Really guys Atom has a very long way to go if it is ever expected to perform as well as ARM on a perfoance per watt basis. In fact I will go so far as to say it won't ever beat ARM. No matter howany process shrinks Intel can manage against the competition the fact remains that ARM processors are extremely small with very low transistor counts.
As to the performance of iPhone I'd have to say that it is pretty damn good for a gen one device. Especially to considering it's size. Could it be better overall, certainly but what exactly is causing the performance issue? As has been pointed out more RAM could do more for iPhone than a taste processor right now. Of course that depends on how and why you measure performance. IPhone simply wasn't designed for CPU intensive work, on the other hand it is more impressive than my old Mac Plus.
While I consider the netbook market to be a bit of a joke I can see Apple coming out with a tablet that amounts to a Touch on steroids. There is no need for an Intel CPU in such a device as it adds no value what so ever. The reality is that such a device is not a laptop nor a desktop replacement. Rather like Touch it is a device in it's own category that being Internet tablet. Since a modern ARM CPU can easily triple the performance of the current iPhone CPU that won't be an issue. What will be is the capability to run all day on battery power. Atom can't do that in a reasonably sized machine so it is dead in the water. Mobile OS would be fine here if properly extended for multi processing or as commonly stated back ground apps. What you don't want on these devices is traditionally designed desktop apps. The problem is and always will be screen size, these handheld tablets are no place for windowed apps in the sense of desktop machines. Apple simply needs to leverage the good parts of Mobile OS and otherwise extend it to be able to offer up a very nice OS for tablets.
When it comes right down to it I just don't see a huge sustainable demand for netbooks. Yes it is trendy to have one today but the question is how long do such device remain in operation and usefully deployed. From what I'm seeing not that long. The problem is that as more and better software becomes available for things like IPhone there is little rational need for a big netbook. I have very little in the way of software installed on my iPhone and it has already become a primary platform for many tasks. E-Mail is one significant example. The reality is that I can get to the net from anywhere with this device, not even a netbook can do that without a cellular modem. In the end netbooks will die because they are the wrong solution set to the problem of mobile computing.
Dave
The iPhone is a second generation device, not a first generation device. Although it may suit the needs of some people, my experience with a 3G iPhone was that it is a poor device, indeed.
As to the ARM vs. Atom discussion, the point is not that the Atom is the be all, end all. (It most certainly will not be.) The point is that something like an Atom, be it an ARM, or something else, which has adequate power with low power consumption and a low price is possible. The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else. Although there probably is room for more than one architecture, at least in the short run, there appears to be a trend toward an increasingly "standard architecture" even if informally.
The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else. .
I'm not sure this is conventional wisdom now. I realize that was the thinking a year ago.
Good mobile apps need to written from scratch to work on a mobile device. Just porting an x86 app to a mobile device with an Atom chip won't work well on a smartphone.
Really guys Atom has a very long way to go if it is ever expected to perform as well as ARM on a perfoance per watt basis. In fact I will go so far as to say it won't ever beat ARM. No matter howany process shrinks Intel can manage against the competition the fact remains that ARM processors are extremely small with very low transistor counts.
As to the performance of iPhone I'd have to say that it is pretty damn good for a gen one device. Especially to considering it's size. Could it be better overall, certainly but what exactly is causing the performance issue? As has been pointed out more RAM could do more for iPhone than a taste processor right now. Of course that depends on how and why you measure performance. IPhone simply wasn't designed for CPU intensive work, on the other hand it is more impressive than my old Mac Plus.
While I consider the netbook market to be a bit of a joke I can see Apple coming out with a tablet that amounts to a Touch on steroids. There is no need for an Intel CPU in such a device as it adds no value what so ever. The reality is that such a device is not a laptop nor a desktop replacement. Rather like Touch it is a device in it's own category that being Internet tablet. Since a modern ARM CPU can easily triple the performance of the current iPhone CPU that won't be an issue. What will be is the capability to run all day on battery power. Atom can't do that in a reasonably sized machine so it is dead in the water. Mobile OS would be fine here if properly extended for multi processing or as commonly stated back ground apps. What you don't want on these devices is traditionally designed desktop apps. The problem is and always will be screen size, these handheld tablets are no place for windowed apps in the sense of desktop machines. Apple simply needs to leverage the good parts of Mobile OS and otherwise extend it to be able to offer up a very nice OS for tablets.
When it comes right down to it I just don't see a huge sustainable demand for netbooks. Yes it is trendy to have one today but the question is how long do such device remain in operation and usefully deployed. From what I'm seeing not that long. The problem is that as more and better software becomes available for things like IPhone there is little rational need for a big netbook. I have very little in the way of software installed on my iPhone and it has already become a primary platform for many tasks. E-Mail is one significant example. The reality is that I can get to the net from anywhere with this device, not even a netbook can do that without a cellular modem. In the end netbooks will die because they are the wrong solution set to the problem of mobile computing.
Dave
I agree with most of your opinions here.
I recently went to a conference for 4 days and took only my iPhone. I left the laptop at home.
The iPhone worked better than I expected. I didn't miss my laptop at all.
If you're traveling and expect to do a lot of typing then the netbook might be better. But for quick email responses the iPhone works well, IMO.
The iPhone is a second generation device, not a first generation device. Although it may suit the needs of some people, my experience with a 3G iPhone was that it is a poor device, indeed.
As to the ARM vs. Atom discussion, the point is not that the Atom is the be all, end all. (It most certainly will not be.) The point is that something like an Atom, be it an ARM, or something else, which has adequate power with low power consumption and a low price is possible. The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else. Although there probably is room for more than one architecture, at least in the short run, there appears to be a trend toward an increasingly "standard architecture" even if informally.
Yeah, the difference between ARM and Atom is not much in terms of cost, power, or performance:watt. Even if the Atom is relatively inefficient, it's still really cheap and doesn't consume as much power as other components anyways.
The bigger issue is what OS platform Apple would use, which would probably have the largest influence on choice of CPU.
I *own* an Apple netbook and it is a great machine.
Ok - so it isn't really an Apple computer. It is a MSI Wind running OS X (Macbook Wind).
It's more faster than the G4 Powerbook it replaced, and it is about as light as a Macbook Air. It was also very very inexpensive. Made by Apple, it would be awesome, and an ideal computer for the Education market.
BUT
Apple would have to be crazy to sell one of these machines. The margins are razor thin.
They'd have to sell 4 or 5 netbooks to match the profit of a single Macbook. - And furthermore, those Netbook sales would cannibalize sales of the higher end laptops. It would be a double loss.
Apple has never competed at the low end because profitability is more important than unit volume.
C.
Okay, I have had the same exact experience as you. I bought a Wind for $350 after rebate, and it runs Leopard much better than I thought it would (and I had already read up on it beforehand so my expectations were not that low, just reasonable.) Keep in mind guys that these $300 netbooks come with Intel integrated 950 graphics which supports Expose and other OS X graphical touches just fine. It may have been a relative dog on a $1099 notebook, but is great on a $349 netbook.
So take that sub-$400 netbook, and increase the screen to 11 or 12 inches, increase the size of the keyboard, and upgrade the case materials somewhat. Now can you sell that machine for $599 and generate some profit margin? If so, that's where Apple should be. Maybe the margin still isn't there, if so then that's too bad.
I love my iPod Touch. But for all the talk about a tablet style iPod Touch/iPhone, the App Store, etc...it's still not a great notebook replacement. Sure it will do in a pinch. But keep in mind that the MSI Wind runs Leopard really, really well- unless you have tried it, I can't stress this enough. Safari is much faster on a MSI Wind than an iPod Touch. You can create and save office documents, COPY AND PASTE, etc. It even has a LED-backlit display for that matter (albeit a smaller one.) The only thing holding it back IMO is the keyboard (which is still touch-typable mind you.)
Apple could very well do a tablet or mini-notebook form factor with the Touch OS, but they would need to beef it up a bit if it's intended to be their take on the netbook category (which is entirely possible.)
Okay, I have had the same exact experience as you. I bought a Wind for $350 after rebate, and it runs Leopard much better than I thought it would (and I had already read up on it beforehand so my expectations were not that low, just reasonable.) Keep in mind guys that these $300 netbooks come with Intel integrated 950 graphics which supports Expose and other OS X graphical touches just fine. It may have been a relative dog on a $1099 notebook, but is great on a $349 netbook.
I love my iPod Touch. But for all the talk about a tablet style iPod Touch/iPhone, the App Store, etc...it's still not a great notebook replacement. Sure it will do in a pinch. But keep in mind that the MSI Wind runs Leopard really, really well- unless you have tried it, I can't stress this enough. Safari is much faster on a MSI Wind than an iPod Touch. You can create and save office documents, COPY AND PASTE, etc. It even has a LED-backlit display for that matter (albeit a smaller one.) The only thing holding it back IMO is the keyboard (which is still touch-typable mind you.)
I agree. I was suprised how well OS X ran on my Dell Mini. It runs Leopard a lot better than my old PowerBook G4 runs Tiger.
You skipped my question - what apps do you specifically need on your Netbook, without which you'd rather buy a full function notebook. :-)
It sounds as though you'd be happy to have a slow/plodding Netbook that did everything than a fast responsive Netbook that did basic word processing plus web/email/im/music/movies - but not every OSX app.
I think you're making this into a false dichotomy, where one machine is responsive and the other is not. And obviously, I wouldn't want to do "everything" on a netbook- but you never know when some esoteric app has to be run.
I'm trying to keep this hypothetical instead of about my needs, but you mention web/email/IM/music/movies - that's all most people ever use full-size laptops for (why give them the whole OS?). Shouldn't the apps, the experience and the knowledge required to use them, be the same wherever you go? Why force people to fit into predefined (by Apple, no less) usage?
People are assuming a 1.6GHz Atom netbook must necessarily be slow and plodding, when it is anything but.
Safari on a said netbook is actually significatly more responsive than Safari on a iPhone or iPod Touch. I'm just picking that as an example since a web browser is one of the most used apps. You shouldn't be running Adobe CS4 or Final Cut on it, but neither can you do that on an iPhone.
I like the concept of a Touch OS-based tablet/netbook, but based on my experience with the MSI Wind I like the idea of an Apple-fied $599 Atom netbook much more. It would also be easier in ways for Apple to quickly develop, as you still don't have some basic general computing features in the Touch OS (copy and paste, file transfer, USB host capability, heck even synchronization of Notes much less editing and syncing Office or Works documents.)
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Originally Posted by FuturePastNow
I think you're making this into a false dichotomy, where one machine is responsive and the other is not. And obviously, I wouldn't want to do "everything" on a netbook- but you never know when some esoteric app has to be run.
I'm trying to keep this hypothetical instead of about my needs, but you mention web/email/IM/music/movies - that's all most people ever use full-size laptops for (why give them the whole OS?). Shouldn't the apps, the experience and the knowledge required to use them, be the same wherever you go? Why force people to fit into predefined (by Apple, no less) usage?
The iPhone is a second generation device, not a first generation device. Although it may suit the needs of some people, my experience with a 3G iPhone was that it is a poor device, indeed.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that iPhone is second generation. Even the three G iPhone would be best be considered first gen. as the only thing that changed was the radio.
I will admit that 3 G iPhone had some issues but that was and is software. Even with all the acknowledged issues though it is a very good and innovative machine. The fact that the software is steadily firming up only moves the platform into a unique category.
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As to the ARM vs. Atom discussion, the point is not that the Atom is the be all, end all. (It most certainly will not be.) The point is that something like an Atom, be it an ARM, or something else, which has adequate power with low power consumption and a low price is possible.
Power consumption is everything in a very portable device. It is why I don't see Apple using it on reasonable sized tablet like devices. Anything like an iPod Touch classed device will be ARM.
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The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else.
Clearly Apple has demonstrated that there are more important features than instruction set in this world. With modern tools it really doesn't matter if the instruction set is Core 2 or Cortex. In the end what counts are good compilers and frameworks at the top and low power hardware at the bottom.
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Although there probably is room for more than one architecture, at least in the short run, there appears to be a trend toward an increasingly "standard architecture" even if informally.
Doesn't that statement above fly in the face of what we are seeing in the market. Everyone talks about Atom in cell phones and tablets yet we have yet to see a solid example that is usable. Even in the ARM world there is a lot of diversity. If anything a move to institute a processor standard in the mobile space is just way to soon. It is time for the evolution of optimal processors for this market not a wholesale move to one platform.
Besides that on the software front Apple has an ace in the hole with iPhone apps. All Apple needs to do is make sure the new hardware runs old iPhone apps reasonably well and the issue of delivering hardware without apps goes away. The way I see it any new hardware, of the portable tablet form, needs software that is iPhone compatible to some extent. At least until it reaches a physical size where regular Mac OS might have a chance in help of working.
Yeah, the difference between ARM and Atom is not much in terms of cost, power, or performance:watt. Even if the Atom is relatively inefficient, it's still really cheap and doesn't consume as much power as other components anyways.
Last I knew Atom was a he'll of a lot more power hungery than ARM. Of course that doesn't mean that ARM is the equal of Atom performance wise when looking at raw numbers. Just that ARM can't be beat on performance per watt.
That doesn't even take into account that ARM systems are often SoC while Atom at a minimal requires two chips to get a system up and running. Actually it is worst than that for Atom because other chips outside of the processor and support chip are required, thus a ARM solution takes up dramatically less space.
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The bigger issue is what OS platform Apple would use, which would probably have the largest influence on choice of CPU.
I don't see the OS as being the big influence here. What might be is that big store house of iPhone apps. I could see Apple taking care to make sure a good portion of those apps work on the new device. That assuming Apple comes out with a tablet like device that is to small to run a full windowing OS.
Apple has said nothing positive about Atom that I can recall. I think when viewed within the context of Apple's recent movement in this space it appears likely that they have no intention on going with Intel for their portable processors.
1. The purchase of P.A. Semi
2. The hiring if Mark Papermaster
I think Apple will be either using a custom design or probably looking at this potent combination.
We're certainly on the precipice of a new class of hardware that really demands larger screens and more application flexibility than the current iPhone's form factor allows. Next year is going to be very exciting in this space..whether you call it a Netbook or not.
Last I knew Atom was a he'll of a lot more power hungery than ARM. Of course that doesn't mean that ARM is the equal of Atom performance wise when looking at raw numbers. Just that ARM can't be beat on performance per watt.
That doesn't even take into account that ARM systems are often SoC while Atom at a minimal requires two chips to get a system up and running. Actually it is worst than that for Atom because other chips outside of the processor and support chip are required, thus a ARM solution takes up dramatically less space.
I will definiately defer to you on that point. I guess what my main thought was that I don't know how much impact the difference between an Atom or roughly equivalent power ARM would have on overall battery life of a Mac netbook-class device (compared to screen, possible HD, etc.)
I do get your point that an ARM system can be SoC. But I wonder what the final effective difference would be for a full OS X system.
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I don't see the OS as being the big influence here. What might be is that big store house of iPhone apps. I could see Apple taking care to make sure a good portion of those apps work on the new device. That assuming Apple comes out with a tablet like device that is to small to run a full windowing OS.
I think I meant the same thing- Apple will first decide which platform is more appropriate (OS + software library). If it is basically iPhone OS then ARM is a no-brainer. If they wanted a full OS X device then I was speculating it might be easier to develop an Intel-based system. Although I guess you are bringing up the possibility of App Store compatibility within something more like full OS X.
ARM may have an advantage in performance:watt and price, but I think the recent crop of netbooks shows that the Atom is a pretty good basis for a low-cost notebook computer.
Another larger strategic factor here would be which platform Apple wants to push more- I can see arguments for either. A $599 Mac netbook could be a great switcher type machine. Or Apple may decide that the Touch/iPhone OS has grown to become just as important to Apple as Mac OS, and push that with a new device. I think either could potentially be great devices and very successful.
Last I knew Atom was a he'll of a lot more power hungery than ARM. Of course that doesn't mean that ARM is the equal of Atom performance wise when looking at raw numbers. Just that ARM can't be beat on performance per watt.
That only matters if you insist on a device the size of an iPhone. A larger netbook will have a larger, higher capacity battery. Especially if Apple chooses prismatic cells rather than the inefficient cylindrical package. Six-cell battery packs can already give the MSI Wind five hours of battery life. Nine-cell batteries give close to eight hours and still keep weight to less than a Macbook Air. Moorestown is also going to be much more power-efficient at idle than Silverthorne. It should be able to get tasks done faster than ARM chips, then idle efficiently.
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That doesn't even take into account that ARM systems are often SoC while Atom at a minimal requires two chips to get a system up and running. Actually it is worst than that for Atom because other chips outside of the processor and support chip are required, thus a ARM solution takes up dramatically less space.
The iPhone 3G teardown shows a sizable number of discrete support chips, including power management, several power amps and USB controller, in addition to the GPS and phone chips. It's hardly the one-chip solution you make it sound like. The iPhone motherboard isn't especially compact. Intel says the Lincroft half of Moorestown is a system on a chip itself and Langwell provides a lot more capability than the ARM chips, including USB and PCIe support. They also predict a Moorestown mobo can be much smaller than a credit card.
I recently went to a conference for 4 days and took only my iPhone. I left the laptop at home.
For the recent holiday I spent some time in Las Vegas, on 5 night but I was surprised just how useful the iPhone can be. This was a 3G unit and I ended up using many features. As highlighted it is the machine I turn to for reading and responding to most E-Mails. But I also used it for GPS, and web access. Web access was great for tickets and such.
The biggest problem I had with it is that there is no good way to store documents locally. I experimented a bit with Evernote but that isn't the best solution either.
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The iPhone worked better than I expected. I didn't miss my laptop at all.
Well I did bring my Laptop along but frankly only used it to down load some huge files on the hotels high speed network. Fedora 10 was out and I was able to avoid the problems with WiFi to download those DVD files.
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If you're traveling and expect to do a lot of typing then the netbook might be better. But for quick email responses the iPhone works well, IMO.
Very well if you ask me, and much better now that the software is starting to firm up. Yeah it can be a pain if you need to compose large response or generate a new E-Mail but it is possible and frankly I don't have a need for long responses.
By the way none of the uses I put the iPhone through would have been enhanced by a netbook. In fact I can reasonably argue that a netbook would have made things more difficult. For example to locate myself on GPS it took like 10 seconds from the time I grabbed the iPhone in my pocket. E-mails where read on the go, at least one time propped up against a pole, something that would be more difficult with a netbook in my estimation. Not to mention where would you carry the thing, iPhone is no problem to carry at all. That is iPhone was literally with me every waking moment, and when not awake was acting as an alarm. I just don't see netbooks with the feature sets that make iPhone so useful on the go.
I'm pretty much convinced that to get me to give up the iPhone I currently have your only recourse would be a slightly larger device. Note much bigger mine you as I still want the device to go easily into a pocket, but a line or two of extra text height and an inch more width would be very nice (think land scape orientation).
I will definiately defer to you on that point. I guess what my main thought was that I don't know how much impact the difference between an Atom or roughly equivalent power ARM would have on overall battery life of a Mac netbook-class device (compared to screen, possible HD, etc.)
Well there is a huge problem in that what and how you measure things have a big impact on how good ARM looks as a low power device. I've seen numbers anywhere from 10 to 20 times more power efficient for a given level of performance.
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I do get your point that an ARM system can be SoC. But I wonder what the final effective difference would be for a full OS X system.
That is a good question and I guess the real answer here is I don't know because there are so many variables. If we take an ARM in throw it into a tablet it might actually perform much better than the Intel part simple because heat won't be an issue. You see what I believe Apple will come out with is a thin tablet device, possibly thinner than the current iPhone. IPhone is like 0.48" thick so if Apple comes in under that there simply won't be room for massive heat sinks. In fact passive cooling would be the likely choice and I would believe to be difficult on Intels chip.
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I think I meant the same thing- Apple will first decide which platform is more appropriate (OS + software library). If it is basically iPhone OS then ARM is a no-brainer. If they wanted a full OS X device then I was speculating it might be easier to develop an Intel-based system. Although I guess you are bringing up the possibility of App Store compatibility within something more like full OS X.
Well if they where to go the full Mac OS route then yeah i86 compatibility would be important. I don't think they will go that route though. The reason being cramped is that Apple has pretty much proven that the desktop metaphor doesn't translate well to small devices.
As to Apps and app store there is a lot of potential in the current iPhone SDK. It is obvious that extensive design went into the SDK to support more devices than just iphone. The interesting question is where is the cut off point where the iPhone user interface becomes more of a liability rather than an asset.
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ARM may have an advantage in performance:watt and price, but I think the recent crop of netbooks shows that the Atom is a pretty good basis for a low-cost notebook computer.
Atom is certainly a good product don't get me wrong here at all. Its power usage is a problem though as is its foot print. But we aren't really talking notebooks here but rather the small netbooks and tablets that would compete with them, supplement them or simply establish new markets.
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Another larger strategic factor here would be which platform Apple wants to push more- I can see arguments for either. A $599 Mac netbook could be a great switcher type machine. Or Apple may decide that the Touch/iPhone OS has grown to become just as important to Apple as Mac OS, and push that with a new device. I think either could potentially be great devices and very successful.
Personally I see the current crop of netbooks as dead ends. What the world really needs is a slightly larger iPhone like device in the mold of a tablet or Newton Two device. The overriding concerns here is a flat or thin device that has a large screen and performance at least twice the current iPhone. Thin is the most important feature here and Apple needs to shoot for less than 3/8".
I going to assume your not just being a troll here (cause you said you weren't), but this stuff above is just 100% BS.
You are faulting the company with the best design chops, the highest build quality and the highest customer satisfaction rate in the entire industry over the last 20 years or so (and they lead the pack by a huge amount in all three) for ...
poor quality products?
Absolute nonsense.
Well having just lost my iMac G5 to a bad driver upgrade and now having to return the alum iMac 24", that replaced it, after 6 months of non stop faults, I'd like to debate that.
The technician who came out to "fix" my iMac knew exactly what the problem was almost as soon as I told him the symptoms. He is doing 2-3 a week and we are not a large town.
That only matters if you insist on a device the size of an iPhone. A larger netbook will have a larger, higher capacity battery.
Well in general yes larger devices have larger batteries. But this is engineering and there are trade offs. If Apple does battle with the netbooks with a tablet and a design goal on that tablet is thin, then you might not have the battery space you might think you have.
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Especially if Apple chooses prismatic cells rather than the inefficient cylindrical package. Six-cell battery packs can already give the MSI Wind five hours of battery life. Nine-cell batteries give close to eight hours and still keep weight to less than a Macbook Air.
Why would Apple take a step backwards with battery technology. All their recent hardware has moved away form cells. On top of that since when is five hours of battery time respectable for a portable device. Some of Apples iPods are pushing 24 hours of use. Apple is generous with an advertised 36 hours on the newest Touch but I don't have personal experience here.
The point is the optimal use of low power technology should produce an all day sucker. That is a modern tablet like device should be able to service the users needs for the entire day he is awake.
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Moorestown is also going to be much more power-efficient at idle than Silverthorne. It should be able to get tasks done faster than ARM chips, then idle efficiently.
Things will get very interesting here as strange as it might sound the newest cores from ARM are actually out of order machines as opposed to intels in order Silverthorne. Until somebody gets real products on the market we won't know which is better in raw performance. However as you point to what s getting better in the new Intel hardware is idle performance which frankly is just about useless for devices that actually get used a lot.
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The iPhone 3G teardown shows a sizable number of discrete support chips, including power management, several power amps and USB controller, in addition to the GPS and phone chips. It's hardly the one-chip solution you make it sound like.
Well it is not likely the power amps will ever go on chip, same for power management. However you do have a rather complete system on that chip outside of the flash storage. In any event this thread is in reference to future devices and the possibility of Apple competing against the netbooks. In that sense we are likely talking about a brand new SoC. PA Semi is fully capable of integrating all the core logic onto one ship and doing so at low power.
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The iPhone motherboard isn't especially compact. Intel says the Lincroft half of Moorestown is a system on a chip itself and Langwell provides a lot more capability than the ARM chips, including USB and PCIe support. They also predict a Moorestown mobo can be much smaller than a credit card.
I'm not sure where you are getting your info but if you want built in USB of PCI express you can have it in an ARM SoC if you want it. One problem people have with ARM is that it is marketed differently than intel hardware. part of that difference is the fact that there are ARM cores and on chip I/O busses that can connect to the hardware of the customers choice. That is why there is a huge number of ARM variants out there. Even their simpler Cortex cores have provision for customization.
As to credit card size systems the whole point here is that ARM is already well under that size.
Well after 6 pages, my response is that if Apple can't make a nice 30% margin, it aint playing in the netbook market. They happily don't produce a $700 laptop, a gigantic volume seller, and I'm sure they won't have any problems not participating in the netbook market either. The cheap desktop, the Mac mini, is barely an offering. They only participate if they can make a lot of money, and it hasn't been demonstrated to me that netbooks make a lot of money. It could be just like that $300 desktop margin, a near zero margins game, and as said before, Apple don't play that.
I really don't see how these analysts think that the economy give Apple an opportunity to produce a $599 netbook. If they do something, it'd be something like a $1099 12" MacBook. 1" thin, normal sized Apple laptop keyboard, 1.86 GHz Core 2 Duo, 1.8" HDD or SSD, Nvidia core logic with 9400M IGP, etc, to satisfy the need for the "small form factor" laptop market. Thinness counts a whole lot.
There's probably something Apple can do in the $499 to $699 space, and I think I agree with everyone who's saying iPhone "max" or "pro" and an iPod touch max/pro with a 4.5" screen or so. This means a PA Semi integrated ARM + 3D graphics, 256/512 MB memory, and probably 64 GB Flash storage. For the OS, they would have to turn on access to the filesystem, turn on clip-board and cut/copy-n-paste, turn on the virtual memory system, etc. I don't view something like this as a tablet, it's a handheld or a PDA.
Tablets (6 to 9 inch screens) fall into a rather frustrating in between consumer space where it's too big to be pocketable and too limited to be as useful as a small laptop. I don't think there is a consumer market for it.
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Really guys Atom has a very long way to go if it is ever expected to perform as well as ARM on a perfoance per watt basis. In fact I will go so far as to say it won't ever beat ARM. No matter howany process shrinks Intel can manage against the competition the fact remains that ARM processors are extremely small with very low transistor counts.
As to the performance of iPhone I'd have to say that it is pretty damn good for a gen one device. Especially to considering it's size. Could it be better overall, certainly but what exactly is causing the performance issue? As has been pointed out more RAM could do more for iPhone than a taste processor right now. Of course that depends on how and why you measure performance. IPhone simply wasn't designed for CPU intensive work, on the other hand it is more impressive than my old Mac Plus.
While I consider the netbook market to be a bit of a joke I can see Apple coming out with a tablet that amounts to a Touch on steroids. There is no need for an Intel CPU in such a device as it adds no value what so ever. The reality is that such a device is not a laptop nor a desktop replacement. Rather like Touch it is a device in it's own category that being Internet tablet. Since a modern ARM CPU can easily triple the performance of the current iPhone CPU that won't be an issue. What will be is the capability to run all day on battery power. Atom can't do that in a reasonably sized machine so it is dead in the water. Mobile OS would be fine here if properly extended for multi processing or as commonly stated back ground apps. What you don't want on these devices is traditionally designed desktop apps. The problem is and always will be screen size, these handheld tablets are no place for windowed apps in the sense of desktop machines. Apple simply needs to leverage the good parts of Mobile OS and otherwise extend it to be able to offer up a very nice OS for tablets.
When it comes right down to it I just don't see a huge sustainable demand for netbooks. Yes it is trendy to have one today but the question is how long do such device remain in operation and usefully deployed. From what I'm seeing not that long. The problem is that as more and better software becomes available for things like IPhone there is little rational need for a big netbook. I have very little in the way of software installed on my iPhone and it has already become a primary platform for many tasks. E-Mail is one significant example. The reality is that I can get to the net from anywhere with this device, not even a netbook can do that without a cellular modem. In the end netbooks will die because they are the wrong solution set to the problem of mobile computing.
Dave
The iPhone is a second generation device, not a first generation device. Although it may suit the needs of some people, my experience with a 3G iPhone was that it is a poor device, indeed.
As to the ARM vs. Atom discussion, the point is not that the Atom is the be all, end all. (It most certainly will not be.) The point is that something like an Atom, be it an ARM, or something else, which has adequate power with low power consumption and a low price is possible. The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else. Although there probably is room for more than one architecture, at least in the short run, there appears to be a trend toward an increasingly "standard architecture" even if informally.
http://store.apple.com/us/browse/hom...ni?mco=MTE3MTA
You're many years too late. Apple released its first $799 Mac in 2001.
So what does your link to the Mac mini have to do with your post?
The Mac mini was released in January 2005 at $499. And the link you posted has one at $599 and one at $799.
In 2001, the iMac G3/500 was $799, the iBook was $1299 was and the PowerMac was $1699.
The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else. .
I'm not sure this is conventional wisdom now. I realize that was the thinking a year ago.
Good mobile apps need to written from scratch to work on a mobile device. Just porting an x86 app to a mobile device with an Atom chip won't work well on a smartphone.
Really guys Atom has a very long way to go if it is ever expected to perform as well as ARM on a perfoance per watt basis. In fact I will go so far as to say it won't ever beat ARM. No matter howany process shrinks Intel can manage against the competition the fact remains that ARM processors are extremely small with very low transistor counts.
As to the performance of iPhone I'd have to say that it is pretty damn good for a gen one device. Especially to considering it's size. Could it be better overall, certainly but what exactly is causing the performance issue? As has been pointed out more RAM could do more for iPhone than a taste processor right now. Of course that depends on how and why you measure performance. IPhone simply wasn't designed for CPU intensive work, on the other hand it is more impressive than my old Mac Plus.
While I consider the netbook market to be a bit of a joke I can see Apple coming out with a tablet that amounts to a Touch on steroids. There is no need for an Intel CPU in such a device as it adds no value what so ever. The reality is that such a device is not a laptop nor a desktop replacement. Rather like Touch it is a device in it's own category that being Internet tablet. Since a modern ARM CPU can easily triple the performance of the current iPhone CPU that won't be an issue. What will be is the capability to run all day on battery power. Atom can't do that in a reasonably sized machine so it is dead in the water. Mobile OS would be fine here if properly extended for multi processing or as commonly stated back ground apps. What you don't want on these devices is traditionally designed desktop apps. The problem is and always will be screen size, these handheld tablets are no place for windowed apps in the sense of desktop machines. Apple simply needs to leverage the good parts of Mobile OS and otherwise extend it to be able to offer up a very nice OS for tablets.
When it comes right down to it I just don't see a huge sustainable demand for netbooks. Yes it is trendy to have one today but the question is how long do such device remain in operation and usefully deployed. From what I'm seeing not that long. The problem is that as more and better software becomes available for things like IPhone there is little rational need for a big netbook. I have very little in the way of software installed on my iPhone and it has already become a primary platform for many tasks. E-Mail is one significant example. The reality is that I can get to the net from anywhere with this device, not even a netbook can do that without a cellular modem. In the end netbooks will die because they are the wrong solution set to the problem of mobile computing.
Dave
I agree with most of your opinions here.
I recently went to a conference for 4 days and took only my iPhone. I left the laptop at home.
The iPhone worked better than I expected. I didn't miss my laptop at all.
If you're traveling and expect to do a lot of typing then the netbook might be better. But for quick email responses the iPhone works well, IMO.
The iPhone is a second generation device, not a first generation device. Although it may suit the needs of some people, my experience with a 3G iPhone was that it is a poor device, indeed.
As to the ARM vs. Atom discussion, the point is not that the Atom is the be all, end all. (It most certainly will not be.) The point is that something like an Atom, be it an ARM, or something else, which has adequate power with low power consumption and a low price is possible. The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else. Although there probably is room for more than one architecture, at least in the short run, there appears to be a trend toward an increasingly "standard architecture" even if informally.
Yeah, the difference between ARM and Atom is not much in terms of cost, power, or performance:watt. Even if the Atom is relatively inefficient, it's still really cheap and doesn't consume as much power as other components anyways.
The bigger issue is what OS platform Apple would use, which would probably have the largest influence on choice of CPU.
I *own* an Apple netbook and it is a great machine.
Ok - so it isn't really an Apple computer. It is a MSI Wind running OS X (Macbook Wind).
It's more faster than the G4 Powerbook it replaced, and it is about as light as a Macbook Air. It was also very very inexpensive. Made by Apple, it would be awesome, and an ideal computer for the Education market.
BUT
Apple would have to be crazy to sell one of these machines. The margins are razor thin.
They'd have to sell 4 or 5 netbooks to match the profit of a single Macbook. - And furthermore, those Netbook sales would cannibalize sales of the higher end laptops. It would be a double loss.
Apple has never competed at the low end because profitability is more important than unit volume.
C.
Okay, I have had the same exact experience as you. I bought a Wind for $350 after rebate, and it runs Leopard much better than I thought it would (and I had already read up on it beforehand so my expectations were not that low, just reasonable.) Keep in mind guys that these $300 netbooks come with Intel integrated 950 graphics which supports Expose and other OS X graphical touches just fine. It may have been a relative dog on a $1099 notebook, but is great on a $349 netbook.
So take that sub-$400 netbook, and increase the screen to 11 or 12 inches, increase the size of the keyboard, and upgrade the case materials somewhat. Now can you sell that machine for $599 and generate some profit margin? If so, that's where Apple should be. Maybe the margin still isn't there, if so then that's too bad.
I love my iPod Touch. But for all the talk about a tablet style iPod Touch/iPhone, the App Store, etc...it's still not a great notebook replacement. Sure it will do in a pinch. But keep in mind that the MSI Wind runs Leopard really, really well- unless you have tried it, I can't stress this enough. Safari is much faster on a MSI Wind than an iPod Touch. You can create and save office documents, COPY AND PASTE, etc. It even has a LED-backlit display for that matter (albeit a smaller one.) The only thing holding it back IMO is the keyboard (which is still touch-typable mind you.)
Apple could very well do a tablet or mini-notebook form factor with the Touch OS, but they would need to beef it up a bit if it's intended to be their take on the netbook category (which is entirely possible.)
Okay, I have had the same exact experience as you. I bought a Wind for $350 after rebate, and it runs Leopard much better than I thought it would (and I had already read up on it beforehand so my expectations were not that low, just reasonable.) Keep in mind guys that these $300 netbooks come with Intel integrated 950 graphics which supports Expose and other OS X graphical touches just fine. It may have been a relative dog on a $1099 notebook, but is great on a $349 netbook.
I love my iPod Touch. But for all the talk about a tablet style iPod Touch/iPhone, the App Store, etc...it's still not a great notebook replacement. Sure it will do in a pinch. But keep in mind that the MSI Wind runs Leopard really, really well- unless you have tried it, I can't stress this enough. Safari is much faster on a MSI Wind than an iPod Touch. You can create and save office documents, COPY AND PASTE, etc. It even has a LED-backlit display for that matter (albeit a smaller one.) The only thing holding it back IMO is the keyboard (which is still touch-typable mind you.)
I agree. I was suprised how well OS X ran on my Dell Mini. It runs Leopard a lot better than my old PowerBook G4 runs Tiger.
You skipped my question - what apps do you specifically need on your Netbook, without which you'd rather buy a full function notebook. :-)
It sounds as though you'd be happy to have a slow/plodding Netbook that did everything than a fast responsive Netbook that did basic word processing plus web/email/im/music/movies - but not every OSX app.
I think you're making this into a false dichotomy, where one machine is responsive and the other is not. And obviously, I wouldn't want to do "everything" on a netbook- but you never know when some esoteric app has to be run.
I'm trying to keep this hypothetical instead of about my needs, but you mention web/email/IM/music/movies - that's all most people ever use full-size laptops for (why give them the whole OS?). Shouldn't the apps, the experience and the knowledge required to use them, be the same wherever you go? Why force people to fit into predefined (by Apple, no less) usage?
Safari on a said netbook is actually significatly more responsive than Safari on a iPhone or iPod Touch. I'm just picking that as an example since a web browser is one of the most used apps. You shouldn't be running Adobe CS4 or Final Cut on it, but neither can you do that on an iPhone.
I like the concept of a Touch OS-based tablet/netbook, but based on my experience with the MSI Wind I like the idea of an Apple-fied $599 Atom netbook much more. It would also be easier in ways for Apple to quickly develop, as you still don't have some basic general computing features in the Touch OS (copy and paste, file transfer, USB host capability, heck even synchronization of Notes much less editing and syncing Office or Works documents.)
I think you're making this into a false dichotomy, where one machine is responsive and the other is not. And obviously, I wouldn't want to do "everything" on a netbook- but you never know when some esoteric app has to be run.
I'm trying to keep this hypothetical instead of about my needs, but you mention web/email/IM/music/movies - that's all most people ever use full-size laptops for (why give them the whole OS?). Shouldn't the apps, the experience and the knowledge required to use them, be the same wherever you go? Why force people to fit into predefined (by Apple, no less) usage?
The iPhone is a second generation device, not a first generation device. Although it may suit the needs of some people, my experience with a 3G iPhone was that it is a poor device, indeed.
I'm not sure where you get the idea that iPhone is second generation. Even the three G iPhone would be best be considered first gen. as the only thing that changed was the radio.
I will admit that 3 G iPhone had some issues but that was and is software. Even with all the acknowledged issues though it is a very good and innovative machine. The fact that the software is steadily firming up only moves the platform into a unique category.
As to the ARM vs. Atom discussion, the point is not that the Atom is the be all, end all. (It most certainly will not be.) The point is that something like an Atom, be it an ARM, or something else, which has adequate power with low power consumption and a low price is possible.
Power consumption is everything in a very portable device. It is why I don't see Apple using it on reasonable sized tablet like devices. Anything like an iPod Touch classed device will be ARM.
The Atom vs ARM vs ??? bit probably has as much to do with what software is supported natively, in other words the software vendors do not have to rewrite everything from scratch, than anything else.
Clearly Apple has demonstrated that there are more important features than instruction set in this world. With modern tools it really doesn't matter if the instruction set is Core 2 or Cortex. In the end what counts are good compilers and frameworks at the top and low power hardware at the bottom.
Although there probably is room for more than one architecture, at least in the short run, there appears to be a trend toward an increasingly "standard architecture" even if informally.
Doesn't that statement above fly in the face of what we are seeing in the market. Everyone talks about Atom in cell phones and tablets yet we have yet to see a solid example that is usable. Even in the ARM world there is a lot of diversity. If anything a move to institute a processor standard in the mobile space is just way to soon. It is time for the evolution of optimal processors for this market not a wholesale move to one platform.
Besides that on the software front Apple has an ace in the hole with iPhone apps. All Apple needs to do is make sure the new hardware runs old iPhone apps reasonably well and the issue of delivering hardware without apps goes away. The way I see it any new hardware, of the portable tablet form, needs software that is iPhone compatible to some extent. At least until it reaches a physical size where regular Mac OS might have a chance in help of working.
Dave
Yeah, the difference between ARM and Atom is not much in terms of cost, power, or performance:watt. Even if the Atom is relatively inefficient, it's still really cheap and doesn't consume as much power as other components anyways.
Last I knew Atom was a he'll of a lot more power hungery than ARM. Of course that doesn't mean that ARM is the equal of Atom performance wise when looking at raw numbers. Just that ARM can't be beat on performance per watt.
That doesn't even take into account that ARM systems are often SoC while Atom at a minimal requires two chips to get a system up and running. Actually it is worst than that for Atom because other chips outside of the processor and support chip are required, thus a ARM solution takes up dramatically less space.
The bigger issue is what OS platform Apple would use, which would probably have the largest influence on choice of CPU.
I don't see the OS as being the big influence here. What might be is that big store house of iPhone apps. I could see Apple taking care to make sure a good portion of those apps work on the new device. That assuming Apple comes out with a tablet like device that is to small to run a full windowing OS.
Dave
1. The purchase of P.A. Semi
2. The hiring if Mark Papermaster
I think Apple will be either using a custom design or probably looking at this potent combination.
ARM Cortex-A8 for processing
Imagination PowerVR for graphics
OpenVG support to go alongside OpenGL ES 2.0
Here's a chintzy version
www.openpandora.org
We're certainly on the precipice of a new class of hardware that really demands larger screens and more application flexibility than the current iPhone's form factor allows. Next year is going to be very exciting in this space..whether you call it a Netbook or not.
HM
Last I knew Atom was a he'll of a lot more power hungery than ARM. Of course that doesn't mean that ARM is the equal of Atom performance wise when looking at raw numbers. Just that ARM can't be beat on performance per watt.
That doesn't even take into account that ARM systems are often SoC while Atom at a minimal requires two chips to get a system up and running. Actually it is worst than that for Atom because other chips outside of the processor and support chip are required, thus a ARM solution takes up dramatically less space.
I will definiately defer to you on that point. I guess what my main thought was that I don't know how much impact the difference between an Atom or roughly equivalent power ARM would have on overall battery life of a Mac netbook-class device (compared to screen, possible HD, etc.)
I do get your point that an ARM system can be SoC. But I wonder what the final effective difference would be for a full OS X system.
I don't see the OS as being the big influence here. What might be is that big store house of iPhone apps. I could see Apple taking care to make sure a good portion of those apps work on the new device. That assuming Apple comes out with a tablet like device that is to small to run a full windowing OS.
I think I meant the same thing- Apple will first decide which platform is more appropriate (OS + software library). If it is basically iPhone OS then ARM is a no-brainer. If they wanted a full OS X device then I was speculating it might be easier to develop an Intel-based system. Although I guess you are bringing up the possibility of App Store compatibility within something more like full OS X.
ARM may have an advantage in performance:watt and price, but I think the recent crop of netbooks shows that the Atom is a pretty good basis for a low-cost notebook computer.
Another larger strategic factor here would be which platform Apple wants to push more- I can see arguments for either. A $599 Mac netbook could be a great switcher type machine. Or Apple may decide that the Touch/iPhone OS has grown to become just as important to Apple as Mac OS, and push that with a new device. I think either could potentially be great devices and very successful.
Last I knew Atom was a he'll of a lot more power hungery than ARM. Of course that doesn't mean that ARM is the equal of Atom performance wise when looking at raw numbers. Just that ARM can't be beat on performance per watt.
That only matters if you insist on a device the size of an iPhone. A larger netbook will have a larger, higher capacity battery. Especially if Apple chooses prismatic cells rather than the inefficient cylindrical package. Six-cell battery packs can already give the MSI Wind five hours of battery life. Nine-cell batteries give close to eight hours and still keep weight to less than a Macbook Air. Moorestown is also going to be much more power-efficient at idle than Silverthorne. It should be able to get tasks done faster than ARM chips, then idle efficiently.
That doesn't even take into account that ARM systems are often SoC while Atom at a minimal requires two chips to get a system up and running. Actually it is worst than that for Atom because other chips outside of the processor and support chip are required, thus a ARM solution takes up dramatically less space.
The iPhone 3G teardown shows a sizable number of discrete support chips, including power management, several power amps and USB controller, in addition to the GPS and phone chips. It's hardly the one-chip solution you make it sound like. The iPhone motherboard isn't especially compact. Intel says the Lincroft half of Moorestown is a system on a chip itself and Langwell provides a lot more capability than the ARM chips, including USB and PCIe support. They also predict a Moorestown mobo can be much smaller than a credit card.
I agree with most of your opinions here.
Good to hear.
I recently went to a conference for 4 days and took only my iPhone. I left the laptop at home.
For the recent holiday I spent some time in Las Vegas, on 5 night but I was surprised just how useful the iPhone can be. This was a 3G unit and I ended up using many features. As highlighted it is the machine I turn to for reading and responding to most E-Mails. But I also used it for GPS, and web access. Web access was great for tickets and such.
The biggest problem I had with it is that there is no good way to store documents locally. I experimented a bit with Evernote but that isn't the best solution either.
The iPhone worked better than I expected. I didn't miss my laptop at all.
Well I did bring my Laptop along but frankly only used it to down load some huge files on the hotels high speed network. Fedora 10 was out and I was able to avoid the problems with WiFi to download those DVD files.
If you're traveling and expect to do a lot of typing then the netbook might be better. But for quick email responses the iPhone works well, IMO.
Very well if you ask me, and much better now that the software is starting to firm up. Yeah it can be a pain if you need to compose large response or generate a new E-Mail but it is possible and frankly I don't have a need for long responses.
By the way none of the uses I put the iPhone through would have been enhanced by a netbook. In fact I can reasonably argue that a netbook would have made things more difficult. For example to locate myself on GPS it took like 10 seconds from the time I grabbed the iPhone in my pocket. E-mails where read on the go, at least one time propped up against a pole, something that would be more difficult with a netbook in my estimation. Not to mention where would you carry the thing, iPhone is no problem to carry at all. That is iPhone was literally with me every waking moment, and when not awake was acting as an alarm. I just don't see netbooks with the feature sets that make iPhone so useful on the go.
I'm pretty much convinced that to get me to give up the iPhone I currently have your only recourse would be a slightly larger device. Note much bigger mine you as I still want the device to go easily into a pocket, but a line or two of extra text height and an inch more width would be very nice (think land scape orientation).
Dave
I will definiately defer to you on that point. I guess what my main thought was that I don't know how much impact the difference between an Atom or roughly equivalent power ARM would have on overall battery life of a Mac netbook-class device (compared to screen, possible HD, etc.)
Well there is a huge problem in that what and how you measure things have a big impact on how good ARM looks as a low power device. I've seen numbers anywhere from 10 to 20 times more power efficient for a given level of performance.
I do get your point that an ARM system can be SoC. But I wonder what the final effective difference would be for a full OS X system.
That is a good question and I guess the real answer here is I don't know because there are so many variables. If we take an ARM in throw it into a tablet it might actually perform much better than the Intel part simple because heat won't be an issue. You see what I believe Apple will come out with is a thin tablet device, possibly thinner than the current iPhone. IPhone is like 0.48" thick so if Apple comes in under that there simply won't be room for massive heat sinks. In fact passive cooling would be the likely choice and I would believe to be difficult on Intels chip.
I think I meant the same thing- Apple will first decide which platform is more appropriate (OS + software library). If it is basically iPhone OS then ARM is a no-brainer. If they wanted a full OS X device then I was speculating it might be easier to develop an Intel-based system. Although I guess you are bringing up the possibility of App Store compatibility within something more like full OS X.
Well if they where to go the full Mac OS route then yeah i86 compatibility would be important. I don't think they will go that route though. The reason being cramped is that Apple has pretty much proven that the desktop metaphor doesn't translate well to small devices.
As to Apps and app store there is a lot of potential in the current iPhone SDK. It is obvious that extensive design went into the SDK to support more devices than just iphone. The interesting question is where is the cut off point where the iPhone user interface becomes more of a liability rather than an asset.
ARM may have an advantage in performance:watt and price, but I think the recent crop of netbooks shows that the Atom is a pretty good basis for a low-cost notebook computer.
Atom is certainly a good product don't get me wrong here at all. Its power usage is a problem though as is its foot print. But we aren't really talking notebooks here but rather the small netbooks and tablets that would compete with them, supplement them or simply establish new markets.
Another larger strategic factor here would be which platform Apple wants to push more- I can see arguments for either. A $599 Mac netbook could be a great switcher type machine. Or Apple may decide that the Touch/iPhone OS has grown to become just as important to Apple as Mac OS, and push that with a new device. I think either could potentially be great devices and very successful.
Personally I see the current crop of netbooks as dead ends. What the world really needs is a slightly larger iPhone like device in the mold of a tablet or Newton Two device. The overriding concerns here is a flat or thin device that has a large screen and performance at least twice the current iPhone. Thin is the most important feature here and Apple needs to shoot for less than 3/8".
I going to assume your not just being a troll here (cause you said you weren't), but this stuff above is just 100% BS.
You are faulting the company with the best design chops, the highest build quality and the highest customer satisfaction rate in the entire industry over the last 20 years or so (and they lead the pack by a huge amount in all three) for ...
poor quality products?
Absolute nonsense.
Well having just lost my iMac G5 to a bad driver upgrade and now having to return the alum iMac 24", that replaced it, after 6 months of non stop faults, I'd like to debate that.
The technician who came out to "fix" my iMac knew exactly what the problem was almost as soon as I told him the symptoms. He is doing 2-3 a week and we are not a large town.
That only matters if you insist on a device the size of an iPhone. A larger netbook will have a larger, higher capacity battery.
Well in general yes larger devices have larger batteries. But this is engineering and there are trade offs. If Apple does battle with the netbooks with a tablet and a design goal on that tablet is thin, then you might not have the battery space you might think you have.
Especially if Apple chooses prismatic cells rather than the inefficient cylindrical package. Six-cell battery packs can already give the MSI Wind five hours of battery life. Nine-cell batteries give close to eight hours and still keep weight to less than a Macbook Air.
Why would Apple take a step backwards with battery technology. All their recent hardware has moved away form cells. On top of that since when is five hours of battery time respectable for a portable device. Some of Apples iPods are pushing 24 hours of use. Apple is generous with an advertised 36 hours on the newest Touch but I don't have personal experience here.
The point is the optimal use of low power technology should produce an all day sucker. That is a modern tablet like device should be able to service the users needs for the entire day he is awake.
Moorestown is also going to be much more power-efficient at idle than Silverthorne. It should be able to get tasks done faster than ARM chips, then idle efficiently.
Things will get very interesting here as strange as it might sound the newest cores from ARM are actually out of order machines as opposed to intels in order Silverthorne. Until somebody gets real products on the market we won't know which is better in raw performance. However as you point to what s getting better in the new Intel hardware is idle performance which frankly is just about useless for devices that actually get used a lot.
The iPhone 3G teardown shows a sizable number of discrete support chips, including power management, several power amps and USB controller, in addition to the GPS and phone chips. It's hardly the one-chip solution you make it sound like.
Well it is not likely the power amps will ever go on chip, same for power management. However you do have a rather complete system on that chip outside of the flash storage. In any event this thread is in reference to future devices and the possibility of Apple competing against the netbooks. In that sense we are likely talking about a brand new SoC. PA Semi is fully capable of integrating all the core logic onto one ship and doing so at low power.
The iPhone motherboard isn't especially compact. Intel says the Lincroft half of Moorestown is a system on a chip itself and Langwell provides a lot more capability than the ARM chips, including USB and PCIe support. They also predict a Moorestown mobo can be much smaller than a credit card.
I'm not sure where you are getting your info but if you want built in USB of PCI express you can have it in an ARM SoC if you want it. One problem people have with ARM is that it is marketed differently than intel hardware. part of that difference is the fact that there are ARM cores and on chip I/O busses that can connect to the hardware of the customers choice. That is why there is a huge number of ARM variants out there. Even their simpler Cortex cores have provision for customization.
As to credit card size systems the whole point here is that ARM is already well under that size.
Dave
A tablet would be revolutionary new product, like the iPhone, with a premium price (remember the initial iPhone pricing).
The netbook market seems to be all about low prices, probably not a market for Apple.
Best,
Daniel
I really don't see how these analysts think that the economy give Apple an opportunity to produce a $599 netbook. If they do something, it'd be something like a $1099 12" MacBook. 1" thin, normal sized Apple laptop keyboard, 1.86 GHz Core 2 Duo, 1.8" HDD or SSD, Nvidia core logic with 9400M IGP, etc, to satisfy the need for the "small form factor" laptop market. Thinness counts a whole lot.
There's probably something Apple can do in the $499 to $699 space, and I think I agree with everyone who's saying iPhone "max" or "pro" and an iPod touch max/pro with a 4.5" screen or so. This means a PA Semi integrated ARM + 3D graphics, 256/512 MB memory, and probably 64 GB Flash storage. For the OS, they would have to turn on access to the filesystem, turn on clip-board and cut/copy-n-paste, turn on the virtual memory system, etc. I don't view something like this as a tablet, it's a handheld or a PDA.
Tablets (6 to 9 inch screens) fall into a rather frustrating in between consumer space where it's too big to be pocketable and too limited to be as useful as a small laptop. I don't think there is a consumer market for it.