"The device is tighter and more physically beautiful than the iPod Touch "
He must be kidding, right? It is definitely bigger than an iPod touch, more massive and thicker, The design of the iPod touch is way better and slicker, come one, is your taste so miserable? This zune is desperately ugly. I mean this brick shape, those weird wedges, those huge screws on the top, that's awful. Compare with that
"and it's got a better UI, the main menu's scrolling so natural through the swipe gestures. There's a little note on the side, under the volume toggle?"Hello from Seattle." The power button is up top. "
I don't see anything that made it having a better UI than the Touch, what i see is basic rip-off of Apple's gestures implementation. You can scroll naturally on the Touch with the gestures, what's new here? Nothing, right, no one can say yes, there is simply nothing new.
What i also see on the Zune is an over use of animations with this text for the category (say photos) moving to the top and then zooming in and out like crazy as you navigate in the devise. You end up having few huge letters on the top of the screen and you don't know really why they are there. The interface itself seems very poorly effective, look at the interface of the music player, i can't find words to describe how poor it is: this huge text on the top showing Artists and Playlists, the interface of the player itself is ugly, i mean look at this white big arrow to come back one step backward, the name of Artists or anything else being written with this flashy white on a black background, etc, etc. Overall, the interface is quite ugly and poorly designed. So i can't believe that someone can claim that this thing has abetter UI than an iPod touch, that's crazy.
Also not that the home screen design is really not done to make it work with a ton of apps, so forget this idea of having a ton of apps to use.
"The home button is nice and prominent, a bar rather than a round button on the Touch. It's smaller. And the accelerometer is more swift in responding to repositioning; images rotate very fast"
Yes now i am sure, he is speaking non sense, how can this bar and why it is better than round button? He first says it is prominent and after he says it is smaller, so what? What i see is that this button looks awfully ugly. And oh the good sense would indicate that round button are better as they fit better the shape of the area of the finger that you use to press. Bar shaped button have not been a good way to do it, as you can ask 100 people, most of them will say that they feel irritation of pressing such shaped buttons because they naturally feel uncomfortableness for pressing something that does not feel good on their finger.
Concerning the accelerometer, i don't see your point, on my iPod touch, things are instantaneous.
So the bottom of the line is that this guy is getting exited for nothing, this Zune has no innovative feature, no real killer feature that makes it interesting. This is a plain re-implementation of what Apple did on the iPod touch 2 years ago, a basic boring rip-off of ideas as Microsoft seems unable to come up with its own.
Yup, another check box... Push? Active Sync (this is WinCE, not WinMo)
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and the app store is already in progress.
what the heck does "in progress" mean? Where's the SDK? How can something be "in progress" if there isn't a way for anyone to write supporting apps for it? Or do you mean they are just building an empty storefront?
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Look at this thing carefully
I'd love to - where can I buy it or at least hold it?
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it really has caught up and in some cases surpassed the iPod Touch.
Yup, on paper.
The problem is paper rarely equals reality. Let's let it ship, then we can declare with authority who has surpassed who (providing Apple's own updated Touch isn't out by the time this thing actually ships)
"Wow, that was fast," - says the camera guy as the photos open.
What did he expect, for it take 10 seconds to show the photos? It opened the same speed as a touch or I would guess any mp3 photo viewer.
The UI looks nice, I admit that, but outside of FM HD Radio (of which I personally have no use, FM radio stinks), this does nothing the iPod touch doesn't already. Actually it does a lot less than a touch - where are the fancy games, where are the apps, maps, etc.?? \
MSFT drones always want to throw up how MS OS phones had this and that before the iPhone, well the touch had all this 2 years ago, MS is late to the party.
Plus, Apple is going to update the touch later this year. This will be as much of a threat to the touch as the Zune was to the iPod. It will sell, because MS has their supporters and Apple haters, but not enough to make a dent in iPod touch sales, the touch has too much of a head start and offers more.
Ok, this doesn't look bad, but I don't see anything that makes it "better" than the touch. Plus, we haven't even seen the 3rd gen touch yet so...
I agree, not getting why people would say it is better when there are going to be obvious speed differences simply by way of it having newer hardware.
As far as accelerometer goes, I think the delay in flip on the iPhone might be in part to prevent accidental flipping. Had a camera once that had that design & would flip the photos for you, I turned it off because it was flipping them back & forth as I tried to review the pictures.
Microsoft may do well enough with this refresh, but it still isn't a game changer the way the iPhone & iPod touch were.
First I read the article, then I watched the video. I don't think the video illustrates what was quoted in the article.
OLED is awesome. Can't wait for it on iPod touch. But in the video, the Zune screen looked garish and cartoony. The interface, although probably not complete, looked clumsy and unpolished. Huge text? Unresponsive interface?
It looked like the next Microsoft Bob.
Can't wait for the Macworld review. I truly hope it's a nice leap for Microsoft. There is nothing wrong with a little competition.
I hope you are being sarcastic. If not, no, it hasn't caught up - not by a long shot. First, the device doesn't have any kind of operating system capable of supporting the richness you see with iPhone OS. Second, everything I am reading so far indicates that there will NOT be an app store for zune, and that anything available for it will likely be limited to games. Third, even if there is an app store, you need a good development environment and that means there needs to be an actual OS behind this thing, which there does not appear to be. Fourth, let's talk about mobile web: The web browser in development for Zune HD is a slimmed down and custom version of IE6. IE6! So, this 2010 time frame device will have a browser based on standards and technologies 9 years old. Fifth, OS3 for iPhone / iPod touch opens up abilities to create hardware that will interface with the device and any custom software also. Blood pressure monitors, glucose monitors, and anything you can even think of, and people will think of a LOT. Can Zune do that? Nope.
I think it's a nice looking device, and I like the OLED screen. But the gushing the press is doing about how this is some sort of iPod killer just amuses me. This thing has a LONG way to go before it can stack up against a touch.
Well, a thing like this is created for Windows mobile:
The point of this new Zune being announced now is to try and generate FUD. It's currently vaporware. The best they've got is a prototype, it's a brick, and it's certainly no iPod touch. But...
It does look like MS has improved the Zune enough to make it worth buying. It doesn't have to do everything iPods can do to make it a sufficient product in its own right. MS now has another "it's good enough" product and deep enough pockets that the project can lose money for years to come.
The potential dangers to Apple include: Zune HD's processing power. Apple historically under-configures all their hardware even when larger/faster components are readily available. MS knows this, and with the new Zune, they are likely to exploit it. OLED and 720p capabilities are also not to be underestimated. And MS will likely be able to make this thing play high quality games from the X-box family. They can easily "out game" Apple if the Zune HD hardware is up to it.
Comparisons? Well, we truly don't yet know what the new Zune can really do or not do. Based on the pictures, video, and assumed specs, I think it's pretty apparent it's nowhere close to the capabilities of the iPod touch. I have not seen it, so I can't say if the screen is better or not, and supposedly the 720p output requires some sort of dock otherwise it can't do it (does that mean a co-processor embedded in the dock?). I could, as could anyone, list pages upon pages of features available to iPod that this new Zune lacks. It seems that there are less than a half-dozen 'features' in the Zune HD that aren't found in the current iPod touch. It will be interesting to see what Apple introduces in a little while.
What can Apple do? Don't skimp on configuration. OLED screen. 720p output. WiFi sync. Add standard FM radio (not HD - it's useless). That's it. There would be no other compelling feature of the Zune HD to temp buyers away from the iPod (or iPhone).
How many times does the use have to repeat a gesture it didn't work the first time? At least 4 time, probably more. In two cases it's because the screen looks like its edge to edge with minimal bezel, but in fact the screen under the glass has an additional "margin." See when he swipes the photo and nothing happens? His finger is on the glass, but only partially on the screen, so it didn't register. That would be like if there were a half inch margin on all edges of your MacBook trackpad that just didn't work. How annoying would that me? You'd learn to avoid those dead spots, but subconsciously you'd be "wasting brain cycles" to remember to stay in the middle of the pad. Same thing with this device. It looks pretty because the glass goes edge to edge, but it is a design defect since some parts of the screen work differently (not at all) than others.
And how is that little bar of a button better than a nice round button? It's obvious to me that MS decided that they didn't want to be seen as copying too much, so the implemented an inferior home button and call it an improvement.
As others have said, "yawn." Competition is good, but this thing doesn't give me any Zune envy.
While it's fun to point and laugh at MS products, it's good that they put something good out once in awhile. I eagerly await Apple's answer to this challenger.
You're joking, right?! You don't think Apple has ANYTHING in it's lineup that is just as good or better than the Zune HD?!
Maybe you haven't heard of the iphone and the ipod touch...
Show me how the Zune Marketplace is gaining subscribers when Microsoft is not even selling Zunes.
The Zune isn't selling? Zune passed a couple million sold early last year. I don't know what the current sales numbers are, but they're pretty close to what the iPod was until last 2004, 3 years after it launched. Don't forget the iPod itself wasn't an overnight success. It took more than 3 years for it to finally start selling decent.
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Saying that the price of cd's is the same as buying on the itunes store is an outright lie. I don't know what you're talking about but I remeber paying $15 to $20 before iTunes.
Well, then you were buying your music at the wrong places. I haven't paid more than $13 for a CD since the early 90s. Thats while buying music at stores like Virgin as well. Even the "Digipaks" and CDs packed with DVDs haven't cost me more than $13. It's all about knowing where to buy and when to buy.
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The problem that you don't mention is that if you're not consistently trying new music, you are losing money while not owning anything. Most people beyond a certain age come to a point where they settle into the music they like or grew up with and no longer really listen to music. Under Zune Marketplace, by the time you hit 50 or 60, you will own nothing and still have to constantly pay a certain amount/month.
Well, thats their loss if they stop exploring new music.
I also guess you missed the part where the Zune Pass lets you keep 10 songs per month. So for $15 a month, Zune Pass lets you keep 10 DRM free songs per month. Those songs are generally encoded at higher quality than iTunes Plus as well. They generally use LAME MP3 and are encoded using either the -v 0 -vbr-new setting or an older version of lame using -alt preset extreme. All of which always beat the iTunes/Quicktime AAC encoder in listening tests.
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Spotify, a free music streamer which will be available later in the US this year, will stream any song you want for FREE. There will ask be an iPhone app. Why in the hell would anyone want a subscription service instead of Spotify.
Quality. Spotify, Pandora, and others all use low quality 128kbps MP3 or non-Apple AAC streams. Zune Pass encodes using WMA 9 (always the latest revision) at 192Kbps. Plus whenever theres a new revision to WMA they update the songs and push the updates out free of charge.
Plus, again, the ability to keep 10 DRM free songs that are encoded at much higher quality than either the subscription or other streaming services.
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As for the Simplify app, I find it more than suits my needs. Then you give this nonsense about not seeing the need to leave on your computer. Is it that much of a burden to leave your machine on?
If I'm not home, why should I leave my system on during the day eating up electricity during peak hours when electricity is more expensive?
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You also complain about headphones. If you don't like them get new ones. Apple isn't stopping you
No, I'm not complaining about the headphones. I don't use and will never use Apple's earbuds. I'm talking about the overall sound quality output of the iPhone. It's a well known fact that the iPhone itself doesn't sound as good as the standard iPods, even the iPod touch.
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As for the "better gaming" comment, I'd only remind you that the Zune HD is going to be built on the ancient Windows CE OS, even if highly modified. This will greatly limit the capabilities of the Zune HD to have advanced games; certainly not "far beyond what the iPhone and iPod can currently do".
You act as if Windows CE's development has been stalled all this time. Windows CE has been developed all through this decade.
Windows CE actually has nearly a decade and a half of development and refinement behind it. iPhone OS is the new comer here.
Windows CE 5 in 2004 brought Direct3D, DirectDraw, and DirectShow. DirectShow is neat because it does things that even OS X still doesn't do. Like full hardware support for video playback, rather than putting it all on the CPU like OS X
So don't go discounting Windows CE. It's been well developed over the last few years and uses the industry standard for 3D graphics, Direct3D. You also have to take into account that nvidia Tegra supports Direct3D Mobile. The GeForce ULV even supports programmable shaders. The Tegra's 3D capabilities are definitely well beyond that sub-Dreamcast/barely above N64 PowerVR chip in the iPod touch and iPhone.
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All in all, I'm like many who see the benefit in a Zune HD as a competitive challenge to Apple's iPhone/Touch, merely as motivation for Apple. Look folks, even if this Zune product is great, Apple has shown time after time after time to be the clear innovative leader when compared to Microsoft. At best, Microsoft copies Apple to get a temporary advantage..but it's not in their DNA to lead, to advance in any area.
Oh please. That whole "Apple leading the way" nonsense hasn't been true since the mid 90s. Let's not forget that Windows was first with multi-processor SMP support, and Windows had pre-emptive multi-tasking about 5 years before Mac OS did. OS X still can't even support full hardware video playback, and the multi-display support on Apple notebooks is all messed up. Why do I have to start the system with the lid closed or sleep it and wake it back up to get it to use an external display only? Why can't I choose it in software like Windows has allowed me since ooh.. Windows 98?
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The Tegra wont be the only 720p capable ARM and there's no reason that Apple can't use it either. More likely they'll go with a Cortex A8/A9 + NEON (like a snapdragon). Which should be as fast or faster than the ARM 11 based Tegras.
So Apple is going to suddenly rewrite their OS to take advantage of new hardware? You have to remember that iPhone OS has only been written for one piece of hardware, one with a slightly faster processor, and ONLY that hardware.
Also, since the Zune runs Windows CE and has a GeForce ULV on it, DirectShow in Windows is taking advantage of the GPU for video playback. None of this CPU nonsense in iPhone OS and Mac OS X.
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Um, like the Zune?
Zune has sold 3 million as of 5 months ago. Not bad for a player that is only sold in 2 countries.
Again, don't forget that the iPod wasn't an overnight success. It took years for it to finally start selling well.
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Really? How odd because my mini came with an adapter from mini-DVI to DVI. Free. Skew much?
The Mac mini is the only one that ships with an adapter. The MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, and iMac? Nope.
I'm on my 3rd MacBook (2 replacements), and none of them have shipped with adapters. In fact, I bought one adapter for my original MacBook and when they replaced it with the UniBody they wouldn't replace my adapter! Had to buy yet another. $50 in adapters just to get connectivity my PC notebook has out of the box.
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SOX says things about revenue recognition which is what applies in this case and it depends on how your auditor views the regs.
Which is why every other company gives away equal free updates for free and Apple charges.
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Great. I like windows 7. I hope you do too. Try not to steal OSX since you're so bitter about Apple.
Don't worry, I won't. I only have OS X installed on my Mac in case theres firmware updates. Most of my time I use my Mac its spent in Windows
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Didn't you say above you stopped using Safari for browsing? And it still crashes every day? Wow it really does suck. How odd it doesn't crash every day for me and I do use it to browse.
You're one of the few. Everyone I know with an iPhone or iPod touch complains about Safari crashing and site incompatibilities.
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Nothing if they did. That remains to be seen.
Enjoy your next computer sans OSX.
I'm enjoying my Mac sans OS X. It's actually quite nice and useful once OS X gets out of the way.
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Vista failed from the perspective of Microsoft. When the CEO says that sales were bad because of pirates in China you kinda get the impression it didn't sell nearly as well as they wanted. But MS being MS (with deep pockets) they can afford the occasional stumble and they will recover when they ship Windows 7. Heck, people were claiming that Intel was done for and AMD was going to continue to dominate. Nah.
Vista still pushed more than 10 times as many licenses as there are Apple users total. So its not a failure by any stretch of the imagination.
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OSX is not intended to catch up to Windows in total sales. Ever. Just like Apple has zero intention of ever catching up to Nokia in total sales.
Yeah, OS X is just meant to sell computers to people who care more about looks and less about functionality. People who will pay twice as much for the same hardware to say "I have a Mac" without any regard to how much they lose.
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Yup, IE
Again, because Mobile Safari is so good Let me know when Safari finally stops crashing twice as often as mobile IE does.
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Yup, another check box... Push? Active Sync (this is WinCE, not WinMo)
And Windows CE has about 12 more years of development behind compared to iPhone OS. Wheres Push in iPhone OS? Only in very limited circumstances. I'm not about to give Apple $100 a year for services that should be free and are free otherwise.
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Actually it does a lot less than a touch - where are the fancy games, where are the apps, maps, etc.??
Maps? Because maps are so useful away from WiFi.
Apps? They'll be there eventually. Before you know it you'll be able to have all the fart machines you want on the Zune HD.
Games? They'll definitely be there. Direct3D Mobile + GeForce ULV = there will be games. And better than the junk thats currently offered in the App Store as well.
Looks nice on paper, but don't see the Touch killer feature.
And we haven't even seen the new Touches yet.
FM radio is a nice bonus for a few. I know I would probably listen to it once in awhile. Probably for an occasional talk show or to hear some random music I don't own.
Subscription deal looks nice, but I buy my music in spurts. I don't want to be forced to buy songs every month or lose them. Same thing with exploring music. It comes in spurts. Not on a scheduled time table.
I can see how the subscription is good for trying out music though.
And actually I don't see why all these sites don't let us stream entire songs once or twice. I don't know of anyone who likes a song that only wants to listen to it twice and not buy it.
I suppose the pirates would ruin it, but there's a chance it would increase sales because pirates will always be pirates and people that buy music would buy more if they can sample entire songs before buying them. 30 seconds is decent, but come on. We should get a minute at least.
In the old days most of the music I purchased I heard on the radio first or heard at a friend's house.
How do you know this? The Zune lineup has always equaled the iPod lineup in terms of storage.
Let's not forget that last year the Zune flash players were first to 8 and 16GB over 4 and 8GB. Apple seemed poised to do another 4 and 8GB round. This being confirmed by the fact that 4GB 4G iPod nanos were released in some areas and the 16GB iPod nano was delayed.
How do you know this? The Zune HD has 720p video output. I don't see the iPod touch doing that. The Zune HD also has the ability to stream 5 million tracks from the Zune Marketplace over WiFi. Apple doesn't even have a subscription service. That 720p video capability also confirms the rumors of the unit being NVIDIA Tegra based, which means it has much more powerful 3D hardware for gaming and should have at least similar battery life.
How do you know? Microsoft has already confirmed Xbox Live Marketplace integration and the fact that its Tegra based means it will at least have games, and not a million fart apps.
How do you know?
Microsoft already confirmed it will have mobile IE, its just not in the early versions of the hardware being demoed. And don't try this "mobile Safari" is better junk. I've been an iPhone user since the beginning. The sole reason I stopped using my iPhone to browse the web is because mobile Safari crashes all the time and its ridiculously slow. Mobile Safari is, at best, no better than mobile IE.
They haven't taken off because they only sync with obscure players that nobody owns.
If they aren't profitable, they wouldn't still exist. Real's subscription service is nearly a decade old now. And Napster has been around nearly as long. Before being Napster 2.0, it was "PressPlay". Even Charter and some other ISPs run their own lower cost music subscription services.
I've been a music collector my entire life. I like the idea of music subscription services because it allows me to listen to almost anything I want, whenever I want, for a very low fee. I can make playlists, stream music to any computer I use basically, download whatever I want. If I like what I hear I can buy the CD. Every person that I tell about these services would love to have it for their iPod. And a few have gotten a Zune just so they can have it.
Even if a subscription service is your only source of music, it costs only about the same per year as a CD every month. And you get to keep 120 songs per year.
I'm just tired of the way Apple treats their customers and the way their diehard fans skew facts. I love my iPhone and my iPods. Especially my 5.5G 80GB iPod. Of all of my Apple products, thats my favorite.
I'm also tired of the fact that Apple can get away with more anti-competitive and anti-consumer ways than any other company. Imagine if Dell tried to include non-standard display connectivity on their systems and then charged $30 per adapter per connection. There would be a huge outcry. Yet Apple gets away with it like nothing.
Look how Apple charges for updates for the iPod touch. Sony, Microsoft, Creative, and many others give away the same type of updates for free. They don't claim bogus accounting laws (SOX says NOTHING about charging for updates) force them to rob consumers.
I really could go on and on.
I've also been incredibly frustrated by my experience with my Mac. I had to go months without it and have it replaced multiple times before I finally had a functioning system, all due to the repair facilities incompetence and Apple's inability to build a quality computer that they charge a premium price for that doesn't even offer standard features, like card readers and HDMI.
So yes, I AM an Apple owner but I am an incredibly bitter one. The Zune HD is definitely on my purchase list. My MacBook will also be the last pre-built system I buy. From now on I'm going back to my own self-built PCs that will allow me to control the quality and get the most power for my money, instead of spending a premium price and getting half as much as I would if I had spend half as much money. I also can't wait for my AT&T contract to be up. I love my iPhone but AT&T's service is the worst I've dealt with. I live in southern California and AT&T's coverage here is the worst out of the major 4. Even MetroPCS has better coverage here.
Because mobile Safari is so good? I'm running unmodified iPhone OS 2.2.1 on my first generation iPhone and not a day goes by where mobile Safari doesn't crash multiple times.
You know, it's funny how Apple fans feel so threatened by this product. Theres nothing wrong with another company coming out with something better than what Apple does. Other companies have been making better computers at lower prices for years. Whats wrong with someone releasing an iPod touch competitor thats actually better?
And to those who say Vista failed.... How about we say Vista failed when OS X reaches that 300+ million user mark, like Vista?
How about we celebrate when OS X finally reaches the 50 million mark! Only 950 million to go to catch up to XP!
yes your so right . i too is so ashamed to be a apple owner , i will build my own ipod also .
I don't think so. That may not be true anymore. There is a new generation of people who love Halo games and Xbox 360, Photosynth, Surface PCs and even Windows 7. I have seen people using the Zune software and they asked: "What? This is MS?"
It's not the same Microsoft as let's say 5 year ago. They really have changed a lot (think of how much they now do in the Open Source world and they take security very seriously since XP SP2).
For me it is interesting to see that this big dinosaur of company can change faster than some people's minds.
Of course, the Zune HD has two things the iPhone and iPod touch will probably never have: wireless syncing and the ability to stream music over WiFi if you're a Zune Pass subscriber. Come on Apple, it's about time you give us the ability to pay a low monthly fee and get all the music we want!
It's funny you say that, considering the number of people who subscribe to music services numbers in the millions.
And if you want to talk numbers, let's talk about how many copies of Leopard have been sold versus the amount of copies of Vista that have been sold in the same time period
What's with all of the MS fanboys? The Zune is weak product in my opinion but honestly for others it's more approachable. apple is "better" to me in some way. Sure there are differences but who cares? Why does Microsoft have to dominate everything. They can't make an decent OS, IE is the bane of web designers and now they want to compete with google? Uggh All of the supporters hear sound like they are defending Microsoft's position. How Many of you own MS Stock? or work for them?
Very unlikely. Last year there were 120 million Vista users. More users use Vista than Mac OS X.
To the "Vista is a failure" topic: it may be a financial failure when compared to the development costs but it isn't a failure as a technology and for the single user because of stability and security.
Are you so dim. vista is the 8 yrs old longhorn upgrade to msft old OS. It's an upgrade . And it is still a system that has viruses, that you have to pay money to fight back against. Apple does not get viruses . The single apple user can never even imagine the shit you guys go thru. Our OSX simply works fine .No crash, No colds,No bloat ware .and everything syncs with everything.
Saying that more users use vista than mac os is a sad note dude .
What's with all of the MS fanboys? The Zune is weak product in my opinion but honestly for others it's more approachable. apple is "better" to me in some way. Sure there are differences but who cares? Why does Microsoft have to dominate everything. They can't make an decent OS, IE is the bane of web designers and now they want to compete with google? Uggh All of the supporters hear sound like they are defending Microsoft's position. How Many of you own MS Stock? or work for them?
It's funny when Apple fans say things like this, then they go and defend Apple in even worse ways than the "fanboys" they were just talking about.
MS can't make a decent OS? Funny you say that, considering Windows had SMP/multi-processor support well before Apple did. Windows also had pre-emptive multi-tasking half a decade before Apple did. Plus, for years now, Windows has been taking full advantage of the GPU for video playback. Snow Leopard *might* finally do this, well over 10 years after Microsoft started laying the ground work for such features.
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Are you so dim. vista is the 8 yrs old longhorn upgrade to msft old OS. It's an upgrade .
Uh.. what? Vista is only 2 years old. The code for Vista as we know it was written only within the year or so leading up to its release.
Vista is not an "upgrade". It's actually completely rewritten in many ways. Hence the reason its version 6.0 and XP was version 5.1.
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And it is still a system that has viruses, that you have to pay money to fight back against.
You have to be pretty stupid to get a virus these days. The only way to get infected really is to actively download, install, and run the malware yourself. The days of viruses installing and running themselves is about 10 years passed.
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Our OSX simply works fine .No crash
Oh please, that is completely not true. When I got my first Mac a little over 2 years ago, it was the FIRST TIME I had seen a system hard lock (completely crash) since the 1990s. Up until 10.5.5 (and all revisions of Tiger that I used), OS X crashing was a very regular thing that happened once every so often. I've never seen Vista or XP completely lock up in a manner where the entire system goes down.
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No bloat ware
"Bloatware" is software installed by the manufacturer. Not anything with Windows itself.
However, if one wants to discuss software installs that most users don't need, we can talk about the iLife suite, with the exception of iPhoto.
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everything syncs with everything.
You mean the iPods and iPhones out there sync fine, since OS X has almost no hardware support otherwise.
Comments
"The device is tighter and more physically beautiful than the iPod Touch "
He must be kidding, right? It is definitely bigger than an iPod touch, more massive and thicker, The design of the iPod touch is way better and slicker, come one, is your taste so miserable? This zune is desperately ugly. I mean this brick shape, those weird wedges, those huge screws on the top, that's awful. Compare with that
http://www.apple.com/ipodtouch/gallery/#image2
"and it's got a better UI, the main menu's scrolling so natural through the swipe gestures. There's a little note on the side, under the volume toggle?"Hello from Seattle." The power button is up top. "
I don't see anything that made it having a better UI than the Touch, what i see is basic rip-off of Apple's gestures implementation. You can scroll naturally on the Touch with the gestures, what's new here? Nothing, right, no one can say yes, there is simply nothing new.
What i also see on the Zune is an over use of animations with this text for the category (say photos) moving to the top and then zooming in and out like crazy as you navigate in the devise. You end up having few huge letters on the top of the screen and you don't know really why they are there. The interface itself seems very poorly effective, look at the interface of the music player, i can't find words to describe how poor it is: this huge text on the top showing Artists and Playlists, the interface of the player itself is ugly, i mean look at this white big arrow to come back one step backward, the name of Artists or anything else being written with this flashy white on a black background, etc, etc. Overall, the interface is quite ugly and poorly designed. So i can't believe that someone can claim that this thing has abetter UI than an iPod touch, that's crazy.
Also not that the home screen design is really not done to make it work with a ton of apps, so forget this idea of having a ton of apps to use.
"The home button is nice and prominent, a bar rather than a round button on the Touch. It's smaller. And the accelerometer is more swift in responding to repositioning; images rotate very fast"
Yes now i am sure, he is speaking non sense, how can this bar and why it is better than round button? He first says it is prominent and after he says it is smaller, so what? What i see is that this button looks awfully ugly. And oh the good sense would indicate that round button are better as they fit better the shape of the area of the finger that you use to press. Bar shaped button have not been a good way to do it, as you can ask 100 people, most of them will say that they feel irritation of pressing such shaped buttons because they naturally feel uncomfortableness for pressing something that does not feel good on their finger.
Concerning the accelerometer, i don't see your point, on my iPod touch, things are instantaneous.
So the bottom of the line is that this guy is getting exited for nothing, this Zune has no innovative feature, no real killer feature that makes it interesting. This is a plain re-implementation of what Apple did on the iPod touch 2 years ago, a basic boring rip-off of ideas as Microsoft seems unable to come up with its own.
"But I would take this in a heartbeat"
Well, poor him!!!!
This player has a browser.
An unproven and unseen version of IE.
Yup, IE
It will ship with email
Yup, another check box... Push? Active Sync (this is WinCE, not WinMo)
and the app store is already in progress.
what the heck does "in progress" mean? Where's the SDK? How can something be "in progress" if there isn't a way for anyone to write supporting apps for it? Or do you mean they are just building an empty storefront?
Look at this thing carefully
I'd love to - where can I buy it or at least hold it?
it really has caught up and in some cases surpassed the iPod Touch.
Yup, on paper.
The problem is paper rarely equals reality. Let's let it ship, then we can declare with authority who has surpassed who (providing Apple's own updated Touch isn't out by the time this thing actually ships)
What did he expect, for it take 10 seconds to show the photos? It opened the same speed as a touch or I would guess any mp3 photo viewer.
The UI looks nice, I admit that, but outside of FM HD Radio (of which I personally have no use, FM radio stinks), this does nothing the iPod touch doesn't already. Actually it does a lot less than a touch - where are the fancy games, where are the apps, maps, etc.??
MSFT drones always want to throw up how MS OS phones had this and that before the iPhone, well the touch had all this 2 years ago, MS is late to the party.
Plus, Apple is going to update the touch later this year. This will be as much of a threat to the touch as the Zune was to the iPod. It will sell, because MS has their supporters and Apple haters, but not enough to make a dent in iPod touch sales, the touch has too much of a head start and offers more.
Ok, this doesn't look bad, but I don't see anything that makes it "better" than the touch. Plus, we haven't even seen the 3rd gen touch yet so...
I agree, not getting why people would say it is better when there are going to be obvious speed differences simply by way of it having newer hardware.
As far as accelerometer goes, I think the delay in flip on the iPhone might be in part to prevent accidental flipping. Had a camera once that had that design & would flip the photos for you, I turned it off because it was flipping them back & forth as I tried to review the pictures.
Microsoft may do well enough with this refresh, but it still isn't a game changer the way the iPhone & iPod touch were.
OLED is awesome. Can't wait for it on iPod touch. But in the video, the Zune screen looked garish and cartoony. The interface, although probably not complete, looked clumsy and unpolished. Huge text? Unresponsive interface?
It looked like the next Microsoft Bob.
Can't wait for the Macworld review. I truly hope it's a nice leap for Microsoft. There is nothing wrong with a little competition.
I hope you are being sarcastic. If not, no, it hasn't caught up - not by a long shot. First, the device doesn't have any kind of operating system capable of supporting the richness you see with iPhone OS. Second, everything I am reading so far indicates that there will NOT be an app store for zune, and that anything available for it will likely be limited to games. Third, even if there is an app store, you need a good development environment and that means there needs to be an actual OS behind this thing, which there does not appear to be. Fourth, let's talk about mobile web: The web browser in development for Zune HD is a slimmed down and custom version of IE6. IE6! So, this 2010 time frame device will have a browser based on standards and technologies 9 years old. Fifth, OS3 for iPhone / iPod touch opens up abilities to create hardware that will interface with the device and any custom software also. Blood pressure monitors, glucose monitors, and anything you can even think of, and people will think of a LOT. Can Zune do that? Nope.
I think it's a nice looking device, and I like the OLED screen. But the gushing the press is doing about how this is some sort of iPod killer just amuses me. This thing has a LONG way to go before it can stack up against a touch.
Well, a thing like this is created for Windows mobile:
http://www.dailytech.com/Researchers...ticle14941.htm
What makes you think it cannot be done on Zune HD..?
It does look like MS has improved the Zune enough to make it worth buying. It doesn't have to do everything iPods can do to make it a sufficient product in its own right. MS now has another "it's good enough" product and deep enough pockets that the project can lose money for years to come.
The potential dangers to Apple include: Zune HD's processing power. Apple historically under-configures all their hardware even when larger/faster components are readily available. MS knows this, and with the new Zune, they are likely to exploit it. OLED and 720p capabilities are also not to be underestimated. And MS will likely be able to make this thing play high quality games from the X-box family. They can easily "out game" Apple if the Zune HD hardware is up to it.
Comparisons? Well, we truly don't yet know what the new Zune can really do or not do. Based on the pictures, video, and assumed specs, I think it's pretty apparent it's nowhere close to the capabilities of the iPod touch. I have not seen it, so I can't say if the screen is better or not, and supposedly the 720p output requires some sort of dock otherwise it can't do it (does that mean a co-processor embedded in the dock?). I could, as could anyone, list pages upon pages of features available to iPod that this new Zune lacks. It seems that there are less than a half-dozen 'features' in the Zune HD that aren't found in the current iPod touch. It will be interesting to see what Apple introduces in a little while.
What can Apple do? Don't skimp on configuration. OLED screen. 720p output. WiFi sync. Add standard FM radio (not HD - it's useless). That's it. There would be no other compelling feature of the Zune HD to temp buyers away from the iPod (or iPhone).
And how is that little bar of a button better than a nice round button? It's obvious to me that MS decided that they didn't want to be seen as copying too much, so the implemented an inferior home button and call it an improvement.
As others have said, "yawn." Competition is good, but this thing doesn't give me any Zune envy.
While it's fun to point and laugh at MS products, it's good that they put something good out once in awhile. I eagerly await Apple's answer to this challenger.
You're joking, right?! You don't think Apple has ANYTHING in it's lineup that is just as good or better than the Zune HD?!
Maybe you haven't heard of the iphone and the ipod touch...
In 2003 (the last data I could easily find) nearly 450 Million computers were sold in the USA alone. 750,000 live on.
Are you sure of your numbers here. ? wow .
Show me how the Zune Marketplace is gaining subscribers when Microsoft is not even selling Zunes.
The Zune isn't selling? Zune passed a couple million sold early last year. I don't know what the current sales numbers are, but they're pretty close to what the iPod was until last 2004, 3 years after it launched. Don't forget the iPod itself wasn't an overnight success. It took more than 3 years for it to finally start selling decent.
Saying that the price of cd's is the same as buying on the itunes store is an outright lie. I don't know what you're talking about but I remeber paying $15 to $20 before iTunes.
Well, then you were buying your music at the wrong places. I haven't paid more than $13 for a CD since the early 90s. Thats while buying music at stores like Virgin as well. Even the "Digipaks" and CDs packed with DVDs haven't cost me more than $13. It's all about knowing where to buy and when to buy.
The problem that you don't mention is that if you're not consistently trying new music, you are losing money while not owning anything. Most people beyond a certain age come to a point where they settle into the music they like or grew up with and no longer really listen to music. Under Zune Marketplace, by the time you hit 50 or 60, you will own nothing and still have to constantly pay a certain amount/month.
Well, thats their loss if they stop exploring new music.
I also guess you missed the part where the Zune Pass lets you keep 10 songs per month. So for $15 a month, Zune Pass lets you keep 10 DRM free songs per month. Those songs are generally encoded at higher quality than iTunes Plus as well. They generally use LAME MP3 and are encoded using either the -v 0 -vbr-new setting or an older version of lame using -alt preset extreme. All of which always beat the iTunes/Quicktime AAC encoder in listening tests.
Spotify, a free music streamer which will be available later in the US this year, will stream any song you want for FREE. There will ask be an iPhone app. Why in the hell would anyone want a subscription service instead of Spotify.
Quality. Spotify, Pandora, and others all use low quality 128kbps MP3 or non-Apple AAC streams. Zune Pass encodes using WMA 9 (always the latest revision) at 192Kbps. Plus whenever theres a new revision to WMA they update the songs and push the updates out free of charge.
Plus, again, the ability to keep 10 DRM free songs that are encoded at much higher quality than either the subscription or other streaming services.
As for the Simplify app, I find it more than suits my needs. Then you give this nonsense about not seeing the need to leave on your computer. Is it that much of a burden to leave your machine on?
If I'm not home, why should I leave my system on during the day eating up electricity during peak hours when electricity is more expensive?
You also complain about headphones. If you don't like them get new ones. Apple isn't stopping you
No, I'm not complaining about the headphones. I don't use and will never use Apple's earbuds. I'm talking about the overall sound quality output of the iPhone. It's a well known fact that the iPhone itself doesn't sound as good as the standard iPods, even the iPod touch.
As for the "better gaming" comment, I'd only remind you that the Zune HD is going to be built on the ancient Windows CE OS, even if highly modified. This will greatly limit the capabilities of the Zune HD to have advanced games; certainly not "far beyond what the iPhone and iPod can currently do".
You act as if Windows CE's development has been stalled all this time. Windows CE has been developed all through this decade.
Windows CE actually has nearly a decade and a half of development and refinement behind it. iPhone OS is the new comer here.
Windows CE 5 in 2004 brought Direct3D, DirectDraw, and DirectShow. DirectShow is neat because it does things that even OS X still doesn't do. Like full hardware support for video playback, rather than putting it all on the CPU like OS X
So don't go discounting Windows CE. It's been well developed over the last few years and uses the industry standard for 3D graphics, Direct3D. You also have to take into account that nvidia Tegra supports Direct3D Mobile. The GeForce ULV even supports programmable shaders. The Tegra's 3D capabilities are definitely well beyond that sub-Dreamcast/barely above N64 PowerVR chip in the iPod touch and iPhone.
All in all, I'm like many who see the benefit in a Zune HD as a competitive challenge to Apple's iPhone/Touch, merely as motivation for Apple. Look folks, even if this Zune product is great, Apple has shown time after time after time to be the clear innovative leader when compared to Microsoft. At best, Microsoft copies Apple to get a temporary advantage..but it's not in their DNA to lead, to advance in any area.
Oh please. That whole "Apple leading the way" nonsense hasn't been true since the mid 90s. Let's not forget that Windows was first with multi-processor SMP support, and Windows had pre-emptive multi-tasking about 5 years before Mac OS did. OS X still can't even support full hardware video playback, and the multi-display support on Apple notebooks is all messed up. Why do I have to start the system with the lid closed or sleep it and wake it back up to get it to use an external display only? Why can't I choose it in software like Windows has allowed me since ooh.. Windows 98?
The Tegra wont be the only 720p capable ARM and there's no reason that Apple can't use it either. More likely they'll go with a Cortex A8/A9 + NEON (like a snapdragon). Which should be as fast or faster than the ARM 11 based Tegras.
So Apple is going to suddenly rewrite their OS to take advantage of new hardware? You have to remember that iPhone OS has only been written for one piece of hardware, one with a slightly faster processor, and ONLY that hardware.
Also, since the Zune runs Windows CE and has a GeForce ULV on it, DirectShow in Windows is taking advantage of the GPU for video playback. None of this CPU nonsense in iPhone OS and Mac OS X.
Um, like the Zune?
Zune has sold 3 million as of 5 months ago. Not bad for a player that is only sold in 2 countries.
Again, don't forget that the iPod wasn't an overnight success. It took years for it to finally start selling well.
Really? How odd because my mini came with an adapter from mini-DVI to DVI. Free. Skew much?
The Mac mini is the only one that ships with an adapter. The MacBook, MacBook Pro, MacBook Air, and iMac? Nope.
I'm on my 3rd MacBook (2 replacements), and none of them have shipped with adapters. In fact, I bought one adapter for my original MacBook and when they replaced it with the UniBody they wouldn't replace my adapter! Had to buy yet another. $50 in adapters just to get connectivity my PC notebook has out of the box.
SOX says things about revenue recognition which is what applies in this case and it depends on how your auditor views the regs.
Which is why every other company gives away equal free updates for free and Apple charges.
Great. I like windows 7. I hope you do too. Try not to steal OSX since you're so bitter about Apple.
Don't worry, I won't. I only have OS X installed on my Mac in case theres firmware updates. Most of my time I use my Mac its spent in Windows
Didn't you say above you stopped using Safari for browsing? And it still crashes every day? Wow it really does suck. How odd it doesn't crash every day for me and I do use it to browse.
You're one of the few. Everyone I know with an iPhone or iPod touch complains about Safari crashing and site incompatibilities.
Nothing if they did. That remains to be seen.
Enjoy your next computer sans OSX.
I'm enjoying my Mac sans OS X. It's actually quite nice and useful once OS X gets out of the way.
Vista failed from the perspective of Microsoft. When the CEO says that sales were bad because of pirates in China you kinda get the impression it didn't sell nearly as well as they wanted. But MS being MS (with deep pockets) they can afford the occasional stumble and they will recover when they ship Windows 7. Heck, people were claiming that Intel was done for and AMD was going to continue to dominate. Nah.
Vista still pushed more than 10 times as many licenses as there are Apple users total. So its not a failure by any stretch of the imagination.
OSX is not intended to catch up to Windows in total sales. Ever. Just like Apple has zero intention of ever catching up to Nokia in total sales.
Yeah, OS X is just meant to sell computers to people who care more about looks and less about functionality. People who will pay twice as much for the same hardware to say "I have a Mac" without any regard to how much they lose.
Yup, IE
Again, because Mobile Safari is so good
Yup, another check box... Push? Active Sync (this is WinCE, not WinMo)
And Windows CE has about 12 more years of development behind compared to iPhone OS. Wheres Push in iPhone OS? Only in very limited circumstances. I'm not about to give Apple $100 a year for services that should be free and are free otherwise.
Actually it does a lot less than a touch - where are the fancy games, where are the apps, maps, etc.??
Maps? Because maps are so useful away from WiFi.
Apps? They'll be there eventually. Before you know it you'll be able to have all the fart machines you want on the Zune HD.
Games? They'll definitely be there. Direct3D Mobile + GeForce ULV = there will be games. And better than the junk thats currently offered in the App Store as well.
And we haven't even seen the new Touches yet.
FM radio is a nice bonus for a few. I know I would probably listen to it once in awhile. Probably for an occasional talk show or to hear some random music I don't own.
Subscription deal looks nice, but I buy my music in spurts. I don't want to be forced to buy songs every month or lose them. Same thing with exploring music. It comes in spurts. Not on a scheduled time table.
I can see how the subscription is good for trying out music though.
And actually I don't see why all these sites don't let us stream entire songs once or twice. I don't know of anyone who likes a song that only wants to listen to it twice and not buy it.
I suppose the pirates would ruin it, but there's a chance it would increase sales because pirates will always be pirates and people that buy music would buy more if they can sample entire songs before buying them. 30 seconds is decent, but come on. We should get a minute at least.
In the old days most of the music I purchased I heard on the radio first or heard at a friend's house.
How do you know this? The Zune lineup has always equaled the iPod lineup in terms of storage.
Let's not forget that last year the Zune flash players were first to 8 and 16GB over 4 and 8GB. Apple seemed poised to do another 4 and 8GB round. This being confirmed by the fact that 4GB 4G iPod nanos were released in some areas and the 16GB iPod nano was delayed.
How do you know this? The Zune HD has 720p video output. I don't see the iPod touch doing that. The Zune HD also has the ability to stream 5 million tracks from the Zune Marketplace over WiFi. Apple doesn't even have a subscription service. That 720p video capability also confirms the rumors of the unit being NVIDIA Tegra based, which means it has much more powerful 3D hardware for gaming and should have at least similar battery life.
How do you know? Microsoft has already confirmed Xbox Live Marketplace integration and the fact that its Tegra based means it will at least have games, and not a million fart apps.
How do you know?
Microsoft already confirmed it will have mobile IE, its just not in the early versions of the hardware being demoed. And don't try this "mobile Safari" is better junk. I've been an iPhone user since the beginning. The sole reason I stopped using my iPhone to browse the web is because mobile Safari crashes all the time and its ridiculously slow. Mobile Safari is, at best, no better than mobile IE.
They haven't taken off because they only sync with obscure players that nobody owns.
If they aren't profitable, they wouldn't still exist. Real's subscription service is nearly a decade old now. And Napster has been around nearly as long. Before being Napster 2.0, it was "PressPlay". Even Charter and some other ISPs run their own lower cost music subscription services.
I've been a music collector my entire life. I like the idea of music subscription services because it allows me to listen to almost anything I want, whenever I want, for a very low fee. I can make playlists, stream music to any computer I use basically, download whatever I want. If I like what I hear I can buy the CD. Every person that I tell about these services would love to have it for their iPod. And a few have gotten a Zune just so they can have it.
Even if a subscription service is your only source of music, it costs only about the same per year as a CD every month. And you get to keep 120 songs per year.
I'm just tired of the way Apple treats their customers and the way their diehard fans skew facts. I love my iPhone and my iPods. Especially my 5.5G 80GB iPod. Of all of my Apple products, thats my favorite.
I'm also tired of the fact that Apple can get away with more anti-competitive and anti-consumer ways than any other company. Imagine if Dell tried to include non-standard display connectivity on their systems and then charged $30 per adapter per connection. There would be a huge outcry. Yet Apple gets away with it like nothing.
Look how Apple charges for updates for the iPod touch. Sony, Microsoft, Creative, and many others give away the same type of updates for free. They don't claim bogus accounting laws (SOX says NOTHING about charging for updates) force them to rob consumers.
I really could go on and on.
I've also been incredibly frustrated by my experience with my Mac. I had to go months without it and have it replaced multiple times before I finally had a functioning system, all due to the repair facilities incompetence and Apple's inability to build a quality computer that they charge a premium price for that doesn't even offer standard features, like card readers and HDMI.
So yes, I AM an Apple owner but I am an incredibly bitter one. The Zune HD is definitely on my purchase list. My MacBook will also be the last pre-built system I buy. From now on I'm going back to my own self-built PCs that will allow me to control the quality and get the most power for my money, instead of spending a premium price and getting half as much as I would if I had spend half as much money. I also can't wait for my AT&T contract to be up. I love my iPhone but AT&T's service is the worst I've dealt with. I live in southern California and AT&T's coverage here is the worst out of the major 4. Even MetroPCS has better coverage here.
Because mobile Safari is so good? I'm running unmodified iPhone OS 2.2.1 on my first generation iPhone and not a day goes by where mobile Safari doesn't crash multiple times.
You know, it's funny how Apple fans feel so threatened by this product. Theres nothing wrong with another company coming out with something better than what Apple does. Other companies have been making better computers at lower prices for years. Whats wrong with someone releasing an iPod touch competitor thats actually better?
And to those who say Vista failed.... How about we say Vista failed when OS X reaches that 300+ million user mark, like Vista?
How about we celebrate when OS X finally reaches the 50 million mark! Only 950 million to go to catch up to XP!
yes your so right . i too is so ashamed to be a apple owner , i will build my own ipod also .
I don't think so. That may not be true anymore. There is a new generation of people who love Halo games and Xbox 360, Photosynth, Surface PCs and even Windows 7. I have seen people using the Zune software and they asked: "What? This is MS?"
It's not the same Microsoft as let's say 5 year ago. They really have changed a lot (think of how much they now do in the Open Source world and they take security very seriously since XP SP2).
For me it is interesting to see that this big dinosaur of company can change faster than some people's minds.
Competition!!!
goose bumps
Of course, the Zune HD has two things the iPhone and iPod touch will probably never have: wireless syncing and the ability to stream music over WiFi if you're a Zune Pass subscriber. Come on Apple, it's about time you give us the ability to pay a low monthly fee and get all the music we want!
You and the other 5 guys who are begging for it!
You and the other 5 guys who are begging for it!
It's funny you say that, considering the number of people who subscribe to music services numbers in the millions.
And if you want to talk numbers, let's talk about how many copies of Leopard have been sold versus the amount of copies of Vista that have been sold in the same time period
Very unlikely. Last year there were 120 million Vista users. More users use Vista than Mac OS X.
To the "Vista is a failure" topic: it may be a financial failure when compared to the development costs but it isn't a failure as a technology and for the single user because of stability and security.
Are you so dim. vista is the 8 yrs old longhorn upgrade to msft old OS. It's an upgrade . And it is still a system that has viruses, that you have to pay money to fight back against. Apple does not get viruses . The single apple user can never even imagine the shit you guys go thru. Our OSX simply works fine .No crash, No colds,No bloat ware .and everything syncs with everything.
Saying that more users use vista than mac os is a sad note dude .
9
peace
What's with all of the MS fanboys? The Zune is weak product in my opinion but honestly for others it's more approachable. apple is "better" to me in some way. Sure there are differences but who cares? Why does Microsoft have to dominate everything. They can't make an decent OS, IE is the bane of web designers and now they want to compete with google? Uggh All of the supporters hear sound like they are defending Microsoft's position. How Many of you own MS Stock? or work for them?
It's funny when Apple fans say things like this, then they go and defend Apple in even worse ways than the "fanboys" they were just talking about.
MS can't make a decent OS? Funny you say that, considering Windows had SMP/multi-processor support well before Apple did. Windows also had pre-emptive multi-tasking half a decade before Apple did. Plus, for years now, Windows has been taking full advantage of the GPU for video playback. Snow Leopard *might* finally do this, well over 10 years after Microsoft started laying the ground work for such features.
Are you so dim. vista is the 8 yrs old longhorn upgrade to msft old OS. It's an upgrade .
Uh.. what? Vista is only 2 years old. The code for Vista as we know it was written only within the year or so leading up to its release.
Vista is not an "upgrade". It's actually completely rewritten in many ways. Hence the reason its version 6.0 and XP was version 5.1.
And it is still a system that has viruses, that you have to pay money to fight back against.
You have to be pretty stupid to get a virus these days. The only way to get infected really is to actively download, install, and run the malware yourself. The days of viruses installing and running themselves is about 10 years passed.
Our OSX simply works fine .No crash
Oh please, that is completely not true. When I got my first Mac a little over 2 years ago, it was the FIRST TIME I had seen a system hard lock (completely crash) since the 1990s. Up until 10.5.5 (and all revisions of Tiger that I used), OS X crashing was a very regular thing that happened once every so often. I've never seen Vista or XP completely lock up in a manner where the entire system goes down.
No bloat ware
"Bloatware" is software installed by the manufacturer. Not anything with Windows itself.
However, if one wants to discuss software installs that most users don't need, we can talk about the iLife suite, with the exception of iPhoto.
everything syncs with everything.
You mean the iPods and iPhones out there sync fine, since OS X has almost no hardware support otherwise.