If I recall correctly, some of the early builds of OS X actually had Copy and Paste working with files.
I personally don't care for it, and the only time I think it's really useful is when, back in the old days, you had an Explorer window open, and it would take up your screen and only show one lcoation at a time so you couldn't easily drag and drop to your destination.
Firstly, I still don't understand why you nail me by saying that the paste feature to move a file is designwise incorrect since the file is not placed on the clipboard.
Now, apple already has the copy feature and obviously that does not place the contents of the file on the clipboard. I believe you will not nail Apple by saying the copy feature is incorrect as they have done so already.
Also, how did the discussion go on to moving/copying over networks? I didn't mean this.
lol, even during this whole disculssion I didn't realize that X still has copy and paste of files implemented! Though the commands change depending on what is selected. Though the Paste says 'Paste item' even if there are multiple items copied.
And copying something else will overright the clipboard, and pasting the files elsewhere just pastes the file names as it always did.
as mentioned previously: resizable windows from and 'edge' (3 pixel proximity will do)
and
more keyboard shortcuts! (preferably i'd like to have the option of controlling my laptop without having to plug in a mouse or use the trackpad at all)
<strong>Firstly, I still don't understand why you nail me by saying that the paste feature to move a file is designwise incorrect since the file is not placed on the clipboard.
Now, apple already has the copy feature and obviously that does not place the contents of the file on the clipboard. I believe you will not nail Apple by saying the copy feature is incorrect as they have done so already.
Also, how did the discussion go on to moving/copying over networks? I didn't mean this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not nailing you, I'm nailing the copying/cutting/pastig of files as desired by some here and/or as currently implemented.
I still insist that it's inconsistent, therefore confusing with every other occurence of copying and pasting throughout the system, especially as you point out, it doesn't involve the clipboard. It should be treated a specific behavior of the Finder, given its own shortcuts, menu items, probably under the File menu instead of the Edit menu. So yes, Apple IMHO is wrong in this, so maybe I am "nailing" them.
Well, it is a discussion of Windows features we'd like in OS X, so the topic may stray a bit even if out of this particular sub-thread.
[edit: I keep typing "widows" instead of "Windows"]
THEMES ! (yes, XP has them. You can change the Fisher Price theme in the old-and-trusted WinDull theme).
Two will do. Keep Aqua, but at least build a 'pro' theme. More simple, strict, less color. And yes: more stylish. Aqua is too much in your face (and in the way).
John Doe likes aqua, so does most people (Joe Sixpack buys Windows, however), but please give us a choice.
The Graphite look already in X you mean ? It's better, but not enough. Less stripes and 3D'isms will do, I think. Something between Graphite and SGI's IRIX maybe ...?
Why when I am in Safari, for example, and I click on an AIM window, does it not bring the WHOLE application to the front? Why can I close background windows in one click? This is like Windows. No sense of context. The OS is less App based. This sucks because on my tiny iBook (soon to be MiTi PB12") monitor I am cramped for space and can usually just see the edge of a window of an app I want to switch to. The Dock is slower than clicking that window, yet I can't just click that window, if I want the WHOLE dang app to come up.
This is stupid. At the least there should be a preference for this behavior.
I much prefer this because now I can move among applications more easily. The idea is that your work comes first, the aps are just tools to use depending o the context. You can tell what app you're in by the context: menubar, palettes, inspectors, etc.
I would like to see a "My Network Places" type thing in Mac OS X...except not named "My." Windows names everything "My" and its damned patronizing.
I would also like to see "resize window from everywhere."
I don't like cluttered contextual menus or "cut/paste" to move a file. In Windows it's damn hard to tell whether dragging/dropping a file will move a file, copy a file, or just make a shortcut to that file. In the Mac, it's always move within the same volume, copy if it's to another volume.
I'd OS X to lose it's windows-like habit of grouping close and resize widgets together. That's just bad UI, and how it got into Mac OS X is beyond me.
I'd also like the Dock to have some differentiation between shortcuts and working programs, or to go away completely. I'd like universal keyboard shortcuts for cycling through individual windows on an app, and through open apps.
I'd like the menu bar for each app to be open on the monitor where the app resides (for multiple monitor setups) instead of being tied to the 'main monitor'.
I'd like to see the Applications menu from Mac OS 9 return as well, and "both arrows on both sides" as a default option on scrollbars. SIGH...I have a long list, don't I?
<strong>I would like to see a "My Network Places" type thing in Mac OS X...except not named "My." Windows names everything "My" and its damned patronizing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is what /Network is *supposed* to be, more or less. Right now MacOS X is in flux from NetInfo to Rendevous/LDAP/SLP, but I expect this will be filled out within the next few months.
[quote]<strong>I would also like to see "resize window from everywhere."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not something that's going to happen without adding window borders. 1) Magic invisible areas in your UI are about the biggest no-no you can have. No visible item, then no action. Period. 2) You can't have a magic invisible resize widget in the same space as a scroll bar. When a user clicks, do they want to resize? Move the scroll bar?
And, since the borderless windows seems to be a firmly entrenched item in Aqua (and one I *like*), I don't see this happening.
[quote]<strong>I don't like cluttered contextual menus or "cut/paste" to move a file. In Windows it's damn hard to tell whether dragging/dropping a file will move a file, copy a file, or just make a shortcut to that file. In the Mac, it's always move within the same volume, copy if it's to another volume.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unless you use key modifiers. I can never remember which keys do which, but since I can hit them quickly in the middle of a drag and have the cursor change accordingly, it's very quick and handy, with instant feedback.
[quote]<strong>I'd OS X to lose it's windows-like habit of grouping close and resize widgets together. That's just bad UI, and how it got into Mac OS X is beyond me.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is it bad? Serious question. Is there UI research to back this up, like there is for having the menu bar on an edge, and not in each window?
[quote]<strong>I'd also like the Dock to have some differentiation between shortcuts and working programs, or to go away completely. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see the problem here... the Dock holds 'access points' for apps. Some are ones you add, and some are ones that are added automatically when you start an app. (You need a way to get to it, obviously.) It removes the necessity for several redundant app access methods like we had in OS 9.
[quote]<strong>I'd like universal keyboard shortcuts for cycling through individual windows on an app, and through open apps.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Windows: Cmd-~
Apps: Cmd-Tab
Also, Cmd-Tab doesn't just go to the next app, it goes to your other most recently used app, so you can switch between two apps back and forth quickly. If you want to cycle further, just keep hitting Tab.
[quote]<strong>I'd like the menu bar for each app to be open on the monitor where the app resides (for multiple monitor setups) instead of being tied to the 'main monitor'.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Er... so you'd have multiple apps 'active' at once?
Better: Have the menu bar be on the screen with the current active window. (Problem: Have to reserve the menu bar area on each screen for placement of the menu when needed. Or, replicate the same menu bar on all screens... which would just be strange.)
[quote]<strong>I'd like to see the Applications menu from Mac OS 9 return as well, and "both arrows on both sides" as a default option on scrollbars. SIGH...I have a long list, don't I?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really, just redundant with a dozen other threads over the past two years...
<strong>3) Interactive menus, like the Start menu or IE's Favorites, where you can click, drag, delete, sort, get info, etc., on items in the menu.
I find it very convenient, for instance, if I click on Favorites to go to one bookmark, and notice an old bookmark that I'd like to get rid of, I can do it right then and there by interacting with the menu itself rather than aborting the menu and going into a separate window/dialog to edit my bookmarks.
5) Ability to point at a file and see a tooltip pop up with basic file info.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes. I miss number 3 and would like to see number 5.
<strong>I agree with you on the scrollbars, at least.</strong><hr></blockquote>...which is why Apple did make it an option and it is available through the terminal or TinkerTool.
<strong>...which is why Apple did make it an option and it is available through the terminal or TinkerTool. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Has it started working more or less universally? Last time I played with it (10.1.x) it popped up in some apps, wasn't there in others, and did *BIZARRE* things in some. Decided to forego the headaches until it settled down.
(BTW, in case anyone is curious, the trick is to use, in the Terminal: defaults writes "Apple Global Domain" AppleScrollBarVariant "DoubleBoth" You may need to sudo it, IIRC.)
One thing I would like that I completely forgot about, and I don't know if it's been said, is the "Send To" feature Windows Explorer has.
What it is for those not in the know is on any file or folder you can bring up the context menu and send the file or folder to any application. Right now OS X only has this for files. It would be nice to have this for folders too as some apps can actually accept folders as an item to process. Like Graphic Converter will take the folder and open a Browser Window to the location.
<strong>Has it started working more or less universally?</strong><hr></blockquote>For as long as I can recall (since Public Beta) the double both-ends option has worked flawlessly for me. I have had it set as my default since... well, since the public beta. The only cases I can recall having problems are in the scrollable areas that are smaller than the height of the actual four arrows and in the very rare apps like Melody Assistant or Cinema 4D that use custom widgets for scrolling altogether.
<strong>I can understand ditching the open dialog, but how would you be able to ditch the save dialog? It's one thing if your work is saved as you go, but if you change your mind, you're kind of screwed, aren't you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Acorn (RISC OS) did this really well. You chose save and an icon for the (as yet unsaved) document appeared in a floating window. You entered a name in a field underneath then dragged it to wherever you wanted in the finder.
On a slightly differant note (not file management and the like), I like being able to browse through a folder of images as thumbnails, or watching a movie without a seperate viewer app (quicktime OS integration maybe). I know that's what iPhoto is for, at least for images, but I'd like to be able to browse any folder of images as thumbnails, such as for web sites I'm working on.
As for right-clickable menus, yes. Absolutely. Especially for things like the bookmark menu where you can delete a bookmark directly from the menu.
Comments
I personally don't care for it, and the only time I think it's really useful is when, back in the old days, you had an Explorer window open, and it would take up your screen and only show one lcoation at a time so you couldn't easily drag and drop to your destination.
Firstly, I still don't understand why you nail me by saying that the paste feature to move a file is designwise incorrect since the file is not placed on the clipboard.
Now, apple already has the copy feature and obviously that does not place the contents of the file on the clipboard. I believe you will not nail Apple by saying the copy feature is incorrect as they have done so already.
Also, how did the discussion go on to moving/copying over networks? I didn't mean this.
Anyway,
Tell me what you think.
And copying something else will overright the clipboard, and pasting the files elsewhere just pastes the file names as it always did.
and
more keyboard shortcuts! (preferably i'd like to have the option of controlling my laptop without having to plug in a mouse or use the trackpad at all)
<strong>Firstly, I still don't understand why you nail me by saying that the paste feature to move a file is designwise incorrect since the file is not placed on the clipboard.
Now, apple already has the copy feature and obviously that does not place the contents of the file on the clipboard. I believe you will not nail Apple by saying the copy feature is incorrect as they have done so already.
Also, how did the discussion go on to moving/copying over networks? I didn't mean this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm not nailing you, I'm nailing the copying/cutting/pastig of files as desired by some here and/or as currently implemented.
I still insist that it's inconsistent, therefore confusing with every other occurence of copying and pasting throughout the system, especially as you point out, it doesn't involve the clipboard. It should be treated a specific behavior of the Finder, given its own shortcuts, menu items, probably under the File menu instead of the Edit menu. So yes, Apple IMHO is wrong in this, so maybe I am "nailing" them.
Well, it is a discussion of Windows features we'd like in OS X, so the topic may stray a bit even if out of this particular sub-thread.
[edit: I keep typing "widows" instead of "Windows"]
[ 01-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
Two will do. Keep Aqua, but at least build a 'pro' theme. More simple, strict, less color. And yes: more stylish. Aqua is too much in your face (and in the way).
John Doe likes aqua, so does most people (Joe Sixpack buys Windows, however), but please give us a choice.
<strong>like this ?
The Graphite look already in X you mean ? It's better, but not enough. Less stripes and 3D'isms will do, I think. Something between Graphite and SGI's IRIX maybe ...?
This is stupid. At the least there should be a preference for this behavior.
And no menu blinking!!!
<strong>This is like Windows. No sense of context. The OS is less App based.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It isn't like Windows, it is a document-centric OS. This is a very deliberate and critical move they made with OS X:
<a href="http://developer.apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html#macOSXDoesntUseMDI"; target="_blank">linky</a>
[edit]<a href="http://developer.apple.com/techpubs/macosx/Essentials/AquaHIGuidelines/AHIGWindows/index.html"; target="_blank">another linky</a>
I much prefer this because now I can move among applications more easily. The idea is that your work comes first, the aps are just tools to use depending o the context. You can tell what app you're in by the context: menubar, palettes, inspectors, etc.
[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
I would also like to see "resize window from everywhere."
I don't like cluttered contextual menus or "cut/paste" to move a file. In Windows it's damn hard to tell whether dragging/dropping a file will move a file, copy a file, or just make a shortcut to that file. In the Mac, it's always move within the same volume, copy if it's to another volume.
I'd OS X to lose it's windows-like habit of grouping close and resize widgets together. That's just bad UI, and how it got into Mac OS X is beyond me.
I'd also like the Dock to have some differentiation between shortcuts and working programs, or to go away completely. I'd like universal keyboard shortcuts for cycling through individual windows on an app, and through open apps.
I'd like the menu bar for each app to be open on the monitor where the app resides (for multiple monitor setups) instead of being tied to the 'main monitor'.
I'd like to see the Applications menu from Mac OS 9 return as well, and "both arrows on both sides" as a default option on scrollbars. SIGH...I have a long list, don't I?
<strong>I would like to see a "My Network Places" type thing in Mac OS X...except not named "My." Windows names everything "My" and its damned patronizing.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is what /Network is *supposed* to be, more or less. Right now MacOS X is in flux from NetInfo to Rendevous/LDAP/SLP, but I expect this will be filled out within the next few months.
[quote]<strong>I would also like to see "resize window from everywhere."
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not something that's going to happen without adding window borders. 1) Magic invisible areas in your UI are about the biggest no-no you can have. No visible item, then no action. Period. 2) You can't have a magic invisible resize widget in the same space as a scroll bar. When a user clicks, do they want to resize? Move the scroll bar?
And, since the borderless windows seems to be a firmly entrenched item in Aqua (and one I *like*), I don't see this happening.
[quote]<strong>I don't like cluttered contextual menus or "cut/paste" to move a file. In Windows it's damn hard to tell whether dragging/dropping a file will move a file, copy a file, or just make a shortcut to that file. In the Mac, it's always move within the same volume, copy if it's to another volume.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Unless you use key modifiers.
[quote]<strong>I'd OS X to lose it's windows-like habit of grouping close and resize widgets together. That's just bad UI, and how it got into Mac OS X is beyond me.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Why is it bad? Serious question. Is there UI research to back this up, like there is for having the menu bar on an edge, and not in each window?
[quote]<strong>I'd also like the Dock to have some differentiation between shortcuts and working programs, or to go away completely. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see the problem here... the Dock holds 'access points' for apps. Some are ones you add, and some are ones that are added automatically when you start an app. (You need a way to get to it, obviously.) It removes the necessity for several redundant app access methods like we had in OS 9.
[quote]<strong>I'd like universal keyboard shortcuts for cycling through individual windows on an app, and through open apps.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Windows: Cmd-~
Apps: Cmd-Tab
Also, Cmd-Tab doesn't just go to the next app, it goes to your other most recently used app, so you can switch between two apps back and forth quickly. If you want to cycle further, just keep hitting Tab.
[quote]<strong>I'd like the menu bar for each app to be open on the monitor where the app resides (for multiple monitor setups) instead of being tied to the 'main monitor'.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Er... so you'd have multiple apps 'active' at once?
Better: Have the menu bar be on the screen with the current active window. (Problem: Have to reserve the menu bar area on each screen for placement of the menu when needed. Or, replicate the same menu bar on all screens... which would just be strange.)
[quote]<strong>I'd like to see the Applications menu from Mac OS 9 return as well, and "both arrows on both sides" as a default option on scrollbars. SIGH...I have a long list, don't I?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not really, just redundant with a dozen other threads over the past two years...
I agree with you on the scrollbars, at least.
[ 01-27-2003: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
<strong>3) Interactive menus, like the Start menu or IE's Favorites, where you can click, drag, delete, sort, get info, etc., on items in the menu.
I find it very convenient, for instance, if I click on Favorites to go to one bookmark, and notice an old bookmark that I'd like to get rid of, I can do it right then and there by interacting with the menu itself rather than aborting the menu and going into a separate window/dialog to edit my bookmarks.
5) Ability to point at a file and see a tooltip pop up with basic file info.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes. I miss number 3 and would like to see number 5.
<strong>I agree with you on the scrollbars, at least.</strong><hr></blockquote>...which is why Apple did make it an option and it is available through the terminal or TinkerTool.
<strong>...which is why Apple did make it an option and it is available through the terminal or TinkerTool.
Has it started working more or less universally? Last time I played with it (10.1.x) it popped up in some apps, wasn't there in others, and did *BIZARRE* things in some. Decided to forego the headaches until it settled down.
(BTW, in case anyone is curious, the trick is to use, in the Terminal: defaults writes "Apple Global Domain" AppleScrollBarVariant "DoubleBoth" You may need to sudo it, IIRC.)
[Edit: typo in command]
[ 01-29-2003: Message edited by: Kickaha ]</p>
What it is for those not in the know is on any file or folder you can bring up the context menu and send the file or folder to any application. Right now OS X only has this for files. It would be nice to have this for folders too as some apps can actually accept folders as an item to process. Like Graphic Converter will take the folder and open a Browser Window to the location.
<strong>Has it started working more or less universally?</strong><hr></blockquote>For as long as I can recall (since Public Beta) the double both-ends option has worked flawlessly for me. I have had it set as my default since... well, since the public beta.
<strong>I can understand ditching the open dialog, but how would you be able to ditch the save dialog? It's one thing if your work is saved as you go, but if you change your mind, you're kind of screwed, aren't you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The Acorn (RISC OS) did this really well. You chose save and an icon for the (as yet unsaved) document appeared in a floating window. You entered a name in a field underneath then dragged it to wherever you wanted in the finder.
Amorya
As for right-clickable menus, yes. Absolutely. Especially for things like the bookmark menu where you can delete a bookmark directly from the menu.