When selecting a speed test, the java applets 'start' button wouldn't show up.
I've noticed in Top Sites, that banner ad's will force the 'star' corner to signal the page has changed. Thats a bit annoying. Pretty much every commercial website has ad's on them or changing graphics.
It's crashed on me twice after quitting a pop up window that was streaming audio through WMV. That could be Flip thou.
I don't understand the complaint about the tabs on top... click anywhere and drag the window around with ease??? I don't get what the problem is...
Also, with the zoom feature, it would be nice if there was a way to quickly go back to default view. If there is, i haven't found it yet.
Here's a mockup design of what I think could be the new look of the Finder in Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Has tabbed interface like Safari 4 beta and other interface elements from iTunes 8. I think this look could be used across all Apple applications too.
That's awesome...let's hope so..
I'm loving tabs on top...tabbed finder would be double plus good and more intuitive with the + in the top right corner - as it stands I bet new users get totally stuck when they are asked by a recently installed application to drag it to the applications folder and find that when they click finder they just get the same window...tabbed finder with tear off would help solve that intuition gap...
Agree that it's time to bury aqua for good - subdued and discrete wins over Vista hideous technicolor vomit theme drawing unnecessary attention to itself and generally being hideously distracting...but I like the idea of the scroll region being invisible until I ever need them (which I never do basically)...
I'm also not understanding all the complaining about 'tabs on top'. It takes just a little getting used to, but I don't see it as dysfunctional in any way. In fact, I'm liking it the new way, and it wouldn't bother me to see Apple implement this feature in other places.
I have encountered one web site that doesn't display correctly in Safari 4.
I don't really like it either - I like having File, Edit, all that stuff up at the top. Now I don't mind having the do-it-all settings button but I'd like both and I think the lack of File, Edit, etc is going to keep many in the general population away from this...
I think you're confusing the Title bar (formerly at the top of a Safari window, and usually at the top of app or document windows) with the Menu bar (which is where "File" and "Edit" are located). This discussion is about tabs replacing the Title bar, not the Menu bar.
Absolutely no way that the scroll bar will be hidden until you mouse over it. That breaks it's functionality. You'd move your mouse over it then have to move it to find the draggable bar itself, rather than moving straight to where the bar is...
So I've noticed the removal of the pill button in the top right corner. Usually you could cmd+opt click on it and edit the toolbar. Maybe this function will be removed in 10.6? I sure wouldn't like to see it gone, I like making my icons smaller and removing the text from below them in third party applications.
Select "View>Customize Toolbar..." or Control-click anywhere in the toolbar.
Tabs on top may be useful and save space, but they're damn ugly in my opinion. And as stated earlier, the grab icon is the same as a resize icon, which could end up being confusing.
But it's a beta so that stuff will probably be refined for the final version.
Snow Leopard may even go a step further to make scroll bars disappear until the user mouses over them or scrolls up and down....
I certainly hope not. Scroll bars serve a very useful function, even when not actively in use: They indicate (a) the size of the page being viewed and (b) one's position in the current page.
I rely upon this information constantly, and the fact that it's unavailable on the iPhone until one actually scrolls is one of my disappointments with the iPhone. (Don't get me wrong; I love my iPhone. I'm just saying....) "Disappearing scrollbars" that only appear when one mouses over them would be a horrible step backwards.
I'm not one who resists change. To the contrary. I love Safari 4, and I'm always eager to adapt. What I hate is new versions of anything that remove previous features (e.g., Apple's removal of the "Put Away" command, which was immensely useful. WTF? Now, 9 years later, it's finally coming back).
---
The one thing in Safari 4 I don't like is the "Create a new tab" button. That corner is ugly. I use keyboard shortcuts, so I'll be glad when someone figures out how to remove that button.
What happened to the 'go back to the original page' button? (I forget what it was called). I use that all the time!!!
The browser itself is definitely faster but I not sure about 'Tabs on Top' yet. There's something unintuitive about it and greater mousing distance is required. The developer tools however are totally awesome.
The one thing in Safari 4 I don't like is the "Create a new tab" button. That corner is ugly. I use keyboard shortcuts, so I'll be glad when someone figures out how to remove that button.
Shit no...if you're going to accept the terrible "tab on top" design, you have to accept its 'terribleness' in its entirety.
I think you're confusing the Title bar (formerly at the top of a Safari window, and usually at the top of app or document windows) with the Menu bar (which is where "File" and "Edit" are located). This discussion is about tabs replacing the Title bar, not the Menu bar.
Well where the heck is the menu bar then??? There is no menu bar in the windows version and it's frustrating. I don't know if there's a menu bar for the Mac version or not (I'd imagine there is since Apple always keeps the menu bar on top of everything).
It's still more mouse miles but I'm fine with that - it's the absence of the Menu bar that's frustrating (again, this might be windows only)
EDIT: And you shouldn't have to select a corner to drag the tab around - you should be able to drag from anywhere, why else would you be clicking in the tab bar anyway?? (other than to close which already has it's own button)
Here's a mockup design of what I think could be the new look of the Finder in Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Has tabbed interface like Safari 4 beta and other interface elements from iTunes 8. I think this look could be used across all Apple applications too.
WOW. Bravo!!
What's interesting about Tabs on Top is that it's basically moving something akin to Microsoft's Taskbar (pre-Win7) up into the window.
What I'm constantly irked by in OS X is the situation of having two windows open in the same application and if I don't stagger them or they don't auto-cascade...there's no immediate visual cue that lets me know they're there at all. I have to use Expose or the Window list in the Menu Bar or ctrl-click on the application's Dock icon.
Tabs on Top, combined with the Sidebar many applications already have, would pretty much eliminate this problem.
The only thing I absolutely don't understand is the removal of the loading bar inside the address bar. The iPhone version of Safari, which Safari 4 takes many cues from, has it. Why not Safari 4? It's not like Apple's going to get rid of loading bars in Snow Leopard, so I'd urge people to send request to Apple for the return of this very helpful visual queue or at least ask them to consider providing some new and better alternative.
The reason why tabs on top was never done before today isn't because nobody had thought of it before and that Apple was the first to think about it. No, it's because it's a shitty idea that doesn't work well in practice.
Well, that's your opinion I guess, but you might want to think of an actual argument instead of just using the (meaningless in this context) word, "shitty."
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol
Couple that on top with the notion that tabs is a solution in search for a problem (on the Mac with Spaces and Exposé) and you've got a mess on your hands.
Tabs are already unnecessary to begin with. They don't scale well beyond a certain number of tabs. They offer hardly any visuals to someone that would want to switch to a web page quickly.
I think rather that it's pretty obvious that having multiple windows (one for each document) and using expose to manage them, and having multiple tabs (one for each document) and using a tabbed dialogue to manage them, are really just two different choices. Two different ways of solving the same problem.
You are (sort of) right about the scaling, in that tabs only work up to a certain point before you have to re-size the window, but I think you are seriously overstating the case. Expose can handle a lot more windows in theory than Safari can handle tabs, but I don't see the practical limitations of either being so different from each other. I have a 23" ACD which is big by most users standards, but even so more than about a 20 windows is unmanageable in Expose. On the other hand, a full screen browser on the same screen real estate can easily handle 20 tabs.
I would bet also that Apple has done usability studies and come up with a ballpark figure on how many windows people generally have open at once, or how many tabs. I would also bet that the number is quite low. The only people I have seen seriously upset about the tabs on top thing are (so far) all users that habitually have dozens of tabs and dozens of windows open, or people who seem to want to stick to the "window is a single document" metaphor and use Expose to manage them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kim kap sol
And when they replace the titlebar, they cause a handful of new problems.
I keep hearing this, but I don't see any major "new problems" caused by tabs on top. I find some things about it ugly, like the "new tab" button the lack of a progress indicator, the "mushing together" of all the previously discrete buttons, and some of the graphics, but the basic implementation seems workable to me. it takes a bit of getting used to, and I have to move my mouse up a further 20 pixels or so to change tabs, but the more I use it, the more I like it.
There are quite a few other aspects of the OS-X GUI that I have never liked or seen as useful/logical and although I get used to them, I still wish they were not there. Tabs on Top takes some getting used to, but I can see the elegance and simplicity of the feature already and I don't think it will fall into the category of "things that they never should have done" like the traffic lights or window minimisation.
Absolutely no way that the scroll bar will be hidden until you mouse over it. That breaks it's functionality. You'd move your mouse over it then have to move it to find the draggable bar itself, rather than moving straight to where the bar is...
Not only that but you want to be able to see with a quick glance approximately how long the page is. The scroll bar gives you an indication by its length. To have to hover over it to see it is silly. It would be like changing the color of the scroll bar because you can, you know... silly.
Shit no...if you're going to accept the terrible "tab on top" design, you have to accept its 'terribleness' in its entirety.
The tab-on-top design isn't "terrible," and customization is a basic privelege from which we all benefit. The Toolbar, for example, is customizable, and that's why most apps have something called "Preferences." I'm very picky about UIs, and I like the tabs on top. I simply want to remove the button, because I don't need it.
If you don't like tabs on top, that's fine. You can revert to the old style:
But to say that we shouldn't be able to customize Safari's "look and feel" because of your opinion about a feature is ridiculous and, frankly, immature.
tabs is a solution in search for a problem (on the Mac with Spaces and Exposé) and you've got a mess on your hands.
Tabs are already unnecessary to begin with. They don't scale well beyond a certain number of tabs. They offer hardly any visuals to someone that would want to switch to a web page quickly. And when they replace the titlebar, they cause a handful of new problems.
uhm... no. tabs are useful for organizing thoughts and keeping tasks separated from one another.
if one were to just use expose or spaces, there would be a lot MORE mouse movement and it would be much harder to keep things organized (moreover you'd end up with a LOT more spaces.
Comments
Have had some Java glitches like on:
www.dslreports.com/stest
When selecting a speed test, the java applets 'start' button wouldn't show up.
I've noticed in Top Sites, that banner ad's will force the 'star' corner to signal the page has changed. Thats a bit annoying. Pretty much every commercial website has ad's on them or changing graphics.
It's crashed on me twice after quitting a pop up window that was streaming audio through WMV. That could be Flip thou.
I don't understand the complaint about the tabs on top... click anywhere and drag the window around with ease??? I don't get what the problem is...
Also, with the zoom feature, it would be nice if there was a way to quickly go back to default view. If there is, i haven't found it yet.
Looks promising.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/35835860@N08/3308614371/
Here's a mockup design of what I think could be the new look of the Finder in Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Has tabbed interface like Safari 4 beta and other interface elements from iTunes 8. I think this look could be used across all Apple applications too.
That's awesome...let's hope so..
I'm loving tabs on top...tabbed finder would be double plus good and more intuitive with the + in the top right corner - as it stands I bet new users get totally stuck when they are asked by a recently installed application to drag it to the applications folder and find that when they click finder they just get the same window...tabbed finder with tear off would help solve that intuition gap...
Agree that it's time to bury aqua for good - subdued and discrete wins over Vista hideous technicolor vomit theme drawing unnecessary attention to itself and generally being hideously distracting...but I like the idea of the scroll region being invisible until I ever need them (which I never do basically)...
I have encountered one web site that doesn't display correctly in Safari 4.
I personally would like to see the Finder become a single window app.
90% of the time I have just two Finder windows open in column view.
This should be the default layout of the single window Finder.
Tabs are just creating more complexity in an environment that needs to be streamlined.
I don't really like it either - I like having File, Edit, all that stuff up at the top. Now I don't mind having the do-it-all settings button but I'd like both and I think the lack of File, Edit, etc is going to keep many in the general population away from this...
I think you're confusing the Title bar (formerly at the top of a Safari window, and usually at the top of app or document windows) with the Menu bar (which is where "File" and "Edit" are located). This discussion is about tabs replacing the Title bar, not the Menu bar.
Tabs are just creating more complexity in an environment that needs to be streamlined.
You don't have to use them. :-)
This indicates that Safari 4 offers a peak into Snow Leopard's...
Without making a mountain out of a molehill...
So I've noticed the removal of the pill button in the top right corner. Usually you could cmd+opt click on it and edit the toolbar. Maybe this function will be removed in 10.6? I sure wouldn't like to see it gone, I like making my icons smaller and removing the text from below them in third party applications.
Select "View>Customize Toolbar..." or Control-click anywhere in the toolbar.
BRAVO APPLE!!!!
But it's a beta so that stuff will probably be refined for the final version.
Snow Leopard may even go a step further to make scroll bars disappear until the user mouses over them or scrolls up and down....
I certainly hope not. Scroll bars serve a very useful function, even when not actively in use: They indicate (a) the size of the page being viewed and (b) one's position in the current page.
I rely upon this information constantly, and the fact that it's unavailable on the iPhone until one actually scrolls is one of my disappointments with the iPhone. (Don't get me wrong; I love my iPhone. I'm just saying....) "Disappearing scrollbars" that only appear when one mouses over them would be a horrible step backwards.
I'm not one who resists change. To the contrary. I love Safari 4, and I'm always eager to adapt. What I hate is new versions of anything that remove previous features (e.g., Apple's removal of the "Put Away" command, which was immensely useful. WTF? Now, 9 years later, it's finally coming back).
---
The one thing in Safari 4 I don't like is the "Create a new tab" button. That corner is ugly. I use keyboard shortcuts, so I'll be glad when someone figures out how to remove that button.
What happened to the 'go back to the original page' button? (I forget what it was called). I use that all the time!!!
The browser itself is definitely faster but I not sure about 'Tabs on Top' yet. There's something unintuitive about it and greater mousing distance is required. The developer tools however are totally awesome.
Select "History>Search Results SnapBack..."
The one thing in Safari 4 I don't like is the "Create a new tab" button. That corner is ugly. I use keyboard shortcuts, so I'll be glad when someone figures out how to remove that button.
Shit no...if you're going to accept the terrible "tab on top" design, you have to accept its 'terribleness' in its entirety.
I think you're confusing the Title bar (formerly at the top of a Safari window, and usually at the top of app or document windows) with the Menu bar (which is where "File" and "Edit" are located). This discussion is about tabs replacing the Title bar, not the Menu bar.
Well where the heck is the menu bar then??? There is no menu bar in the windows version and it's frustrating. I don't know if there's a menu bar for the Mac version or not (I'd imagine there is since Apple always keeps the menu bar on top of everything).
It's still more mouse miles but I'm fine with that - it's the absence of the Menu bar that's frustrating (again, this might be windows only)
EDIT: And you shouldn't have to select a corner to drag the tab around - you should be able to drag from anywhere, why else would you be clicking in the tab bar anyway?? (other than to close which already has it's own button)
Here's a mockup design of what I think could be the new look of the Finder in Mac OS X Snow Leopard. Has tabbed interface like Safari 4 beta and other interface elements from iTunes 8. I think this look could be used across all Apple applications too.
WOW.
What's interesting about Tabs on Top is that it's basically moving something akin to Microsoft's Taskbar (pre-Win7) up into the window.
What I'm constantly irked by in OS X is the situation of having two windows open in the same application and if I don't stagger them or they don't auto-cascade...there's no immediate visual cue that lets me know they're there at all. I have to use Expose or the Window list in the Menu Bar or ctrl-click on the application's Dock icon.
Tabs on Top, combined with the Sidebar many applications already have, would pretty much eliminate this problem.
The only thing I absolutely don't understand is the removal of the loading bar inside the address bar. The iPhone version of Safari, which Safari 4 takes many cues from, has it. Why not Safari 4? It's not like Apple's going to get rid of loading bars in Snow Leopard, so I'd urge people to send request to Apple for the return of this very helpful visual queue or at least ask them to consider providing some new and better alternative.
The reason why tabs on top was never done before today isn't because nobody had thought of it before and that Apple was the first to think about it. No, it's because it's a shitty idea that doesn't work well in practice.
Well, that's your opinion I guess, but you might want to think of an actual argument instead of just using the (meaningless in this context) word, "shitty."
Couple that on top with the notion that tabs is a solution in search for a problem (on the Mac with Spaces and Exposé) and you've got a mess on your hands.
Tabs are already unnecessary to begin with. They don't scale well beyond a certain number of tabs. They offer hardly any visuals to someone that would want to switch to a web page quickly.
I think rather that it's pretty obvious that having multiple windows (one for each document) and using expose to manage them, and having multiple tabs (one for each document) and using a tabbed dialogue to manage them, are really just two different choices. Two different ways of solving the same problem.
You are (sort of) right about the scaling, in that tabs only work up to a certain point before you have to re-size the window, but I think you are seriously overstating the case. Expose can handle a lot more windows in theory than Safari can handle tabs, but I don't see the practical limitations of either being so different from each other. I have a 23" ACD which is big by most users standards, but even so more than about a 20 windows is unmanageable in Expose. On the other hand, a full screen browser on the same screen real estate can easily handle 20 tabs.
I would bet also that Apple has done usability studies and come up with a ballpark figure on how many windows people generally have open at once, or how many tabs. I would also bet that the number is quite low. The only people I have seen seriously upset about the tabs on top thing are (so far) all users that habitually have dozens of tabs and dozens of windows open, or people who seem to want to stick to the "window is a single document" metaphor and use Expose to manage them.
And when they replace the titlebar, they cause a handful of new problems.
I keep hearing this, but I don't see any major "new problems" caused by tabs on top. I find some things about it ugly, like the "new tab" button the lack of a progress indicator, the "mushing together" of all the previously discrete buttons, and some of the graphics, but the basic implementation seems workable to me. it takes a bit of getting used to, and I have to move my mouse up a further 20 pixels or so to change tabs, but the more I use it, the more I like it.
There are quite a few other aspects of the OS-X GUI that I have never liked or seen as useful/logical and although I get used to them, I still wish they were not there. Tabs on Top takes some getting used to, but I can see the elegance and simplicity of the feature already and I don't think it will fall into the category of "things that they never should have done" like the traffic lights or window minimisation.
Absolutely no way that the scroll bar will be hidden until you mouse over it. That breaks it's functionality. You'd move your mouse over it then have to move it to find the draggable bar itself, rather than moving straight to where the bar is...
Not only that but you want to be able to see with a quick glance approximately how long the page is. The scroll bar gives you an indication by its length. To have to hover over it to see it is silly. It would be like changing the color of the scroll bar because you can, you know... silly.
Shit no...if you're going to accept the terrible "tab on top" design, you have to accept its 'terribleness' in its entirety.
The tab-on-top design isn't "terrible," and customization is a basic privelege from which we all benefit. The Toolbar, for example, is customizable, and that's why most apps have something called "Preferences." I'm very picky about UIs, and I like the tabs on top. I simply want to remove the button, because I don't need it.
If you don't like tabs on top, that's fine. You can revert to the old style:
defaults write com.apple.Safari DebugSafari4TabBarIsOnTop -bool FALSE
But to say that we shouldn't be able to customize Safari's "look and feel" because of your opinion about a feature is ridiculous and, frankly, immature.
tabs is a solution in search for a problem (on the Mac with Spaces and Exposé) and you've got a mess on your hands.
Tabs are already unnecessary to begin with. They don't scale well beyond a certain number of tabs. They offer hardly any visuals to someone that would want to switch to a web page quickly. And when they replace the titlebar, they cause a handful of new problems.
uhm... no. tabs are useful for organizing thoughts and keeping tasks separated from one another.
if one were to just use expose or spaces, there would be a lot MORE mouse movement and it would be much harder to keep things organized (moreover you'd end up with a LOT more spaces.