And I don't see the value in showing early releases. It just gives Microsoft more time to copy it all.
The idea that MS has to wait for Apple to publicly release their OS to copy the features is silly. First of all, if they really wanted to get secret information I think they'd have the means to do so. But second - and this makes the first point moot - they happen to still be the biggest developer of Mac apps outside of Apple. Remember that software package called 'Office'? I wouldn't be surprised if MS (and Adobe) have earlier access to Snow Leopard betas than most other developers, or at least have in the past with prior OS X releases.
And then there's the issue of how quickly MS could implement a new feature once they find out about it...
If Snow Leopard comes out early and is buggy and Windows 7 comes out and is OK-ish, then Apple lose this round. If Apple have a release ready, then it's better to do QA for a few months, and release on the same day as Microsoft. With few user-visible features, they will be judged on stability first and then performance.
And I don't see the value in showing early releases. It just gives Microsoft more time to copy it all. Get it ready, release it, then pump the PR machine when they have a stable, fast system. The Wow doesn't need to start now, nor the Boom so soon.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dlux
The idea that MS has to wait for Apple to publicly release their OS to copy the features is silly. First of all, if they really wanted to get secret information I think they'd have the means to do so. But second - and this makes the first point moot - they happen to still be the biggest developer of Mac apps outside of Apple. Remember that software package called 'Office'? I wouldn't be surprised if MS (and Adobe) have earlier access to Snow Leopard betas than most other developers, or at least have in the past with prior OS X releases.
And then there's the issue of how quickly MS could implement a new feature once they find out about it...
Yeah, what were you thinking PXT? Microsoft always copies the next to latest iteration of OS X - sometimes even the one before that!
They're probably just beginning to rip off Leopard's features for Windows 7. From early screen shots, it appears they've finally got a Dock knockoff as well as the contextual menus that pop up when you click-and-hold on Dock application icons.
QuickTime X is the video presentation technology from iPhone...
It only supports playback. We are not talking about Quicktime the Application itself, that can still rely on the old non-playback calls - the backend of the old quicktime is still there...
Its just they are allowing ways to actually play that data and make it ultra-efficient.
This will strongly benefit apps like iTunes and Quicktime itself...
You know afer posting that it dawned on me that RI works both ways. The ability to increase the size of UI helps in some cases for very small screens as well. I notice how effective the zoom features in screencasting apps becomes.
You know afer posting that it dawned on me that RI works both ways. The ability to increase the size of UI helps in some cases for very small screens as well. I notice how effective the zoom features in screencasting apps becomes.
I appreciate the compliment.
I'd imagine that dashboard displays could zoom in and out, with RI, for map directions [Google Maps/Yahoo Maps on steroids] and more.
GPS systems being able to scale in and out, rapidly, around the globe that fit in the palm of your hand would be quite useful for Military, Medical, Forestry, Biologists. etc.
You are probably correct, however, nobody really knows how long Apple has been working on it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JavaCowboy
I can't see how Snow Leopard will ship early. Despite the aforementioned "lack of features", it's actually quite an undertaking. Consider the to do list:
1) All Apple apps 64-bit: Right now, only a couple of Apple's own apps are 64-bit.
2) All Apple apps Cocoa: The Finder, iTunes, and QuickTime, all have some Carbon elements.
3) Grand Central.
4) OpenCL.
5) 64-bit kernel.
6) 64-bit drivers.
7) Quicktime X.
8) (Last but certainly not least) Microsoft Exchange support.
JC the only problem with your list is this. None of us knows how long Apple's been working on the aforementioned technology.
Grand Central was probably started after Panther shipped. We have heard that OpenCL has been a multi-year investment in engineering. Quicktime-X is coming from the iPhone and is only a playback mechanism. Apple's Pro apps have been evolving fairly slow. Final Cut Studio hasn't had a significant upgrade in 2 years. Logic Studio in almost a year and a half. Aperture in a good year.
I think that a March delivery is do-able. They will show SL at MW and deliver a new beta. The beta increase in frequency through mid february hitting RC status and manufacturing puts the OS available sometime by mid March.
Pretty good man, only took you one paragraph to take the plunge yourself. If none of us know how long they have been working on this stuff how is it that a March delivery is do-able?
What I'm more interested in knowing is how Apple plans to monetize Snow Leopard. They can't give it away for free but are they doing any favors by trying to charging full price?
It is a new OS version so it will be $129.00, which will have some people complaining, while others will not. There is no law stating what criteria has to be met to be able to call an OS "new".
Apple has stated that "Snow Leopard" will have out-of-the-box support for MS Exchange, but did they say they will not offer MS Exchange support for "Leopard" in an update? It could be done if Apple creates a Framework specifically for MS Exchange support.
Pretty good man, only took you one paragraph to take the plunge yourself. If none of us know how long they have been working on this stuff how is it that a March delivery is do-able?
The most predictable human response is denial. We are generally cautious by nature it seems. I'm attempting to be a bit more pragmatic. Carbon= deprecated, PPC support is gone, iPhone is now coasting along and looking good. Apple has some of the most productive engineers in the world and now that they don't have worry about evolving Carbon and Cocoa concurrently their lives have likely gotten a whole lot easier. I imagine that after the holliday Apple does a full court press on Snow Leopard and gets that sucker out fast. I could be wrong but I'm betting that 2009 is vastly different than 2008.
Apple has stated that "Snow Leopard" will have out-of-the-box support for MS Exchange, but did they say they will not offer MS Exchange support for "Leopard" in an update? It could be done if Apple creates a Framework specifically for MS Exchange support.
I doubt they'd do that. Apple don't seem to like adding major features to existing OS versions.
The most predictable human response is denial. We are generally cautious by nature it seems. I'm attempting to be a bit more pragmatic. Carbon= deprecated, PPC support is gone, iPhone is now coasting along and looking good. Apple has some of the most productive engineers in the world and now that they don't have worry about evolving Carbon and Cocoa concurrently their lives have likely gotten a whole lot easier. I imagine that after the holliday Apple does a full court press on Snow Leopard and gets that sucker out fast. I could be wrong but I'm betting that 2009 is vastly different than 2008.
And with Cocoa they actually can afford to relocate a large group of engineers to work on other application group projects and future projects.
As an example: SQA at Apple in 1998 was > 500. SQA at NeXT in 1996 was < 30. The huge immediate jump was the necessary dealings that required the testing of Classic, the addition of Carbon and the slow addition of Cocoa.
We're almost at the point of gutting the first two. The numbers of SQA for the OS will drop and be reshuffled to other projects all of which can use the help.
Whatever will you do when Carbon is finally gutted from OS X? Whine some more?
I'm going to presume that comment was not intended for me, given what my comment actually was.
As the Woz just said recently; over the last few years the latest version of OS X just brought him up to date really. Cocoa is not magic pixie dust, and neither will Quicktime X be. As with everything, use in the real world will reveal more than promises ever will.
I'm not whining, I'm just being realistic. I'm not whining at all, that would be useless.
I'm going to presume that comment was not intended for me, given what my comment actually was.
As the Woz just said recently; over the last few years the latest version of OS X just brought him up to date really. Cocoa is not magic pixie dust, and neither will Quicktime X be. As with everything, use in the real world will reveal more than promises ever will.
I'm not whining, I'm just being realistic. I'm not whining at all, that would be useless.
Realistic? I'd go with skeptical/cynical.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ireland
Yeah, and it's also marketing wrapped in a fancy name.
"Marketing wrapped in a fancy name." So it's not even real, just marketing speak, when in reality, QuickTime X already exists in the iPhone/iPod touch. So in fact, it appears you're being unrealistic and...a tad facetious.
I'm going to presume that comment was not intended for me, given what my comment actually was.
As the Woz just said recently; over the last few years the latest version of OS X just brought him up to date really. Cocoa is not magic pixie dust, and neither will Quicktime X be. As with everything, use in the real world will reveal more than promises ever will.
I'm not whining, I'm just being realistic. I'm not whining at all, that would be useless.
Cocoa has been running around with one hand tied behind it's back because of Carbon. The amount of time Apple spent kissing the collective asses of Microsoft, Adobe and Macromedia has finally paid off, because of the iPod and the iPhone having OS X ported to them.
Now that freedom gets returned in spades.
Quark was smart to move it's applications to Cocoa.
Adobe Lightroom was a smart move for Adobe.
Microsoft Office no longer has leverage with Open Office 3.0 and soon Applescript built-into Open Office 3.1, plus full Cocoa.
Microsoft is now embracing ODF 1.2. They either embrace it or see the single biggest money making portion of their entire corporate structure dwindle away.
Why? Over 90% of the nearly 24 Million OpenOffice 3.0 downloads come from Windows.
Only 3.7% come from OS X.
Hell, almost 5% comes from Linux.
Apple can continue to extend their Office suite, add ODF and actually leverage Open Office 3.x through Services ala Cocoa.
Cocoa has been running around with one hand tied behind it's back because of Carbon. The amount of time Apple spent kissing the collective asses of Microsoft, Adobe and Macromedia has finally paid off, because of the iPod and the iPhone having OS X ported to them.
Microsoft Office no longer has leverage with Open Office 3.0 and soon Applescript built-into Open Office 3.1, plus full Cocoa.
Apple can continue to extend their Office suite, add ODF and actually leverage Open Office 3.x through Services ala Cocoa.
Apple's in a sweet position.
They are indeed and they didn't even have to seriously encroach on Adobe or Microsoft's territory all that much. iWork is a good program but it's not going to supplant Office in big companies.
Honestly I rarely run across developers that have issues with Cocoa. No it doesn't scramble your eggs for you and make the bed but there's a lot of stuff you get "free" with it. Cocoa hasn't been able to grow as quickly because Carbon was sapping resources. I read a good summary regarding WWDC 2008 (no NDA was broken) where it was made clear to developers that many of the things they had to call Carbon for will be handled in Cocoa in SL. Apple's fixing the areas where Cocoa hadn't gotten a foothold.
Comments
Quicktime- on- iPhone? Really? Somehow I missed that App? or how the camera records Quicktime video?
Quicktime X
And I don't see the value in showing early releases. It just gives Microsoft more time to copy it all.
The idea that MS has to wait for Apple to publicly release their OS to copy the features is silly. First of all, if they really wanted to get secret information I think they'd have the means to do so. But second - and this makes the first point moot - they happen to still be the biggest developer of Mac apps outside of Apple. Remember that software package called 'Office'? I wouldn't be surprised if MS (and Adobe) have earlier access to Snow Leopard betas than most other developers, or at least have in the past with prior OS X releases.
And then there's the issue of how quickly MS could implement a new feature once they find out about it...
If Snow Leopard comes out early and is buggy and Windows 7 comes out and is OK-ish, then Apple lose this round. If Apple have a release ready, then it's better to do QA for a few months, and release on the same day as Microsoft. With few user-visible features, they will be judged on stability first and then performance.
And I don't see the value in showing early releases. It just gives Microsoft more time to copy it all. Get it ready, release it, then pump the PR machine when they have a stable, fast system. The Wow doesn't need to start now, nor the Boom so soon.
The idea that MS has to wait for Apple to publicly release their OS to copy the features is silly. First of all, if they really wanted to get secret information I think they'd have the means to do so. But second - and this makes the first point moot - they happen to still be the biggest developer of Mac apps outside of Apple. Remember that software package called 'Office'? I wouldn't be surprised if MS (and Adobe) have earlier access to Snow Leopard betas than most other developers, or at least have in the past with prior OS X releases.
And then there's the issue of how quickly MS could implement a new feature once they find out about it...
Yeah, what were you thinking PXT? Microsoft always copies the next to latest iteration of OS X - sometimes even the one before that!
They're probably just beginning to rip off Leopard's features for Windows 7. From early screen shots, it appears they've finally got a Dock knockoff as well as the contextual menus that pop up when you click-and-hold on Dock application icons.
Oh and look, Windows 7's Leopard Stacks knockoff:
Quicktime X
OK... for anyone who doesn't know...
QuickTime X is the video presentation technology from iPhone...
It only supports playback. We are not talking about Quicktime the Application itself, that can still rely on the old non-playback calls - the backend of the old quicktime is still there...
Its just they are allowing ways to actually play that data and make it ultra-efficient.
This will strongly benefit apps like iTunes and Quicktime itself...
I've stopped caring about resolution independence. I've seen bupkiss evolution in the PPI of LCD panels.
We won't see RI in monitors until Kodak's work on OLED makes it affordable for large screen displays.
December Interview with Kodak Pioneers in OLED:
http://www.oled-info.com/kodak-oled-...-oled-lighting
Read it carefully: Solid State Lighting coming first.
Latest status on OLED technology from Kodak that includes Screen displays.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US
We won't see RI in monitors until Kodak's work on OLED makes it affordable for large screen displays.
December Interview with Kodak Pioneers in OLED:
http://www.oled-info.com/kodak-oled-...-oled-lighting
Read it carefully: Solid State Lighting coming first.
Latest status on OLED technology from Kodak that includes Screen displays.
http://www.kodak.com/eknec/PageQueri...q-locale=en_US
Man you always have the best links!
You know afer posting that it dawned on me that RI works both ways. The ability to increase the size of UI helps in some cases for very small screens as well. I notice how effective the zoom features in screencasting apps becomes.
Man you always have the best links!
You know afer posting that it dawned on me that RI works both ways. The ability to increase the size of UI helps in some cases for very small screens as well. I notice how effective the zoom features in screencasting apps becomes.
I appreciate the compliment.
I'd imagine that dashboard displays could zoom in and out, with RI, for map directions [Google Maps/Yahoo Maps on steroids] and more.
GPS systems being able to scale in and out, rapidly, around the globe that fit in the palm of your hand would be quite useful for Military, Medical, Forestry, Biologists. etc.
I can't see how Snow Leopard will ship early. Despite the aforementioned "lack of features", it's actually quite an undertaking. Consider the to do list:
1) All Apple apps 64-bit: Right now, only a couple of Apple's own apps are 64-bit.
2) All Apple apps Cocoa: The Finder, iTunes, and QuickTime, all have some Carbon elements.
3) Grand Central.
4) OpenCL.
5) 64-bit kernel.
6) 64-bit drivers.
7) Quicktime X.
8) (Last but certainly not least) Microsoft Exchange support.
There's no way they're delivering this early.
JC the only problem with your list is this. None of us knows how long Apple's been working on the aforementioned technology.
Grand Central was probably started after Panther shipped. We have heard that OpenCL has been a multi-year investment in engineering. Quicktime-X is coming from the iPhone and is only a playback mechanism. Apple's Pro apps have been evolving fairly slow. Final Cut Studio hasn't had a significant upgrade in 2 years. Logic Studio in almost a year and a half. Aperture in a good year.
I think that a March delivery is do-able. They will show SL at MW and deliver a new beta. The beta increase in frequency through mid february hitting RC status and manufacturing puts the OS available sometime by mid March.
Pretty good man, only took you one paragraph to take the plunge yourself. If none of us know how long they have been working on this stuff how is it that a March delivery is do-able?
What I'm more interested in knowing is how Apple plans to monetize Snow Leopard. They can't give it away for free but are they doing any favors by trying to charging full price?
It is a new OS version so it will be $129.00, which will have some people complaining, while others will not. There is no law stating what criteria has to be met to be able to call an OS "new".
Apple has stated that "Snow Leopard" will have out-of-the-box support for MS Exchange, but did they say they will not offer MS Exchange support for "Leopard" in an update? It could be done if Apple creates a Framework specifically for MS Exchange support.
Pretty good man, only took you one paragraph to take the plunge yourself. If none of us know how long they have been working on this stuff how is it that a March delivery is do-able?
The most predictable human response is denial. We are generally cautious by nature it seems. I'm attempting to be a bit more pragmatic. Carbon= deprecated, PPC support is gone, iPhone is now coasting along and looking good. Apple has some of the most productive engineers in the world and now that they don't have worry about evolving Carbon and Cocoa concurrently their lives have likely gotten a whole lot easier. I imagine that after the holliday Apple does a full court press on Snow Leopard and gets that sucker out fast. I could be wrong but I'm betting that 2009 is vastly different than 2008.
Apple has stated that "Snow Leopard" will have out-of-the-box support for MS Exchange, but did they say they will not offer MS Exchange support for "Leopard" in an update? It could be done if Apple creates a Framework specifically for MS Exchange support.
I doubt they'd do that. Apple don't seem to like adding major features to existing OS versions.
QuickTime X is the video presentation technology from iPhone..
Yeah, and it's also marketing wrapped in a fancy name.
Like "Cocoa", of which there is actually no chocolate inside.
Yeah, and it's also marketing wrapped in a fancy name.
Like "Cocoa", of which there is actually no chocolate inside.
Whatever will you do when Carbon is finally gutted from OS X? Whine some more?
The most predictable human response is denial. We are generally cautious by nature it seems. I'm attempting to be a bit more pragmatic. Carbon= deprecated, PPC support is gone, iPhone is now coasting along and looking good. Apple has some of the most productive engineers in the world and now that they don't have worry about evolving Carbon and Cocoa concurrently their lives have likely gotten a whole lot easier. I imagine that after the holliday Apple does a full court press on Snow Leopard and gets that sucker out fast. I could be wrong but I'm betting that 2009 is vastly different than 2008.
And with Cocoa they actually can afford to relocate a large group of engineers to work on other application group projects and future projects.
As an example: SQA at Apple in 1998 was > 500. SQA at NeXT in 1996 was < 30. The huge immediate jump was the necessary dealings that required the testing of Classic, the addition of Carbon and the slow addition of Cocoa.
We're almost at the point of gutting the first two. The numbers of SQA for the OS will drop and be reshuffled to other projects all of which can use the help.
Whatever will you do when Carbon is finally gutted from OS X? Whine some more?
I'm going to presume that comment was not intended for me, given what my comment actually was.
As the Woz just said recently; over the last few years the latest version of OS X just brought him up to date really. Cocoa is not magic pixie dust, and neither will Quicktime X be. As with everything, use in the real world will reveal more than promises ever will.
I'm not whining, I'm just being realistic. I'm not whining at all, that would be useless.
I'm going to presume that comment was not intended for me, given what my comment actually was.
As the Woz just said recently; over the last few years the latest version of OS X just brought him up to date really. Cocoa is not magic pixie dust, and neither will Quicktime X be. As with everything, use in the real world will reveal more than promises ever will.
I'm not whining, I'm just being realistic. I'm not whining at all, that would be useless.
Realistic? I'd go with skeptical/cynical.
Yeah, and it's also marketing wrapped in a fancy name.
"Marketing wrapped in a fancy name." So it's not even real, just marketing speak, when in reality, QuickTime X already exists in the iPhone/iPod touch. So in fact, it appears you're being unrealistic and...a tad facetious.
I'm going to presume that comment was not intended for me, given what my comment actually was.
As the Woz just said recently; over the last few years the latest version of OS X just brought him up to date really. Cocoa is not magic pixie dust, and neither will Quicktime X be. As with everything, use in the real world will reveal more than promises ever will.
I'm not whining, I'm just being realistic. I'm not whining at all, that would be useless.
Cocoa has been running around with one hand tied behind it's back because of Carbon. The amount of time Apple spent kissing the collective asses of Microsoft, Adobe and Macromedia has finally paid off, because of the iPod and the iPhone having OS X ported to them.
Now that freedom gets returned in spades.
Quark was smart to move it's applications to Cocoa.
Adobe Lightroom was a smart move for Adobe.
Microsoft Office no longer has leverage with Open Office 3.0 and soon Applescript built-into Open Office 3.1, plus full Cocoa.
Microsoft is now embracing ODF 1.2. They either embrace it or see the single biggest money making portion of their entire corporate structure dwindle away.
Why? Over 90% of the nearly 24 Million OpenOffice 3.0 downloads come from Windows.
Only 3.7% come from OS X.
Hell, almost 5% comes from Linux.
Apple can continue to extend their Office suite, add ODF and actually leverage Open Office 3.x through Services ala Cocoa.
Apple's in a sweet position.
Cocoa has been running around with one hand tied behind it's back because of Carbon. The amount of time Apple spent kissing the collective asses of Microsoft, Adobe and Macromedia has finally paid off, because of the iPod and the iPhone having OS X ported to them.
Microsoft Office no longer has leverage with Open Office 3.0 and soon Applescript built-into Open Office 3.1, plus full Cocoa.
Apple can continue to extend their Office suite, add ODF and actually leverage Open Office 3.x through Services ala Cocoa.
Apple's in a sweet position.
They are indeed and they didn't even have to seriously encroach on Adobe or Microsoft's territory all that much. iWork is a good program but it's not going to supplant Office in big companies.
Honestly I rarely run across developers that have issues with Cocoa. No it doesn't scramble your eggs for you and make the bed but there's a lot of stuff you get "free" with it. Cocoa hasn't been able to grow as quickly because Carbon was sapping resources. I read a good summary regarding WWDC 2008 (no NDA was broken) where it was made clear to developers that many of the things they had to call Carbon for will be handled in Cocoa in SL. Apple's fixing the areas where Cocoa hadn't gotten a foothold.
We can now get back to "rapid" development.