Windows 7 vs. Mac OS X Snow Leopard: competitive origins

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  • Reply 61 of 116
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    The general consensus is that Snow Leopard, like Leopard before it, will be more stable than Windows, faster than Windows, and more secure than Windows although as you say, we don't know for sure at this stage.



    And whose general consensus might that be..?
  • Reply 62 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hmurchison View Post


    I respectfully disagree and here is why.



    Snow Leopard isn't sexy for a consumer because they need a new UI or app to appreciate the differences. I don't expect some people to get excited about Snow Leopard when they couldn't even see the value of Leopard.



    Snow Leopard represents a new path. While we tend to gloss over GrandCentral it is such an important technology many haven't fully absorbed the impact it will make along with kernel improvements.



    Snow Leopard ushers in a new era in which compute resources are managed effectively and dynamically. GrandCentral is the cop that will smartly leverage the GPU, CPU, and another other compute resource without the developer hand holding the process.



    Windows 7 is nice but has Microsoft expanded on the fundamentals of task and data management at such a low level in the OS? Apple has.



    SL is the starters pistol going off for the next generation of Apple OS. Everything changes from now on.



    I agree that GrandCentral will be a much bigger thing than we may think at first glance, if it works. I say that because I think we can see what Apple is trying to do, writing apps that use multi cores and GPUCPU resources easier to write, and the proof will be in the pudding. I hope it works and believe that Apple will get it right, and I know that they have been working on this for some time now, so they have had time to apply lessons learned. But the under the hood stuff is great to see because this is a release for the developers, and the the users of those apps, and it is the correct time to have a release like this. With the iPhone apps store kicking that shows that lots of people are learning how to write software for the Mac and now Apple will be dangling carrots in front of them, enticing them to write apps for the Mac. So to say that SL does not have that many features for the end user, is not looking at the whole Mac app environment. We will all benefit from the SL features that programmers use in their apps.



    Maybe even an app store for the Mac?!?!



    Ty
  • Reply 63 of 116
    I say windows 7 will win his game. I dont think windows ever really lost. Windows holds 88% of the PC Marketshare. thats a LOT. I know that lots of that is windows XP, but vista is doing.. okay. See, vista had so much potential but couldnt deliver, despite this, windows vista has sold well. i know a lot of people with vista, and only about.. 6 with macs. I myself have windows XP and am satisfied with it.. but hopefully windows 7 will be out soon. Macs OS snow leopard is just a performance upgrade (mainly..) and windows 7 is improving performance and features. I think windows 7 will strive, especially with all the good reviews the beta is getting.
  • Reply 64 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    The sad thing about the Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard grudge match to come, is that while Snow Leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way, all the appearances will be otherwise. Intelligent users that do their research already know to choose a Mac over a Windows PC, but the more "average" users only know that "Vista sucks."



    The new Vista (Windows 7) doesn't suck any more (at least to the casual observer).



    This is a problem and one that could very well see the OS-X adoption rate drop off significantly and even return to a pre-Vista level. The average user is a dumb little bunny and won't see any difference between Snow Leopard and Windows 7's aping of it.



    If you haven't downloaded the beta version of Windows 7 then you really can't speak about it. We all know the earth can spin off its axis before anyone gets an early look at snow leopard.



    IMHO Vista beats Leopard and I find it just as fast and more secure. I have had zero issues with Vista x64, wish I could say that about Leopard. Instead of Leopard they should have named the OSX/Archive and Install.



    I wonder who you consider the average user. Maybe I consider you the average user based on my knowledge compared to yours.
  • Reply 65 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    I wonder how public would react if MS would include such suite; they are constantly being challenged for including web browser, for God's sake. I never heard of Apple being even remotely challenged for including Safari.



    That's because Apple doesn't use exclusive, anti-competitive OEM licensing deals to tie their operating system to every new PC sold by third party hardware makers.



    Quote:

    That being said, Windows Movie Maker, Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Backup are included in Vista. They are basic and I haven't got a clue how they compare to iLife apps (as I never used iLife). Will they be updated in 7? No idea. Not that it matters. Personally, I'm finding concept of bundled applications not desirable; I'd rather build myself equally powerful machine for less money, and spend rest of money choosing applications to my taste.



    Why does it not matter? Because those apps are mediocre substitutes for what iLife (and in OSX, TimeMachine) delivers?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    On the other side, some flavours of Windows come with Media Centre which is nice, specially coupled with decent remote controller and presented on big flat TV. Chat wise, there is huge selection of chat clients - what makes makes iChat special..?



    Every Mac comes with Front Row.



    iChat is special because it's a free, slick, intuitive, bundled chat client and since all Mac laptops have been shipping with built-in iSight cameras standard for years now, video chatting is a cinch.
  • Reply 66 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    The sad thing about the Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard grudge match to come, is that while Snow Leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way, all the appearances will be otherwise. Intelligent users that do their research already know to choose a Mac over a Windows PC, but the more "average" users only know that "Vista sucks."



    Have to agree. If it's true Apple plans to go even more gray and flat with the GUI in OS X, it will get even worse. People will see a colorful Windows 7 vs a gray OS X. I would like to see an OS X GUI change as much as anyone else, but I really think gray is the wrong path to take unless you're marketing the OS as a server/workstation and not for consumers. I personally think they had it almost right in the beginning with white and blue. It's an extremely attractive color combination, yet simplistic enough. Of course, the best they could do for us who are picky about our GUIs is make it more customizable/themeable from the beginning.
  • Reply 67 of 116
    halvrihalvri Posts: 146member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post


    I wonder how public would react if MS would include such suite; they are constantly being challenged for including web browser, for God's sake. I never heard of Apple being even remotely challenged for including Safari.



    That being said, Windows Movie Maker, Windows Photo Gallery, Windows Backup are included in Vista. They are basic and I haven't got a clue how they compare to iLife apps (as I never used iLife). Will they be updated in 7? No idea. Not that it matters. Personally, I'm finding concept of bundled applications not desirable; I'd rather build myself equally powerful machine for less money, and spend rest of money choosing applications to my taste.



    On the other side, some flavours of Windows come with Media Centre which is nice, specially coupled with decent remote controller and presented on big flat TV. Chat wise, there is huge selection of chat clients - what makes makes iChat special..?



    Multi-client threads, iChat theatre (where data streams can be shared between Mac users in real time), & easy screen sharing are some of the biggest features.
  • Reply 68 of 116
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    That's because Apple doesn't use exclusive, anti-competitive OEM licensing deals to tie their operating system to every new PC sold by third party hardware makers.



    Can't make everyone happy. At least MS is not trying to limit who can use their OS; you don't have to purchase MS hardware bundled. Apple and MS have different approach, both with up and downsides... however only one of them is considered monopoly, thus different rules apply.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Why does it not matter? Because those apps are mediocre substitutes for what iLife (and in OSX, TimeMachine) delivers?



    Can't say, never used iLife. Looking forward to... but from what I could read, Windows Backup Centre (in Vista) has more options than TimeMachine, though it is not so friendly. Don't know if same works for Windows Movie Maker and Photo Gallery. Hopefully someone who uses both OSX and Vista can shed some light on that topic.



    Anyway, my point was - I would not like scenario where me, and all my mates, have exactly same video editing software (for example)... so in general, I'm happier to save some money on computer in order to spend it on software of my choice, not software that is forced on me in the bundle... Again, input from someone using both iMovies and comparable Windows home video editing software - say Pinnacle Studio - is welcome.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    Every Mac comes with Front Row.



    That was discussed in other tread here on AppleInsider; Media Player comes with better format and plugin support, according to people using both. Some went that far in saying that only thing they use Windows computer for is as HTPC, and only because of Media Centre advantage over Front Row. Not being included in every version of Vista is definitely downside.





    Quote:
    Originally Posted by wobegon View Post


    iChat is special because it's a free, slick, intuitive, bundled chat client and since all Mac laptops have been shipping with built-in iSight cameras standard for years now, video chatting is a cinch.



    That still doesn't sound any different from Windows Messenger, ICQ, Yahoo Messenger, Skype... which are all free. Same as Miranda IM which supports multiple formats (ICQ, Yahoo, IRC, MSN...). I'm pretty sure there are more out there, but I'm not heavy user of any of them save Skype, and I never used iChat. Again, input from both platforms user would be nice.
  • Reply 69 of 116
    imatimat Posts: 159member
    1. If Windows Vista has been a success I wonder where this "wave" of switching to Mac comes from. I read a lot of posts here saying Vista was very good and reliable, but then I only hear from people sick of Windows and who are impressed by MacOSX and in general the Mac platform. And here I am not talking about the ones who buy it because "it looks nice on my desk" but rather from knowledgeable, long time Windows users who feel underwhelmed (or even tricked by) Microsoft.



    2. SL might be an incremental upgrade, so not much besides the under the hood improvements. But Apple paved the way for SL by releasing notebooks that will most likely profit a lot from the new improvements. If someone buys a new Mac they will have SL built in. For current Leopard, or even Tiger, owners there will be the choice of upgrading. If they don't then their computers might, sometimes in the future, not be able to run some apps.

    The rate at which people upgraded to Leopard seems to me encouraging.



    3. The Mac user base has broadened a lot and so has the demographic, social, economic composition of this base. This means that there will be a lot of people not willing to upgrade to anything new, as it currently is with Windows XP, and just upgrade when they buy a new computer (wich might or might not be a Mac). This is, in my opinion, one of the challenges Apple will face in the future. One they are not necessarily "used to" (but then again, which manufacturer wouldn't like such dilemmas).





    4. SL is the foundation of the next OS, and as such I will most defenitely upgrade to it. Particularly because all future apps (Apple or non Apple) will take advantages of the many, interesting changes SL brings with it.





    5. That said I think the best way to get people to upgrade would be an App Store for the Mac. I imagine a store in which I can buy apps, which can be backed up on DVD, and which I can purchase right away.

    This would make the process of upgrading to SL much easier for a lot of people, therefore broadening the installer base
  • Reply 70 of 116
    I tried Windows Seven yesterday (installed it on my Linux box as a Xen VM). For a beta release it was running amazingly stable. I tried to install Adobe CS4 but then it hang lol. I think Mac OS could learn something from Windows 7's virtualization support. Well, I heard that should change with Snow Leopard.
  • Reply 71 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    Intelligent users that do their research already know to choose a Mac over a Windows PC, but the more "average" users only know that "Vista sucks."



    Aren't you the one complaining about someone insulting you, yet you don't seem to mind throwing them out. There are many intelligent reasons to choose a Windows PC over a Mac. Here are a few:



    1) You want an expandable computer that can grow with your needs and can't afford the $2K+ that a Mac Pro would cost to acquire.

    2) You want to play computer games that aren't made by Blizzard and are less than 2 years old.

    3) You want to set up a HTPC that includes Blu-Ray.

    4) You don't like the limited software choices that a Mac offers (which is related to 2).

    5) You don't like paying for things you don't need (I've barely used the iLife apps, never used the Firewire port, and barely ever used the built-in iSight camera) and aren't happy with the things you can't get (such as the previously mentioned Blu-Ray).



    I'm sure there are other "intelligent" reasons to pick a Windows PC, but there's a few.



    I'm still using Tiger on my iMac and though I would like to upgrade, at this point I'm holding out for Snow Leopard. But right now, I'm tempted to get Leopard just for the ability to Bootcamp into the Windows 7 beta. Kind of sad that my main interest in upgrading is to try out the competitor's product...
  • Reply 72 of 116
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Virgil-TB2 View Post


    The sad thing about the Windows 7 vs. Snow Leopard grudge match to come, is that while Snow Leopard will be a faster, more secure, and more advanced operating system in every way, all the appearances will be otherwise. Intelligent users that do their research already know to choose a Mac over a Windows PC, but the more "average" users only know that "Vista sucks."



    The new Vista (Windows 7) doesn't suck any more (at least to the casual observer).



    This is a problem and one that could very well see the OS-X adoption rate drop off significantly and even return to a pre-Vista level. The average user is a dumb little bunny and won't see any difference between Snow Leopard and Windows 7's aping of it.



    I agree. Windows 7 doesn't have to be good to how over Mac users, that's not going to happen...unless Apple does something really dumb. However, if its better than previous versions of windows, it might incite some potential switchers to stay windows and maybe bring a few back.
  • Reply 73 of 116
    Really, I like OS X and I'm very happy with my environment. I would never switch back to Windows.



    But, what are the criterias for users to make their decisions?



    - The average user (more than 90%) has not enough knowledge about the different

    technologies (GC or OpenCL), thus it's not important for his decision



    - The GUI, the colors, important (evident) but not strong enough to win marketshares.



    - Usability important, but not strong enough to win marketshares.



    - The price, very very important. I think, most users from the Second and Third World market

    (China, India, Brazil, etc, etc. ) won't go for a mac, because it's to expensive and these are a

    lot of potential users. I'm living in Brazil, here the macs are so expensive (almost 200% of the

    american price).



    - Most of the users ( Second, Third world ) has no chance to try out the mac product.

    The distributorship is to small. Only in bigger cities. For most people to far away.



    The Apple Computer is really a luxury product. Most of the Apple users live in the First World and not in the Second and Third world. So I think, that Apple has to change their price policy to reach also those markets.



    My opinion is, that the competion is not the technology, the competion is the accessibility at a reasonable price. I'm afraid that Microsoft will not loose significantly marketshares.
  • Reply 74 of 116
    imatimat Posts: 159member
    The brazilian user before me just hit a main point.





    Many of US customers on the forum are complaining, among other things, that Macs are more expensive.



    I live in Switzerland and, contrary to common belief, we are by no means a country of exclusively rich persons...





    So here are the prices:

    - MacBook Alluminum 13" (basic standard model):

    USA: 1299.00 USD

    CH: 1483.00 USD (+13%)



    - MacMini (the "perfect switcher computer") (basic):

    USA: 599.00 USD

    CH: 653.00 USD (+10%)



    - MacBook Pro 15" (basic standard model):

    USA: 1999.00 USD

    CH: 2224.00 USD (+11%)





    As you can see the problem of the adoption rate outside the US for MacOSX is really about price. Imagine if the computers costed on the average 10% more: would you still buy the same Apple computer you did?



    And no, prices of competitors are not on the average 10% higher. So the gap between offerings here is much more than in the US.

    As much as I love Apple's computers and the OSX (which, by the way costs 164 USD for a single licence here) I have to say I am angry at their pricing structure.

    They cannot wonder why people flock to windows when their computers are as expensive as this. And I believe the same applies all over the world, with even bigger differences than the ones I mentioned.



    Sorry for the long post, but I wanted to give a different perspective about the whole Win7 vs MacOSX issue. Price is important, not the only criteria, but add 10% price to every Mac sold in the US and you'll see what happens to the market share...



    -------

    Rate:

    1 CHF = 0.83 USD

    and it is the lowest rate in some time. Rates are quite stable though, not changing fast enough to prevent price adaptations!
  • Reply 75 of 116
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iMat View Post


    The brazilian user before me just hit a main point.

    Many of US customers on the forum are complaining, among other things, that Macs are more expensive.

    I live in Switzerland and, contrary to common belief, we are by no means a country of exclusively rich persons...

    So here are the prices:

    - MacBook Alluminum 13" (basic standard model):

    USA: 1299.00 USD ($1389.93)

    CH: 1483.00 USD (+13%)



    - MacMini (the "perfect switcher computer") (basic):

    USA: 599.00 USD ($640.93)

    CH: 653.00 USD (+10%)



    - MacBook Pro 15" (basic standard model):

    USA: 1999.00 USD ($2138.93)

    CH: 2224.00 USD (+11%)



    As you can see the problem of the adoption rate outside the US for MacOSX is really about price.

    [...]



    It doesn't look like you adjusted for the 7.6% included VAT. US prices are pre sales tax. I think the average US sales tax is about 7%, though it can be higher with local governments adding additional sales tax.



    I've added a US tax of 7% to the prices above, in red. While the Swiss prices are still higher, they are not that much higher, and it's foolish to think that a small country that would require more cost to Apple to produce and ship should cost the same or less than a very large country that Apple primarily does their business in. You have 4 official languages, Apple's Swiss site can be viewed in either French or German, you can buy a Mac with Italian (Swiss), French (Swiss), English (Swiss) or English (US), their is a different power supply and, probably most importantly, there are different regulations that have to be me for different countries. The less product you sell in a country, the more it will cost per product to cover the expenses.



    PS: Is the keyboard layout for Switzerland for the various languages different than for its neighboring countries of that language?
  • Reply 76 of 116
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iMat View Post


    The brazilian user before me just hit a main point.





    Many of US customers on the forum are complaining, among other things, that Macs are more expensive.




    I absolutely agree. Imagine here in Brazil almost 100% more expensive (It's not only a problem of the taxes).

    Brazil is not poor, but the purchasing power of the brazilian people is much lower than in Switzerland or america.

    With this price policy Apple won't reach significant marketshares in Brazil.



    An Example:



    MacBook Pro Core 2 Duo T9300 2.5GHz 2GB 250GB 10'000 Reais = 4300 US$ (old model)

    I think in America almost the half price.
  • Reply 77 of 116
    lilgto64lilgto64 Posts: 1,147member
    My step daughter is still using an iBook G4 that I bought her a few years back - I have upgraded the hard drive and the RAM and added an AIrport card (yes I bought it a few weeks before Airport was standard on them). I asked her recently if when it was time for a new notebook if she would consider a Windows machines and before I could even finish the question here answer was No Way!



    As a long time user of both Mac and PC - I still prefer the Mac by leaps and bounds - and while I find XP to be the best Windows so far - I have played with Windows 7 a bit and while it is not nearly as annoying as Vista I will not be switching any of my other 5 Macs any time soon.
  • Reply 78 of 116
    imatimat Posts: 159member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    It doesn't look like you adjusted for the 7.6% included VAT. US prices are pre sales tax. I think the average US sales tax is about 7%, though it can be higher with local governments adding additional sales tax.



    I've added a US tax of 7% to the prices above, in red. While the Swiss prices are still higher, they are not that much higher, and it's foolish to think that a small country that would require more cost to Apple to produce and ship should cost the same or less than a very large country that Apple primarily does their business in. You have 4 official languages, Apple's Swiss site can be viewed in either French or German, you can buy a Mac with Italian (Swiss), French (Swiss), English (Swiss) or English (US), their is a different power supply and, probably most importantly, there are different regulations that have to be me for different countries. The less product you sell in a country, the more it will cost per product to cover the expenses.



    PS: Is the keyboard layout for Switzerland for the various languages different than for its neighboring countries of that language?



    Thanks for your correction. Didin't know there was such a difference... In Switzerland the mentioned prices include VAT (which is 7.6%) so I guess we come to a much closer price indeed. Keyboards are the same, to answer your question. In fact they are the same all over Switzerland, just the "default" accent on vowels varies (but the layout is the same). So german speaking gets the ä by default (shift + the same key writes the letter Ã*) whereas french and italian speaking get the opposite.



    I now have a question for you: is the sales tax in the US always the same or does it vary from State to State? I have heard that iTunes Store users get charged differently for their purchases depending on the State in which they reside.



    My argument regarding pricing is therefore no as valid as before, as long as the currency exchange rate stays as low as it is (which means for me... cheaper holidays in the US this summer!!!).



    Always interesting and always enriching. AppleInsider's forums are, in my opinion, the best when it comes to debating.





    ----------



    Software-wise there is no difference as Apple's software has all languages built in, so no major costs compared to neighbouring contries ;-)
  • Reply 79 of 116
    mj webmj web Posts: 918member
    I switched in '06. The reason was Apple's switch to Intel's C2D and Boot Camp. Then in '07 I deleted my BC/Parallels partition because I stopped using Windows XP.



    I haven't played around with Windows 7 yet but I must say MS has piqued my interest with it. So has their new advertising campaign for MS enterprise which is fresh and thought provoking.



    My point is, at this moment in time, Microsoft is beating Apple at the buzz game for the first time in this decade! Apple is no doubt reeling from the "Steve" situation but the company has recently made some major product (Mobile Me) and PR (alienating App store devs and MB FW users) blunders.



    Apple Inc. is going through a major corporate expansion, hence their name change, and the company has definitely encountered missteps due to growing pains. I'm not suggesting Windows 7 will best Snow Leopard but I do think Apple ought to watch its step.
  • Reply 80 of 116
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,268member
    The only thing that worries me about PC is the agressive pricing.



    Even with a polished over Vista OS X is superior in many ways. Apple loves

    to make $$$$ on hardware though and I believe that many people would love

    to jump to Apple but the hardware costs start out competitive at launch and then

    remain static and thus become poor values late into the product cycle.



    OS X has enough goodies to keep most of us happy. Snow Leopard should hopefully

    bring polish to the UI and OS in general and "deep the the bowels" optimizations that

    breathe new life into old Macs (Intel based Macs that is).



    If Apple can revamp the mini and add the faster graphics needed and deliver compelling Quad iMacs as well as get a stable Snow Leopard out and at a price that encourages fast adoption they will ride this recession out and come out strong.
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