This is very big for Apple. One of the many reasons we would not even consider running OSX on a server is the lack of a journaling file system.
As mentioned in this thread there surely is a perfomance hit when running a journaling system. We are running ext3 on Linux currently and we do notice the performance hit. However, when you are dealing with larger databases that see millions of queries daily having to spend more money on a server is well worth it just to run a journaling system.
Apple is starting to target mission critical scenarios now! I'm anxious to see what rack mount hardware 2003 brings for Apple.
It would make sense for Apple to ship an update for the client with this filesystem option off by default, but to ship a server update with this option on by default. I wouldn't be surprised if the update installer runs or ships with these different scenarios in mind.
So... what else can they write into/on top of the current filesystem that we all would love? Would this be a viable approach in general, or would it be more worthwhile to still develop a new filesystem for the next 10 years? From what little I've heard, there's as much going for HFS+ as going against it. As to what those advantages/disadvantages are... well, I'd like to know what they are.
<strong> But why does it come so quickly? why not keep it until the next MAJOR release? Interesting....
engpjp</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was planned for Jaguar, but didn't make it, so Apple is including it in a point release. Since Jaguar is a paid update, Apple needs to give every reason they can for updating, and a journal file system is simply one more feature to entice Mac users to upgrade.
Since 10.3 is likely to be a free update like 10.1 was, waiting would make little sense in terms of profit incentive. Furthermore, 10.3 is probably nearly a year away...why wait so long on something that is done?
As another reason for the journal file system release, the XRaid is going to be announced sometime soon. It's the rack-mounted RAID counterpart to the XServe, and with a top-quality RAID array to go along with the XServe, Apple is in even more dire need of a journal file system.
OS X is finally starting to pull ahead of Windows XP. The great thing about OS X is that because of it's modular design, it is relatively easy to incorporate new features. This enables Apple, with fewer resources than M$, to update the feature set of OS X more quickly than M$ can update Windows. Combined with the efforts of the open-source community, Apple surpass Windows XP with OS X 10.3 to a degree unheard of since Mac OS and Windows 3.1.
I don't know if Apple can ever really significantly "pull ahead" of a Windows OS, given the resources Microsoft has, but Apple is sure giving MS a run for the money.
The OS X structure, ambition and an amazingly rapid development schedule are giving Apple a fighting chance.
Why on earth do people think 10.3 will be free? You're just setting yourself up for disappointment. It will be $129, just like last time.
No kidding. Especially when you consider the economy and Apple's recent financial reports. Some people are just naive. I wonder if they'd think it's worth paying for, if they were the ones designing and coding it for 12 hours a day.
RAILhead reports another build (6F17 I think) has been seeded recently. Shouldn't be too long now if the original reports are correct. Not that I expect added "snappiness ?" or anything. But the mo' bug fixes the betta.
Anyone know/heard whether 10.2.2 fixes the audio bug that's been plaguing ViaVoice users?
ICYHH: it's been discovered that anytime audio gets sampled/recorded @ 22.something kHz, the resulting file is scrambled (sample data re-inserted @ 0.14 sec. intervals (IIRC)). ViaVoice records dictation @ that exact rate, & the scrambling means that the dictation sessions are munged & can't be analysed - a major blow to improving accuracy.
It's such an obvious 'oops' that it would (hopefully) be easily & quickly fixed, but ya just never know....
<strong>It's also being reported on the AI Front Page...
Sorry, I just can't remember the last time I had the opportunity to say that!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I know! I found it on MacSurfer! W00t!
Maybe we are back.
Did anyone else crack up over the codename for OS X Server? I love engineers sometimes...
As for fixing the ViaVoice bug, I haven't heard anything about it, but since Apple frequently slips lots of little fixes into their updates that doesn't mean it isn't there. Doesn't mean it is, either, but since it's an IBM app, not Joe's Voice Recognition, the odds seem to be pretty good that it'll get fixed.
<strong>I don't know if Apple can ever really significantly "pull ahead" of a Windows OS, given the resources Microsoft has, but Apple is sure giving MS a run for the money.
The OS X structure, ambition and an amazingly rapid development schedule are giving Apple a fighting chance.
Why on earth do people think 10.3 will be free? You're just setting yourself up for disappointment. It will be $129, just like last time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, many would say that OS X has already "pulled ahead" of Windows.
And I never said that 10.3 isn't worth a paid upgrade. I never said that about 10.2, either. But still, I think Apple is going to make the 10.3 update free, unless it's not out for a year or so. I'd expect that 10.3 will be released early '03, and then in August we'll see 10.4, and that will be a paid upgrade.
I'm not going to be disapointed if 10.3 is a paid upgrade as long as about a year has passed since 10.2. 10.2 was worth the price, and I don't doubt that the next paid upgrade will be as well.
I get real sick of you whiners constantly bitching about anyone who's opinion differs from your own. Not only do you whine, but you consistently attack others with strawman arguments, attributing opinions and positions to people based on mere assumption. It's damn annoying and I wish people like you would take a little more time to THINK before posting.
<strong>Wonder what is going on??????????</strong><hr></blockquote>It probably has bugs in it and isn't suitable for the current build. There are *other* things that get fixed and updated with the developer betas.
Remember, Apple has NOT made ANY public statement that the next Mac OS X 10.2.x update will include the "Elvis" journaling trick.
<strong>6F15 had journaling but it is gone in 6F17. Wonder what is going on??????????</strong><hr></blockquote>
A journaling file system is a MAJOR feature - as major as any feature added in 10.2. I was amazed when I read the reports that 10.2.2 was running around with this built in - and I would be even more amazed if they released it before 10.3.
This would be a huge selling point for the OS - to sneak it in under the radar with a bug fix seems a bit thick headed. Remember minimize in place?
Actually, many would say that OS X has already "pulled ahead" of Windows. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I definitely prefer OS X to XP, no question about it. And OS X is ahead of Windows (imho) in vision, in UI (mostly), in app philosophy, in using open standards, in simplicity and ease of use. Oh yes, and in pizzazz.
It's a close race, though. XP is packed with features (stability, fast user switching, fairly seamless compatibility) and significant improvements (including better ease of use) over previous Windows. It's the best Windows yet -- still an often obnoxious and creepy Microsoft creation, but the best Windows for those who can stomach Windows. Apple is going to have to push forward at an extraordinary pace to catch up in some areas, and stay ahead in others.
Which is what they're doing. Which costs money.
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:<strong>
I'm not going to be disapointed if 10.3 is a paid upgrade as long as about a year has passed since 10.2. 10.2 was worth the price, and I don't doubt that the next paid upgrade will be as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Glad to hear it!
[quote]<strong>
I get real sick of you whiners constantly bitching about anyone who's opinion differs from your own. Not only do you whine, but you consistently attack others with strawman arguments, attributing opinions and positions to people based on mere assumption. It's damn annoying and I wish people like you would take a little more time to THINK before posting.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh?
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>
Since 10.3 is likely to be a free update like 10.1 was... </strong><hr></blockquote>
You said that you thought 10.3 would likely be free. I don't.
Comments
As mentioned in this thread there surely is a perfomance hit when running a journaling system. We are running ext3 on Linux currently and we do notice the performance hit. However, when you are dealing with larger databases that see millions of queries daily having to spend more money on a server is well worth it just to run a journaling system.
Apple is starting to target mission critical scenarios now! I'm anxious to see what rack mount hardware 2003 brings for Apple.
So... what else can they write into/on top of the current filesystem that we all would love? Would this be a viable approach in general, or would it be more worthwhile to still develop a new filesystem for the next 10 years? From what little I've heard, there's as much going for HFS+ as going against it. As to what those advantages/disadvantages are... well, I'd like to know what they are.
<strong> But why does it come so quickly? why not keep it until the next MAJOR release? Interesting....
engpjp</strong><hr></blockquote>
It was planned for Jaguar, but didn't make it, so Apple is including it in a point release. Since Jaguar is a paid update, Apple needs to give every reason they can for updating, and a journal file system is simply one more feature to entice Mac users to upgrade.
Since 10.3 is likely to be a free update like 10.1 was, waiting would make little sense in terms of profit incentive. Furthermore, 10.3 is probably nearly a year away...why wait so long on something that is done?
As another reason for the journal file system release, the XRaid is going to be announced sometime soon. It's the rack-mounted RAID counterpart to the XServe, and with a top-quality RAID array to go along with the XServe, Apple is in even more dire need of a journal file system.
OS X is finally starting to pull ahead of Windows XP. The great thing about OS X is that because of it's modular design, it is relatively easy to incorporate new features. This enables Apple, with fewer resources than M$, to update the feature set of OS X more quickly than M$ can update Windows. Combined with the efforts of the open-source community, Apple surpass Windows XP with OS X 10.3 to a degree unheard of since Mac OS and Windows 3.1.
The OS X structure, ambition and an amazingly rapid development schedule are giving Apple a fighting chance.
Why on earth do people think 10.3 will be free? You're just setting yourself up for disappointment. It will be $129, just like last time.
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[ 10-28-2002: Message edited by: Moogs ]</p>
<strong>I don't know if Apple can ever really significantly "pull ahead" of a Windows OS, given the resources Microsoft has </strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you kidding me? Even Linux is becoming to much for Microsoft to handle ... and they don't even have Apple's resources.
<a href="http://www.theregus.com/content/4/26747.html"; target="_blank">http://www.theregus.com/content/4/26747.html</a>;
[ 10-28-2002: Message edited by: the cool gut ]</p>
Sorry, I just can't remember the last time I had the opportunity to say that!
ICYHH: it's been discovered that anytime audio gets sampled/recorded @ 22.something kHz, the resulting file is scrambled (sample data re-inserted @ 0.14 sec. intervals (IIRC)). ViaVoice records dictation @ that exact rate, & the scrambling means that the dictation sessions are munged & can't be analysed - a major blow to improving accuracy.
It's such an obvious 'oops' that it would (hopefully) be easily & quickly fixed, but ya just never know....
<strong>It's also being reported on the AI Front Page...
Sorry, I just can't remember the last time I had the opportunity to say that!
I know! I found it on MacSurfer! W00t!
Maybe we are back.
Did anyone else crack up over the codename for OS X Server? I love engineers sometimes...
As for fixing the ViaVoice bug, I haven't heard anything about it, but since Apple frequently slips lots of little fixes into their updates that doesn't mean it isn't there. Doesn't mean it is, either, but since it's an IBM app, not Joe's Voice Recognition, the odds seem to be pretty good that it'll get fixed.
Maybe they can disable the cache and drop all the busses back down to 66Mhz too.
I know I know, optional, but i just couldn't resist.
<strong>I don't know if Apple can ever really significantly "pull ahead" of a Windows OS, given the resources Microsoft has, but Apple is sure giving MS a run for the money.
The OS X structure, ambition and an amazingly rapid development schedule are giving Apple a fighting chance.
Why on earth do people think 10.3 will be free? You're just setting yourself up for disappointment. It will be $129, just like last time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, many would say that OS X has already "pulled ahead" of Windows.
And I never said that 10.3 isn't worth a paid upgrade. I never said that about 10.2, either. But still, I think Apple is going to make the 10.3 update free, unless it's not out for a year or so. I'd expect that 10.3 will be released early '03, and then in August we'll see 10.4, and that will be a paid upgrade.
I'm not going to be disapointed if 10.3 is a paid upgrade as long as about a year has passed since 10.2. 10.2 was worth the price, and I don't doubt that the next paid upgrade will be as well.
I get real sick of you whiners constantly bitching about anyone who's opinion differs from your own. Not only do you whine, but you consistently attack others with strawman arguments, attributing opinions and positions to people based on mere assumption. It's damn annoying and I wish people like you would take a little more time to THINK before posting.
[ 10-29-2002: Message edited by: Junkyard Dawg ]</p>
<strong>Wonder what is going on??????????</strong><hr></blockquote>It probably has bugs in it and isn't suitable for the current build. There are *other* things that get fixed and updated with the developer betas.
Remember, Apple has NOT made ANY public statement that the next Mac OS X 10.2.x update will include the "Elvis" journaling trick.
<strong>6F15 had journaling but it is gone in 6F17. Wonder what is going on??????????</strong><hr></blockquote>
A journaling file system is a MAJOR feature - as major as any feature added in 10.2. I was amazed when I read the reports that 10.2.2 was running around with this built in - and I would be even more amazed if they released it before 10.3.
This would be a huge selling point for the OS - to sneak it in under the radar with a bug fix seems a bit thick headed. Remember minimize in place?
<strong>
Actually, many would say that OS X has already "pulled ahead" of Windows. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well, I definitely prefer OS X to XP, no question about it. And OS X is ahead of Windows (imho) in vision, in UI (mostly), in app philosophy, in using open standards, in simplicity and ease of use. Oh yes, and in pizzazz.
It's a close race, though. XP is packed with features (stability, fast user switching, fairly seamless compatibility) and significant improvements (including better ease of use) over previous Windows. It's the best Windows yet -- still an often obnoxious and creepy Microsoft creation, but the best Windows for those who can stomach Windows. Apple is going to have to push forward at an extraordinary pace to catch up in some areas, and stay ahead in others.
Which is what they're doing. Which costs money.
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:<strong>
I'm not going to be disapointed if 10.3 is a paid upgrade as long as about a year has passed since 10.2. 10.2 was worth the price, and I don't doubt that the next paid upgrade will be as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Glad to hear it!
[quote]<strong>
I get real sick of you whiners constantly bitching about anyone who's opinion differs from your own. Not only do you whine, but you consistently attack others with strawman arguments, attributing opinions and positions to people based on mere assumption. It's damn annoying and I wish people like you would take a little more time to THINK before posting.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh?
[quote]Originally posted by Junkyard Dawg:
<strong>
Since 10.3 is likely to be a free update like 10.1 was... </strong><hr></blockquote>
You said that you thought 10.3 would likely be free. I don't.
[ 11-08-2002: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>
You said that you thought 10.3 would likely be free. I don't.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think every other upgrade is going to be free, and every other upgrade is going to be paid. Doesn't that seem to be the trend right now with Apple?