This is good news for everyone. The current situation where every model of phone requires a different charger is crazy. As someone already mentioned some Motorola phones will refuse to charge unless plugged into a Motorola brand charger. Another one with the same specs doesn't work. RIM goes to even more ridiculous lengths. In order to charge a BlackBerry from your computer USB port you have to install BlackBerry drivers on the computer. Is there another product on the planet that need a special driver just to charge?
No they don't. I do not install any BB software on my laptop and it still charges fine from the USB port. The drivers are for sync only and really only used by people not connecting to a BES server or if you want to add software manually.
This is good news for everyone. The current situation where every model of phone requires a different charger is crazy. As someone already mentioned some Motorola phones will refuse to charge unless plugged into a Motorola brand charger. Another one with the same specs doesn't work. RIM goes to even more ridiculous lengths. In order to charge a BlackBerry from your computer USB port you have to install BlackBerry drivers on the computer. Is there another product on the planet that need a special driver just to charge?
I think iPhone might require drivers. I think most people might never suspect that because maybe iTunes installer installs a driver. My iPhone 3G will not charge from my Windows 2000 computer, and I can't install a current enough copy of iTunes to make it work. I've tried a powered hub, the USB 2 card and the front USB 1.1 jack.
While we are standardizing on our charging interfaces, why not standardize on how we plug in to our power grid at the same time?
3-prong plugs are bulky and ugly and a pain in the butt to wire. If I were king, I'd start there. Then I'd let Apple design a really cool MagSafe style of universal connector for electronics.
The goals would be:
Easy insertion without even looking at the device
As close to zero friction as possible
As small as possible to perform all the functions needed yet fit on small devices
Durable & Efficient
Like USB, there may need to be a few iterations of the standard to fit special case or fulfill unusual requirements.
I've played with the MagSafe adapter and it's so cool and easy and functional that I can't believe someone isn't looking into this for other applications like the iPod. Plugging the 30-pin into an iPod touch is a little tricky. No margin for error. And it's even worse if you have a protective case for your touch.
I don't think Apple is interested in licensing MagSafe...SJ, when introducing MagSafe on the MacBook Pro said something to the effect of "and we patented the heck out of this."
Your profile says WA, but that can't be Washington, United States, Earth because "Durable & Efficient" and Apple don't really go together. Just about everyone I know has had an Apple power supply fail.
I haven't had one fail, but I also gave up on using the wire-manglement tabs on the power adapters.
I think I was close to having the cable give out at the magsafe end of my MacBook Pro before I sold it.
Good thing you're not King, I'd hate to have to repurchase all my stuff because you don't like the standard Edison connector. If you do become King, I hope it's of the world so at least the standard power connection is world-wide. I'd like to know what you propose. I don't think I want anything smaller than we have when I have to grab it to plug/unplug 100-250 volts. Consider also, the gripping strength of the receptacle is important for current carrying capacity and sure connections. Please to not have my hospital equipment using magsafe when I'm electrocuted by your tiny sleek 200 volt attachment plug.
That said, Apple has no way out of the 30-pin dock connector...way to many accessories for the iPod/iPhone. The aim of a universal connector for telephones is great. I doubt Apple will want to add a mini-usb to the side/top of the iPhone, or any iPod. At least the dock cable is pretty common. Certainly agree with the ridiculousness of Motorola, my wife's phone uses mini-usb, but can't be bothered to charge off the mini-usb charger/power cord for my Nav or mini-usb cable to the computer.
If it were up to me, new phone/mobile electronic designs should use mini-usb where feasible. Especially on all the budget phones. And no more networks charging $30-50 for a computer connection cable...just use the USB. The next step, after a year the budget phones (the free ones, <$100) can stop including power adapters...if you need one, here buy this $15...$15 rebate if purchased with a phone.
England is part of the European union, what language do you speak? is it English?
there is irony somewhere in there, but i doubt if you see it
Sorry I didn't think I needed to put in the sarcasm notice. But yeah, irony or or maybe just plain old stupidity, let's create a mandatory standard to discourage innovation much like the French discourage any new words being introduced into their language. We already have words, we don't need any new ones. We already have a charger we don't need a new one - regardless of how much better a new state of the art charger may be.
3-prong plugs are bulky and ugly and a pain in the butt to wire. If I were king, I'd start there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Making them less bulky isn't going to make it any easier for the electrician to wire. It's not even that hard, it's a one-time five minute install and it's usually good for several decades. The prongs are spaced that far apart for good reason.
Are we talking about the plugs or the receptacles? Neither are particularly hard to wire, especially when you graduate to the quality parts. Screw-down wire clamps for me, none of this wrapping wires around screws or flimsy spring loaded push-in connections please. Might cost a few dollars instead of $0.79, but I know it will last.
While we are standardizing on our charging interfaces, why not standardize on how we plug in to our power grid at the same time?
3-prong plugs are bulky and ugly and a pain in the butt to wire. If I were king, I'd start there. Then I'd let Apple design a really cool MagSafe style of universal connector for electronics.
The goals would be:
Easy insertion without even looking at the device
As close to zero friction as possible
As small as possible to perform all the functions needed yet fit on small devices
Durable & Efficient
Like USB, there may need to be a few iterations of the standard to fit special case or fulfill unusual requirements.
I've played with the MagSafe adapter and it's so cool and easy and functional that I can't believe someone isn't looking into this for other applications like the iPod. Plugging the 30-pin into an iPod touch is a little tricky. No margin for error. And it's even worse if you have a protective case for your touch.
I am sorry but this post really has to be one of the most ill-thought out and idiotic posts I have ever read.
You want magsafe to replace household power sockets?
You do know that a magsafe connector is connecting to a power converter that reduces the voltage down a notch or two so that it does not fry your MacBook don't you?
Do you know that the power from a household socket will kill you and your children in a flash if anyone happened to get close enough? Hence why the standard sockets are made with safety in mind (hey, a lot safer in the UK but still safe enough in the US). You really want wall sockets that are essentially just an open connecter surrounded by a magnet?
I am sorry but this post really has to be one of the most ill-thought out and idiotic posts I have ever read.
You want magsafe to replace household power sockets?
You do know that a magsafe connector is connecting to a power converter that reduces the voltage down a notch or two so that it does not fry your MacBook don't you?
Do you know that the power from a household socket will kill you and your children in a flash if anyone happened to get close enough? Hence why the standard sockets are made with safety in mind (hey, a lot safer in the UK but still safe enough in the US). You really want wall sockets that are essentially just an open connecter surrounded by a magnet?
Go back to school.
The power from a household socket will kill me and my children, in a flash, if we get close enough? Oh crap... now I'm terrified to even operate my toaster!
Listen up, Sparky. My post was looking into the uncharted future. I saw Star Trek and didn't see USB ports and 2008 household power sockets.
From reading these posts, I now fully understand why Apple initially preferred to hire people under 30. Past that and brain tissue starts to set like concrete.
We've heard all the "it can't be done" dogma before when Apple moved from SCSI to FireWire and from Mini DIN-8 Serial Ports to USB. There were too many products out there using the old to switch to the new.
Well, here we are. I don't see too many old ports on my Mac. And the iPod is still popular even though it has been dropping legacy ports faster than congress can pass trillion dollar spending bills.
Always think outside the box. 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now, much will change. Imagine the future.
(And don't get near a power socket, lest you and your family perish in a flash)
I think this approach has some merit, and some flaws. While Apple's 30-pin dock connector has been designed to support charging, sync, remote control, AV out, etc., it should be possible for Apple to design a similar solution around micro-USB. I know it is possible, because there are multiple devices out there that use micro-USB for multiple things. And of course it is possible, without any performance degradation, simply because at the USB end of Apple's cable, those 30-pins of the dock are converted into the same pins as what every other micro-USB supports.
For instance, cameras use micro-USB for transferring images, several phones use micro-USB for sync and charging, etc. Instead of a dedicated pin for each task, the micro-USB model would just have to be designed differently at the software level.
Even if such a thing should be standardized, it should not be the EU mandating this - much better if there is an IEEE working group that comes up with standards to implement all the tasks using micro-USB. That way, if Bose makes a nifty player, and they support micro-USB, then all devices that support micro-USB would be usable. Same goes for car interfaces, etc. Standardizing on micro-USB for just charging makes zero sense. If you are going to standardize, the standard should incorporate ALL actions - charging, sync, remote control, AV out, etc. If such a standard came out, I am sure Apple would be willing to use micro-USB - because then, Apple would be left out.
Before using micro-USB, there needs to be a much better understanding of how USB works. USB has an initial negotiation phase, where the device requests what kind of support it needs. When connected to a PC, the PC will recognize the device, and realize that the support requested can only be provided with the drivers loaded. Till the drivers are loaded, the PC will not send ANY power to the port. This is the reason why Black Berry and iPhone devices wont charge unless BES or iTunes is installed. There is an easy remedy to this, which is ALREADY supported in the USB specifications. USB devices can request for multiple profiles - for instance, a camera connected to the USB port can present itself as a Camera, as well as a simple Drive.
If BlackBerry and iPhone request a simple "just give me 5V 100 mA power" profile, that would be supported by default in all operating systems, and provided without loading any driver.
The reason the wall chargers work, is because they IGNORE all the negotiation started by the device and just directly provide the power. This is usually fine because most USB devices have the same power profile. Devices that need more power usually connect to more than one USB port to get the power. However, there would be some devices that dont need the power - and could even be damaged if they get the power when they are not expecting to get power. You dont want the electronics in a camera to get fried because it gets power down a port that is meant only for data transfer. Of course, in a proper design, the port would be shielded, so that even if there was power coming in, it would be blocked. But maybe some cheap devices could be poorly designed, and not be able to handle the power coming down. The USB wall chargers dump the decision to the human user - you are supposed to know if the device needs and accepts power, or not.
The real problem for Apple would be how to transition 10 years of devices using the 30-pin-dock, into a micro-USB dock. Well, Apple being Apple, would come up with an elegant solution, and something that also makes them more money! Possibly an extremely small adaptor that adds minimally to the device dimensions, and converts the micro-USB dock on the new iPhones to the 30-pin format used in your existing accessories. If they are generous, they might give away one such adaptor with each device, or else charge $19.99 for it!
I think iPhone might require drivers. I think most people might never suspect that because maybe iTunes installer installs a driver. My iPhone 3G will not charge from my Windows 2000 computer, and I can't install a current enough copy of iTunes to make it work. I've tried a powered hub, the USB 2 card and the front USB 1.1 jack.
I charge my iPhone directly from the wall socket most of the time. No driver in there. I would have thought if the USB port is powered no driver is required.
I charge my iPhone directly from the wall socket most of the time. No driver in there. I would have thought if the USB port is powered no driver is required.
Wall warts can just deliver juice indiscriminantly, computer USB ports don't work that way.
I cannot imagine an elegant solution for abandoning millions of iPods/iPhones and support devices. The only reason to abandon it would be for the benefit of the other mobile device makers, not for Apple's benefit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by macarena
A lot of people are missing the basic point here.
The real problem for Apple would be how to transition 10 years of devices using the 30-pin-dock, into a micro-USB dock. Well, Apple being Apple, would come up with an elegant solution, and something that also makes them more money! Possibly an extremely small adaptor that adds minimally to the device dimensions, and converts the micro-USB dock on the new iPhones to the 30-pin format used in your existing accessories. If they are generous, they might give away one such adaptor with each device, or else charge $19.99 for it!
Wall warts can just deliver juice indiscriminantly, computer USB ports don't work that way.
But they can do.
I have my BB Bold plugged into my MBP right now and it is getting power. No drivers or any set-up software required.
I have a USB socket in my TV and sometimes plug my iPod in it if it just needs a charge and I don't want it hanging around my MBP.
I really think that USB will deliver power indiscriminately to anything connected to it that can be powered via the USB cable.
Think about a HDD that a Mac cannot read, they still get power, the light still flickers on and the disk starts to spin even though nothing shows up in the Mac.
I will actually go one further and say you are wrong, it does work like that.
I just remembered yesterday I plugged my 3G stick into my MBP, it lit up and appeared to be working but for some reason I could not get a connection. Then I remembered that since formatting my MBP last week and reloading OSX I had forgotten to load up the drivers for it.
Point is that it still got all the power it needed despite not being a device that my MBP even knew was there.
The power from a household socket will kill me and my children, in a flash, if we get close enough? Oh crap... now I'm terrified to even operate my toaster!
See that is the whole point, you should not be terrified to get near your toaster because many years ago somebody decided that we should hide all the big nasty electricity inside an insulated box and keep the wires apart. Access is via tiny little holes that fingers cannot get too. I know you think it is crap but to be honest it is perfect design, function before beauty.
If on the other hand you had nothing but a little magnet keeping your fingers away from a 240 volt power source then yes, I would be freakin scared of your toaster if I was you.
Wall warts can just deliver juice indiscriminantly, computer USB ports don't work that way.
Mmm...I'm pretty sure USB lights, fans and lava lamps have no drivers and run off PC ports. Of course, if they draw more than 100mA they can cause your PC issues.
Here's the spec:
"If a portable device is attached to a USB host or hub, then the USB 2.0 spec requires that:
? after connecting, a portable device must draw less than:
o 2.5mA average if the bus is suspended
o 100mA max if bus is not suspended and not configured
o 500mA max if bus is not suspended and configured for 500mA
If a portable device is attached to a dedicated charger, it is allowed to draw a current of IDEV_DCHGR. If a portable device is attached to a host or hub charger, it is allowed to draw a current of IDEV_HCHGR_LFS or IDEV_HCHGR_HS, regardless of suspend.
If a portable device has a dead or weak battery, then the Dead Battery Provision issued by the USB-IF allows that device to draw up to 100mA until the device is able to connect. The conditions associated with the Dead Battery Provision are contained in this specification. "
Even without a driver and no way to negotiate, you're allowed to draw 100mA if the host isn't suspended. If you don't care about a USB certification you should be able to feign dead battery mode with connection repeatedly.
Attached = wire connected
Connected = able to negotiate power via pulling the D+/D- data lines high through a 1.5k ohm resistor to enter low, full or hi speed signaling.
The OS may not like you much without a driver but I think devices can still negotiate 100mA or even 500mA power doing nothing more than connecting via the USB2 spec on the D+/D- lines.
since when are ipod cables so expensive? First, you get one "free" with every ipod / iphone you buy (two ipods and two iphones later, i personally can find a number of perfectly functioning and compatible cables laying around my house). Secondly, you can choose from any number of suppliers who offer cables if you don't want to buy an official apple-branded cable. I was looking for a car charger for my first iPhone and on eBay I found a set of three cables- one wall charger, one car charger, and one USB ipod cable. I literally paid $3 plus shipping and they worked great. The "expensive" argument simply doesn't hold ANY water. Nobody ever feels locked into a phone because of the cables required.
Unfortunately not true. Once you've paid $300 for a Bose iPod speaker set, $250 for a car stereo that supports iPods, and a home theater receiver that supports the iPod, come back and tell me that you don't feel trapped into the iPod/iPhone interface. Note that I did not limit my comment to cables.
Quote:
Also, to remark on the general discussion - as mentioned already, the 30-pin technology does much more than simply charge the device. It allows for A/V transfers, remote control information if in a dock, etc. Apple is not against standards - remember they invented firewire then gave it away for free to anyone who wanted to license it?? Forgot about that. A micro-usb port on the Iphone just wouldn't make sense at this point, so, big surprise - Apple isn't joining this EU effort.
Apple never gave firewire away free. Their licensing charges, which were applied to each firewire port, were considered by the industry to be exorbitant. Apple's licensing charges for the dock connector are also exorbitant. As are the charges for the little "Made for iPod" and "Works with iPhone" logos. Companies pay these fees because at this point they don't have much choice. The iPod is dominant. But you and I pay a significant premium for every iPod compatible device because of it.
This premium flows to Apple's bottom line, and adds to their $25 billion cash hoard. Sorry, but I need my money more than Apple needs it.
So now other handheld device manufacturers are tired of their confusion of connectors and are ready to establish one standard. Which I agree is a good idea. Apple has set up a ecosystem based on its own connector that works, why should Apple change what works, simply because the other manufacturers were not forward thinking enough to have done the same years ago?
Because I want them to. Where "I" is not me, but is rather the consumer.
Let's say you have a non-apple cell phone, a non-apple GPS, a non-apple PDA, a non-apple digital camera, and a non-apple whozitwhatzat. They all use the same charger. When you travel, you just have to bring that one charger, or better yet because it's a standard, you don't have to bring the charger. It's already available for free at airports and hotels.
Are you really going to tell me that it won't bother you to carry a charger for your iPod, when you just know that Apple is only not using the same standard everyone else uses because they don't want to add another port for aesthetic reasons?
I cannot imagine an elegant solution for abandoning millions of iPods/iPhones and support devices. The only reason to abandon it would be for the benefit of the other mobile device makers, not for Apple's benefit.
Of course, Apple will never do this, unless the alternative is an even worse scenario. The only worse scenario I can think of is if the rest of the world is aligned with micro-USB - not just for charging, but for sync, AV in/out, remote control, etc. And if accessory markets and car integration kits start focussing on the micro-USB market because of the much larger addressable market. Apple will not want to get left out in such a scenario.
I think Apple's 30-pin dock is a good solution. The only issue is that it wont be "standard", if the rest of the world is in the micro-USB camp. And Apple wont have any "technical" reasons to stay with 30-pin dock (because like I said, 30-pin dock ultimately is exactly the same as USB) - only legacy reasons.
The legacy reasons are definitely very important. So Apple will only change their port, if they can come up with some elegant workaround to support the legacy.
Apple is one company that has a track record of being able to change their technology, while keeping the installed base happy and supported for some time. Remember the change from Classic to Mac OS X? Or the change from PowerPC to Intel? This is not very different from those changes. In fact, in those changes, the installed base took a hit - because the performance was impacted relative to the new technology. And the support was short-lived. In this case, there wont be problems on those fronts - 30-pin dock would have the same performance as the micro-USB dock. And you can always buy adapters for the 30-pin dock to micro-USB - if not from Apple, then some 3rd party. Since the two technologies are very similar technically, there is no reason why one of them should get superceded.
Even if such a thing should be standardized, it should not be the EU mandating this - much better if there is an IEEE working group that comes up with standards to implement all the tasks using micro-USB. That way, if Bose makes a nifty player, and they support micro-USB, then all devices that support micro-USB would be usable. Same goes for car interfaces, etc. Standardizing on micro-USB for just charging makes zero sense. If you are going to standardize, the standard should incorporate ALL actions - charging, sync, remote control, AV out, etc. If such a standard came out, I am sure Apple would be willing to use micro-USB - because then, Apple would be left out.
A standard cannot anticipate all current and future needs. Trying to support all these functions through micro-USB would be a mistake. The circuitry necessary to route all this functionality through the four pins available in micro-USB would cause tremendous complexity in products. Complexity is the enemy of cost and reliability.
There is a simple solution to this. Apple just needs to ship a small converter with their devices that plugs into the dock connector and provides a micro-USB port.
Quote:
Before using micro-USB, there needs to be a much better understanding of how USB works. USB has an initial negotiation phase, where the device requests what kind of support it needs. When connected to a PC, the PC will recognize the device, and realize that the support requested can only be provided with the drivers loaded. Till the drivers are loaded, the PC will not send ANY power to the port. This is the reason why Black Berry and iPhone devices wont charge unless BES or iTunes is installed. There is an easy remedy to this, which is ALREADY supported in the USB specifications. USB devices can request for multiple profiles - for instance, a camera connected to the USB port can present itself as a Camera, as well as a simple Drive.
Yes, and anyone who has used USB (or firewire, or bluetooth) knows that this negotiation phase results in "plug and pray". It is so unreliable that device makers have "plug fests" where they get all their devices together to find out all the many ways they don't work together. Even with simple drive interfaces there are incompatibilities when you mix and match chipsets. After about a decade, USB profiles are still not reliable.
Quote:
The reason the wall chargers work, is because they IGNORE all the negotiation started by the device and just directly provide the power.
Right! Simple stuff generally "just works". Despite billions of dollars spent in R&D the industry still hasn't gotten the complicated stuff to "Just work". Apple's 30-pin interface is reasonably robust because each function has its own pin. Want to mount as a USB drive? Fine, then use the D+/D- pins. Want component video out? Fine, just use those pins. This is a great solution. All Apple needs to do is either add a micro-usb port for charging or include a converter to provide a micro-usb interface to the dock connector, and the problem is solved.
Quote:
Possibly an extremely small adaptor that adds minimally to the device dimensions, and converts the micro-USB dock on the new iPhones to the 30-pin format used in your existing accessories. If they are generous, they might give away one such adaptor with each device, or else charge $19.99 for it!
Yep! I totally and completely agree with this. Cheap, simple, solves the problem. Now that's good engineering.
My over all point is that its not reasonable to expect Apple to suddenly drop a successful technology simply because other device manufacturers are discussing a theorietical standard that may or may not happen.
The only way standards have been successfully adopted across the industry is through a standards board. The advantage of the standards board is that all of the major manufacturers join and support it. The board has no specific loyalty to anyone company. It would take several years for everyone to hash out what they feel is best for the standard.
If a universal standard can be created that replaces the full functionality of the 30 pin connector then it seems reasonable for Apple to use it. Seeing as Apple is the only device maker to invent one universal data/power cable for its handheld devices. The possibility of coming up with one standard that meets everyones needs and desires is highly questionable.
Quote:
Originally Posted by igxqrrl
Because I want them to. Where "I" is not me, but is rather the consumer.
Let's say you have a non-apple cell phone, a non-apple GPS, a non-apple PDA, a non-apple digital camera, and a non-apple whozitwhatzat. They all use the same charger. When you travel, you just have to bring that one charger, or better yet because it's a standard, you don't have to bring the charger. It's already available for free at airports and hotels.
Are you really going to tell me that it won't bother you to carry a charger for your iPod, when you just know that Apple is only not using the same standard everyone else uses because they don't want to add another port for aesthetic reasons?
Comments
This is good news for everyone. The current situation where every model of phone requires a different charger is crazy. As someone already mentioned some Motorola phones will refuse to charge unless plugged into a Motorola brand charger. Another one with the same specs doesn't work. RIM goes to even more ridiculous lengths. In order to charge a BlackBerry from your computer USB port you have to install BlackBerry drivers on the computer. Is there another product on the planet that need a special driver just to charge?
No they don't. I do not install any BB software on my laptop and it still charges fine from the USB port. The drivers are for sync only and really only used by people not connecting to a BES server or if you want to add software manually.
This is good news for everyone. The current situation where every model of phone requires a different charger is crazy. As someone already mentioned some Motorola phones will refuse to charge unless plugged into a Motorola brand charger. Another one with the same specs doesn't work. RIM goes to even more ridiculous lengths. In order to charge a BlackBerry from your computer USB port you have to install BlackBerry drivers on the computer. Is there another product on the planet that need a special driver just to charge?
I think iPhone might require drivers. I think most people might never suspect that because maybe iTunes installer installs a driver. My iPhone 3G will not charge from my Windows 2000 computer, and I can't install a current enough copy of iTunes to make it work. I've tried a powered hub, the USB 2 card and the front USB 1.1 jack.
While we are standardizing on our charging interfaces, why not standardize on how we plug in to our power grid at the same time?
3-prong plugs are bulky and ugly and a pain in the butt to wire. If I were king, I'd start there. Then I'd let Apple design a really cool MagSafe style of universal connector for electronics.
The goals would be:
Easy insertion without even looking at the device
As close to zero friction as possible
As small as possible to perform all the functions needed yet fit on small devices
Durable & Efficient
Like USB, there may need to be a few iterations of the standard to fit special case or fulfill unusual requirements.
I've played with the MagSafe adapter and it's so cool and easy and functional that I can't believe someone isn't looking into this for other applications like the iPod. Plugging the 30-pin into an iPod touch is a little tricky. No margin for error. And it's even worse if you have a protective case for your touch.
I don't think Apple is interested in licensing MagSafe...SJ, when introducing MagSafe on the MacBook Pro said something to the effect of "and we patented the heck out of this."
Your profile says WA, but that can't be Washington, United States, Earth because "Durable & Efficient" and Apple don't really go together. Just about everyone I know has had an Apple power supply fail.
I haven't had one fail, but I also gave up on using the wire-manglement tabs on the power adapters.
I think I was close to having the cable give out at the magsafe end of my MacBook Pro before I sold it.
Good thing you're not King, I'd hate to have to repurchase all my stuff because you don't like the standard Edison connector. If you do become King, I hope it's of the world so at least the standard power connection is world-wide. I'd like to know what you propose. I don't think I want anything smaller than we have when I have to grab it to plug/unplug 100-250 volts. Consider also, the gripping strength of the receptacle is important for current carrying capacity and sure connections. Please to not have my hospital equipment using magsafe when I'm electrocuted by your tiny sleek 200 volt attachment plug.
That said, Apple has no way out of the 30-pin dock connector...way to many accessories for the iPod/iPhone. The aim of a universal connector for telephones is great. I doubt Apple will want to add a mini-usb to the side/top of the iPhone, or any iPod. At least the dock cable is pretty common. Certainly agree with the ridiculousness of Motorola, my wife's phone uses mini-usb, but can't be bothered to charge off the mini-usb charger/power cord for my Nav or mini-usb cable to the computer.
If it were up to me, new phone/mobile electronic designs should use mini-usb where feasible. Especially on all the budget phones. And no more networks charging $30-50 for a computer connection cable...just use the USB. The next step, after a year the budget phones (the free ones, <$100) can stop including power adapters...if you need one, here buy this $15...$15 rebate if purchased with a phone.
England is part of the European union, what language do you speak? is it English?
there is irony somewhere in there, but i doubt if you see it
Sorry I didn't think I needed to put in the sarcasm notice. But yeah, irony or or maybe just plain old stupidity, let's create a mandatory standard to discourage innovation much like the French discourage any new words being introduced into their language. We already have words, we don't need any new ones. We already have a charger we don't need a new one - regardless of how much better a new state of the art charger may be.
3-prong plugs are bulky and ugly and a pain in the butt to wire. If I were king, I'd start there.
Making them less bulky isn't going to make it any easier for the electrician to wire. It's not even that hard, it's a one-time five minute install and it's usually good for several decades. The prongs are spaced that far apart for good reason.
Are we talking about the plugs or the receptacles? Neither are particularly hard to wire, especially when you graduate to the quality parts. Screw-down wire clamps for me, none of this wrapping wires around screws or flimsy spring loaded push-in connections please. Might cost a few dollars instead of $0.79, but I know it will last.
While we are standardizing on our charging interfaces, why not standardize on how we plug in to our power grid at the same time?
3-prong plugs are bulky and ugly and a pain in the butt to wire. If I were king, I'd start there. Then I'd let Apple design a really cool MagSafe style of universal connector for electronics.
The goals would be:
Easy insertion without even looking at the device
As close to zero friction as possible
As small as possible to perform all the functions needed yet fit on small devices
Durable & Efficient
Like USB, there may need to be a few iterations of the standard to fit special case or fulfill unusual requirements.
I've played with the MagSafe adapter and it's so cool and easy and functional that I can't believe someone isn't looking into this for other applications like the iPod. Plugging the 30-pin into an iPod touch is a little tricky. No margin for error. And it's even worse if you have a protective case for your touch.
I am sorry but this post really has to be one of the most ill-thought out and idiotic posts I have ever read.
You want magsafe to replace household power sockets?
You do know that a magsafe connector is connecting to a power converter that reduces the voltage down a notch or two so that it does not fry your MacBook don't you?
Do you know that the power from a household socket will kill you and your children in a flash if anyone happened to get close enough? Hence why the standard sockets are made with safety in mind (hey, a lot safer in the UK but still safe enough in the US). You really want wall sockets that are essentially just an open connecter surrounded by a magnet?
Go back to school.
I am sorry but this post really has to be one of the most ill-thought out and idiotic posts I have ever read.
You want magsafe to replace household power sockets?
You do know that a magsafe connector is connecting to a power converter that reduces the voltage down a notch or two so that it does not fry your MacBook don't you?
Do you know that the power from a household socket will kill you and your children in a flash if anyone happened to get close enough? Hence why the standard sockets are made with safety in mind (hey, a lot safer in the UK but still safe enough in the US). You really want wall sockets that are essentially just an open connecter surrounded by a magnet?
Go back to school.
The power from a household socket will kill me and my children, in a flash, if we get close enough? Oh crap... now I'm terrified to even operate my toaster!
Listen up, Sparky. My post was looking into the uncharted future. I saw Star Trek and didn't see USB ports and 2008 household power sockets.
From reading these posts, I now fully understand why Apple initially preferred to hire people under 30. Past that and brain tissue starts to set like concrete.
We've heard all the "it can't be done" dogma before when Apple moved from SCSI to FireWire and from Mini DIN-8 Serial Ports to USB. There were too many products out there using the old to switch to the new.
Well, here we are. I don't see too many old ports on my Mac. And the iPod is still popular even though it has been dropping legacy ports faster than congress can pass trillion dollar spending bills.
Always think outside the box. 10, 20, 50, 100 years from now, much will change. Imagine the future.
(And don't get near a power socket, lest you and your family perish in a flash)
I think this approach has some merit, and some flaws. While Apple's 30-pin dock connector has been designed to support charging, sync, remote control, AV out, etc., it should be possible for Apple to design a similar solution around micro-USB. I know it is possible, because there are multiple devices out there that use micro-USB for multiple things. And of course it is possible, without any performance degradation, simply because at the USB end of Apple's cable, those 30-pins of the dock are converted into the same pins as what every other micro-USB supports.
For instance, cameras use micro-USB for transferring images, several phones use micro-USB for sync and charging, etc. Instead of a dedicated pin for each task, the micro-USB model would just have to be designed differently at the software level.
Even if such a thing should be standardized, it should not be the EU mandating this - much better if there is an IEEE working group that comes up with standards to implement all the tasks using micro-USB. That way, if Bose makes a nifty player, and they support micro-USB, then all devices that support micro-USB would be usable. Same goes for car interfaces, etc. Standardizing on micro-USB for just charging makes zero sense. If you are going to standardize, the standard should incorporate ALL actions - charging, sync, remote control, AV out, etc. If such a standard came out, I am sure Apple would be willing to use micro-USB - because then, Apple would be left out.
Before using micro-USB, there needs to be a much better understanding of how USB works. USB has an initial negotiation phase, where the device requests what kind of support it needs. When connected to a PC, the PC will recognize the device, and realize that the support requested can only be provided with the drivers loaded. Till the drivers are loaded, the PC will not send ANY power to the port. This is the reason why Black Berry and iPhone devices wont charge unless BES or iTunes is installed. There is an easy remedy to this, which is ALREADY supported in the USB specifications. USB devices can request for multiple profiles - for instance, a camera connected to the USB port can present itself as a Camera, as well as a simple Drive.
If BlackBerry and iPhone request a simple "just give me 5V 100 mA power" profile, that would be supported by default in all operating systems, and provided without loading any driver.
The reason the wall chargers work, is because they IGNORE all the negotiation started by the device and just directly provide the power. This is usually fine because most USB devices have the same power profile. Devices that need more power usually connect to more than one USB port to get the power. However, there would be some devices that dont need the power - and could even be damaged if they get the power when they are not expecting to get power. You dont want the electronics in a camera to get fried because it gets power down a port that is meant only for data transfer. Of course, in a proper design, the port would be shielded, so that even if there was power coming in, it would be blocked. But maybe some cheap devices could be poorly designed, and not be able to handle the power coming down. The USB wall chargers dump the decision to the human user - you are supposed to know if the device needs and accepts power, or not.
The real problem for Apple would be how to transition 10 years of devices using the 30-pin-dock, into a micro-USB dock. Well, Apple being Apple, would come up with an elegant solution, and something that also makes them more money! Possibly an extremely small adaptor that adds minimally to the device dimensions, and converts the micro-USB dock on the new iPhones to the 30-pin format used in your existing accessories. If they are generous, they might give away one such adaptor with each device, or else charge $19.99 for it!
I think iPhone might require drivers. I think most people might never suspect that because maybe iTunes installer installs a driver. My iPhone 3G will not charge from my Windows 2000 computer, and I can't install a current enough copy of iTunes to make it work. I've tried a powered hub, the USB 2 card and the front USB 1.1 jack.
I charge my iPhone directly from the wall socket most of the time. No driver in there. I would have thought if the USB port is powered no driver is required.
I charge my iPhone directly from the wall socket most of the time. No driver in there. I would have thought if the USB port is powered no driver is required.
Wall warts can just deliver juice indiscriminantly, computer USB ports don't work that way.
A lot of people are missing the basic point here.
The real problem for Apple would be how to transition 10 years of devices using the 30-pin-dock, into a micro-USB dock. Well, Apple being Apple, would come up with an elegant solution, and something that also makes them more money! Possibly an extremely small adaptor that adds minimally to the device dimensions, and converts the micro-USB dock on the new iPhones to the 30-pin format used in your existing accessories. If they are generous, they might give away one such adaptor with each device, or else charge $19.99 for it!
Wall warts can just deliver juice indiscriminantly, computer USB ports don't work that way.
But they can do.
I have my BB Bold plugged into my MBP right now and it is getting power. No drivers or any set-up software required.
I have a USB socket in my TV and sometimes plug my iPod in it if it just needs a charge and I don't want it hanging around my MBP.
I really think that USB will deliver power indiscriminately to anything connected to it that can be powered via the USB cable.
Think about a HDD that a Mac cannot read, they still get power, the light still flickers on and the disk starts to spin even though nothing shows up in the Mac.
I just remembered yesterday I plugged my 3G stick into my MBP, it lit up and appeared to be working but for some reason I could not get a connection. Then I remembered that since formatting my MBP last week and reloading OSX I had forgotten to load up the drivers for it.
Point is that it still got all the power it needed despite not being a device that my MBP even knew was there.
The power from a household socket will kill me and my children, in a flash, if we get close enough? Oh crap... now I'm terrified to even operate my toaster!
See that is the whole point, you should not be terrified to get near your toaster because many years ago somebody decided that we should hide all the big nasty electricity inside an insulated box and keep the wires apart. Access is via tiny little holes that fingers cannot get too. I know you think it is crap but to be honest it is perfect design, function before beauty.
If on the other hand you had nothing but a little magnet keeping your fingers away from a 240 volt power source then yes, I would be freakin scared of your toaster if I was you.
Wall warts can just deliver juice indiscriminantly, computer USB ports don't work that way.
Mmm...I'm pretty sure USB lights, fans and lava lamps have no drivers and run off PC ports. Of course, if they draw more than 100mA they can cause your PC issues.
Here's the spec:
"If a portable device is attached to a USB host or hub, then the USB 2.0 spec requires that:
? after connecting, a portable device must draw less than:
o 2.5mA average if the bus is suspended
o 100mA max if bus is not suspended and not configured
o 500mA max if bus is not suspended and configured for 500mA
If a portable device is attached to a dedicated charger, it is allowed to draw a current of IDEV_DCHGR. If a portable device is attached to a host or hub charger, it is allowed to draw a current of IDEV_HCHGR_LFS or IDEV_HCHGR_HS, regardless of suspend.
If a portable device has a dead or weak battery, then the Dead Battery Provision issued by the USB-IF allows that device to draw up to 100mA until the device is able to connect. The conditions associated with the Dead Battery Provision are contained in this specification. "
Even without a driver and no way to negotiate, you're allowed to draw 100mA if the host isn't suspended. If you don't care about a USB certification you should be able to feign dead battery mode with connection repeatedly.
Attached = wire connected
Connected = able to negotiate power via pulling the D+/D- data lines high through a 1.5k ohm resistor to enter low, full or hi speed signaling.
The OS may not like you much without a driver but I think devices can still negotiate 100mA or even 500mA power doing nothing more than connecting via the USB2 spec on the D+/D- lines.
since when are ipod cables so expensive? First, you get one "free" with every ipod / iphone you buy (two ipods and two iphones later, i personally can find a number of perfectly functioning and compatible cables laying around my house). Secondly, you can choose from any number of suppliers who offer cables if you don't want to buy an official apple-branded cable. I was looking for a car charger for my first iPhone and on eBay I found a set of three cables- one wall charger, one car charger, and one USB ipod cable. I literally paid $3 plus shipping and they worked great. The "expensive" argument simply doesn't hold ANY water. Nobody ever feels locked into a phone because of the cables required.
Unfortunately not true. Once you've paid $300 for a Bose iPod speaker set, $250 for a car stereo that supports iPods, and a home theater receiver that supports the iPod, come back and tell me that you don't feel trapped into the iPod/iPhone interface. Note that I did not limit my comment to cables.
Also, to remark on the general discussion - as mentioned already, the 30-pin technology does much more than simply charge the device. It allows for A/V transfers, remote control information if in a dock, etc. Apple is not against standards - remember they invented firewire then gave it away for free to anyone who wanted to license it?? Forgot about that. A micro-usb port on the Iphone just wouldn't make sense at this point, so, big surprise - Apple isn't joining this EU effort.
Apple never gave firewire away free. Their licensing charges, which were applied to each firewire port, were considered by the industry to be exorbitant. Apple's licensing charges for the dock connector are also exorbitant. As are the charges for the little "Made for iPod" and "Works with iPhone" logos. Companies pay these fees because at this point they don't have much choice. The iPod is dominant. But you and I pay a significant premium for every iPod compatible device because of it.
This premium flows to Apple's bottom line, and adds to their $25 billion cash hoard. Sorry, but I need my money more than Apple needs it.
So now other handheld device manufacturers are tired of their confusion of connectors and are ready to establish one standard. Which I agree is a good idea. Apple has set up a ecosystem based on its own connector that works, why should Apple change what works, simply because the other manufacturers were not forward thinking enough to have done the same years ago?
Because I want them to. Where "I" is not me, but is rather the consumer.
Let's say you have a non-apple cell phone, a non-apple GPS, a non-apple PDA, a non-apple digital camera, and a non-apple whozitwhatzat. They all use the same charger. When you travel, you just have to bring that one charger, or better yet because it's a standard, you don't have to bring the charger. It's already available for free at airports and hotels.
Are you really going to tell me that it won't bother you to carry a charger for your iPod, when you just know that Apple is only not using the same standard everyone else uses because they don't want to add another port for aesthetic reasons?
I cannot imagine an elegant solution for abandoning millions of iPods/iPhones and support devices. The only reason to abandon it would be for the benefit of the other mobile device makers, not for Apple's benefit.
Of course, Apple will never do this, unless the alternative is an even worse scenario. The only worse scenario I can think of is if the rest of the world is aligned with micro-USB - not just for charging, but for sync, AV in/out, remote control, etc. And if accessory markets and car integration kits start focussing on the micro-USB market because of the much larger addressable market. Apple will not want to get left out in such a scenario.
I think Apple's 30-pin dock is a good solution. The only issue is that it wont be "standard", if the rest of the world is in the micro-USB camp. And Apple wont have any "technical" reasons to stay with 30-pin dock (because like I said, 30-pin dock ultimately is exactly the same as USB) - only legacy reasons.
The legacy reasons are definitely very important. So Apple will only change their port, if they can come up with some elegant workaround to support the legacy.
Apple is one company that has a track record of being able to change their technology, while keeping the installed base happy and supported for some time. Remember the change from Classic to Mac OS X? Or the change from PowerPC to Intel? This is not very different from those changes. In fact, in those changes, the installed base took a hit - because the performance was impacted relative to the new technology. And the support was short-lived. In this case, there wont be problems on those fronts - 30-pin dock would have the same performance as the micro-USB dock. And you can always buy adapters for the 30-pin dock to micro-USB - if not from Apple, then some 3rd party. Since the two technologies are very similar technically, there is no reason why one of them should get superceded.
Even if such a thing should be standardized, it should not be the EU mandating this - much better if there is an IEEE working group that comes up with standards to implement all the tasks using micro-USB. That way, if Bose makes a nifty player, and they support micro-USB, then all devices that support micro-USB would be usable. Same goes for car interfaces, etc. Standardizing on micro-USB for just charging makes zero sense. If you are going to standardize, the standard should incorporate ALL actions - charging, sync, remote control, AV out, etc. If such a standard came out, I am sure Apple would be willing to use micro-USB - because then, Apple would be left out.
A standard cannot anticipate all current and future needs. Trying to support all these functions through micro-USB would be a mistake. The circuitry necessary to route all this functionality through the four pins available in micro-USB would cause tremendous complexity in products. Complexity is the enemy of cost and reliability.
There is a simple solution to this. Apple just needs to ship a small converter with their devices that plugs into the dock connector and provides a micro-USB port.
Before using micro-USB, there needs to be a much better understanding of how USB works. USB has an initial negotiation phase, where the device requests what kind of support it needs. When connected to a PC, the PC will recognize the device, and realize that the support requested can only be provided with the drivers loaded. Till the drivers are loaded, the PC will not send ANY power to the port. This is the reason why Black Berry and iPhone devices wont charge unless BES or iTunes is installed. There is an easy remedy to this, which is ALREADY supported in the USB specifications. USB devices can request for multiple profiles - for instance, a camera connected to the USB port can present itself as a Camera, as well as a simple Drive.
Yes, and anyone who has used USB (or firewire, or bluetooth) knows that this negotiation phase results in "plug and pray". It is so unreliable that device makers have "plug fests" where they get all their devices together to find out all the many ways they don't work together. Even with simple drive interfaces there are incompatibilities when you mix and match chipsets. After about a decade, USB profiles are still not reliable.
The reason the wall chargers work, is because they IGNORE all the negotiation started by the device and just directly provide the power.
Right! Simple stuff generally "just works". Despite billions of dollars spent in R&D the industry still hasn't gotten the complicated stuff to "Just work". Apple's 30-pin interface is reasonably robust because each function has its own pin. Want to mount as a USB drive? Fine, then use the D+/D- pins. Want component video out? Fine, just use those pins. This is a great solution. All Apple needs to do is either add a micro-usb port for charging or include a converter to provide a micro-usb interface to the dock connector, and the problem is solved.
Possibly an extremely small adaptor that adds minimally to the device dimensions, and converts the micro-USB dock on the new iPhones to the 30-pin format used in your existing accessories. If they are generous, they might give away one such adaptor with each device, or else charge $19.99 for it!
Yep! I totally and completely agree with this. Cheap, simple, solves the problem. Now that's good engineering.
The only way standards have been successfully adopted across the industry is through a standards board. The advantage of the standards board is that all of the major manufacturers join and support it. The board has no specific loyalty to anyone company. It would take several years for everyone to hash out what they feel is best for the standard.
If a universal standard can be created that replaces the full functionality of the 30 pin connector then it seems reasonable for Apple to use it. Seeing as Apple is the only device maker to invent one universal data/power cable for its handheld devices. The possibility of coming up with one standard that meets everyones needs and desires is highly questionable.
Because I want them to. Where "I" is not me, but is rather the consumer.
Let's say you have a non-apple cell phone, a non-apple GPS, a non-apple PDA, a non-apple digital camera, and a non-apple whozitwhatzat. They all use the same charger. When you travel, you just have to bring that one charger, or better yet because it's a standard, you don't have to bring the charger. It's already available for free at airports and hotels.
Are you really going to tell me that it won't bother you to carry a charger for your iPod, when you just know that Apple is only not using the same standard everyone else uses because they don't want to add another port for aesthetic reasons?