coming down? No. Will Microsoft die? No.
So please try to stay a bit more on the reality side of things. Apple is not the GOD in town, neither are the others the DEVIL in town. I don't think Nokia, Samsung HTC or RIM would have made the phones that they now have (Wave, N97) without the iPhone. iPhone has brought new life to the game and I cheer it along for that reason but at the same time I don't believe Apple is the only one that can make good phones. Competition is the pusher for innovation.
But think about the other scenario: Do you think Apple would innovate, if they had 80+% market share? I assure you they wouldn't. We need competition on the markets. Several equally strong players with the occasional market disruptor (á la iPhone and RIM) is a good thing. If Apple becomes a strong player (more models, more marketshare), good.
N97 looks like a good phone. Not necessarily designed to be an iPhone killer (there's other competition and markets to think about as well). As a device for business use for example, it may very well replace the E90 in corporate world (outside the US).
Regs, Jarkko
this can be said of any competitive market, new inovative products improve the offerings of others, mac included, when you artificially support one over another inovation dies, and are early death for the products, company and hurts the consumer, so the auto industry should read your post, subsidizing bad products hurts the industry, so we are better off and the detroit "3" , because of the quality of the "honda" and "toyota".
the mention of the clam shell, is so right on, my nokia worked but the interface to lock thekeys was tedious so we went to clamshells, nokia took awhile, just like the MB and BMW reluctance for cup holders, there is a cultural issue. the reason for my families acceptance of the "candy bar" iphone is the INTERFACE, that others don't have.
i could still use voice dialing please!!!
the mention of the clam shell, is so right on, my nokia worked but the interface to lock thekeys was tedious so we went to clamshells, nokia took awhile, just like the MB and BMW reluctance for cup holders, there is a cultural issue. the reason for my families acceptance of the "candy bar" iphone is the INTERFACE, that others don't have.
i could still use voice dialing please!!!
A two keypress sequence made with the thumb is tedious? I guess that's cultural as well. Personally it used to be an automatic reflex for me. But after timer-based keylock I never bother anymore.
But I agree that the Interface is the key. The original market share rise of Nokia (in the 90s) was often largely attributed to the superior user interface that Nokia phones had as compared to the competition at that time (Ericsson, Motorola...etc.) and there was a whole department dedicated for the user experience. This was reflected in many user comments and surveys. Of course the superior supply chain management is another reason.
That's actually what puzzled me with the S60. The interface was poor (it's better now, but still not as good as it should be). This article opened my eyes:
http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/00...air_curtis.htm
"In the reorganization Nokia did at the end of last year, we made a commitment to create a user interface/user interaction design team. We also made a huge investment in ergonomics and user experience. We decided to [mix everyone together] to create multi-disciplinary teams of traditional product designers, color specialists, interaction designers and ergonomists."
Apparently the focus and importance of the UI had been lost and thanks to Apple, it's back. It'll take some time to change, but those who state that Nokia is out of it are calling the game over before it has properly started.
With talk about linux, Symbian foundation, UI teams, superior streamlined production and long experience of multiple markets, its now getting interesting. I hope that Nokia (and Samsung for that matter) have gotten a new drive in innovation (at least it seems to be so, these are just the first indications) and that will force apple to do the same. In the end we'll all have cheaper, more powerful and more easy to use phones/mobile computers.
Say what you will, but Apple does have at least one serious hindrance. Steve Jobs seems to look at the world from a predominately US perspective. That means he's not focusing 95% of the world population.
Regs, Jarkko
Anyway speaking of Symian Freak look what else they leaked today......And they dont normally leak anything Nokia wise unless its true.
A two keypress sequence made with the thumb is tedious? I guess that's cultural as well. Personally it used to be an automatic reflex for me. But after timer-based keylock I never bother anymore.
But I agree that the Interface is the key. The original market share rise of Nokia (in the 90s) was often largely attributed to the superior user interface that Nokia phones had as compared to the competition at that time (Ericsson, Motorola...etc.) and there was a whole department dedicated for the user experience. This was reflected in many user comments and surveys. Of course the superior supply chain management is another reason.
That's actually what puzzled me with the S60. The interface was poor (it's better now, but still not as good as it should be). This article opened my eyes:
http://www.symbian-freak.com/news/00...air_curtis.htm
"In the reorganization Nokia did at the end of last year, we made a commitment to create a user interface/user interaction design team. We also made a huge investment in ergonomics and user experience. We decided to [mix everyone together] to create multi-disciplinary teams of traditional product designers, color specialists, interaction designers and ergonomists."
Apparently the focus and importance of the UI had been lost and thanks to Apple, it's back. It'll take some time to change, but those who state that Nokia is out of it are calling the game over before it has properly started.
With talk about linux, Symbian foundation, UI teams, superior streamlined production and long experience of multiple markets, its now getting interesting. I hope that Nokia (and Samsung for that matter) have gotten a new drive in innovation (at least it seems to be so, these are just the first indications) and that will force apple to do the same. In the end we'll all have cheaper, more powerful and more easy to use phones/mobile computers.
Say what you will, but Apple does have at least one serious hindrance. Steve Jobs seems to look at the world from a predominately US perspective. That means he's not focusing 95% of the world population.
Regs, Jarkko
Whatever hindrance Jobs is to a global perspective (and I'm not sure that's even true), it's more than offset by what Jobs brings to the iPhone: less is often more.
I don't know why this is so tough for the competition to grasp. They look at the iPhone and think "If we make a phone with a big touch screen and a bunch of "features" that Apple has inexplicably left off, we can win."
So they go to their engineering bullet points, and start piling on the features, and then leave it to the UI people to clean up their mess.
I don't believe Nokia has the discipline to say no to their engineers, which is what iPhone-style integration requires. We can argue about cameras and MMS and cut and paste till the cows come home, but the sales numbers don't lie. Apple starts with what they think their customers want to do, and work backwards from there.
Everybody else starts with what their engineers can do and what the marketing people want, and figure everyone will be really impressed, even if the magic is almost impossible to unlock.
Apple has many, many years of this kind of user centric UI design under their belts. Nokia has many, many years of shoveling as many features as humanly possible into their phones.
A press release claiming to have changed up the work flow doesn't change this. Being smart and disciplined about features sets and how they interact isn't something a company adopts on a whim. And it only gets worse as handsets get more powerful, because you can keep adding more bells and whistles.
Honestly, I have been and remain amazed that there don't seem to be more consumer electronics companies that get this. The difference seems to be whether or not you have a Steve Jobs that the engineering and marketing people answer to.
But he made a phone that everyone all over the world wants? What are you on about?
I was a bit unclear. I was trying to balance the discussion a bit. Not very successfully. at that What I was trying to say, that if the current big players have been napping for years with their UIs, features etc. and have now waken up (big IF), then Apple MAY be at a hindrance in the longer run with they history of disproportionate focus on the US and lack of investment in the global market. It has changed yes, but has it changed enough?
I'm saying that the iPhone is a US success and with the fresh approach has gotten a good chunk of the global smartphone market share (but not overall phone market share). Will that work GLOBALLY in the PHONE (not just smartphone) market for YEARS? I surely don't have the answer to that one and that's the thing that's puzzling me at the moment (as well as with Nokia and HTC and RIM).
Regs, Jarkko
I was a bit unclear. I was trying to balance the discussion a bit. Not very successfully. at that What I was trying to say, that if the current big players have been napping for years with their UIs, features etc. and have now waken up (big IF), then Apple MAY be at a hindrance in the longer run with they history of disproportionate focus on the US and lack of investment in the global market. It has changed yes, but has it changed enough?
I'm saying that the iPhone is a US success and with the fresh approach has gotten a good chunk of the global smartphone market share (but not overall phone market share). Will that work GLOBALLY in the PHONE (not just smartphone) market for YEARS? I surely don't have the answer to that one and that's the thing that's puzzling me at the moment (as well as with Nokia and HTC and RIM).
Regs, Jarkko
I don't get the impression Apple has any interest in making a big dent in the just-a-phone market.
The iPhone, despite its name, is only tangentially a phone. It's the first iteration of a mobile computing platform that includes a phone app and uses the cellular network for ubiquitous connectivity.
So, while there may be nuances to the international phone market that Apple still has things to learn about, they're only in the international phone market as a byproduct of needing access to the wireless networks-- not because they plan on making a whole bunch of low cost handsets to compete with the low end free-with-contract phones of the world.
In other words, I think the international market for the iPhone, from Apple's perspective, looks like the international market for the Mac, except without the Windows penetration acting as a barrier to adoption.
Whatever hindrance Jobs is to a global perspective (and I'm not sure that's even true), it's more than offset by what Jobs brings to the iPhone: less is often more.
....
We can argue about cameras and MMS and cut and paste till the cows come home, but the sales numbers don't lie. Apple starts with what they think their customers want to do, and work backwards from there.
I agree with your point, that user centric design is where the success comes from and where other have a lot of catching up to do, but the MMS, Picture quality and cut&paste stuff (amongst others) is actual proof of my other point. Apple is US centric. SMS & MMS is _HUGE_ globally, even more in Asia than in Europe, where kids SMS each other while sitting next to each other in the same car!
If Apple had a global view, they would have made the features that the users now use and want (not just the ones that people in the US want) into the iPhone in a very user friendly UI. This MAY be the hindrance for apple if the competition catches up on the UI side. Also take into account the brand recognition amongst the consumers globally. Apple has much less (yet) compared to the likes of Samsung, LG, Nokia etc outside the computing community and the US and if the big players look the same (full touch phone), but have a more recognizable brand, how will Apple differentiate itself?
Sure it's more a computer + iPod with some phone-stuff to it. But my question still stands: Is it automatic, that since Apple has made a good looking usable iPhone, that it will conquer the world. Also that the first responses from the big brands is the only proof that they don't get it and never can? Even when Apple sems to be US centric (2% of global market) and the others seem to be global (maybe lacking US focus)? Is it that simple?
Regs, Jarkko
I agree with your point, that user centric design is where the success comes from and where other have a lot of catching up to do, but the MMS, Picture quality and cut&paste stuff (amongst others) is actual proof of my other point. Apple is US centric. SMS & MMS is _HUGE_ globally, even more in Asia than in Europe, where kids SMS each other while sitting next to each other in the same car!
If Apple had a global view, they would have made the features that the users now use and want (not just the ones that people in the US want) into the iPhone in a very user friendly UI. This MAY be the hindrance for apple if the competition catches up on the UI side. Also take into account the brand recognition amongst the consumers globally. Apple has much less (yet) compared to the likes of Samsung, LG, Nokia etc outside the computing community and the US and if the big players look the same (full touch phone), but have a more recognizable brand, how will Apple differentiate itself?
Sure it's more a computer + iPod with some phone-stuff to it. But my question still stands: Is it automatic, that since Apple has made a good looking usable iPhone, that it will conquer the world. Also that the first responses from the big brands is the only proof that they don't get it and never can? Even when Apple sems to be US centric (2% of global market) and the others seem to be global (maybe lacking US focus)? Is it that simple?
Regs, Jarkko
Good points about global tastes in cell features, but I think part of that is that Apple doesn't really see itself as competing in the "cell phone" arena, and that includes not feeling compelled to automatically include features that may be considered normal for cell phones.
So it's not really that they're being US centric, but rather "Apple centric" (which may be a different kind of problem).
For instance, I don't think the iPhone doesn't include MMS because it's less popular in the US market, but because Apple (or in this case, I suspect, Jobs) thinks of it as pointless artifact of a limited cell phone infrastructure, which until recently didn't generally support "real" email. I think that decision would have been made even if US cell phone subscribers were using MMS in numbers equal to their European and Asian counterparts, because Apple wants to push past the "cell phone" market into "pocket computing."
Likewise, leaving out cut and paste isn't a decision that fails to take the measure of global tastes, rather it appears Apple made a conscious decision to rethink why cut and paste is used and build in links across apps to handle most of those cases. So I think it's a basic UI philosophy thing, rather than a case of "American cell phones users rarely use cut and paste so what's the big deal?"
That doesn't mean Apple is always right, about this stuff, or that they won't change their minds at some point, but it really seems like Apple being Apple rather than failure to take international habits seriously. They certainly find lots of ways to ignore the loudly stated preferences of their American customers, after all.
Apple starts with what they think their customers want to do, and work backwards from there.
Everybody else starts with what their engineers can do and what the marketing people want, and figure everyone will be really impressed, even if the magic is almost impossible to unlock.
Brilliant!
I have never seen a better definition of how to create a disruptive product.
Apply it to the Nintendo Wii vs. Sony's engineering led mess.
C.
That doesn't mean Apple is always right, about this stuff, or that they won't change their minds at some point, but it really seems like Apple being Apple rather than failure to take international habits seriously. They certainly find lots of ways to ignore the loudly stated preferences of their American customers, after all.
Good points (the whole response). I really didn't think that deeply about this aspect, but I do suspect you're largely right. It seems that they may have some "we know better than the user" attitude combined with designing stuff from an end user's standpoint (even if that requirement ends up being Steve himself for all we know). But it seems to work for the time being and at least >pple has been a very disruptive one that forces change in established players (Record companies, Microsoft (Vista), Linux (Ubuntu), Nokia, Samsung, RIM).
I applaud the change and driver for it.
BTW. I think your comments on the reasons behind why the iPhone is what it is are probably the best I've seen for a long time including most "professional" writers. Unbiased in either direction and insightful. Refreshing especially on a fan forum. Just the stuff I originally registered on this site for and the reason I occasionally prod with non-conforming thoughts.
Regs, Jarkko
Very Interesting - Looks like Nokia is going to lose another 20% of market share.
i believe in Nokia and its experience in mobile devices. I doubt in Apple's capability to be innovated.. just cause i've seen the products they sell, to be honest, fooling a lot of americans with their products just cause they've never seen better stuff that they have in asia and Europe.
iphone is good for multi touch, but Nokia should win in the long run in the cell phone market. (that is excluding cell phone market in the US)
we all know this is all geopolitical, after all Apple is an american company. Nokia, european. You'll find a contrast in Europe and Asia VS the US cell/pc/mp3 market