As has been reported elsewhere, the display port on the new Macbook's is DRM "enabled", restricting the ability to play DVDs, or instance, on an external display.
If this is the case on the new Mac Mini, one of the prime uses for the mini as a media center will go away.
The DRM protection on the mini DisplayPort is limited to high def content, so it shouldn't affect playing DVDs. As no Mac can currently play a Blu-ray disc, it only affects playing back downloaded HD content. And the LED Cinema Display (24") supports HDCP so the only problem for a home media center would be hooking the new computer to an old display that does not support HDCP. There are plenty of old LCD and Plasma monitors out there that lack the modern HDCP support found in the HDMI equipped more modern displays.
I am thrilled that the Mac-mini can be used as a door stop in the future, but what about the appearance of the 17" Mac Book Pro at MWSF? I can't believe we haven't heard any rumors about it.
Not at this 90 minute short keynote. Next month is a better chance of the new 17" MacBook Pro and iMac getting the new quad-core option that started shipping Dec. 28, 2008.
This is a bit of a non-story as far as I'm concerned.
Apple stated that they are putting Mini DisplayPort into every product from now on, so its inclusion is hardly a surprise.
Unlike the other members of the Macintosh family, the Mac mini is explicitly designed to work with a switcher's existing display - hence the need for Mini-DVI. A new mini which could only drive Apples LED Cinema Display wouldn't be much of a switcher machine.
I expect the Mac Pro to go down exactly the same route.
The mac pro uses full size ati and nvidia cards not build in ports so they don't need a mini port on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wobegon
FW400 is dead to Apple. If Firewire as a whole were dead to them, they wouldn't have left FW800 on the MacBook Pro. So unless Apple feels like putting FW800 on their budget, consumer mini-tower, it will use USB2 exclusively. They'll gladly up sell people to iMacs (or MacBooks). The Mac mini is targeted towards switchers who want a taste, but once they see the iMac, they often give up their big, old, clunky CRT or puny LCD for an all in one experience.. The Mac mini also just makes Apple's entire line of premium computers seem more affordable because it starts at $600 and goes up from there, rather than Apple's cheapest computer - without the Mac mini, it would be the MacBook - starting at $1000.
Or lose the sale to Psystar If apple had a good desktop tower at $800 - $1200+ then Psystar will be dead.
I have 2 Powermac G4 mirror door machines - one single, one dual processor, with the ATI video card with 2 connectors, the ADC, and a DVI. Both of these machines are hooked up to dual displays - and Apple studio monitor, and a 19 inch LCD. It works perfectly.
The original poster was referring to a much older model which had a lower VRAM equipped video card. The circa late 2000 Power Macintosh G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) came with the first video card with a ADC connector (another Apple exclusive), the ATI RAGE 128 Pro had just 16MB of video RAM but could drive either a ADC monitor OR a DVI monitor. That DVI monitor could have been adapted to a VGA monitor with a simple adapter.
If DisplayPort monitors are daisy chainable they how come there is no mini-displayport connector on the Apple LED Cinema Display?
The spec allows for daisy chaining, that doesn't mean Apple will support it. There are many things that Apple chooses not to support because the number of users is to low for them to bother with supporting.
However, Apple or a 3rd-party could make an adapter that goes between the machine and the monitor that allows for multiple monitor support.
The Mini is used in a huge variety of applications and a great number of those require analog video. Putting mini-dp into VGA, component or s-video would be near impossible. However, people will also need to drive high-end Cinema displays so having both covers all options and there is enough room.
Bingo. I need a Mini to power an analog projector. If these new mini's only had DisplayPort, I wouldn't (couldn't) buy one. Having mini-DVI integrated means that I can gladly buy a handful of them for my application. This is a huge huge deal for a lot of people who use Mini's.
They said DP tech I don't thing you will see a full size mac pro video card with mini DP maybe full DP to mini DP.
The mac mini may not have the room for full DP. I should have dual mini DP with mini DP to DVI + DVI to VGA and mini dp to full DP.
Apple has included special Apple only video cards, such as the ADC equipped models in early/mid Power Mac G4 models, so it's quite possible the only video cards offered for a next-gen Mac Pro could in fact have a pair of mini-DP connections which would favor future Apple displays and support, with a apple supplied mini-DP to DVI or dual-link DVI adapter or two, legacy Apple displays or 3rd party displays. The Mac mini does not use a standard PCI or PCI express slot for video support, it uses a custom motherboard similar but not identical that used on the MacBook, so while it may be possible Apple could put in a pair of mini-DP on the motherboard considering the space within the current enclosure (regardless of any cosmetic changes), I don't see Apple considering that to be in the interest of the intended market. It seems more likely as Apple is promoting the use of HD tapeless camcorders which tend to use USB 2.0 and not FireWire, then they are more likely to replace the DVI-I with a USB port plus a mini-DP port. They could also go the way of offering a FW800 port instead of the FW400 port in order to offer faster performance in the same backplane space like the 15" MacBook Pro, which would then be easily and cheaply adapted to FW400 for those that need that connection.
The spec allows for daisy chaining, that doesn't mean Apple will support it. There are many things that Apple chooses not to support because the number of users is to low for them to bother with supporting.
However, Apple or a 3rd-party could make an adapter that goes between the machine and the monitor that allows for multiple monitor support.
Some form of Y cable? Does the spec allow for that? You don't see FireWire Y cables, but discrete connections for upstream and downstream use. And FireWire bus technology supports addressing logical targets, thus you can copy something to drive A and drive B at the same time. Does DisplayPort tech spec allow for that kind of thing? I don't know. I would tend to think even if the specs support it, Apple won't go for it. A next gen iMac with display port would support just the one external display just like now via the mini-DVI to DVI connection. The only true external dual display machine is the Mac Pro which has two discrete DVI connections. I'd have to assume the next gen Mac Pro (Tuesday I hope) would be offered with a choice of video cards, both with twin mini DisplayPorts. That seems to be the Steve Jobs way.
Bingo. I need a Mini to power an analog projector. If these new mini's only had DisplayPort, I wouldn't (couldn't) buy one. Having mini-DVI integrated means that I can gladly buy a handful of them for my application. This is a huge huge deal for a lot of people who use Mini's.
Why doesn't Apple put an HDMI port on the Mini? It would be so much better than AppleTV. Or conversely, why doesn't AppleTV offer a regular Leopard interface? Then you could use use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and use your HDTV like a regular Mac.
Why doesn't Apple put an HDMI port on the Mini? It would be so much better than AppleTV. Or conversely, why doesn't AppleTV offer a regular Leopard interface? Then you could use use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and use your HDTV like a regular Mac.
The AppleTV is designed to be a media extended, not a PC. While the Mac Mini is designed to be a PC, not a media extender.
Why doesn't Apple put an HDMI port on the Mini? It would be so much better than AppleTV. Or conversely, why doesn't AppleTV offer a regular Leopard interface? Then you could use use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and use your HDTV like a regular Mac.
The reason is the Mac mini is targeted as a home computer not a consumer electronics home media server. consumer electronics use HDMI and computers use DVI. look in the computer section of a Best Buy for example, and you will see the COMPUTER monitors have DVI or lower end VGA connections (if not both). Over in the TV section, you'll see TVs with HDMI inputs, designed for DVD and blu-ray disc players and a very few high end Super VHS tape decks, and some HD camcorders and perhaps the output from a AV receiver which has HDMI input switching. Different target audience. Of course there are non-Apple computer displays with various inputs including HDMI and there are TVs with DVI or VGA inputs for the crossover markets you seem to be interested in. Apple doesn't seem interested in this besides the AppleTV which has a HDMI output because it's targeted at plugging into a wide screen TV.
If I purchase a new HDTV is it better to purchase one with DVI/HDCP?
Yes, you will want to purchase a television with DVI/HDCP or HDMI/HDCP. In my opinion, the best purchase option for a TV or any consumer electronics device (DVD player, DVR, set-top box) is one with HDMI/HDCP. DVI is an old format, and is secondary to HDMI. HDMI has room for growth, and because it has support from some of the major consumer electronics manufacturers, it?s hard to see it being replaced in the next decade or so. Regardless, buying a TV without either input would be a bad decision if you want to ensure usability of the TV a decade from now. Some televisions come with both inputs.
They both use TMDS transmission/receiving but of course HDMI has 8 channels of LPCM audio.
In fact even Firewire supports copy protection (5C encyption)
If Firewire goes away, has anyone come up with an alternative to Target Disk Mode? I have had to use target disk mode many times, particularly on development machines, to recover from some screw up. Time machine is a poor substitute, as you can't boot from TM. Carbon Copy Cloner, Superduper and iBackup, all allow the creation of bootable backups, but can you keep these bootable images current? I guess you would need to do both TM and a disk image to account for lack of Firewire. Target disk mode is just such a powerful tool, it is a shame that it does away with Firewire, and has no replacement.
As the Macbook sans Firewire has been out there a couple months, has anyone addressed this limitation??
Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.
Apple could do a HDCP equipped DVI port, but they seem to be switching to mini DisplayPort in order to save physical space and to encourage Mac users to buy their new displays and avoid various adapters.
Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.
I haven't tried CCC lately but when I tried a backup with CCC 3 not too long ago, it seemed slow so I checked the disk activity throughput and I/O operations per second with Activity Monitor, and there seemed to be longer periods of little activity with CCC 3 compared to SuperDuper! 2.5 which had better throughput. Has version 3.1.3 been upgraded so much that it is now competitive?
Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.
Apple recently modified Target Disk Mode to work over Ethernet.
Comments
As has been reported elsewhere, the display port on the new Macbook's is DRM "enabled", restricting the ability to play DVDs, or instance, on an external display.
If this is the case on the new Mac Mini, one of the prime uses for the mini as a media center will go away.
The DRM protection on the mini DisplayPort is limited to high def content, so it shouldn't affect playing DVDs. As no Mac can currently play a Blu-ray disc, it only affects playing back downloaded HD content. And the LED Cinema Display (24") supports HDCP so the only problem for a home media center would be hooking the new computer to an old display that does not support HDCP. There are plenty of old LCD and Plasma monitors out there that lack the modern HDCP support found in the HDMI equipped more modern displays.
I am thrilled that the Mac-mini can be used as a door stop in the future, but what about the appearance of the 17" Mac Book Pro at MWSF? I can't believe we haven't heard any rumors about it.
Not at this 90 minute short keynote. Next month is a better chance of the new 17" MacBook Pro and iMac getting the new quad-core option that started shipping Dec. 28, 2008.
This is a bit of a non-story as far as I'm concerned.
Apple stated that they are putting Mini DisplayPort into every product from now on, so its inclusion is hardly a surprise.
.
They said DP tech I don't thing you will see a full size mac pro video card with mini DP maybe full DP to mini DP.
The mac mini may not have the room for full DP. I should have dual mini DP with mini DP to DVI + DVI to VGA and mini dp to full DP.
This is a bit of a non-story as far as I'm concerned.
Apple stated that they are putting Mini DisplayPort into every product from now on, so its inclusion is hardly a surprise.
Unlike the other members of the Macintosh family, the Mac mini is explicitly designed to work with a switcher's existing display - hence the need for Mini-DVI. A new mini which could only drive Apples LED Cinema Display wouldn't be much of a switcher machine.
I expect the Mac Pro to go down exactly the same route.
The mac pro uses full size ati and nvidia cards not build in ports so they don't need a mini port on them.
FW400 is dead to Apple. If Firewire as a whole were dead to them, they wouldn't have left FW800 on the MacBook Pro. So unless Apple feels like putting FW800 on their budget, consumer mini-tower, it will use USB2 exclusively. They'll gladly up sell people to iMacs (or MacBooks). The Mac mini is targeted towards switchers who want a taste, but once they see the iMac, they often give up their big, old, clunky CRT or puny LCD for an all in one experience.. The Mac mini also just makes Apple's entire line of premium computers seem more affordable because it starts at $600 and goes up from there, rather than Apple's cheapest computer - without the Mac mini, it would be the MacBook - starting at $1000.
Or lose the sale to Psystar If apple had a good desktop tower at $800 - $1200+ then Psystar will be dead.
If the DisplayPort has HDCP, I guarantee you the DVI port will as well.
If the DVI port had HDCP, it would be an HDMI port.
I have 2 Powermac G4 mirror door machines - one single, one dual processor, with the ATI video card with 2 connectors, the ADC, and a DVI. Both of these machines are hooked up to dual displays - and Apple studio monitor, and a 19 inch LCD. It works perfectly.
The original poster was referring to a much older model which had a lower VRAM equipped video card. The circa late 2000 Power Macintosh G4 (Gigabit Ethernet) came with the first video card with a ADC connector (another Apple exclusive), the ATI RAGE 128 Pro had just 16MB of video RAM but could drive either a ADC monitor OR a DVI monitor. That DVI monitor could have been adapted to a VGA monitor with a simple adapter.
If DisplayPort monitors are daisy chainable they how come there is no mini-displayport connector on the Apple LED Cinema Display?
The spec allows for daisy chaining, that doesn't mean Apple will support it. There are many things that Apple chooses not to support because the number of users is to low for them to bother with supporting.
However, Apple or a 3rd-party could make an adapter that goes between the machine and the monitor that allows for multiple monitor support.
The Mini is used in a huge variety of applications and a great number of those require analog video. Putting mini-dp into VGA, component or s-video would be near impossible. However, people will also need to drive high-end Cinema displays so having both covers all options and there is enough room.
Bingo. I need a Mini to power an analog projector. If these new mini's only had DisplayPort, I wouldn't (couldn't) buy one. Having mini-DVI integrated means that I can gladly buy a handful of them for my application. This is a huge huge deal for a lot of people who use Mini's.
They said DP tech I don't thing you will see a full size mac pro video card with mini DP maybe full DP to mini DP.
The mac mini may not have the room for full DP. I should have dual mini DP with mini DP to DVI + DVI to VGA and mini dp to full DP.
Apple has included special Apple only video cards, such as the ADC equipped models in early/mid Power Mac G4 models, so it's quite possible the only video cards offered for a next-gen Mac Pro could in fact have a pair of mini-DP connections which would favor future Apple displays and support, with a apple supplied mini-DP to DVI or dual-link DVI adapter or two, legacy Apple displays or 3rd party displays. The Mac mini does not use a standard PCI or PCI express slot for video support, it uses a custom motherboard similar but not identical that used on the MacBook, so while it may be possible Apple could put in a pair of mini-DP on the motherboard considering the space within the current enclosure (regardless of any cosmetic changes), I don't see Apple considering that to be in the interest of the intended market. It seems more likely as Apple is promoting the use of HD tapeless camcorders which tend to use USB 2.0 and not FireWire, then they are more likely to replace the DVI-I with a USB port plus a mini-DP port. They could also go the way of offering a FW800 port instead of the FW400 port in order to offer faster performance in the same backplane space like the 15" MacBook Pro, which would then be easily and cheaply adapted to FW400 for those that need that connection.
The spec allows for daisy chaining, that doesn't mean Apple will support it. There are many things that Apple chooses not to support because the number of users is to low for them to bother with supporting.
However, Apple or a 3rd-party could make an adapter that goes between the machine and the monitor that allows for multiple monitor support.
Some form of Y cable? Does the spec allow for that? You don't see FireWire Y cables, but discrete connections for upstream and downstream use. And FireWire bus technology supports addressing logical targets, thus you can copy something to drive A and drive B at the same time. Does DisplayPort tech spec allow for that kind of thing? I don't know. I would tend to think even if the specs support it, Apple won't go for it. A next gen iMac with display port would support just the one external display just like now via the mini-DVI to DVI connection. The only true external dual display machine is the Mac Pro which has two discrete DVI connections. I'd have to assume the next gen Mac Pro (Tuesday I hope) would be offered with a choice of video cards, both with twin mini DisplayPorts. That seems to be the Steve Jobs way.
Bingo. I need a Mini to power an analog projector. If these new mini's only had DisplayPort, I wouldn't (couldn't) buy one. Having mini-DVI integrated means that I can gladly buy a handful of them for my application. This is a huge huge deal for a lot of people who use Mini's.
Apple makes a Mini DisplayPort to VGA adapter for your analog projector. For example see http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/...mfg=MB572Z%2FA
Why doesn't Apple put an HDMI port on the Mini? It would be so much better than AppleTV. Or conversely, why doesn't AppleTV offer a regular Leopard interface? Then you could use use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and use your HDTV like a regular Mac.
The AppleTV is designed to be a media extended, not a PC. While the Mac Mini is designed to be a PC, not a media extender.
Why doesn't Apple put an HDMI port on the Mini? It would be so much better than AppleTV. Or conversely, why doesn't AppleTV offer a regular Leopard interface? Then you could use use a bluetooth keyboard/mouse and use your HDTV like a regular Mac.
The reason is the Mac mini is targeted as a home computer not a consumer electronics home media server. consumer electronics use HDMI and computers use DVI. look in the computer section of a Best Buy for example, and you will see the COMPUTER monitors have DVI or lower end VGA connections (if not both). Over in the TV section, you'll see TVs with HDMI inputs, designed for DVD and blu-ray disc players and a very few high end Super VHS tape decks, and some HD camcorders and perhaps the output from a AV receiver which has HDMI input switching. Different target audience. Of course there are non-Apple computer displays with various inputs including HDMI and there are TVs with DVI or VGA inputs for the crossover markets you seem to be interested in. Apple doesn't seem interested in this besides the AppleTV which has a HDMI output because it's targeted at plugging into a wide screen TV.
If the DVI port had HDCP, it would be an HDMI port.
No actually there are DVI connections with/without HDCP
http://tv.about.com/od/hdtv/a/hdmidvihdcp.htm
If I purchase a new HDTV is it better to purchase one with DVI/HDCP?
Yes, you will want to purchase a television with DVI/HDCP or HDMI/HDCP. In my opinion, the best purchase option for a TV or any consumer electronics device (DVD player, DVR, set-top box) is one with HDMI/HDCP. DVI is an old format, and is secondary to HDMI. HDMI has room for growth, and because it has support from some of the major consumer electronics manufacturers, it?s hard to see it being replaced in the next decade or so. Regardless, buying a TV without either input would be a bad decision if you want to ensure usability of the TV a decade from now. Some televisions come with both inputs.
They both use TMDS transmission/receiving but of course HDMI has 8 channels of LPCM audio.
In fact even Firewire supports copy protection (5C encyption)
If the DVI port had HDCP, it would be an HDMI port.
No. It would be a DVI port with HDCP.
If Firewire goes away, has anyone come up with an alternative to Target Disk Mode? I have had to use target disk mode many times, particularly on development machines, to recover from some screw up. Time machine is a poor substitute, as you can't boot from TM. Carbon Copy Cloner, Superduper and iBackup, all allow the creation of bootable backups, but can you keep these bootable images current? I guess you would need to do both TM and a disk image to account for lack of Firewire. Target disk mode is just such a powerful tool, it is a shame that it does away with Firewire, and has no replacement.
As the Macbook sans Firewire has been out there a couple months, has anyone addressed this limitation??
Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.
No. It would be a DVI port with HDCP.
Apple could do a HDCP equipped DVI port, but they seem to be switching to mini DisplayPort in order to save physical space and to encourage Mac users to buy their new displays and avoid various adapters.
Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.
I haven't tried CCC lately but when I tried a backup with CCC 3 not too long ago, it seemed slow so I checked the disk activity throughput and I/O operations per second with Activity Monitor, and there seemed to be longer periods of little activity with CCC 3 compared to SuperDuper! 2.5 which had better throughput. Has version 3.1.3 been upgraded so much that it is now competitive?
Migration Assistant paired with Time Machine is Apple's solution to this, Migration Assistant will let you save a drive image to another external USB drive, and Time Machine is supposed to eliminate the need for CCC or SuperDuper, albeit, CCC is much faster.
Apple recently modified Target Disk Mode to work over Ethernet.