There's a difference between "support" and "service."
?? He said support after 90 days stops- I fixed my post. However, I had no idea HP and Dell give support for a year. But what exactly would they support- Vista questions? I don't think so. What kind of hardware support would you need- like how to add a PC card?
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
Anyone who doesn't purchase AppleCare is truly ignorant and I don't mean that as a slight on your part or anyone else's part who doesn't consider it a necessity.
AppleCare covers the edge cases and having had an iBook with 2 logic boards, a DVD, LCD panel and HDD replaced, FOR FREE, you bet your sweet ass it's well worth every f'n penny.
Product in question: iBook 1Ghz G4 14". That little bastard is still running to this day 10.4.11 quite well with 1.5GB of RAM and two internal upgrades since for HDD up to 120GB. It run very well and is a secondary system, soon to be moved down to #3 out of 4.
As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.
These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.
Not sure it is an Apple issue. I work in IT & here lately all manufacturers we've gotten models in for seem to have more DOAs than usual. I think a lot of it might be the effects of the world economy on production in China.
Apparently hardware problems are not widespread enough to seriously dent the average user's satisfaction levels.
well when the issue is an online only upgrade that costs extra money and thus only a small percent of folks are going to do it . . .
now if it was an issue with the 9400 card freezing, then you'd hear a lot more noise.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
It's strange to see these kinds of problems passing through all the testing they do.
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion
Quote:
Originally Posted by Messiah
(even with the original machines 10.4 discs).
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid
Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by italiankid
Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
wrong and wrong. the 90 days if phone support. you get one year of parts and labor coverage without any apple care. they likely do that because it's hard to do support over the phone and they would rather you took it into a store for a face to face.
oh and by the by to the folks naysaying on the 'free for life' issue. that actually is somewhat true. my brother has my way out of date g3 and he can totally take it into a store for a 'genius bar' appointment at no cost, just like I can my new imac. it's only if there's an issue that he'd have to pay to get it fixed cause it's about 4 years out of even apple care.
Simple... in the event that your doctor increased the medication in your spiked kool-aid.
I said that to address the 100% glass-half-empty critics like you. My intent was to discuss a larger manufacturing problem outside of Apple entirely where components are made that would slip by the supervision of an interested buyer.
As things usually are with you and the comments you post in AI, you seem to be forever stuck in the rantings of a 13-year-old. I can count less than a handful of times you actually contributed any kind of decent content worthy of debate. Let us know when you're ready to enter the adult realm and dispose of your childish static.
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion.
I think you would be amazed at what configurations they test for at the Apple campus, for one. Once upon a time I had direct access to the test labs. Granted, it was awhile ago, but it still blew my socks off for what they had thought of and configured. I can't begin to imagine what that place looks like now. Perhaps some day I will find out again.
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion
There aren't that many setups they have to test. They don't have to try every HDD combo, for example. But I would expect them to test every memory config they offer, as well as with any other hardware that's an upgrade. That's just standard procedure.
Quote:
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.
That hasn't been true for years. It USED to be true that each install disk had a file for the machine it was for, but that's really old.
The only difference now is if a new machine has some new hardware that the OS must recognize. Otherwise, they are universal installers. I've installed the same disk on older machines without a problem.
Quote:
wrong and wrong. the 90 days if phone support. you get one year of parts and labor coverage without any apple care. they likely do that because it's hard to do support over the phone and they would rather you took it into a store for a face to face.
oh and by the by to the folks naysaying on the 'free for life' issue. that actually is somewhat true. my brother has my way out of date g3 and he can totally take it into a store for a 'genius bar' appointment at no cost, just like I can my new imac. it's only if there's an issue that he'd have to pay to get it fixed cause it's about 4 years out of even apple care.
No, my experience also comes from manufacturing, and from acquaintances who have companies who manufacture in China. I don't have to live nearby to know this. You would know this if you carefully read my posts.
Frankly I think you are the one who has acted a bit of an ass in this back and forth dialogue. JDW has presented his side with frankness and clarity. As I also have had experience with hardware manufacturing in both Japan and China, I tend to agree with much of what JDW has said here. Stating what one individual knows to be true for their situation should not result in your attempts to silence them here.
Not exactly what I would expect from a "Global Moderator".
Frankly I think you are the one who has acted a bit of an ass in this back and forth dialogue. JDW has presented his side with frankness and clarity. As I also have had experience with hardware manufacturing in both Japan and China, I tend to agree with much of what JDW has said here. Stating what one individual knows to be true for their situation should not result in your attempts to silence them here.
Not exactly what I would expect from a "Global Moderator".
But neither of you have justified your statements that essentially ALL manufacturing in China is poor, flawed, or whatever other accusations you want to make.
I never disagreed that there is poor quality coming out of some factories. Parts that are poor quality come out too. I never said they didn't.
But I did say that it isn't universal. There is high quality manufacturing done there as well.
Both of you seem to want to deny that for some reason, and I think that it's you who are being an ass about it.
If you actually bothered to try to understand my posts, you would see that I'm not taking an extreme position. I'm not denying your experiences either, which you should have noticed. But you seem to want to deny mine.
I DO take exception of blanket statements about whole industries when you only have some knowledge of it in the line in which you work.
And about that moderator thing. Nice try, but there are more than a few sites that would kick you off for just disagreeing.
This is just the next in a series of problems with ATI chips in Macs so there's likely a problem with their quality control.
At the same time I also blame Steve Jobs for insisting the iMac be so ridiculously thin that it can't cope with modern chips. Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.
Or better yet, make a mini-tower/desktop in the iMac price range.
Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.
yeah I was actually surprised to see how much harder it is to access the internals of the Aluminum iMac vs how amazingly easy it was on my old iMac G5 (rev A). They took 2 steps back instead of taking 2 steps forward like they should have. Esp since removing the glass means you are now going to have to be cautious about dust when you go to assemble it back together.
This is just the next in a series of problems with ATI chips in Macs so there's likely a problem with their quality control.
At the same time I also blame Steve Jobs for insisting the iMac be so ridiculously thin that it can't cope with modern chips. Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.
Or better yet, make a mini-tower/desktop in the iMac price range.
I think I said something like this a while back, but I think that Jobs literally has some bizarre form of hardware anorexia.
I picture him looking at hardware mockups, going "Oh God, it's fat, fat, fat! It's hideous! Thinner! It has to be thinner!"
And at some point the thing absolutely doesn't work, and he relents and lets it exist on the bare edge of what's possible, but in his heart he's still sickened by the lard.
Simple... in the event that your doctor increased the medication in your spiked kool-aid.
I said that to address the 100% glass-half-empty critics like you. My intent was to discuss a larger manufacturing problem outside of Apple entirely where components are made that would slip by the supervision of an interested buyer.
As things usually are with you and the comments you post in AI, you seem to be forever stuck in the rantings of a 13-year-old. I can count less than a handful of times you actually contributed any kind of decent content worthy of debate. Let us know when you're ready to enter the adult realm and dispose of your childish static.
If that's not the pot calling the kettle bondi blue, then what is? You're glass is 100% clueless- that's what's simple. You still haven't justified your rant against italiankid's statement that after 90 days you have to pay for support. And if you're so naive as to not realize that whenever any manufacturer releases whatever product with defective parts (components) is not responsible for the release of said product that there really is no need to go further with this. You must think Skippy would not be responsible for contaminated peanuts purchased from vendor Joe Schmo.
Why is this even news? ATI's problems with the 4800 series drivers is well documented, at least in the PC world. Go look it up. Their recent graphics cards have been just as buggy for PCs. Its funny to see this is such a surprise for some here. I was actually surprised Apple offered the 4850, as I fully expected there would be some freeze issues down the road. Well well, look what turned up.
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.
I think we've got our lines crossed here... my point is that the hardware hadn't actually changed, but it mysteriously required the latest version of the operating system.
Plus, rather than trying to copy a new OS to older hardware, I was trying to do the opposite ? see if an 'older' OS could be used on the 'new' hardware. As it couldn't, it stands to reason that Apple changed something in there, so that the otherwise identical hardware suddenly required 10.5.
I believe (clarification required) the only reason that the discs for a particular machine won't work with every other Mac, is that the installer only includes the drivers for that particular family of products.
Also 'universal' simply means that the installer will work with both PowerPC and Intel hardware.
As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.
These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.
Dang, I ordered one the day after they announced them. (and it STILL hasn't shipped)
I'm thinking about cancelling my order now. I don't want to get it and then have issues. My LAST iMac started having system freeze issues. (a G4) Now I've waited all this time in hopes of a new better system and gee... looks like I may be back in the same boat.
Way to go AAPL. Anyone else had crazy long shipping delays?
Comments
There's a difference between "support" and "service."
?? He said support after 90 days stops- I fixed my post. However, I had no idea HP and Dell give support for a year. But what exactly would they support- Vista questions? I don't think so. What kind of hardware support would you need- like how to add a PC card?
Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
Anyone who doesn't purchase AppleCare is truly ignorant and I don't mean that as a slight on your part or anyone else's part who doesn't consider it a necessity.
AppleCare covers the edge cases and having had an iBook with 2 logic boards, a DVD, LCD panel and HDD replaced, FOR FREE, you bet your sweet ass it's well worth every f'n penny.
Product in question: iBook 1Ghz G4 14". That little bastard is still running to this day 10.4.11 quite well with 1.5GB of RAM and two internal upgrades since for HDD up to 120GB. It run very well and is a secondary system, soon to be moved down to #3 out of 4.
how difficult is it to look up?
http://www.apple.com/support/products/proplan.html
As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.
These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.
Not sure it is an Apple issue. I work in IT & here lately all manufacturers we've gotten models in for seem to have more DOAs than usual. I think a lot of it might be the effects of the world economy on production in China.
Apparently hardware problems are not widespread enough to seriously dent the average user's satisfaction levels.
well when the issue is an online only upgrade that costs extra money and thus only a small percent of folks are going to do it . . .
now if it was an issue with the 9400 card freezing, then you'd hear a lot more noise.
It's strange to see these kinds of problems passing through all the testing they do.
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion
(even with the original machines 10.4 discs).
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.
Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!
Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
wrong and wrong. the 90 days if phone support. you get one year of parts and labor coverage without any apple care. they likely do that because it's hard to do support over the phone and they would rather you took it into a store for a face to face.
oh and by the by to the folks naysaying on the 'free for life' issue. that actually is somewhat true. my brother has my way out of date g3 and he can totally take it into a store for a 'genius bar' appointment at no cost, just like I can my new imac. it's only if there's an issue that he'd have to pay to get it fixed cause it's about 4 years out of even apple care.
Simple... in the event that your doctor increased the medication in your spiked kool-aid.
I said that to address the 100% glass-half-empty critics like you. My intent was to discuss a larger manufacturing problem outside of Apple entirely where components are made that would slip by the supervision of an interested buyer.
As things usually are with you and the comments you post in AI, you seem to be forever stuck in the rantings of a 13-year-old. I can count less than a handful of times you actually contributed any kind of decent content worthy of debate. Let us know when you're ready to enter the adult realm and dispose of your childish static.
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion.
I think you would be amazed at what configurations they test for at the Apple campus, for one. Once upon a time I had direct access to the test labs. Granted, it was awhile ago, but it still blew my socks off for what they had thought of and configured. I can't begin to imagine what that place looks like now. Perhaps some day I will find out again.
w
there is no possible way for them to test every possible set up, software combo etc. they do their best but sometimes there are folks doing something they hadn't thought of. like all the folks that bought mac minis and hooked them up to the big screen tv instead of buying an apple tv. they had no idea that folks would jump on that idea, so of course they didn't design and test for such a notion
There aren't that many setups they have to test. They don't have to try every HDD combo, for example. But I would expect them to test every memory config they offer, as well as with any other hardware that's an upgrade. That's just standard procedure.
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.
That hasn't been true for years. It USED to be true that each install disk had a file for the machine it was for, but that's really old.
The only difference now is if a new machine has some new hardware that the OS must recognize. Otherwise, they are universal installers. I've installed the same disk on older machines without a problem.
wrong and wrong. the 90 days if phone support. you get one year of parts and labor coverage without any apple care. they likely do that because it's hard to do support over the phone and they would rather you took it into a store for a face to face.
oh and by the by to the folks naysaying on the 'free for life' issue. that actually is somewhat true. my brother has my way out of date g3 and he can totally take it into a store for a 'genius bar' appointment at no cost, just like I can my new imac. it's only if there's an issue that he'd have to pay to get it fixed cause it's about 4 years out of even apple care.
That's correct.
No, my experience also comes from manufacturing, and from acquaintances who have companies who manufacture in China. I don't have to live nearby to know this. You would know this if you carefully read my posts.
Frankly I think you are the one who has acted a bit of an ass in this back and forth dialogue. JDW has presented his side with frankness and clarity. As I also have had experience with hardware manufacturing in both Japan and China, I tend to agree with much of what JDW has said here. Stating what one individual knows to be true for their situation should not result in your attempts to silence them here.
Not exactly what I would expect from a "Global Moderator".
Frankly I think you are the one who has acted a bit of an ass in this back and forth dialogue. JDW has presented his side with frankness and clarity. As I also have had experience with hardware manufacturing in both Japan and China, I tend to agree with much of what JDW has said here. Stating what one individual knows to be true for their situation should not result in your attempts to silence them here.
Not exactly what I would expect from a "Global Moderator".
But neither of you have justified your statements that essentially ALL manufacturing in China is poor, flawed, or whatever other accusations you want to make.
I never disagreed that there is poor quality coming out of some factories. Parts that are poor quality come out too. I never said they didn't.
But I did say that it isn't universal. There is high quality manufacturing done there as well.
Both of you seem to want to deny that for some reason, and I think that it's you who are being an ass about it.
If you actually bothered to try to understand my posts, you would see that I'm not taking an extreme position. I'm not denying your experiences either, which you should have noticed. But you seem to want to deny mine.
I DO take exception of blanket statements about whole industries when you only have some knowledge of it in the line in which you work.
And about that moderator thing. Nice try, but there are more than a few sites that would kick you off for just disagreeing.
At the same time I also blame Steve Jobs for insisting the iMac be so ridiculously thin that it can't cope with modern chips. Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.
Or better yet, make a mini-tower/desktop in the iMac price range.
Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.
yeah I was actually surprised to see how much harder it is to access the internals of the Aluminum iMac vs how amazingly easy it was on my old iMac G5 (rev A). They took 2 steps back instead of taking 2 steps forward like they should have. Esp since removing the glass means you are now going to have to be cautious about dust when you go to assemble it back together.
This is just the next in a series of problems with ATI chips in Macs so there's likely a problem with their quality control.
At the same time I also blame Steve Jobs for insisting the iMac be so ridiculously thin that it can't cope with modern chips. Make the damn thing another 1/2" thick and there'll be plenty of room for proper cooling, not to mention a design that allows the hard drive to be upgraded without having to remove the LCD panel.
Or better yet, make a mini-tower/desktop in the iMac price range.
I think I said something like this a while back, but I think that Jobs literally has some bizarre form of hardware anorexia.
I picture him looking at hardware mockups, going "Oh God, it's fat, fat, fat! It's hideous! Thinner! It has to be thinner!"
And at some point the thing absolutely doesn't work, and he relents and lets it exist on the bare edge of what's possible, but in his heart he's still sickened by the lard.
Simple... in the event that your doctor increased the medication in your spiked kool-aid.
I said that to address the 100% glass-half-empty critics like you. My intent was to discuss a larger manufacturing problem outside of Apple entirely where components are made that would slip by the supervision of an interested buyer.
As things usually are with you and the comments you post in AI, you seem to be forever stuck in the rantings of a 13-year-old. I can count less than a handful of times you actually contributed any kind of decent content worthy of debate. Let us know when you're ready to enter the adult realm and dispose of your childish static.
If that's not the pot calling the kettle bondi blue, then what is? You're glass is 100% clueless- that's what's simple. You still haven't justified your rant against italiankid's statement that after 90 days you have to pay for support. And if you're so naive as to not realize that whenever any manufacturer releases whatever product with defective parts (components) is not responsible for the release of said product that there really is no need to go further with this. You must think Skippy would not be responsible for contaminated peanuts purchased from vendor Joe Schmo.
Good bye.
Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!
So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....
Oh man, that sucks!
We get 12 months in the UK?
Oh man, that sucks!
We get 12 months in the UK?
You get the same coverage in the States as you do in the UK. ItalianKid is just FUDing around as usual.
and therein lies the problem. those discs that come with a machine are coded to only work on that particular hardware. it's part of how they keep you from copying the OS to older machines instead of buying a retail 'universal' copy.
I think we've got our lines crossed here... my point is that the hardware hadn't actually changed, but it mysteriously required the latest version of the operating system.
Plus, rather than trying to copy a new OS to older hardware, I was trying to do the opposite ? see if an 'older' OS could be used on the 'new' hardware. As it couldn't, it stands to reason that Apple changed something in there, so that the otherwise identical hardware suddenly required 10.5.
I believe (clarification required) the only reason that the discs for a particular machine won't work with every other Mac, is that the installer only includes the drivers for that particular family of products.
Also 'universal' simply means that the installer will work with both PowerPC and Intel hardware.
As much as I support Apple and am the first one to side with them on most of their strategies (i'm really one of the most vocal Apple supporters), this is getting ridiculous. LCD issues, Nvidia problems, ATI problems of the past and more ATI problems now.
These issues have to stop. This isn't Dell, HP, or any of the other junkbox makers that run that broken OS, Windows. This is Apple. But for some reason these days, their quality control isn't exactly in line with their lofty mission statement. And this is especially troubling in light of the premium people pay in order to use OS X on supposedly high-quality hardware.
Stop talking out of your ass.
I'm thinking about cancelling my order now. I don't want to get it and then have issues. My LAST iMac started having system freeze issues. (a G4) Now I've waited all this time in hopes of a new better system and gee... looks like I may be back in the same boat.
Way to go AAPL. Anyone else had crazy long shipping delays?