Neither of us are "wrong" Einstein. My experience dealing with Chinese suppliers is just different than yours. That does not mean that your opinion is gospel to all us villagers.
My blanket blame of China in its entirety was not written well and I could have explained it better. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. I know very well that China does make high-end products that rival what other very well-developed countries can manufacture.
However, I firmly believe that given the opportunity, even those manufacturers will skimp on quality if they could get away with it. If not by them directly, then by another sub-supplier. Responsibility must be done by the company (in this case Apple) to make sure all components that go into their machines meets quality specs. However, this is a daunting task considering the millions of components that get used each year.
My company deals with directly with Chinese suppliers overseas. I could write a book detailing how they try to skimp on quality that we pay for because we can't provide constant on-site supervision. Ridiculous sometimes.
I don't believe I am being prejudiced simply because I state a vocal opinion of questionable business practices. As a people, I have high respect for the Chinese populace and their culture. So if you're implying I might have a racial issue, it really is a direction you don't want to go.
Don't be a smartass!
I said that you were blaming the entire manufacturing industry, and you were. No one argues that everything coming out of China, or anywhere for that matter is great quality. But to say that everything coming out is poor quality is just as wrong. and you were certainly saying that.
And, no, I don't mean racial prejudice. I mean country prejudice.
Damn, mine should arrive this week after a month of waiting. I wanted to make sure it'd last as long as possible so I sprang for the upgrade on the 2.92Ghz model. Guess at this point I just need to cross my fingers and see how it does. I'll definitely be updating folks on the result.
Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!
So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....
Apple's warranty on computers is for a full year. There is free telephone support for only the first 90 days, but you can take it into an Apple Store or send it to Apple anytime within the first year.
My experience dealing with Chinese suppliers... My company deals with directly with Chinese suppliers overseas. I could write a book detailing how they try to skimp on quality that we pay for because we can't provide constant on-site supervision. Ridiculous sometimes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Don't be a smartass! to say that everything coming out is poor quality is just as wrong. and you were certainly saying that. country prejudice.
There are some harsh words coming from New York City, from an individual who apparently has zero experience manufacturing here in Asia, more less living here in Asia and dealing with factories in Taiwan and China on a daily basis. It's not a racial issue or "country prejudice." It's a manufacturing reality. Any knee-jerk responses here about "race" are ridiculous. (Personally, I don't believe in "race." There's one race on this planet -- the human race.)
Nevertheless, "manufacturing" comments made by sflocal were valid and reflect what I myself, based here in Asia, manufacturing in China and Taiwan, see continually. If we do not have our Japanese staff at the factory in Taiwan or China, a select number of our more electronically complex products do not get built with "acceptable quality." The factories we choose to build in are largely irrelevant to quality. There is a standard of quality that differs from country to country. Everyone in manufacturing knows this. But those of us in manufacturing take "risks" sometimes because we have to in order to save costs. You save a lot of money building in Japan, but you also have a higher number of defects, even with your own staff overseeing production.
Of course, with my company being based on Japan, we are seeing all this through Japanese eyes (along with my American eyes), with the intent of selling some "Made in China" products in Japan (with individual components from China, Taiwan, Japan, USA, and other countries). Most of you in the know will recognize that the Japanese consumer is perhaps the most demanding of any on the planet. (Yes, they will even complain about "lint" on a product.) "Quality" is a critical point to sell anything in Japan, which is why some companies even go so far as to pay through the nose to still build here in Japan (not just "assemble").
The fact remains that Macs in years past, made in Singapore, Fremont CA USA, Japan and Ireland were of better quality than Macs that have come in our recent years. The customer really couldn't care less where the product is made (unless perhaps the product is food). The buyer cares about quality. To argue that current Macintosh products are "good enough" is to deny that products of old were of higher quality and is little more than a defense of the status quo. No doubt Apple has reasons for building in China, just like my company does. But Apple also needs to work harder in China to ensure quality meets the same "premium" standards of quality its older products had, which is a critical point in light of the higher prices Apple lovers (myself included) pay for Apple merchandise.
WIth all this said, it would appear this problem affects the optional Radeon parts alone, not the Nvidia. Hence, it would make sense to examine how those Radeon parts are being assembled, where, by whom, and then take a look at how when and where they are installed in the iMacs. If the Nvidia cards are being built in China and working fine, then it makes logical sense that Apple could (if it wanted to) take steps to ensure that the Radeon cards worked equally well. But they will probably look at a software fix (firmware update) rather than the best choice of a hardware fix, simply because they don't want a product recall on their hands. Software is much cheaper to fix than hardware. It will be curious to see how Apple handles this in the end.
There are some harsh words coming from New York City, from an individual who apparently has zero experience manufacturing here in Asia, more less living here in Asia and dealing with factories in Taiwan and China on a daily basis. It's not a racial issue or "country prejudice." It's a manufacturing reality. Any knee-jerk responses here about "race" are ridiculous. (Personally, I don't believe in "race." There's one race on this planet -- the human race.)
Nevertheless, "manufacturing" comments made by sflocal were valid and reflect what I myself, based here in Asia, manufacturing in China and Taiwan, see continually. If we do not have our Japanese staff at the factory in Taiwan or China, a select number of our more electronically complex products do not get built with "acceptable quality." The factories we choose to build in are largely irrelevant to quality. There is a standard of quality that differs from country to country. Everyone in manufacturing knows this. But those of us in manufacturing take "risks" sometimes because we have to in order to save costs. You save a lot of money building in Japan, but you also have a higher number of defects, even with your own staff overseeing production.
Of course, with my company being based on Japan, we are seeing all this through Japanese eyes (along with my American eyes), with the intent of selling some "Made in China" products in Japan (with individual components from China, Taiwan, Japan, USA, and other countries). Most of you in the know will recognize that the Japanese consumer is perhaps the most demanding of any on the planet. (Yes, they will even complain about "lint" on a product.) "Quality" is a critical point to sell anything in Japan, which is why some companies even go so far as to pay through the nose to still build here in Japan (not just "assemble").
The fact remains that Macs in years past, made in Singapore, Fremont CA USA, Japan and Ireland were of better quality than Macs that have come in our recent years. The customer really couldn't care less where the product is made (unless perhaps the product is food). The buyer cares about quality. To argue that current Macintosh products are "good enough" is to deny that products of old were of higher quality and is little more than a defense of the status quo. No doubt Apple has reasons for building in China, just like my company does. But Apple also needs to work harder in China to ensure quality meets the same "premium" standards of quality its older products had, which is a critical point in light of the higher prices Apple lovers (myself included) pay for Apple merchandise.
WIth all this said, it would appear this problem affects the optional Radeon parts alone, not the Nvidia. Hence, it would make sense to examine how those Radeon parts are being assembled, where, by whom, and then take a look at how when and where they are installed in the iMacs. If the Nvidia cards are being built in China and working fine, then it makes logical sense that Apple could (if it wanted to) take steps to ensure that the Radeon cards worked equally well. But they will probably look at a software fix (firmware update) rather than the best choice of a hardware fix, simply because they don't want a product recall on their hands. Software is much cheaper to fix than hardware. It will be curious to see how Apple handles this in the end.
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with this.
Different companies have different standards. The big OEM Chinese manufacturers, in my experience, and in the experience of others I know who have their manufacturing done there paint a different picture from what you two are saying.
It's no different from anywhere else. All countries produce some fine goods, and trash. Japan is the same, as is the US.
Anytime a foreign manufacturer is used, inspections must be done. If you're dealing with a reputable manufacturer then you won't have problems.
If you demand your product be built to a price that leaves a company with little margin, then that's your own fault as well. And what happens then, happens anywhere.
China's manufacturing industry is younger than in industrial countries, and the government isn't yet aware that they need to impose the appropriate regulations, and so obviously, there will be more variability in QC among different companies.
But, as I said, there more than a few are manufacturing products of the highest quality.
And as far as your "facts" about Mac quality from different countries goes, well, they aren't facts at all. They're just your opinion.
And as far as your "facts" about Mac quality from different countries goes, well, they aren't facts at all. They're just your opinion.
It would appear that one now needs to debate the precise definition of "a fact." I won't tackle that one, but I will say that they are not merely "just my opinion" is your jab suggests. They are my "15 years of experience living and manufacturing here in Asia." And it just so happens that another "experienced" individual here also has discovered, through first-hand experience, the same truths that I and many others have. No doubt others in manufacturing could also share their experiences, if they happenstanced across this thread.
You appear to be speaking from NYC using your book-knowledge and US media reports as the primary source of your information and opinions. I would therefore encourage you to live and manufacture here in Asia for about 3 years. That will offer some much needed perspective on manufacturing. I say this seriously, with no sarcasm or sinister jabs intended. I must say that living outside the USA for a number of years has opened my mind to many realities that I was unaware when I was living in the US and merely "traveling" outside it from time to time.
But to be honest with you, I wish the situation was very different. What heartache and money that would save my company! Indeed, I wish that my company could get the same level of manufacturing quality "at most any factory in China" as you can "at most any factory here in Japan." But that is not the case, even with extensive training of employees at the factory (although a lot of training is better than no training at all). Such should come as no surprise, however, as China is still very much a developing country with respect to Japan, and even with respect to Taiwan. That's why manufacturing there costs so much less! But again, to understand this fully you need to live here for a few years to "experience it." It's not about personal opinions. It's about "reality" and "first hand experience" in real life, in the world of manufacturing.
But as I said in the last part of my previous post (which, oddly, you seem to also disagree with), Apple needs to investigate the QC issues surrounding its Radeon card, determining the precise reason why the Radeon card alone is affected, and not the Nvidia parts. To "disagree" with this is basically to deny that any problem exists with the new Radeon card, which is rather silly as this AppleInsider article makes it abundantly clear there is a problem.
All of us here want great Mac products, especially in light of the modest premium we are paying versus "piece of junk" windoze boxes. Verbalizing one's desire for "higher quality" is not a crime, and I truly hope that Apple will address the issue properly -- if not but to keep the sue-happy "I've got too much free time on my hands" crazies from filing yet another frivilous lawsuit and dragging down my AAPL share price as a result.
Regardless, for a boutique and more costly product line, you expect longer and better support out of the box. I.e., a statement of intent by the manufacturer that they're so confident of their hardware that they'll give a longer warranty out of the box. The high price of AppleCare would actually make me think that the hardware is actually quite naff if I was a new buyer.
Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
OTOH, anyone in range of an Apple Store gets one on one, free tech support for life.
Getting back to the original point of this forum thread...
I received a 2.93Ghz iMac this week with the BTO option ATI 4850 card.
I experience the freezing when I ask the computer to perform GPU-intensive tasks, such as watching 1080p HD videos in Quicktime. The issue is repeatable.
I have gone through the normal trouble shooting steps - resetting the PRAM, repairing permissions, creating a new user account, etc., etc. No matter what, when the computer is under significant load, it freezes.
I called Apple phone support today and will be sent a replacement machine.
I suspect that the issue is heat related, but I really can't be sure. I have subsequently installed "Fan Control" for Intel iMacs to try and better keep things under control.
I am performing a Time Machine backup right now and getting ready for a new machine... I suspect that within the next week or two, Apple will issue a firmware update to address this issue, which will likely result in increased fan speeds moving forward.
A firmware and video driver updates are all that's needed. In the meantime users will suffer. Apple should offer to downgrade until the issue is resolved so they don't lose customers.
Getting back to the original point of this forum thread...
I received a 2.93Ghz iMac this week with the BTO option ATI 4850 card.
I experience the freezing when I ask the computer to perform GPU-intensive tasks, such as watching 1080p HD videos in Quicktime. The issue is repeatable.
I have gone through the normal trouble shooting steps - resetting the PRAM, repairing permissions, creating a new user account, etc., etc. No matter what, when the computer is under significant load, it freezes.
I called Apple phone support today and will be sent a replacement machine.
I suspect that the issue is heat related, but I really can't be sure. I have subsequently installed "Fan Control" for Intel iMacs to try and better keep things under control.
I am performing a Time Machine backup right now and getting ready for a new machine... I suspect that within the next week or two, Apple will issue a firmware update to address this issue, which will likely result in increased fan speeds moving forward.
I would be interested in hearing if Fan Control improves things, which would be pretty definitive evidence of a heat problem.
A firmware and video driver updates are all that's needed. In the meantime users will suffer. Apple should offer to downgrade until the issue is resolved so they don't lose customers.
Why downgrade, when people are still paying for something they aren't getting?
Even a FW update that underclocks the GPU, or lowers the voltage, speed of the RAM of the 4850, still doesn't completely solve the issue, even if it fixes the freezes; it just gimps the card, and might as well sell that GPU as a ATI 4800 or something.
And if the freezing is occuring under Windows and OSX, it doesn't quite sound like a driver issue. MSI sells a laptop with a 4850M in it too, and the vent for it fairly substantial, and it's closer to the CPU/GPU, and probably still runs fairly warm.
It's an issue of QC, either on Apple's or AMD's end, but just accepting a FW fix or a replacement from Apple is just sugarcoating the real problem, as it's just slapping a big band-aid on it, and maybe Apple can fix it Rev C or something, or come up with a new design altogether (and by then, it's a get Rev A or wait for Rev B question).
It would appear that one now needs to debate the precise definition of "a fact." I won't tackle that one, but I will say that they are not merely "just my opinion" is your jab suggests. They are my "15 years of experience living and manufacturing here in Asia." And it just so happens that another "experienced" individual here also has discovered, through first-hand experience, the same truths that I and many others have. No doubt others in manufacturing could also share their experiences, if they happenstanced across this thread.
You appear to be speaking from NYC using your book-knowledge and US media reports as the primary source of your information and opinions. I would therefore encourage you to live and manufacture here in Asia for about 3 years. That will offer some much needed perspective on manufacturing. I say this seriously, with no sarcasm or sinister jabs intended. I must say that living outside the USA for a number of years has opened my mind to many realities that I was unaware when I was living in the US and merely "traveling" outside it from time to time.
But to be honest with you, I wish the situation was very different. What heartache and money that would save my company! Indeed, I wish that my company could get the same level of manufacturing quality "at most any factory in China" as you can "at most any factory here in Japan." But that is not the case, even with extensive training of employees at the factory (although a lot of training is better than no training at all). Such should come as no surprise, however, as China is still very much a developing country with respect to Japan, and even with respect to Taiwan. That's why manufacturing there costs so much less! But again, to understand this fully you need to live here for a few years to "experience it." It's not about personal opinions. It's about "reality" and "first hand experience" in real life, in the world of manufacturing.
But as I said in the last part of my previous post (which, oddly, you seem to also disagree with), Apple needs to investigate the QC issues surrounding its Radeon card, determining the precise reason why the Radeon card alone is affected, and not the Nvidia parts. To "disagree" with this is basically to deny that any problem exists with the new Radeon card, which is rather silly as this AppleInsider article makes it abundantly clear there is a problem.
All of us here want great Mac products, especially in light of the modest premium we are paying versus "piece of junk" windoze boxes. Verbalizing one's desire for "higher quality" is not a crime, and I truly hope that Apple will address the issue properly -- if not but to keep the sue-happy "I've got too much free time on my hands" crazies from filing yet another frivilous lawsuit and dragging down my AAPL share price as a result.
No, my experience also comes from manufacturing, and from acquaintances who have companies who manufacture in China. I don't have to live nearby to know this. You would know this if you carefully read my posts.
Comments
Neither of us are "wrong" Einstein. My experience dealing with Chinese suppliers is just different than yours. That does not mean that your opinion is gospel to all us villagers.
My blanket blame of China in its entirety was not written well and I could have explained it better. Of course, there are always exceptions to the rule. I know very well that China does make high-end products that rival what other very well-developed countries can manufacture.
However, I firmly believe that given the opportunity, even those manufacturers will skimp on quality if they could get away with it. If not by them directly, then by another sub-supplier. Responsibility must be done by the company (in this case Apple) to make sure all components that go into their machines meets quality specs. However, this is a daunting task considering the millions of components that get used each year.
My company deals with directly with Chinese suppliers overseas. I could write a book detailing how they try to skimp on quality that we pay for because we can't provide constant on-site supervision. Ridiculous sometimes.
I don't believe I am being prejudiced simply because I state a vocal opinion of questionable business practices. As a people, I have high respect for the Chinese populace and their culture. So if you're implying I might have a racial issue, it really is a direction you don't want to go.
Don't be a smartass!
I said that you were blaming the entire manufacturing industry, and you were. No one argues that everything coming out of China, or anywhere for that matter is great quality. But to say that everything coming out is poor quality is just as wrong. and you were certainly saying that.
And, no, I don't mean racial prejudice. I mean country prejudice.
Yeah, I'm actually in business right now...
Then you should understand what I'm saying, assuming you are a manufacturer yourself.
Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!
So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....
What happened, are they fumigating under your bridge?
You get 90 days plus one year. Anything beyond that is for-pay.
If you've ever owned a Mac or spent any appreciable time actually learning about what you're trolling, you'd know this.
Ya 3 months support! You want a full year or more? Its called Applecare! You got to pay for that SUPPORT!!!
So you can have a year support from Dell or HP at an okay level or
go for Apple's better service... BUT YOU NEED TO PAY FOR IT! IT ain't free....
Apple's warranty on computers is for a full year. There is free telephone support for only the first 90 days, but you can take it into an Apple Store or send it to Apple anytime within the first year.
Maybe not but some used to be built in the US. Hell even some Dell computers are built in the US today.
Assembled. The components are shipped from OEMS in Taiwan like everybody else.
My experience dealing with Chinese suppliers... My company deals with directly with Chinese suppliers overseas. I could write a book detailing how they try to skimp on quality that we pay for because we can't provide constant on-site supervision. Ridiculous sometimes.
Don't be a smartass! to say that everything coming out is poor quality is just as wrong. and you were certainly saying that. country prejudice.
There are some harsh words coming from New York City, from an individual who apparently has zero experience manufacturing here in Asia, more less living here in Asia and dealing with factories in Taiwan and China on a daily basis. It's not a racial issue or "country prejudice." It's a manufacturing reality. Any knee-jerk responses here about "race" are ridiculous. (Personally, I don't believe in "race." There's one race on this planet -- the human race.)
Nevertheless, "manufacturing" comments made by sflocal were valid and reflect what I myself, based here in Asia, manufacturing in China and Taiwan, see continually. If we do not have our Japanese staff at the factory in Taiwan or China, a select number of our more electronically complex products do not get built with "acceptable quality." The factories we choose to build in are largely irrelevant to quality. There is a standard of quality that differs from country to country. Everyone in manufacturing knows this. But those of us in manufacturing take "risks" sometimes because we have to in order to save costs. You save a lot of money building in Japan, but you also have a higher number of defects, even with your own staff overseeing production.
Of course, with my company being based on Japan, we are seeing all this through Japanese eyes (along with my American eyes), with the intent of selling some "Made in China" products in Japan (with individual components from China, Taiwan, Japan, USA, and other countries). Most of you in the know will recognize that the Japanese consumer is perhaps the most demanding of any on the planet. (Yes, they will even complain about "lint" on a product.) "Quality" is a critical point to sell anything in Japan, which is why some companies even go so far as to pay through the nose to still build here in Japan (not just "assemble").
The fact remains that Macs in years past, made in Singapore, Fremont CA USA, Japan and Ireland were of better quality than Macs that have come in our recent years. The customer really couldn't care less where the product is made (unless perhaps the product is food). The buyer cares about quality. To argue that current Macintosh products are "good enough" is to deny that products of old were of higher quality and is little more than a defense of the status quo. No doubt Apple has reasons for building in China, just like my company does. But Apple also needs to work harder in China to ensure quality meets the same "premium" standards of quality its older products had, which is a critical point in light of the higher prices Apple lovers (myself included) pay for Apple merchandise.
WIth all this said, it would appear this problem affects the optional Radeon parts alone, not the Nvidia. Hence, it would make sense to examine how those Radeon parts are being assembled, where, by whom, and then take a look at how when and where they are installed in the iMacs. If the Nvidia cards are being built in China and working fine, then it makes logical sense that Apple could (if it wanted to) take steps to ensure that the Radeon cards worked equally well. But they will probably look at a software fix (firmware update) rather than the best choice of a hardware fix, simply because they don't want a product recall on their hands. Software is much cheaper to fix than hardware. It will be curious to see how Apple handles this in the end.
There are some harsh words coming from New York City, from an individual who apparently has zero experience manufacturing here in Asia, more less living here in Asia and dealing with factories in Taiwan and China on a daily basis. It's not a racial issue or "country prejudice." It's a manufacturing reality. Any knee-jerk responses here about "race" are ridiculous. (Personally, I don't believe in "race." There's one race on this planet -- the human race.)
Nevertheless, "manufacturing" comments made by sflocal were valid and reflect what I myself, based here in Asia, manufacturing in China and Taiwan, see continually. If we do not have our Japanese staff at the factory in Taiwan or China, a select number of our more electronically complex products do not get built with "acceptable quality." The factories we choose to build in are largely irrelevant to quality. There is a standard of quality that differs from country to country. Everyone in manufacturing knows this. But those of us in manufacturing take "risks" sometimes because we have to in order to save costs. You save a lot of money building in Japan, but you also have a higher number of defects, even with your own staff overseeing production.
Of course, with my company being based on Japan, we are seeing all this through Japanese eyes (along with my American eyes), with the intent of selling some "Made in China" products in Japan (with individual components from China, Taiwan, Japan, USA, and other countries). Most of you in the know will recognize that the Japanese consumer is perhaps the most demanding of any on the planet. (Yes, they will even complain about "lint" on a product.) "Quality" is a critical point to sell anything in Japan, which is why some companies even go so far as to pay through the nose to still build here in Japan (not just "assemble").
The fact remains that Macs in years past, made in Singapore, Fremont CA USA, Japan and Ireland were of better quality than Macs that have come in our recent years. The customer really couldn't care less where the product is made (unless perhaps the product is food). The buyer cares about quality. To argue that current Macintosh products are "good enough" is to deny that products of old were of higher quality and is little more than a defense of the status quo. No doubt Apple has reasons for building in China, just like my company does. But Apple also needs to work harder in China to ensure quality meets the same "premium" standards of quality its older products had, which is a critical point in light of the higher prices Apple lovers (myself included) pay for Apple merchandise.
WIth all this said, it would appear this problem affects the optional Radeon parts alone, not the Nvidia. Hence, it would make sense to examine how those Radeon parts are being assembled, where, by whom, and then take a look at how when and where they are installed in the iMacs. If the Nvidia cards are being built in China and working fine, then it makes logical sense that Apple could (if it wanted to) take steps to ensure that the Radeon cards worked equally well. But they will probably look at a software fix (firmware update) rather than the best choice of a hardware fix, simply because they don't want a product recall on their hands. Software is much cheaper to fix than hardware. It will be curious to see how Apple handles this in the end.
I'm sorry, but I just don't agree with this.
Different companies have different standards. The big OEM Chinese manufacturers, in my experience, and in the experience of others I know who have their manufacturing done there paint a different picture from what you two are saying.
It's no different from anywhere else. All countries produce some fine goods, and trash. Japan is the same, as is the US.
Anytime a foreign manufacturer is used, inspections must be done. If you're dealing with a reputable manufacturer then you won't have problems.
If you demand your product be built to a price that leaves a company with little margin, then that's your own fault as well. And what happens then, happens anywhere.
China's manufacturing industry is younger than in industrial countries, and the government isn't yet aware that they need to impose the appropriate regulations, and so obviously, there will be more variability in QC among different companies.
But, as I said, there more than a few are manufacturing products of the highest quality.
And as far as your "facts" about Mac quality from different countries goes, well, they aren't facts at all. They're just your opinion.
I'm not coming from an Apple Fanboy perspective though.
And as far as your "facts" about Mac quality from different countries goes, well, they aren't facts at all. They're just your opinion.
It would appear that one now needs to debate the precise definition of "a fact." I won't tackle that one, but I will say that they are not merely "just my opinion" is your jab suggests. They are my "15 years of experience living and manufacturing here in Asia." And it just so happens that another "experienced" individual here also has discovered, through first-hand experience, the same truths that I and many others have. No doubt others in manufacturing could also share their experiences, if they happenstanced across this thread.
You appear to be speaking from NYC using your book-knowledge and US media reports as the primary source of your information and opinions. I would therefore encourage you to live and manufacture here in Asia for about 3 years. That will offer some much needed perspective on manufacturing. I say this seriously, with no sarcasm or sinister jabs intended. I must say that living outside the USA for a number of years has opened my mind to many realities that I was unaware when I was living in the US and merely "traveling" outside it from time to time.
But to be honest with you, I wish the situation was very different. What heartache and money that would save my company! Indeed, I wish that my company could get the same level of manufacturing quality "at most any factory in China" as you can "at most any factory here in Japan." But that is not the case, even with extensive training of employees at the factory (although a lot of training is better than no training at all). Such should come as no surprise, however, as China is still very much a developing country with respect to Japan, and even with respect to Taiwan. That's why manufacturing there costs so much less! But again, to understand this fully you need to live here for a few years to "experience it." It's not about personal opinions. It's about "reality" and "first hand experience" in real life, in the world of manufacturing.
But as I said in the last part of my previous post (which, oddly, you seem to also disagree with), Apple needs to investigate the QC issues surrounding its Radeon card, determining the precise reason why the Radeon card alone is affected, and not the Nvidia parts. To "disagree" with this is basically to deny that any problem exists with the new Radeon card, which is rather silly as this AppleInsider article makes it abundantly clear there is a problem.
All of us here want great Mac products, especially in light of the modest premium we are paying versus "piece of junk" windoze boxes. Verbalizing one's desire for "higher quality" is not a crime, and I truly hope that Apple will address the issue properly -- if not but to keep the sue-happy "I've got too much free time on my hands" crazies from filing yet another frivilous lawsuit and dragging down my AAPL share price as a result.
I thought Apple's warranty was 1 year by default.
Regardless, for a boutique and more costly product line, you expect longer and better support out of the box. I.e., a statement of intent by the manufacturer that they're so confident of their hardware that they'll give a longer warranty out of the box. The high price of AppleCare would actually make me think that the hardware is actually quite naff if I was a new buyer.
Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
Yes it is 1 year but tech support is not.
So after 91 days if you call Dell or HP you got support still for up to 365 days. With Apple you will need to purchase Applecare if you want support after 91 days.
OTOH, anyone in range of an Apple Store gets one on one, free tech support for life.
I received a 2.93Ghz iMac this week with the BTO option ATI 4850 card.
I experience the freezing when I ask the computer to perform GPU-intensive tasks, such as watching 1080p HD videos in Quicktime. The issue is repeatable.
I have gone through the normal trouble shooting steps - resetting the PRAM, repairing permissions, creating a new user account, etc., etc. No matter what, when the computer is under significant load, it freezes.
I called Apple phone support today and will be sent a replacement machine.
I suspect that the issue is heat related, but I really can't be sure. I have subsequently installed "Fan Control" for Intel iMacs to try and better keep things under control.
I am performing a Time Machine backup right now and getting ready for a new machine... I suspect that within the next week or two, Apple will issue a firmware update to address this issue, which will likely result in increased fan speeds moving forward.
Getting back to the original point of this forum thread...
I received a 2.93Ghz iMac this week with the BTO option ATI 4850 card.
I experience the freezing when I ask the computer to perform GPU-intensive tasks, such as watching 1080p HD videos in Quicktime. The issue is repeatable.
I have gone through the normal trouble shooting steps - resetting the PRAM, repairing permissions, creating a new user account, etc., etc. No matter what, when the computer is under significant load, it freezes.
I called Apple phone support today and will be sent a replacement machine.
I suspect that the issue is heat related, but I really can't be sure. I have subsequently installed "Fan Control" for Intel iMacs to try and better keep things under control.
I am performing a Time Machine backup right now and getting ready for a new machine... I suspect that within the next week or two, Apple will issue a firmware update to address this issue, which will likely result in increased fan speeds moving forward.
I would be interested in hearing if Fan Control improves things, which would be pretty definitive evidence of a heat problem.
OTOH, anyone in range of an Apple Store gets one on one, free tech support for life.
I LOL I love how he keeps trying . . .
A firmware and video driver updates are all that's needed. In the meantime users will suffer. Apple should offer to downgrade until the issue is resolved so they don't lose customers.
Why downgrade, when people are still paying for something they aren't getting?
Even a FW update that underclocks the GPU, or lowers the voltage, speed of the RAM of the 4850, still doesn't completely solve the issue, even if it fixes the freezes; it just gimps the card, and might as well sell that GPU as a ATI 4800 or something.
And if the freezing is occuring under Windows and OSX, it doesn't quite sound like a driver issue. MSI sells a laptop with a 4850M in it too, and the vent for it fairly substantial, and it's closer to the CPU/GPU, and probably still runs fairly warm.
It's an issue of QC, either on Apple's or AMD's end, but just accepting a FW fix or a replacement from Apple is just sugarcoating the real problem, as it's just slapping a big band-aid on it, and maybe Apple can fix it Rev C or something, or come up with a new design altogether (and by then, it's a get Rev A or wait for Rev B question).
It would appear that one now needs to debate the precise definition of "a fact." I won't tackle that one, but I will say that they are not merely "just my opinion" is your jab suggests. They are my "15 years of experience living and manufacturing here in Asia." And it just so happens that another "experienced" individual here also has discovered, through first-hand experience, the same truths that I and many others have. No doubt others in manufacturing could also share their experiences, if they happenstanced across this thread.
You appear to be speaking from NYC using your book-knowledge and US media reports as the primary source of your information and opinions. I would therefore encourage you to live and manufacture here in Asia for about 3 years. That will offer some much needed perspective on manufacturing. I say this seriously, with no sarcasm or sinister jabs intended. I must say that living outside the USA for a number of years has opened my mind to many realities that I was unaware when I was living in the US and merely "traveling" outside it from time to time.
But to be honest with you, I wish the situation was very different. What heartache and money that would save my company! Indeed, I wish that my company could get the same level of manufacturing quality "at most any factory in China" as you can "at most any factory here in Japan." But that is not the case, even with extensive training of employees at the factory (although a lot of training is better than no training at all). Such should come as no surprise, however, as China is still very much a developing country with respect to Japan, and even with respect to Taiwan. That's why manufacturing there costs so much less! But again, to understand this fully you need to live here for a few years to "experience it." It's not about personal opinions. It's about "reality" and "first hand experience" in real life, in the world of manufacturing.
But as I said in the last part of my previous post (which, oddly, you seem to also disagree with), Apple needs to investigate the QC issues surrounding its Radeon card, determining the precise reason why the Radeon card alone is affected, and not the Nvidia parts. To "disagree" with this is basically to deny that any problem exists with the new Radeon card, which is rather silly as this AppleInsider article makes it abundantly clear there is a problem.
All of us here want great Mac products, especially in light of the modest premium we are paying versus "piece of junk" windoze boxes. Verbalizing one's desire for "higher quality" is not a crime, and I truly hope that Apple will address the issue properly -- if not but to keep the sue-happy "I've got too much free time on my hands" crazies from filing yet another frivilous lawsuit and dragging down my AAPL share price as a result.
No, my experience also comes from manufacturing, and from acquaintances who have companies who manufacture in China. I don't have to live nearby to know this. You would know this if you carefully read my posts.
You get 90 days plus one year. Anything beyond that is for-pay.
And that's exactly what he said- what's your point? You want support after 90 days you have to pay.
And that's exactly what he said- what's your point? You want service after 90 days you have to pay.
There's a difference between "support" and "service."