Windows 7 vs. Mac OS X Snow Leopard: competitive origins

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  • Reply 41 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    What are your qualms about SP3? I've installed it on probably 100 machines now, and almost without failure it improves performance and stability.



    Personally, I am happy about Windows 7. Downloaded the beta last week as soon as it came out. Much faster than Vista and rumoredly supposed to work well on old machines. Can tell you its a breeze to set up new devices and the OS no longer treats you like your're a dumb dumb. It is also very very fast.



    For me, when I upgraded to Vista, I could not get updates for my firewire audio device (longer than one (1) year), so I went back to XP and built a hack n tosh. I was surprised at how fast it ran compared to a dual G5 for a fraction of the cost. At work, we had macs but I had never purchased a mac, a few months later, I bought a Macbook Pro Matte, then a glossy 2.4 (10 months old this month).



    For me, I think that OSX is stellar, however, windows 7 is really, really good too and I think that corporate will do fine with it. For years I was a huge advocate of the PC, especially when Apple would release a G4 and state it's faster when in fact I would benchmark both and see the PC RENDER much faster, or use MORE PLUG INS for audio (FPU dependent) and it wasn't until the INTEL TRANSITION that I became a believer and felt it was a great investment.



    Anyway, MSFT should do well as many corp., small business and even end users, will probably upgrade if they are NON VISTA users, more so if MSFT comes out with one price (doubtful). Am also hoping for this new tech consultant position where they use mostly MACS and have copies of Snow Leopard and will get to play with this too.



    Lastly, I read a story not to long ago that makes a lot of sense, first, we know that Gates and Jobs think differently and one is more RIGHT brained, the other, LEFT brained, but the real story is, back in the day, IBM had all the large computers and in the 70's, when computing started to come out via the radio shack models, then 80's with the person PC, IBM (which old folk still call machines IBM clones and I barely remember that terminology but have heard it) and IBM thought they would release IBM personal PC's with the assumption that trained technical people would control the machines where the end user basically had a terminal. Gates was hired to deliver an OS that would indeed be like this and some say it wasn't until Apple that the computer really became personal and I remember (very young) some of the first LONG boxed Mac's that had a tiny black and white screen. Ironically, the PC in a way, still has the struggles of bugs and weird stuff like that and I feel that at the CORE of the PC, it still contains items that need to be re-written in order for the Windows PC to be truly personal and we won't see that happen until a whole code is re-written.



    One would think with the likes of Sun's "Project Looking Glass" OS (2003) that was way ahead of Windows and Apple, that we would see more choices in Operating Systems and am surprised that no one has attempted to write a new OS in addition to the open sourced Linux (Ubuntu/Red Hat), and maybe someday we will see something new from a new party. Until then, use what suits you best, or if like me, use all three. Windows, Apple, Linux, although Linux is more or less, just for fun.



    Peace all.
  • Reply 42 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I respectfully disagree and here is why.



    Snow Leopard isn't sexy for a consumer because they need a new UI or app to appreciate the differences. I don't expect some people to get excited about Snow Leopard when they couldn't even see the value of Leopard.



    Snow Leopard represents a new path. While we tend to gloss over GrandCentral it is such an important technology many haven't fully absorbed the impact it will make along with kernel improvements.



    Snow Leopard ushers in a new era in which compute resources are managed effectively and dynamically. GrandCentral is the cop that will smartly leverage the GPU, CPU, and another other compute resource without the developer hand holding the process.



    Windows 7 is nice but has Microsoft expanded on the fundamentals of task and data management at such a low level in the OS? Apple has.



    SL is the starters pistol going off for the next generation of Apple OS. Everything changes from now on.



    I know I'm not the average consumer, but I am probably the MOST excited for GrandCentral.



    I was also excited for the new MinWin-based kernel. I've heard from friends that Win7 is very fast compared to Vista, I hope to try it for myself very soon. I personally don't care about UI changes and from what I've seen Win7 doesn't *really* have that many I'm just excited to have a modern Windows that performs well. Sure it won't compare to OS X for many tasks, but for what I use Windows (work & occasional gaming), I'll be very glad to start using it.



    Not saying I won't be more excited for SLeopard, though the idea of updating my xHack seems a little daunting...



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by cameronj View Post


    What are your qualms about SP3? I've installed it on probably 100 machines now, and almost without failure it improves performance and stability.



    I don't trust Microsoft. SP3 was developed post Vista in a time where MS had been practically begging people to switch. I've had Service Packs that have ended up bogging down my computer and I'm not falling for it again. SP2 was running dandily and I intended to keep it that way.



    -Clive
  • Reply 43 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by OldMacGuy View Post


    Last year, my 2 granddaughters, my son and his wife, my sister and brother-in-law all switched to Macs on their own -- no prodding from me. My oldest daughter has announced her intention to switch in 2009. Market share be damned -- my own blog shows 34% OSX users (no, it isn't a Mac-oriented site). The statistic I'd like to see is market share in non-corporate environments -- market share of personal users.



    In addition market share for actual users, not statistics on totals that include a lot of really old PCs that don't really do much at all or on PCs that people have just lying around their house cause they now use their Mac all the time.
  • Reply 44 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Right. You are not sensitive to these issues and have nothing invested in Windows 7 but you keep posting this stuff that just reeks with smugness and anger. Somehow I have trouble believing you. Since you aren't actually making a point here other than the insults, it's a waste of time for anyone to read, let alone for me to reply to.



    In regards to what we were originally talking about, (do you even care about the original argument anymore or is it just the insults now?), you may think my remarks were overly general or unwarranted but at least they have some support. You have so far given nothing to support your counter-contention that Windows 7 might actually be faster than Snow Leopard, and driven the argument off-track into "funny insult land." Bravo!



    Since I like to restrict myself to only a couple of back and forths when no actual progress is being made in the argument, this will be my last post on the topic.



    PS - I felt compelled to correct the spelling and capitalisation mistakes in your post and had a go at some of your more atrocious grammar, but I haven't changed your word order or meaning.



    Nope. There is nothing I was arguing really about. Just pointing out that Windows 7 and Snow leopard are not released. And as for insults. I don't think anything was insulting. Did you feel insulted? Maybe insulted enough to attempt to insult the grammar correction that is on my iphone? There was never an argument. My point was your post about how leopard is definitely so much faster than windows 7 is based on hopes and dreams. It may as well be faster and more power to it. I hope there is a better one of the two so I can purchase that one myself. I don't care which. So please stop replying to my posts saying I am sensitive to either product because I am not. I don't even understand why you are saying it. And again, thank you for correcting the iPhones grammar mistakes I appreciate that. It doesn't make your point any more valid though. Either product could be faster than the other.
  • Reply 45 of 116
    paxmanpaxman Posts: 4,595member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    I know I'm not the average consumer, but I am probably the MOST excited for GrandCentral.



    I was also excited for the new MinWin-based kernel. I've heard from friends that Win7 is very fast compared to Vista, I hope to try it for myself very soon. I personally don't care about UI changes and from what I've seen Win7 doesn't *really* have that many I'm just excited to have a modern Windows that performs well. Sure it won't compare to OS X for many tasks, but for what I use Windows (work & occasional gaming), I'll be very glad to start using it.



    There may be some UI changes in SL. I certainly hope the finder will be seriously updated, and I am sure the whole 'look' will be somewhat updated. UI's get to look old very quickly. But I think the whole battle (if that's what it is) will be between the marketeers. There is enough flashy details in Leopard to wow an unfamiliar crowd. There are some very nice looking features like coverflow, quick-look and time machine that only need 'selling', not updating. If push comes to shove Apple could always include iLife AND iWorks and do a marketing blitz focussing on these apps. The All New SL feauring... For the average user the iLife and iWork suites are amazing and I believe largely un-discovered.
  • Reply 46 of 116
    hillstoneshillstones Posts: 1,490member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by charlituna View Post


    whether that is true or not depends on how Apple presents the software.



    if they front is as a major overhaul under the hood etc then folks will get it. Same chassis as your current car, but with a more efficient engine.



    if they just kinda bleech it out there, then it won't fly in the general market.



    that all depends on, again,m how it is presented.



    I suspect that SL will be marketed in conjunction with new hardware that will really tap the power and need the new system. for those consumers for whom it doesn't really matter they can keep their current machines on Leopard until that machine breaks and they want a new computer. then they get whatever is the current OS for free with the machine. which is dandy for them.



    In case you haven't been paying attention, Apple has ALWAYS presented Snow Leopard as optimization only for improved performance. Only the rumor mongers here have speculated that it would have features and be a major overhaul. That's why it is called SNOW LEOPARD...it is still Leopard, but should provide better performance on Intel hardware. Of course the morons will complain when it comes out and be annoyed that it still looks like Leopard and doesn't offer any new features because they have their head in the clouds.
  • Reply 47 of 116
    quillzquillz Posts: 209member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macxpress View Post


    A lot of people are going to get the wrong idea about Snow Leopard. Its not going to be a huge release from a feature stand point. Its a release with TONS of under the hood changes. A lot of changes typical users may never see. But this is a very necessary update for OS X to continue efficiently. One that can't just be in a dot dot release (Mac OS 10.5.7 for example). This is something Microsoft should at least step back and take a look at instead of just trying to force new features and technologies over top of old, outdated, clunky code. Apple trying to sell Snow Leopard for $129 isn't going to help anything either....



    You're aware that Vista already delivered the major "under-the-hood" changes you're claiming that Microsoft needs to make right?
  • Reply 48 of 116
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    I was also excited for the new MinWin-based kernel. I've heard from friends that Win7 is very fast compared to Vista, I hope to try it for myself very soon. I personally don't care about UI changes and from what I've seen Win7 doesn't *really* have that many I'm just excited to have a modern Windows that performs well. Sure it won't compare to OS X for many tasks, but for what I use Windows (work & occasional gaming), I'll be very glad to start using it.



    -Clive



    Woohoo. Well then I've been hearing about Win7's speed from more than a few people. I gotta tell you Vista-64 was loaded on my mothers triple core AMD computer with like 3GB of RAM and it was dog slow. I'm going to tell her to wait and make sure her peripherals are ready and then upgrade.



    I'm hoping that Win7 runs good in bootcamp.
  • Reply 49 of 116
    drowdrow Posts: 121member
    Quote:

    Apple's Mac OS was tied up with early 80s legacy issues, including a simple cooperative multitasking model and a complete lack of modern operating system features such as protected memory, secure user accounts, and file permissions.



    ...as compared to Windows, which was tied up with the same issues for a very long time?
  • Reply 50 of 116
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    I don't trust Microsoft. SP3 was developed post Vista in a time where MS had been practically begging people to switch. I've had Service Packs that have ended up bogging down my computer and I'm not falling for it again. SP2 was running dandily and I intended to keep it that way.



    -Clive



    OK - just making sure. Because there's absolutely no sign that SP3 is in any way problematic for anyone except the known issues with AMD processors in some HP machines (I think). Your qualms are solely related to corporate issues, not the software itself.
  • Reply 51 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Logically, if an OS comes out, performs poorly, sells very poorly, under-performs market expectations, and is replaced a year or two later by a 0.1 product that improves performance and largely replaces the UI, then yeah, "collosal failure" is apt.



    If Vista was so great, why is the UI on Windows 7 so different now?

    If Mac OS-X is so bad, why does Windows 7 copy even more of it?





    Doesn't Windows (in all of its iterations) copy features from the Mac OS? I remember looking at Windows 95 and thinking about how much Microsoft aped Mac OS 7x.
  • Reply 52 of 116
    ahmlcoahmlco Posts: 432member
    "Additionally, while Microsoft was building Windows from a relatively clean slate..."



    How can you say that with a straight face? Windows 3X, 95, 98, and Me were all built on top of DOS, were compatable with DOS extended memory managers, and all used (or supported) the orginal DOS-based FAT file system.
  • Reply 53 of 116
    snafusnafu Posts: 37member
    If Snow Leopard has no out-of-the-box really obvious new user features, Apple better makes it a free or nominal-mail-a-DVD-priced for Leopard users. Nobody is going to buy it unless the apps that take advantage of its GPGPU facilities are already selling. Apple better coordinates with the Pro apps and hardware companies to offer something significant from the start (its own Pro and Prosumer apps are the obvious candidates).



    I don't think Grand Central will automagically make all running apps become parallelizable and so much faster. It sounds more like being a glorified multithread API and traffic cop. Any inmediate speed gain probably will come from making things more fine-grained to avoid things locking other things out of entering the same OS block.



    OpenCL would be more interesting than GC, because it can accelerate certain serial tasks in non-easily parallelizable apps, by sheer brute force.



    (But then, Microsoft will have GPGPU facilities in Windows, too, both its own and OpenCL)
  • Reply 54 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    I'm very happy to see Windows 7 shaping up nicely for Microsoft. Firstly, because most of the world are Windows users and they deserve to have a modern OS that works well. Secondly, because as a Mac user this will push Apple to compete with and/or best Windows 7 more thoroughly.



    I use both, as I assume most people here do to. I can't wait for Win7, as I still have XP on my MBP. I have Vista (well, the wife has it on her laptop and desktop) and it is not going on my Mac. My old Dell desktop is running XP due to it's hardware so that's not changing. Anyway, I want WIN7 to be good, just so I can say goodbye to XP and feel good about it at the same time. There are still things I cannot do in OSX, like AutoCAD, so I still need Windows for that, and the specialized 3D CAD software I use at work is also Windows only.

    That said, I'd still have Windows around, as well as Linux, just because it's fun to play with different stuff. Innovation never hurts anyone until it's stifled. If Windows isn't ass-kicking, then the competition goes away eventually, and we're stuck again in a decade with no progress. I think the advent of OS X and Apple's innovation is really pushing Microsoft to get better. And in turn, I don't want to see a copy of OS X with a Windows sticker on it. I want to see MS live up to their potential and really innovate something.
  • Reply 55 of 116
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Snafu View Post


    I don't think Grand Central will automagically make all running apps become parallelizable and so much faster. It sounds more like being a glorified multithread API and traffic cop. Any inmediate speed gain probably will come from making things more fine-grained to avoid things locking other things out of entering the same OS block.



    OpenCL would be more interesting than GC, because it can accelerate certain serial tasks in non-easily parallelizable apps, by sheer brute force.



    (But then, Microsoft will have GPGPU facilities in Windows, too, both its own and OpenCL)



    Grand Central doesn't have to make apps parallelizable. If Apple makes a vast amount of core OS X functionality Grand Central optimized even running basic apps should benefit.



    It's up to the individual to decide of OpenCL is more or less important than Grand Central. There will be some (I'm one) that do not favor one over the other. Grand Central is task oriented while OpenCL is data oriented. They will both be working in concert to deliver the kind of application response we've desired for a while.



    Apple should deliver it for free or as close as they can. Once they can get critical mass on Snow Leopard it means an cleaner and easier path for them and 3rd party developers.
  • Reply 56 of 116
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Logically, if an OS comes out, performs poorly, sells very poorly, under-performs market expectations, and is replaced a year or two later by a 0.1 product that improves performance and largely replaces the UI, then yeah, "collosal failure" is apt.



    If Vista was so great, why is the UI on Windows 7 so different now?

    If Mac OS-X is so bad, why does Windows 7 copy even more of it?



    It is not much different, to be honest. New "dock" is kind of unifying existing Quick Launch and taskbar, and bunch of handful optimizations are trown in the mix, but it definitely is evolution of Vista's GUI.



    Worst thing with Vista was marketing. "Vista Ready" and all that crap. Given machine that can handle it - and it does not have to be monster of machine - it performs well, and is more stable and safe than XP.
  • Reply 57 of 116
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Seems like a lot of people here are saying Windows 7 looks promising to them and that it will push Apple to make Snow Leopard even better.



    Well...where's Win7's award winning, iLife-class software suite, bundled apps like iChat, and TimeMachine backup system?



    Microsoft will be selling what Vista should have been at launch. That means it's competing against Leopard, which had hundreds more useful new features and relatively few bugs considering all its new code; it also ran faster on the same hardware.



    Snow Leopard will then more accurately be in a league of its own.



    I wonder how public would react if MS would include such suite; they are constantly being challenged for including web browser, for God's sake. I never heard of Apple being even remotely challenged for including Safari.



    That being said, Windows Movie Maker, Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Backup are included in Vista. They are basic and I haven't got a clue how they compare to iLife apps (as I never used iLife). Will they be updated in 7? No idea. Not that it matters. Personally, I'm finding concept of bundled applications not desirable; I'd rather build myself equally powerful machine for less money, and spend rest of money choosing applications to my taste.



    On the other side, some flavours of Windows come with Media Centre which is nice, specially coupled with decent remote controller and presented on big flat TV. Chat wise, there is huge selection of chat clients - what makes makes iChat special..?
  • Reply 58 of 116
    I have used both Operating systems.



    I have used every single version of Windows.



    I think the problem with Vista was when it was introduced the hardware needed to be updated. Most old systems priced at $400 could not run it. Driver support was horrible.



    Today all new machines sold with Vista 64 bit have little problems.



    I prefer the Mac OS 10.5.x series over Vista, however with Windows 7 promising to be the best OS MS has put out, Apple has a lot of work to do.



    The dated hardware best be refreshed with specs that compete head to head with PCs.



    Microsoft has learned from Vista. It will correct the problems. They hold over 89% of the market. If Windows 7 promises to be as good as its beta... Apple is in trouble. Period.
  • Reply 59 of 116
    cameronjcameronj Posts: 2,357member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    I wonder how public would react if MS would include such suite; they are constantly being challenged for including web browser, for God's sake. I never heard of Apple being even remotely challenged for including Safari.



    Some things that you can do as a fair competitor you cannot legally do as a monopoly.
  • Reply 60 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Seems like a lot of people here are saying Windows 7 looks promising to them and that it will push Apple to make Snow Leopard even better.



    Well...where's Win7's award winning, iLife-class software suite, bundled apps like iChat, and TimeMachine backup system?



    I don't think they can bundle these programs even if they wanted to (at least not without lawsuits and complaints). The release of Office 2007 originally had built-in support for saving to PDF file, but Adobe filed a complaint for anti-competitive behavior, and it was removed before RTM. I had to download the PDF plug-in separately to save as PDF format, while iWork can save PDF file without additional plug-in.



    Windows Media Player was removed for the EU market, and now Internet Explorer might have to be removed too. Frankly, I don't know of any consumer, non-open source OS without a built-in media player and a browser not by third-party vendors.



    Microsoft has gone as far as removing the following programs from Windows 7. Their reason for this is more flexibility in updating the features, but I am guessing blindly it might have more to do with DOJ and the EU. The programs below will be replaced by their Windows Live counterparts, but they've to be downloaded and installed separately from the OS.



    Removed from Windows 7: Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Movie Maker, Windows Calendar and Windows Mail
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