From what I've seen, Blackberrys are a good business phone. Business phones are a very small percentage of the mobile phone market. Most of the market is home users: mums, dads, teenagers and everyone in between. They want a phone which has a decent camera (the iPhone's main weak spot IMO) and makes calls, but increasingly they DO want one with great games, and fun apps.
Most importantly, a lot of users desire something 'easy to use' with 'large writing' and big buttons. I know a few older people who have iPhones purely because of the big dialling buttons.
I want Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and the others to succeed, Apple needs competition, but at the moment they don't have any.
And if you think MMS and forwarding SMS's matter, they've probably been left out on purpose to get users onto email with full inline attachments.
Their are some critical flaws in the evidence provided as I said above.
Some things you've seen as 'flaws' have tended to be flaws based on your own personal opinion, really, or cherry-picked evidence that has ignored the broader whole. You're not impassive, but rather, pretty partisan in clinging to your established viewpoint, come hell or high water.
Not that that's entirely awful, and I actually admire your persistence, but it does make you not too useful to talk to at times. Basically, when I disagree with Apple on something, I also imagine the Apple party line counter to what I'm saying, and sure enough, like clockwork, that's what Teno posts in rebuttal, 99% of the time.
Quote:
I am not saying that Apple does everything right. I'm looking at the fact that the iPhone is one of the best selling smartphones in the world.
Sure... now it is, after they released a 3G model. But yet, in the past, you've consistently downplayed the importance of 3G. So, it seems odd that you'd now trumpet how well the 3G model is doing now.
In any case, that'd be an example of a feature that did make a difference (though I'm sure you'll argue it was entirely a price thing), and something that ppl called on Apple to do ASAP. They finally did, and sales improved a lot as a result, particularly overseas.
Quote:
Early in the firewire debate. I said I wished Apple would hold on to firewire until USB 3 is available, but I can understand why they are letting it go.
Most everyone understands why they're letting it go. But really, they let it go too early. The backlash was justified.
Quote:
I don't think you were around when I criticized Apple for the way it was rejecting apps from the app store and its uneven approval of apps. I felt that Apple was risking a developer backlash.
Well, it's nice to know that once in a blue moon, you can show some independence. I'm just saying that I've never seen it directly.
Quote:
Mel and Solpism disagreed with me. So far their has been no developer backlash and the submission of apps has gone on uninterrupted. I'm sure presenting apps in iPhone commercials go a long way to making developers happy.
Yup. Apple can be wrong about something, but success can cover a multitude of ills. Unless and until things get rough.
Some things you've seen as 'flaws' have tended to be flaws based on your own personal opinion, really, or cherry-picked evidence that has ignored the broader whole. You're not impassive, but rather, pretty partisan in clinging to your established viewpoint, come hell or high water.
Not that that's entirely awful, and I actually admire your persistence, but it does make you not too useful to talk to at times. Basically, when I disagree with Apple on something, I also imagine the Apple party line counter to what I'm saying, and sure enough, like clockwork, that's what Teno posts in rebuttal, 99% of the time.
Its quite simple. If you feel that Apple is damaging iPhone sales without BT profiles, or MMS or copy and paste. Show me a phone that does have these features and are selling just as well better than the iPhone because of them.
If this could be shown as truth and fact. Their is no way I could debate it. No one has shown this proof so far.
Quote:
Sure... now it is, after they released a 3G model. But yet, in the past, you've consistently downplayed the importance of 3G. So, it seems odd that you'd now trumpet how well the 3G model is doing now.
In any case, that'd be an example of a feature that did make a difference (though I'm sure you'll argue it was entirely a price thing), and something that ppl called on Apple to do ASAP. They finally did, and sales improved a lot as a result, particularly overseas.
Well 3G didn't happen alone. Their is 3G, the app store, and the price cut.
Everyone I know who bought the phone enjoyed the price cut, everyone I know who uses the phone uses the app store, most everyone turns off 3G because it drains the battery. I doubt many people spend much time turning 3G on and off constantly. Its likely off most of the time.
Again I ask. Outside of your own opinion, what evidence is their that iPhone sales have increased because of 3G alone?
Quote:
Most everyone understands why they're letting it go. But really, they let it go too early. The backlash was justified.
They can backlash all they want about firewire. But it will make no difference in the long run.
As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here.
Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.
There is also no EDGE available on my network, wireless hotspots are few and far between so I use 3.5G all the time.
Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.
Yup. Americans often make the error of thinking that since they have an 'almost sorta kinda adequate' alternative to 3G (widely-deployed semi-crappy EDGE, instead of uber-crappy GPRS), the rest of the world must too. A classic, and oft-repeated mistake.
But Hill, don't worry about Teno. He's been told all these things many times before, and he still doesn't get it. When it comes to 3G, he's never gotten it, and probably never will.
He's very 'provincial American' in his insistence on not understanding the importance of it.
You know, if you're going to insult another poster, you should at least do it to his face, instead of this little chatting with someone who agrees with you and just throwing in a slur as an aside thing, which is really just kinda nasty. In a tedious, junior high sort of way.
One reason why Apple will do well here, esp now, is because of their very strong financial position.
This Forbes article which arrived in my e-mail tells a compelling story of what we'll be seeing during this recession.
Great point!. We see that even companies like Motorola lives (and possibly die) on the success of one hit model. Namely Razr. Apple can drag iPhone and its variants for years with mediocre volumes and still stay financially sound. The financial dynamics are very very different for other companies.
In a recession, those lesser companies has great pressure to not made a mistake, hence will fall back to safe options. ie not going to see much innovations there. I still don't understand why phone still have a music player where most people already use an iPod or similar MP3 devices that does great music and have very very long battery life. In fact, most music features in handsets are used just to play ringtone and not much more. I am hoping Apple will be aggressive in innovating the phone, MP3 player/nternet tablet and come up with the Mac Tablet or something similar. Apple can afford to make a coupe of screw ups like they did in the Newton days. Their recovery from such mistakes will likely spawn innovations needed to supercharge the market in new directions.
I think they are so good on the OS and software side, there is really no competition. I think they know it. How about leveraging that more so ?
Yup. Americans often make the error of thinking that since they have an 'almost sorta kinda adequate' alternative to 3G (widely-deployed semi-crappy EDGE, instead of uber-crappy GPRS), the rest of the world must too. A classic, and oft-repeated mistake.
But Hill, don't worry about Teno. He's been told all these things many times before, and he still doesn't get it. When it comes to 3G, he's never gotten it, and probably never will.
He's very 'provincial American' in his insistence on not understanding the importance of it.
...
Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).
The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.
Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.
Great point!. We see that even companies like Motorola lives (and possibly die) on the success of one hit model. Namely Razr. Apple can drag iPhone and its variants for years with mediocre volumes and still stay financially sound. The financial dynamics are very very different for other companies.
In a recession, those lesser companies has great pressure to not made a mistake, hence will fall back to safe options. ie not going to see much innovations there. I still don't understand why phone still have a music player where most people already use an iPod or similar MP3 devices that does great music and have very very long battery life. In fact, most music features in handsets are used just to play ringtone and not much more. I am hoping Apple will be aggressive in innovating the phone, MP3 player/nternet tablet and come up with the Mac Tablet or something similar. Apple can afford to make a coupe of screw ups like they did in the Newton days. Their recovery from such mistakes will likely spawn innovations needed to supercharge the market in new directions.
I think they are so good on the OS and software side, there is really no competition. I think they know it. How about leveraging that more so ?
As far as separate music players go, people don't want to carry too many things around. The same thing was said about integrating PDA's with phones in the beginning. Why would people want one device that isn't ideal for either function?
But, as technology moves on, and things get better, it becomes easier to add more functions that work as they're supposed to.
Except for the very cheapest phones and music players, we'll likely see all the rest as a combined device eventually.
Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).
The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.
Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.
This is true. Europeans have often wondered why we get more minutes for the same, or less money. That's the main reason.
As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here. Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.
Australia isn't a good example of this. Its not a valid comparison of jailbroken/unlocked sales to sales through an official carrier.
Quote:
Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.
Unless you can show a study that uses empirical data that proves iPhone sales increased solely because of 3G, its simply your opinion. I believe 3G helps but I don't see it being the sole reason.
When the iPhone was EDGE only, European carriers reported that data use on the iPhone was far above other phones that were 3G. Market studies that measured world web marketshare found the iPhone marketshare far beyond every other mobile platform. As an OS iPhone with EDGE was only short of Linux for use on the web.
Unless you can show a study that uses empirical data that proves iPhone sales increased solely because of 3G, its simply your opinion. I believe 3G helps but I don't see it being the sole reason.
Well maybe Apple should have set up an Ebay store selling unlocked and Jailbroken iPhones to drive expansion then, seeing as how some of the world's largest network providers had no interest in selling an iPhone without 3G.
Well maybe Apple should have set up an Ebay store selling unlocked and Jailbroken iPhones to drive expansion then, seeing as how some of the world's largest network providers had no interest in selling an iPhone without 3G.
Companies like Vodafone had no interest in selling the original iPhone as it didn't suit their needs ie the expansion of their 3G data networks.
Voice and SMS are a fairly saturated market in developed countries and have been for years, there is not much room for growth.
MMS and Video calling offered some hope but were not terribly successful.
The only thing left is data used by Internet enabled devices.
Enter the iPhone 3G.
850Mhz US band used for HSDPA
2100Mhz Band used by most of the rest of the world for HSDPA.
iPhone 3G is one of the few handsets that cover both.
This is also the reason why not all 3G phone's are available to the US market, or are delayed, in the past most non-US manufacturers have had to make two separate models.
A court case in one country, involving one of the multinational telecommunication's Companies I used as an example.
Some more information about Vodafone who sell the iPhone 3G in quite a few other countries and obviously would like to add Germany to that list.
"Vodafone Group Plc is the world's leading mobile telecommunications company, with a significant presence in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia Pacific and the United States through the Company's subsidiary undertakings, joint ventures, associated undertakings and investments.
The Group's mobile subsidiaries operate under the brand name 'Vodafone'. In the United States the Group's associated undertaking operates as Verizon Wireless. During the last two financial years, the Group has also entered into arrangements with network operators in countries where the Group does not hold an equity stake. Under the terms of these Partner Network Agreements, the Group and its partner networks co-operate in the development and marketing of global services under dual brand logos.
At 30 September 2008, based on the registered customers of mobile telecommunications ventures in which it had ownership interests at that date, the Group had 280 million customers, excluding paging customers, calculated on a proportionate basis in accordance with the Company's percentage interest in these ventures."
In that court case Vodafone was suing to block T-Mobile from having exclusive rights to the original iPhone. The point is that Vodafone was interested in the original iPhone before it had 3G.
Quote:
Originally Posted by hill60
A court case in one country, involving one of the multinational telecommunication's Companies I used as an example.
Some more information about Vodafone who sell the iPhone 3G in quite a few other countries and obviously would like to add Germany to that list.
Comments
From what I've seen, Blackberrys are a good business phone. Business phones are a very small percentage of the mobile phone market. Most of the market is home users: mums, dads, teenagers and everyone in between. They want a phone which has a decent camera (the iPhone's main weak spot IMO) and makes calls, but increasingly they DO want one with great games, and fun apps.
Most importantly, a lot of users desire something 'easy to use' with 'large writing' and big buttons. I know a few older people who have iPhones purely because of the big dialling buttons.
I want Nokia, Sony Ericsson, and the others to succeed, Apple needs competition, but at the moment they don't have any.
And if you think MMS and forwarding SMS's matter, they've probably been left out on purpose to get users onto email with full inline attachments.
As you mentioned business:
http://www.appleinsider.com/articles...ket_share.html
Their are some critical flaws in the evidence provided as I said above.
Some things you've seen as 'flaws' have tended to be flaws based on your own personal opinion, really, or cherry-picked evidence that has ignored the broader whole. You're not impassive, but rather, pretty partisan in clinging to your established viewpoint, come hell or high water.
Not that that's entirely awful, and I actually admire your persistence, but it does make you not too useful to talk to at times. Basically, when I disagree with Apple on something, I also imagine the Apple party line counter to what I'm saying, and sure enough, like clockwork, that's what Teno posts in rebuttal, 99% of the time.
I am not saying that Apple does everything right. I'm looking at the fact that the iPhone is one of the best selling smartphones in the world.
Sure... now it is, after they released a 3G model. But yet, in the past, you've consistently downplayed the importance of 3G. So, it seems odd that you'd now trumpet how well the 3G model is doing now.
In any case, that'd be an example of a feature that did make a difference (though I'm sure you'll argue it was entirely a price thing), and something that ppl called on Apple to do ASAP. They finally did, and sales improved a lot as a result, particularly overseas.
Early in the firewire debate. I said I wished Apple would hold on to firewire until USB 3 is available, but I can understand why they are letting it go.
Most everyone understands why they're letting it go. But really, they let it go too early. The backlash was justified.
I don't think you were around when I criticized Apple for the way it was rejecting apps from the app store and its uneven approval of apps. I felt that Apple was risking a developer backlash.
Well, it's nice to know that once in a blue moon, you can show some independence. I'm just saying that I've never seen it directly.
Mel and Solpism disagreed with me. So far their has been no developer backlash and the submission of apps has gone on uninterrupted. I'm sure presenting apps in iPhone commercials go a long way to making developers happy.
Yup. Apple can be wrong about something, but success can cover a multitude of ills. Unless and until things get rough.
...
Yeah, I'm going to let jfanning have the last word on this. I no longer care what he says, as he simply repeats the same thing over and again.
For someone that doesn't care what I say, you seem to be going on about it quite a bit
For someone that doesn't care what I say, you seem to be going on about it quite a bit
As I said sonny, it's over with.
Some things you've seen as 'flaws' have tended to be flaws based on your own personal opinion, really, or cherry-picked evidence that has ignored the broader whole. You're not impassive, but rather, pretty partisan in clinging to your established viewpoint, come hell or high water.
Not that that's entirely awful, and I actually admire your persistence, but it does make you not too useful to talk to at times. Basically, when I disagree with Apple on something, I also imagine the Apple party line counter to what I'm saying, and sure enough, like clockwork, that's what Teno posts in rebuttal, 99% of the time.
Its quite simple. If you feel that Apple is damaging iPhone sales without BT profiles, or MMS or copy and paste. Show me a phone that does have these features and are selling just as well better than the iPhone because of them.
If this could be shown as truth and fact. Their is no way I could debate it. No one has shown this proof so far.
Sure... now it is, after they released a 3G model. But yet, in the past, you've consistently downplayed the importance of 3G. So, it seems odd that you'd now trumpet how well the 3G model is doing now.
In any case, that'd be an example of a feature that did make a difference (though I'm sure you'll argue it was entirely a price thing), and something that ppl called on Apple to do ASAP. They finally did, and sales improved a lot as a result, particularly overseas.
Well 3G didn't happen alone. Their is 3G, the app store, and the price cut.
Everyone I know who bought the phone enjoyed the price cut, everyone I know who uses the phone uses the app store, most everyone turns off 3G because it drains the battery. I doubt many people spend much time turning 3G on and off constantly. Its likely off most of the time.
Again I ask. Outside of your own opinion, what evidence is their that iPhone sales have increased because of 3G alone?
Most everyone understands why they're letting it go. But really, they let it go too early. The backlash was justified.
They can backlash all they want about firewire. But it will make no difference in the long run.
Again I ask. Outside of your own opinion, what evidence is their that iPhone sales have increased because of 3G alone?
As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here.
Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.
There is also no EDGE available on my network, wireless hotspots are few and far between so I use 3.5G all the time.
Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.
As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here.
Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.
There is also no EDGE available on my network, wireless hotspots are few and far between so I use 3.5G all the time.
Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.
Yup. Americans often make the error of thinking that since they have an 'almost sorta kinda adequate' alternative to 3G (widely-deployed semi-crappy EDGE, instead of uber-crappy GPRS), the rest of the world must too. A classic, and oft-repeated mistake.
But Hill, don't worry about Teno. He's been told all these things many times before, and he still doesn't get it. When it comes to 3G, he's never gotten it, and probably never will.
He's very 'provincial American' in his insistence on not understanding the importance of it.
...
One reason why Apple will do well here, esp now, is because of their very strong financial position.
This Forbes article which arrived in my e-mail tells a compelling story of what we'll be seeing during this recession.
Great point!. We see that even companies like Motorola lives (and possibly die) on the success of one hit model. Namely Razr. Apple can drag iPhone and its variants for years with mediocre volumes and still stay financially sound. The financial dynamics are very very different for other companies.
In a recession, those lesser companies has great pressure to not made a mistake, hence will fall back to safe options. ie not going to see much innovations there. I still don't understand why phone still have a music player where most people already use an iPod or similar MP3 devices that does great music and have very very long battery life. In fact, most music features in handsets are used just to play ringtone and not much more. I am hoping Apple will be aggressive in innovating the phone, MP3 player/nternet tablet and come up with the Mac Tablet or something similar. Apple can afford to make a coupe of screw ups like they did in the Newton days. Their recovery from such mistakes will likely spawn innovations needed to supercharge the market in new directions.
I think they are so good on the OS and software side, there is really no competition. I think they know it. How about leveraging that more so ?
Yup. Americans often make the error of thinking that since they have an 'almost sorta kinda adequate' alternative to 3G (widely-deployed semi-crappy EDGE, instead of uber-crappy GPRS), the rest of the world must too. A classic, and oft-repeated mistake.
But Hill, don't worry about Teno. He's been told all these things many times before, and he still doesn't get it. When it comes to 3G, he's never gotten it, and probably never will.
He's very 'provincial American' in his insistence on not understanding the importance of it.
...
Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).
The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.
Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.
Great point!. We see that even companies like Motorola lives (and possibly die) on the success of one hit model. Namely Razr. Apple can drag iPhone and its variants for years with mediocre volumes and still stay financially sound. The financial dynamics are very very different for other companies.
In a recession, those lesser companies has great pressure to not made a mistake, hence will fall back to safe options. ie not going to see much innovations there. I still don't understand why phone still have a music player where most people already use an iPod or similar MP3 devices that does great music and have very very long battery life. In fact, most music features in handsets are used just to play ringtone and not much more. I am hoping Apple will be aggressive in innovating the phone, MP3 player/nternet tablet and come up with the Mac Tablet or something similar. Apple can afford to make a coupe of screw ups like they did in the Newton days. Their recovery from such mistakes will likely spawn innovations needed to supercharge the market in new directions.
I think they are so good on the OS and software side, there is really no competition. I think they know it. How about leveraging that more so ?
As far as separate music players go, people don't want to carry too many things around. The same thing was said about integrating PDA's with phones in the beginning. Why would people want one device that isn't ideal for either function?
But, as technology moves on, and things get better, it becomes easier to add more functions that work as they're supposed to.
Except for the very cheapest phones and music players, we'll likely see all the rest as a combined device eventually.
Except that US (with a population of 305 million according to wiki) has a higher 3G penetration rate than the 5 largest European countries combined (UK, Germany, France, Italy and Spain with a total population of 301 million according to wiki).
The only people who doesn't understand the issue is you people.
Same thing with the issue of Americans pay for incoming calls --- there are legitimate benefits to the general public consumers for this system of zero termination rates. You need to see the total cost of ownership. If Europeans pay x dollars for 100 minutes of calls (with incoming free) and Americans pay the same x dollars for 250 minutes of calls (and get charged for both incoming and outgoing) --- then Americans get a better deal overall. Enough so that every major western country in Europe is studying it.
This is true. Europeans have often wondered why we get more minutes for the same, or less money. That's the main reason.
As an Australian living in Australia, the 3G is the first officially available iPhone sold here. Unlocked and jailbroken iPhones were quite rare here before July 11, the same could be said for many other countries.
Australia isn't a good example of this. Its not a valid comparison of jailbroken/unlocked sales to sales through an official carrier.
Therefore worldwide sales increased as a direct result of 3G.
Unless you can show a study that uses empirical data that proves iPhone sales increased solely because of 3G, its simply your opinion. I believe 3G helps but I don't see it being the sole reason.
When the iPhone was EDGE only, European carriers reported that data use on the iPhone was far above other phones that were 3G. Market studies that measured world web marketshare found the iPhone marketshare far beyond every other mobile platform. As an OS iPhone with EDGE was only short of Linux for use on the web.
As I said sonny, it's over with.
And yet you still replied...
Unless you can show a study that uses empirical data that proves iPhone sales increased solely because of 3G, its simply your opinion. I believe 3G helps but I don't see it being the sole reason.
Well maybe Apple should have set up an Ebay store selling unlocked and Jailbroken iPhones to drive expansion then, seeing as how some of the world's largest network providers had no interest in selling an iPhone without 3G.
Well maybe Apple should have set up an Ebay store selling unlocked and Jailbroken iPhones to drive expansion then, seeing as how some of the world's largest network providers had no interest in selling an iPhone without 3G.
This doesn't make much sense.
Companies like Vodafone had no interest in selling the original iPhone as it didn't suit their needs ie the expansion of their 3G data networks.
Voice and SMS are a fairly saturated market in developed countries and have been for years, there is not much room for growth.
MMS and Video calling offered some hope but were not terribly successful.
The only thing left is data used by Internet enabled devices.
Enter the iPhone 3G.
850Mhz US band used for HSDPA
2100Mhz Band used by most of the rest of the world for HSDPA.
iPhone 3G is one of the few handsets that cover both.
This is also the reason why not all 3G phone's are available to the US market, or are delayed, in the past most non-US manufacturers have had to make two separate models.
Vodafone Sues T-Mobile Over iPhone Monopoly in Germany
A court case in one country, involving one of the multinational telecommunication's Companies I used as an example.
Some more information about Vodafone who sell the iPhone 3G in quite a few other countries and obviously would like to add Germany to that list.
"Vodafone Group Plc is the world's leading mobile telecommunications company, with a significant presence in Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Asia Pacific and the United States through the Company's subsidiary undertakings, joint ventures, associated undertakings and investments.
The Group's mobile subsidiaries operate under the brand name 'Vodafone'. In the United States the Group's associated undertaking operates as Verizon Wireless. During the last two financial years, the Group has also entered into arrangements with network operators in countries where the Group does not hold an equity stake. Under the terms of these Partner Network Agreements, the Group and its partner networks co-operate in the development and marketing of global services under dual brand logos.
At 30 September 2008, based on the registered customers of mobile telecommunications ventures in which it had ownership interests at that date, the Group had 280 million customers, excluding paging customers, calculated on a proportionate basis in accordance with the Company's percentage interest in these ventures."
A court case in one country, involving one of the multinational telecommunication's Companies I used as an example.
Some more information about Vodafone who sell the iPhone 3G in quite a few other countries and obviously would like to add Germany to that list.