Having one for about 2 weeks is having one. So you can take you "no?" and shove it.
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Yes, YMMV, and not all netbooks are the same. Don't expect a netbook to be regular machine, useless speed is important to you.
A netbook is a netbook. It runs about as fast as a 3-4 year old laptop or in other words a late G4 iBook/Powerbook. That's fast enough for Office, iTunes and light iLife duty in addition to surfing in a nice light compact form that still has a usable keyboard.
Will you get the occasional beachball? Sure. But there are still a good number of folks clinging to their G4 notebooks waiting for something smaller than the macbook. A 10" Mac netbook is something more desired than a 10" slate tablet that can't serve as a travel laptop.
A well designed 10" Mac netbook is both tablet and netbook...far better than a pure slate.
That depends on how the 10" is implemented, which drove my later argument.
Mostly it's a function of size (pocketability) and usefulness for carrying around if it doesn't fit in a pocket.
Arguably it COULD be a tablet/eBook reader with only a touch keyboard but the usability of a virtual keyboard on a 10" screen is going to be pretty marginal.
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You're right, I got sloppy and grossly overstated. What I meant was, there are no infinitely large surfaces on a touch interface, the way the menu bar is infinite on a Mac.
True.
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No, actually, I'm asking about the platforms and the expectations that go along with them. If it's a Mac you expect to run Mac software on it.
I see that more a function of Atom vs ARM. It it's Atom, expect a Mac OSX netbook. If it's ARM then it's more likely iPhone OSX slate.
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My argument is that it's easier to scale the iPhone platform up than to scale the Mac platform down, and the main reason for that is that there is a minimum level of resource availability expected of Mac hardware that becomes extremely hard to satisfy when you're building a handheld device.
Probably...but a 10" isn't really a good size for a handheld device.
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I'm not sure why you think a convertible has better odds, but I'll agree that the odds are low.
Better odds simply because of the 10" size. No real reason not to be 9" or 7" as a slate. Lots of reasons to be 7" or so.
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This is really not an easy decision to make. The smaller the device is the handier it is, literally, but the more it must be restricted to consuming rather than creating.
Without a keyboard your more restricted to consuming than creating.
Without a stylus even more so because you've just eliminated drawing.
So what you have left is finger painting and a virtual multi-touch keyboard.
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I don't see the value in creating an iPhone, only 20% or 30% larger, but I've been wrong before.
Movies, games, web surfing and ebooks are better at that size.
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A 10" would yield enough of a surface for a more flexible interface, more gesture support, less eyestrain, and so on, but at the cost of pocketability.
That's a BIG cost. One IMHO only worthwhile when you can replace a heavier, bigger laptop for light duty.
A 10" slate may be more usable than a 7" slate...but not when I don't have it with me. Eyestrain is a function of backlighting and DPI for a lot of this stuff rather than size.
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If this is a real project, I wonder how much hair the project manager has lost.
I have seen the pocketability argument in several threads. Frankly, I find it strange.
iPhone is the perfect pocket-sized device. I, for one, would not like to have anything bigger in my pockets.
I think 10" is a good size for a tablet.
Best,
Daniel
The iPhone does fit nicely in a pocket but a PSP sized device (slightly wider but a bit shorter) is large enough to be much better but small enough to still be pocketable for large pockets.
A 10" device is right out for pockets and has to be deliberately carried. Plus it's a little big to span with both hands and hold. In other words, your thumbs don't quite reach the center unless you have big hands.
Would I carry a light 10" slate? Maybe. I'd rather carry a nice 10" convertible based on many years worth of tablet and palmtop usage, months of netbook usage and a couple years of iPhone usage.
The pocket size tablets are the iPhone and iPod touch. This is about 10" portable 'netbook' devices not pocket computers, you can't put an EeePC in your pocket either. A Mac Netbook/Tablet is going to be used for on the go stuff, not a main computer, Office/iWork, web, email, and some iLife apps. If its a tablet, and has a nice design, with a dock or stand, it would make a decent digital photo frame too (linking to a Mac like an Apple TV does) for when its not in use as a computer.
Mostly it's a function of size (pocketability) and usefulness for carrying around if it doesn't fit in a pocket.
Yes, that's the tradeoff, because the potential usefulness increases with the size. I don't think there's a clear answer to this from our vantage point, because to answer the question you'd have to know how much of that potential they've been able to realize. If they can't make a 10" tablet useful enough out of the box to justify the loss of pocketability then so much for that idea.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Arguably it COULD be a tablet/eBook reader with only a touch keyboard but the usability of a virtual keyboard on a 10" screen is going to be pretty marginal.
I don't see the usability case. Anything shrunken is going to cramp my style, because 25 years of muscle memory expect a full-size keyboard under my fingers, or I'm going to waste my time slowing down and looking at the keyboard instead of the screen while I'm typing. But touch-typing takes two hands and a hard surface, so it's pretty much ruled out for anything claiming to be a handheld anyway. If I'm going to be hunting and pecking with one hand or two thumbs the iPhone keyboard is no worse than anything else, except that it's much easier to generate accented characters and there's no expectation that I will have to do any chording with modifier keys--it's all software, so the're no physical restriction on the number of keys available, just the number displayed at any one time. Additionally, the predictive system can tell which keys you might have wanted to hit by mapping your fingerprint to the virtual keyboard, something that a conventional keyboard couldn't do with as much precision.
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Originally Posted by vinea
I see that more a function of Atom vs ARM. It it's Atom, expect a Mac OSX netbook. If it's ARM then it's more likely iPhone OSX slate.
Possibly, but even then, Atom is only power-efficient relative to Intel's other offerings. Relative to ARM, not so much. So it still comes down to whether the idea is to stuff a power-consuming platform into a tiny space or to scaling up a power-efficient platform that has designed for years to work within tiny spaces. Additionally, Mac software makes assumptions about memory and persistent storage (not to mention running in the background) that iPhone software does not, so it will never just boil down to the CPU. It's always about the entire platform.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Probably...but a 10" isn't really a good size for a handheld device.
Not ideal, no, but if it's very lightweight it might be worth the tradeoff. 6" isn't a very good size for a screen, either.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Without a keyboard your more restricted to consuming than creating.
Without a stylus even more so because you've just eliminated drawing.
You have a keyboard. It's just not a physical keyboard. But then, a physical keyboard offers no significant advantage if it's not big and full enough for touch-typing. That's where the speed is. Any portable device is always going to be more about consuming than creating unless you have tiny hands and very good eyesight.
You also have the ability to move the device itself--undo, for example, is going to be invoked by shaking the iPhone. But given that creative professionals have always pushed the envelope in monitor sizes, I can't imagine that any of them would flock to a device that would give them a tiny, cramped window into their work. Anything with a handheld-sized screen is biased toward consumption simply because it doesn't take much of an interface to watch something.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Movies, games, web surfing and ebooks are better at that size.
And they're even better on a 10"!
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Originally Posted by vinea
That's a BIG cost. One IMHO only worthwhile when you can replace a heavier, bigger laptop for light duty.
We'll see what they're able to do. But I doubt this device will be angled primarily to professionals. If creation is the goal, I'm not trading in my 17" PowerBook for a 7" or 10" anything.
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Originally Posted by vinea
Eyestrain is a function of backlighting and DPI for a lot of this stuff rather than size.
No, it's also a function of size. Small text is eyestrain hell at any DPI, independent of lighting. Ask anyone of a certain age.
I see that more a function of Atom vs ARM. It it's Atom, expect a Mac OSX netbook. If it's ARM then it's more likely iPhone OSX slate.
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I really think that IF Apple makes a netbook then it'll be with ARM.
One of the feature of current netbooks that Apple could exploit is the relatively poor battery life these devices have. Could an ARM based netbook have an 8 hour battery life? I don't know the answer but it wouldn't surprise me if Apple made another non-user replaced battery similar to the one in the 17" MBP that gives significantly longer battery life than what is available on current netbooks.
The nice thing is that this type of feature is difficult for pc makers to match and 'commoditize'.
I really think that IF Apple makes a netbook then it'll be with ARM.
One of the feature of current netbooks that Apple could exploit is the relatively poor battery life these devices have. Could an ARM based netbook have an 8 hour battery life? I don't know the answer but it wouldn't surprise me if Apple made another non-user replaced battery similar to the one in the 17" MBP that gives significantly longer battery life than what is available on current netbooks.
The nice thing is that this type of feature is difficult for pc makers to match and 'commoditize'.
And most current netbooks (with 6-cell batteries) get between 5-6 hours. I only have a 3-cell battery in my Aspire One, which gives me 2.5-3 hours, but even then, it's not an big issue, considering it saves on weight and the unit's overall size, and I'm never away from an AC outlet for more than a day.
And BTW, the 1000HE also has 802.11n and Bluetooth, a 160 GB HD, and a gig of DDR2 RAM, for less than $400.
I really think that IF Apple makes a netbook then it'll be with ARM.
One of the feature of current netbooks that Apple could exploit is the relatively poor battery life these devices have. Could an ARM based netbook have an 8 hour battery life? I don't know the answer but it wouldn't surprise me if Apple made another non-user replaced battery similar to the one in the 17" MBP that gives significantly longer battery life than what is available on current netbooks.
The nice thing is that this type of feature is difficult for pc makers to match and 'commoditize'.
The downside of ARM is then you need to get all your 3rd party devs to recompile for ARM. If you can get them to do it...great. The reason everyone went Atom wasn't because of speed but because you can run bog standard x86 apps on it on Windows XP.
I really like iWork and swear by Keynote. But no MS Office and OSX is suddenly a whole lot weaker as a platform.
Yes, that's the tradeoff, because the potential usefulness increases with the size.
That's the point. Why 10" then? Why not 11" or 12" or 13"? You could go as large as a sheet of paper and stay as thin as a MBA without making a slate any more or less onerous to carry but much more useful than a 10" slate since you can show a full page at full size.
Why not make it like this (only without eInk):
It fits nicely into any briefcase or portfolio or leather notepad like thing. If Motion Computing made their 12.1" slates thinner and lighter (and less expensive) than the MBA they would sell better. Today they are a hair thicker and 0.3 lbs heavier (and $200 more expensive...sure the digitizer costs money but still).
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I don't see the usability case. Anything shrunken is going to cramp my style, because 25 years of muscle memory expect a full-size keyboard under my fingers,
Retraining is fairly quick since the offset isn't that large from a 100% to a 92% sized keyboard. I can touch type on my netbook and many others can as well. The HP and Samsung keyboards are best at the moment but 10" keyboards are far more usable than the ones on smaller netbooks.
This is why that 10" size is "special". It's pretty much the smallest size you can expect to see a usable keyboard for a large number of folks. I'm going to guess 70-80% can use a 10" keyboard comfortably.
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But touch-typing takes two hands and a hard surface, so it's pretty much ruled out for anything claiming to be a handheld anyway. If I'm going to be hunting and pecking with one hand or two thumbs the iPhone keyboard is no worse than anything else,
If you have a 10" netbook handy, try spanning the display with your thumbs while holding the netbook (closed). You can't unless you have large hands. For a 10" display you're going to use that semi-circular keyboard in both corners for thumb entry when held. In which case a 11"-12"-13" size is just as handy.
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Possibly, but even then, Atom is only power-efficient relative to Intel's other offerings. Relative to ARM, not so much. So it still comes down to whether the idea is to stuff a power-consuming platform into a tiny space or to scaling up a power-efficient platform that has designed for years to work within tiny spaces.
No, it's more about where the machines is positioned relative to the product lineup. The Atom (as I've stated repeatedly) allows you the entire Mac software library to be used. The ARM requires any app you want to be recompiled for the ARM OR a Rosetta like emulation layer (not useful for something as slow as an ARM in comparison to a Core 2 Duo).
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You have a keyboard. It's just not a physical keyboard. But then, a physical keyboard offers no significant advantage if it's not big and full enough for touch-typing.
A 10" keyboard is large enough for touch-typing. Read the reviews of 10" netbooks. Most tout the advantages of the keyboard being big enough for touch typing vs hunt and peck on smaller netbooks.
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You also have the ability to move the device itself--undo, for example, is going to be invoked by shaking the iPhone. But given that creative professionals have always pushed the envelope in monitor sizes, I can't imagine that any of them would flock to a device that would give them a tiny, cramped window into their work. Anything with a handheld-sized screen is biased toward consumption simply because it doesn't take much of an interface to watch something.
So why go 10"? Why not 8.5x11 sized? 10" isn't even ideal for consumption because at the current common resolution you're limited to 1024x600 pixels...168 shorter than the minimum size many websites are designed for.
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And they're even better on a 10"!
And even better on a 13"!
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We'll see what they're able to do. But I doubt this device will be angled primarily to professionals. If creation is the goal, I'm not trading in my 17" PowerBook for a 7" or 10" anything.
Having lugged my 17" MBP around I have traded my MBP for a netbook for day to day use. The MBP stays docked at home and I carry a small 2.5" drive with all my stuff on it to and from work (Mac Pro) and use the netbook for documents and email. I hook it up to a 24" display at work and when I give presentations (alas powerpoint) I use it rather than lugging the MBP everywhere. I can even do some light programming on it but mostly it's the screen resolution that is most limiting. But it gives me far more mobility than my MBP for a loss in performance that doesn't matter for MS Office, Safari or iTunes.
I take my MBP on trips.
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No, it's also a function of size. Small text is eyestrain hell at any DPI, independent of lighting. Ask anyone of a certain age.
You can zoom on a smaller device. In portrait mode my iPhone text for this forum (zoomed just to the posting area but showing the entire width of a normal post) is the same size as on my monitor at the normal viewing distance for both (a foot or two for the iPhone, 3 ft for the display).
Interesting looking device. But I'd say it's a niche within a niche. I doubt it'll have any impact at all in the broader market. I certainly don't think it has any bearing on what Apple does.
lol, of course I'd be all over an equivalent from Cupertino!
Edit: I'm with vinea on the size issue. 10" makes no sense to me. If you need a flat surface to use the device (other than for *extremely* light use like browsing), then why not just use a notebook? If you need to put it in a briefcase/backpack, then where's the advantage?
The ideal size, for me, is the size of a Kindle 2. I have one in my pocket right now. It fits with ease, and is so light I barely notice it.
Apple is set to launch new OLED notebooks and flat panel monitors along with a new OLED iPhone claim sources at LG in Korea.
It's also believed that a new iPhone and iPod Touch due later this year will include an OLED screen made by LG who last year scored a multibillion dollar deal to manufacture display screens for Apple.
One source that SmartHouse has spoken to claims that Apple already have working prototype of a new Netbook which will be manufactured in Taiwan with the OLED screen supplied by LG.
LG have also said that they intend to increase their R&D investment by 25% with significant investments going into OLED solar and new battery technology. The Company has told ChannelNews that they will invest over $3B into R&D over the next 18 months and that recently Apple paid the Company over $500M US dollars up front to work on new monitor and display technology.
Sources in Taiwan told ChannelNews last month that Apple were looking at an OLED based notebook that will also incorporate new touch screen technology. Now sources in Korea are saying that this information is correct and that one area where LG has been testing OLED panels is in the area of touch sensitivity and "leave behind finger marks".
Th e sources claim that in recent testing OLED screens used on a notebook attracted "body oils and sweat" when a finger was constantly used on a screen. LG believe that by adding a layer in the manufacturing process that they can eliminate "finger marking".
Smarthouse was also told that Apple is looking at a wafer thin OLED screen made by LG that will link with a wireless content device similar to the current Apple TV box.
I have seen the pocketability argument in several threads. Frankly, I find it strange.
I don't, it ought to be a high priority for Apple. I'm sitting here looking at my O'Reilly RUBY POCKET REFERENCE and see that as almost an ideally sized enlarged Touch device. Maybe even slightly on the big size. The reasoning here is that such a Touch device would be just as easy to carry around as that book.
As stated in the title, it is very easy to fail in the tablet market place by making the thing to big. Some may pour pooh on that point but I believe there is a real human factors issue here. The thickness of the device is very important here too.
Now intended usage is important to, but in the context of Touch or IPhone devices there will always be the element of portability. In is the whole reason that the family of devices exist.
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iPhone is the perfect pocket-sized device. I, for one, would not like to have anything bigger in my pockets.
Us bigger guys have to deal with that every day . Sorry couldn't resist.
In any event this would be a device that you drop in your pocket the minute you put your pants on like an iPhone. Just like that Pocket Reference you grab it when you need it. It might go into a coat pocket or be bundled up with a stack of other books or hardware. The good thing is that the physical size is still manageable in a car or other vehical.
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I think 10" is a good size for a tablet.
I think it would be doomed for failure just like Mac Book Air. Seriously there are just to many problems with a device that size. We will see the same thing we have seen with AIR, massive sales to the early adopters and those with no self control. Then a rapid down turn in sale when people start to realize that the device fills a size slot no body has an interest in. A ten inch tablet will not be very attractive to people who see it as less capable than the mass of netbooks available, especially if it is priced like the AIR.
There are ways around this issue though. If the device has a ten inch foldable OLED screen it would turn the market upside down. The idea here is that the device needs to be far more compact than a netbook to maximize portability.
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Best,
Daniel
Likewise!
In any event I'm obviously not getting where or how a ten inch tablet would succeed for Apple. I don't see it as being a high volume device nor a device that fills the need of people that need more than an iPhone yet portable device.
With the cost of OLED this will be a Tablet. Prototype systems come in various form factors.
The cost of the Netbook market prohibits the first release of OLED displays. OLED displays being delivered to the iPhone and Tablet before general laptops and/or desktops is reasonable.
FYI: LG is not the major player in OLED space. Kodak and 3M are the major players and when they start jointly licensing their patents to Samsung and LG for a major push, then we'll see OLED hit the mainstream.
Though European and U.S. companies may not try to challenge East Asian companies for leadership in OLED manufacturing in their home countries, many of them in the electronics, chemical and lighting industries--including such heavyweights as Philips Electronics N.V., Eastman Kodak Co., Lucent Technology's Bell Labs and the DuPont Display Solutions affiliate of E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Co.--are pouring big bucks into OLED-related research in anticipation of rich patent royalties. They are also actively seeking out strategic partnerships with Asian companies.
With the cost of OLED this will be a Tablet. Prototype systems come in various form factors.
The cost of the Netbook market prohibits the first release of OLED displays. OLED displays being delivered to the iPhone and Tablet before general laptops and/or desktops is reasonable.
FYI: LG is not the major player in OLED space. Kodak and 3M are the major players and when they start jointly licensing their patents to Samsung and LG for a major push, then we'll see OLED hit the mainstream.
A ten inch device simply isn't a platform for Touch typing. I don't care if it is a tablet or clam shell, the keyboards are too small. Even my MBP leaves a lot to be desired here.
2.
A salable tablet would have to be ARM powered. I just can't see people accepting a thick tablet with a fan on the CPU. The case would have to be able to heatsink the waste heat from the processor. I could see Apple using it's CNC based case building regime to produce a case that custom fits to an inverted PCB to heat sink the warmer parts. You could do this with Atom but you would get unacceptably hot spots.
3.
Battery life will further dictate ARM. Maybe not in the sense of extremely long life but rather in extremely thin batteries of limited capacity. If Apple should shoot for a eight to ten millimeter thick design a very thin battery is likely. Conversely ARM means a smaller main board this a larger battery. Discussions about how long a Atom based netbook can run on X number of cells means nothing here as we are talking a completely different technology here.
4.
Bigger is not better with respect to tablets. If that where so Apple would make a 24 inch device. If you imagine a bell shaped curve of ideal tablet sizes you would find the ten inch size already well down the dropping curve. I still suspect that the usability peak is around seven inches. For many ten inches is the start of becoming uncomfortable.
5.
To eliminate confusion with Mac OS devices Apple will market this Tablet as a video iPod based on the Touch platform. Or possibly Apple TV, if Apple TV moves to ARM and iPhone OS.
With the cost of OLED this will be a Tablet. Prototype systems come in various form factors.
OLED screens don't have to be expensive. The reality is that they should be cheaper to manufacture than LCD screens. The R&D is expensive and a new production line costs money but it looks like Apple may have paid for this up front. To the best of my knowledge we have not seen many new monitors from Apple with OLED.
In any event OLED could be a huge advantage for a tablet as screen readability would be vastly improved.
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The cost of the Netbook market prohibits the first release of OLED displays. OLED displays being delivered to the iPhone and Tablet before general laptops and/or desktops is reasonable.
It isn't so much cost as it is manufacturing capacity. Sure constrained capacity will raise prices but if you have your own line then the capacity is all yours.
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FYI: LG is not the major player in OLED space. Kodak and 3M are the major players and when they start jointly licensing their patents to Samsung and LG for a major push, then we'll see OLED hit the mainstream.
There is so much potential to innovate in OLED space I'm not sure those patents mean much. In fact I could make an arguement that the American companies have really slipped up with respect to leading in technology development.
While it would be nice to see an Apple device based on a flexible OLED screen I'm not convinced the tech is ready. It would be more likely to see devices based on glass substrates as the sealing effect prevents oxidation of the organic compounds. A folding screen would be more doable on an iPhone where consummers have the expectations that the devices will be replaced often. I would jump at the chance to upgrade my iPhone to a device that opens up to a screen twice as wide as the current one but on a tablet I think I would prefer something that has the perception of being longer lasting. Either way OLEDs should lead to thinner lower power devices.
And most current netbooks (with 6-cell batteries) get between 5-6 hours. I only have a 3-cell battery in my Aspire One, which gives me 2.5-3 hours, but even then, it's not an big issue, considering it saves on weight and the unit's overall size, and I'm never away from an AC outlet for more than a day.
And BTW, the 1000HE also has 802.11n and Bluetooth, a 160 GB HD, and a gig of DDR2 RAM, for less than $400.
I can just see all those new kindle users with their jaws wide open touching the floor when Steveo goes "boom" and intros a full color high resolution mobile device with oled technology.
And then their jaws quickly come back up again with a sigh of relief - once they realize those Apple devices are three times as expensive as their Kindle.
Comments
Having one for about 2 weeks is having one. So you can take you "no?" and shove it.
Yes, YMMV, and not all netbooks are the same. Don't expect a netbook to be regular machine, useless speed is important to you.
A netbook is a netbook. It runs about as fast as a 3-4 year old laptop or in other words a late G4 iBook/Powerbook. That's fast enough for Office, iTunes and light iLife duty in addition to surfing in a nice light compact form that still has a usable keyboard.
Will you get the occasional beachball? Sure. But there are still a good number of folks clinging to their G4 notebooks waiting for something smaller than the macbook. A 10" Mac netbook is something more desired than a 10" slate tablet that can't serve as a travel laptop.
A well designed 10" Mac netbook is both tablet and netbook...far better than a pure slate.
That depends on how the 10" is implemented, which drove my later argument.
Mostly it's a function of size (pocketability) and usefulness for carrying around if it doesn't fit in a pocket.
Arguably it COULD be a tablet/eBook reader with only a touch keyboard but the usability of a virtual keyboard on a 10" screen is going to be pretty marginal.
You're right, I got sloppy and grossly overstated. What I meant was, there are no infinitely large surfaces on a touch interface, the way the menu bar is infinite on a Mac.
True.
No, actually, I'm asking about the platforms and the expectations that go along with them. If it's a Mac you expect to run Mac software on it.
I see that more a function of Atom vs ARM. It it's Atom, expect a Mac OSX netbook. If it's ARM then it's more likely iPhone OSX slate.
My argument is that it's easier to scale the iPhone platform up than to scale the Mac platform down, and the main reason for that is that there is a minimum level of resource availability expected of Mac hardware that becomes extremely hard to satisfy when you're building a handheld device.
Probably...but a 10" isn't really a good size for a handheld device.
I'm not sure why you think a convertible has better odds, but I'll agree that the odds are low.
Better odds simply because of the 10" size. No real reason not to be 9" or 7" as a slate. Lots of reasons to be 7" or so.
This is really not an easy decision to make. The smaller the device is the handier it is, literally, but the more it must be restricted to consuming rather than creating.
Without a keyboard your more restricted to consuming than creating.
Without a stylus even more so because you've just eliminated drawing.
So what you have left is finger painting and a virtual multi-touch keyboard.
I don't see the value in creating an iPhone, only 20% or 30% larger, but I've been wrong before.
Movies, games, web surfing and ebooks are better at that size.
A 10" would yield enough of a surface for a more flexible interface, more gesture support, less eyestrain, and so on, but at the cost of pocketability.
That's a BIG cost. One IMHO only worthwhile when you can replace a heavier, bigger laptop for light duty.
A 10" slate may be more usable than a 7" slate...but not when I don't have it with me. Eyestrain is a function of backlighting and DPI for a lot of this stuff rather than size.
If this is a real project, I wonder how much hair the project manager has lost.
True.
Mostly it's a function of size (pocketability) and usefulness for carrying around if it doesn't fit in a pocket.
I have seen the pocketability argument in several threads. Frankly, I find it strange.
iPhone is the perfect pocket-sized device. I, for one, would not like to have anything bigger in my pockets.
I think 10" is a good size for a tablet.
Best,
Daniel
I have seen the pocketability argument in several threads. Frankly, I find it strange.
iPhone is the perfect pocket-sized device. I, for one, would not like to have anything bigger in my pockets.
I think 10" is a good size for a tablet.
Best,
Daniel
The iPhone does fit nicely in a pocket but a PSP sized device (slightly wider but a bit shorter) is large enough to be much better but small enough to still be pocketable for large pockets.
A 10" device is right out for pockets and has to be deliberately carried. Plus it's a little big to span with both hands and hold. In other words, your thumbs don't quite reach the center unless you have big hands.
Would I carry a light 10" slate? Maybe. I'd rather carry a nice 10" convertible based on many years worth of tablet and palmtop usage, months of netbook usage and a couple years of iPhone usage.
Mostly it's a function of size (pocketability) and usefulness for carrying around if it doesn't fit in a pocket.
Yes, that's the tradeoff, because the potential usefulness increases with the size. I don't think there's a clear answer to this from our vantage point, because to answer the question you'd have to know how much of that potential they've been able to realize. If they can't make a 10" tablet useful enough out of the box to justify the loss of pocketability then so much for that idea.
Arguably it COULD be a tablet/eBook reader with only a touch keyboard but the usability of a virtual keyboard on a 10" screen is going to be pretty marginal.
I don't see the usability case. Anything shrunken is going to cramp my style, because 25 years of muscle memory expect a full-size keyboard under my fingers, or I'm going to waste my time slowing down and looking at the keyboard instead of the screen while I'm typing. But touch-typing takes two hands and a hard surface, so it's pretty much ruled out for anything claiming to be a handheld anyway. If I'm going to be hunting and pecking with one hand or two thumbs the iPhone keyboard is no worse than anything else, except that it's much easier to generate accented characters and there's no expectation that I will have to do any chording with modifier keys--it's all software, so the're no physical restriction on the number of keys available, just the number displayed at any one time. Additionally, the predictive system can tell which keys you might have wanted to hit by mapping your fingerprint to the virtual keyboard, something that a conventional keyboard couldn't do with as much precision.
I see that more a function of Atom vs ARM. It it's Atom, expect a Mac OSX netbook. If it's ARM then it's more likely iPhone OSX slate.
Possibly, but even then, Atom is only power-efficient relative to Intel's other offerings. Relative to ARM, not so much. So it still comes down to whether the idea is to stuff a power-consuming platform into a tiny space or to scaling up a power-efficient platform that has designed for years to work within tiny spaces. Additionally, Mac software makes assumptions about memory and persistent storage (not to mention running in the background) that iPhone software does not, so it will never just boil down to the CPU. It's always about the entire platform.
Probably...but a 10" isn't really a good size for a handheld device.
Not ideal, no, but if it's very lightweight it might be worth the tradeoff. 6" isn't a very good size for a screen, either.
Without a keyboard your more restricted to consuming than creating.
Without a stylus even more so because you've just eliminated drawing.
You have a keyboard. It's just not a physical keyboard. But then, a physical keyboard offers no significant advantage if it's not big and full enough for touch-typing. That's where the speed is. Any portable device is always going to be more about consuming than creating unless you have tiny hands and very good eyesight.
You also have the ability to move the device itself--undo, for example, is going to be invoked by shaking the iPhone. But given that creative professionals have always pushed the envelope in monitor sizes, I can't imagine that any of them would flock to a device that would give them a tiny, cramped window into their work. Anything with a handheld-sized screen is biased toward consumption simply because it doesn't take much of an interface to watch something.
Movies, games, web surfing and ebooks are better at that size.
And they're even better on a 10"!
That's a BIG cost. One IMHO only worthwhile when you can replace a heavier, bigger laptop for light duty.
We'll see what they're able to do. But I doubt this device will be angled primarily to professionals. If creation is the goal, I'm not trading in my 17" PowerBook for a 7" or 10" anything.
Eyestrain is a function of backlighting and DPI for a lot of this stuff rather than size.
No, it's also a function of size. Small text is eyestrain hell at any DPI, independent of lighting. Ask anyone of a certain age.
I see that more a function of Atom vs ARM. It it's Atom, expect a Mac OSX netbook. If it's ARM then it's more likely iPhone OSX slate.
.
I really think that IF Apple makes a netbook then it'll be with ARM.
One of the feature of current netbooks that Apple could exploit is the relatively poor battery life these devices have. Could an ARM based netbook have an 8 hour battery life? I don't know the answer but it wouldn't surprise me if Apple made another non-user replaced battery similar to the one in the 17" MBP that gives significantly longer battery life than what is available on current netbooks.
The nice thing is that this type of feature is difficult for pc makers to match and 'commoditize'.
I really think that IF Apple makes a netbook then it'll be with ARM.
One of the feature of current netbooks that Apple could exploit is the relatively poor battery life these devices have. Could an ARM based netbook have an 8 hour battery life? I don't know the answer but it wouldn't surprise me if Apple made another non-user replaced battery similar to the one in the 17" MBP that gives significantly longer battery life than what is available on current netbooks.
The nice thing is that this type of feature is difficult for pc makers to match and 'commoditize'.
Poor battery life?
The Asus 1000HE can get up to 9 hours:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/20/a...eee-pc-1000he/
And most current netbooks (with 6-cell batteries) get between 5-6 hours. I only have a 3-cell battery in my Aspire One, which gives me 2.5-3 hours, but even then, it's not an big issue, considering it saves on weight and the unit's overall size, and I'm never away from an AC outlet for more than a day.
And BTW, the 1000HE also has 802.11n and Bluetooth, a 160 GB HD, and a gig of DDR2 RAM, for less than $400.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220504
I really think that IF Apple makes a netbook then it'll be with ARM.
One of the feature of current netbooks that Apple could exploit is the relatively poor battery life these devices have. Could an ARM based netbook have an 8 hour battery life? I don't know the answer but it wouldn't surprise me if Apple made another non-user replaced battery similar to the one in the 17" MBP that gives significantly longer battery life than what is available on current netbooks.
The nice thing is that this type of feature is difficult for pc makers to match and 'commoditize'.
The downside of ARM is then you need to get all your 3rd party devs to recompile for ARM. If you can get them to do it...great. The reason everyone went Atom wasn't because of speed but because you can run bog standard x86 apps on it on Windows XP.
I really like iWork and swear by Keynote. But no MS Office and OSX is suddenly a whole lot weaker as a platform.
Yes, that's the tradeoff, because the potential usefulness increases with the size.
That's the point. Why 10" then? Why not 11" or 12" or 13"? You could go as large as a sheet of paper and stay as thin as a MBA without making a slate any more or less onerous to carry but much more useful than a 10" slate since you can show a full page at full size.
Why not make it like this (only without eInk):
It fits nicely into any briefcase or portfolio or leather notepad like thing. If Motion Computing made their 12.1" slates thinner and lighter (and less expensive) than the MBA they would sell better. Today they are a hair thicker and 0.3 lbs heavier (and $200 more expensive...sure the digitizer costs money but still).
I don't see the usability case. Anything shrunken is going to cramp my style, because 25 years of muscle memory expect a full-size keyboard under my fingers,
Retraining is fairly quick since the offset isn't that large from a 100% to a 92% sized keyboard. I can touch type on my netbook and many others can as well. The HP and Samsung keyboards are best at the moment but 10" keyboards are far more usable than the ones on smaller netbooks.
This is why that 10" size is "special". It's pretty much the smallest size you can expect to see a usable keyboard for a large number of folks. I'm going to guess 70-80% can use a 10" keyboard comfortably.
But touch-typing takes two hands and a hard surface, so it's pretty much ruled out for anything claiming to be a handheld anyway. If I'm going to be hunting and pecking with one hand or two thumbs the iPhone keyboard is no worse than anything else,
If you have a 10" netbook handy, try spanning the display with your thumbs while holding the netbook (closed). You can't unless you have large hands. For a 10" display you're going to use that semi-circular keyboard in both corners for thumb entry when held. In which case a 11"-12"-13" size is just as handy.
Possibly, but even then, Atom is only power-efficient relative to Intel's other offerings. Relative to ARM, not so much. So it still comes down to whether the idea is to stuff a power-consuming platform into a tiny space or to scaling up a power-efficient platform that has designed for years to work within tiny spaces.
No, it's more about where the machines is positioned relative to the product lineup. The Atom (as I've stated repeatedly) allows you the entire Mac software library to be used. The ARM requires any app you want to be recompiled for the ARM OR a Rosetta like emulation layer (not useful for something as slow as an ARM in comparison to a Core 2 Duo).
You have a keyboard. It's just not a physical keyboard. But then, a physical keyboard offers no significant advantage if it's not big and full enough for touch-typing.
A 10" keyboard is large enough for touch-typing. Read the reviews of 10" netbooks. Most tout the advantages of the keyboard being big enough for touch typing vs hunt and peck on smaller netbooks.
You also have the ability to move the device itself--undo, for example, is going to be invoked by shaking the iPhone. But given that creative professionals have always pushed the envelope in monitor sizes, I can't imagine that any of them would flock to a device that would give them a tiny, cramped window into their work. Anything with a handheld-sized screen is biased toward consumption simply because it doesn't take much of an interface to watch something.
So why go 10"? Why not 8.5x11 sized? 10" isn't even ideal for consumption because at the current common resolution you're limited to 1024x600 pixels...168 shorter than the minimum size many websites are designed for.
And they're even better on a 10"!
And even better on a 13"!
We'll see what they're able to do. But I doubt this device will be angled primarily to professionals. If creation is the goal, I'm not trading in my 17" PowerBook for a 7" or 10" anything.
Having lugged my 17" MBP around I have traded my MBP for a netbook for day to day use. The MBP stays docked at home and I carry a small 2.5" drive with all my stuff on it to and from work (Mac Pro) and use the netbook for documents and email. I hook it up to a 24" display at work and when I give presentations (alas powerpoint) I use it rather than lugging the MBP everywhere. I can even do some light programming on it but mostly it's the screen resolution that is most limiting. But it gives me far more mobility than my MBP for a loss in performance that doesn't matter for MS Office, Safari or iTunes.
I take my MBP on trips.
No, it's also a function of size. Small text is eyestrain hell at any DPI, independent of lighting. Ask anyone of a certain age.
You can zoom on a smaller device. In portrait mode my iPhone text for this forum (zoomed just to the posting area but showing the entire width of a normal post) is the same size as on my monitor at the normal viewing distance for both (a foot or two for the iPhone, 3 ft for the display).
$299 or $399 "Always Innovating" touchscreen netbook.
Apple will at least have to answer this.
Interesting looking device. But I'd say it's a niche within a niche. I doubt it'll have any impact at all in the broader market. I certainly don't think it has any bearing on what Apple does.
lol, of course I'd be all over an equivalent from Cupertino!
Edit: I'm with vinea on the size issue. 10" makes no sense to me. If you need a flat surface to use the device (other than for *extremely* light use like browsing), then why not just use a notebook? If you need to put it in a briefcase/backpack, then where's the advantage?
The ideal size, for me, is the size of a Kindle 2. I have one in my pocket right now. It fits with ease, and is so light I barely notice it.
Quote:
NEW Apple OLED Notebook & iPhone Confirmed By LG
By David Richards | Thursday | 19/03/2009
Apple is set to launch new OLED notebooks and flat panel monitors along with a new OLED iPhone claim sources at LG in Korea.
It's also believed that a new iPhone and iPod Touch due later this year will include an OLED screen made by LG who last year scored a multibillion dollar deal to manufacture display screens for Apple.
One source that SmartHouse has spoken to claims that Apple already have working prototype of a new Netbook which will be manufactured in Taiwan with the OLED screen supplied by LG.
LG have also said that they intend to increase their R&D investment by 25% with significant investments going into OLED solar and new battery technology. The Company has told ChannelNews that they will invest over $3B into R&D over the next 18 months and that recently Apple paid the Company over $500M US dollars up front to work on new monitor and display technology.
Sources in Taiwan told ChannelNews last month that Apple were looking at an OLED based notebook that will also incorporate new touch screen technology. Now sources in Korea are saying that this information is correct and that one area where LG has been testing OLED panels is in the area of touch sensitivity and "leave behind finger marks".
Th e sources claim that in recent testing OLED screens used on a notebook attracted "body oils and sweat" when a finger was constantly used on a screen. LG believe that by adding a layer in the manufacturing process that they can eliminate "finger marking".
Smarthouse was also told that Apple is looking at a wafer thin OLED screen made by LG that will link with a wireless content device similar to the current Apple TV box.
Article to story on SMARTHOUSE: http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Home_Of...5M8X6Q2?page=1
I have seen the pocketability argument in several threads. Frankly, I find it strange.
I don't, it ought to be a high priority for Apple. I'm sitting here looking at my O'Reilly RUBY POCKET REFERENCE and see that as almost an ideally sized enlarged Touch device. Maybe even slightly on the big size. The reasoning here is that such a Touch device would be just as easy to carry around as that book.
As stated in the title, it is very easy to fail in the tablet market place by making the thing to big. Some may pour pooh on that point but I believe there is a real human factors issue here. The thickness of the device is very important here too.
Now intended usage is important to, but in the context of Touch or IPhone devices there will always be the element of portability. In is the whole reason that the family of devices exist.
iPhone is the perfect pocket-sized device. I, for one, would not like to have anything bigger in my pockets.
Us bigger guys have to deal with that every day
In any event this would be a device that you drop in your pocket the minute you put your pants on like an iPhone. Just like that Pocket Reference you grab it when you need it. It might go into a coat pocket or be bundled up with a stack of other books or hardware. The good thing is that the physical size is still manageable in a car or other vehical.
I think 10" is a good size for a tablet.
I think it would be doomed for failure just like Mac Book Air. Seriously there are just to many problems with a device that size. We will see the same thing we have seen with AIR, massive sales to the early adopters and those with no self control. Then a rapid down turn in sale when people start to realize that the device fills a size slot no body has an interest in. A ten inch tablet will not be very attractive to people who see it as less capable than the mass of netbooks available, especially if it is priced like the AIR.
There are ways around this issue though. If the device has a ten inch foldable OLED screen it would turn the market upside down. The idea here is that the device needs to be far more compact than a netbook to maximize portability.
Best,
Daniel
Likewise!
In any event I'm obviously not getting where or how a ten inch tablet would succeed for Apple. I don't see it as being a high volume device nor a device that fills the need of people that need more than an iPhone yet portable device.
Dave
Guys please read this......
Article to story on SMARTHOUSE: http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Home_Of...5M8X6Q2?page=1
With the cost of OLED this will be a Tablet. Prototype systems come in various form factors.
The cost of the Netbook market prohibits the first release of OLED displays. OLED displays being delivered to the iPhone and Tablet before general laptops and/or desktops is reasonable.
FYI: LG is not the major player in OLED space. Kodak and 3M are the major players and when they start jointly licensing their patents to Samsung and LG for a major push, then we'll see OLED hit the mainstream.
http://www.printedelectronicsworld.c...sp?sessionid=1
Though European and U.S. companies may not try to challenge East Asian companies for leadership in OLED manufacturing in their home countries, many of them in the electronics, chemical and lighting industries--including such heavyweights as Philips Electronics N.V., Eastman Kodak Co., Lucent Technology's Bell Labs and the DuPont Display Solutions affiliate of E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Co.--are pouring big bucks into OLED-related research in anticipation of rich patent royalties. They are also actively seeking out strategic partnerships with Asian companies.
With the cost of OLED this will be a Tablet. Prototype systems come in various form factors.
The cost of the Netbook market prohibits the first release of OLED displays. OLED displays being delivered to the iPhone and Tablet before general laptops and/or desktops is reasonable.
FYI: LG is not the major player in OLED space. Kodak and 3M are the major players and when they start jointly licensing their patents to Samsung and LG for a major push, then we'll see OLED hit the mainstream.
http://www.printedelectronicsworld.c...sp?sessionid=1
Don't forget about Sony. Apple is supposedly in talks with them too about this.
A ten inch device simply isn't a platform for Touch typing. I don't care if it is a tablet or clam shell, the keyboards are too small. Even my MBP leaves a lot to be desired here.
2.
A salable tablet would have to be ARM powered. I just can't see people accepting a thick tablet with a fan on the CPU. The case would have to be able to heatsink the waste heat from the processor. I could see Apple using it's CNC based case building regime to produce a case that custom fits to an inverted PCB to heat sink the warmer parts. You could do this with Atom but you would get unacceptably hot spots.
3.
Battery life will further dictate ARM. Maybe not in the sense of extremely long life but rather in extremely thin batteries of limited capacity. If Apple should shoot for a eight to ten millimeter thick design a very thin battery is likely. Conversely ARM means a smaller main board this a larger battery. Discussions about how long a Atom based netbook can run on X number of cells means nothing here as we are talking a completely different technology here.
4.
Bigger is not better with respect to tablets. If that where so Apple would make a 24 inch device. If you imagine a bell shaped curve of ideal tablet sizes you would find the ten inch size already well down the dropping curve. I still suspect that the usability peak is around seven inches. For many ten inches is the start of becoming uncomfortable.
5.
To eliminate confusion with Mac OS devices Apple will market this Tablet as a video iPod based on the Touch platform. Or possibly Apple TV, if Apple TV moves to ARM and iPhone OS.
Dave
With the cost of OLED this will be a Tablet. Prototype systems come in various form factors.
OLED screens don't have to be expensive. The reality is that they should be cheaper to manufacture than LCD screens. The R&D is expensive and a new production line costs money but it looks like Apple may have paid for this up front. To the best of my knowledge we have not seen many new monitors from Apple with OLED.
In any event OLED could be a huge advantage for a tablet as screen readability would be vastly improved.
The cost of the Netbook market prohibits the first release of OLED displays. OLED displays being delivered to the iPhone and Tablet before general laptops and/or desktops is reasonable.
It isn't so much cost as it is manufacturing capacity. Sure constrained capacity will raise prices but if you have your own line then the capacity is all yours.
FYI: LG is not the major player in OLED space. Kodak and 3M are the major players and when they start jointly licensing their patents to Samsung and LG for a major push, then we'll see OLED hit the mainstream.
There is so much potential to innovate in OLED space I'm not sure those patents mean much. In fact I could make an arguement that the American companies have really slipped up with respect to leading in technology development.
http://www.printedelectronicsworld.c...sp?sessionid=1
While it would be nice to see an Apple device based on a flexible OLED screen I'm not convinced the tech is ready. It would be more likely to see devices based on glass substrates as the sealing effect prevents oxidation of the organic compounds. A folding screen would be more doable on an iPhone where consummers have the expectations that the devices will be replaced often. I would jump at the chance to upgrade my iPhone to a device that opens up to a screen twice as wide as the current one but on a tablet I think I would prefer something that has the perception of being longer lasting. Either way OLEDs should lead to thinner lower power devices.
Dave
Poor battery life?
The Asus 1000HE can get up to 9 hours:
http://www.engadget.com/2009/02/20/a...eee-pc-1000he/
And most current netbooks (with 6-cell batteries) get between 5-6 hours. I only have a 3-cell battery in my Aspire One, which gives me 2.5-3 hours, but even then, it's not an big issue, considering it saves on weight and the unit's overall size, and I'm never away from an AC outlet for more than a day.
And BTW, the 1000HE also has 802.11n and Bluetooth, a 160 GB HD, and a gig of DDR2 RAM, for less than $400.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16834220504
Wow didn't know that.
Most of the netbooks I've seen are the 3 hr variety.
Ignore that thought of mine.
p.s.
I'd still get one.
I'm a sucker for OLEDs...