That was my quote, actually. But I wasn't claiming the ports were melting the machine...just that Apple is really not marketing its machine to people who use them like you do. That much is obvious. Don't get me wrong...I would be irritated if I was you. You had a machine that could do x, y and z, and now it can only do x and perhaps y. My issue is with your comments was the claim that Apple designed these machines specifically for the kind of thing you do...which is not true. That doesn't mean the laptop won't work just fine...it's just that their data shows that you are not a large part of their market (not your field...just your connectivity needs).
Sorry about that- not sure what happened there- have put your name back in.
Didn't get a chance to day to list my spec- too much to do- but prob not going to move any discussion along anyway.
Not that i Buy Turnkey systems- but everywhere with new stock has dropped the 15" from there list of FCP deals. so no the 15" is probably no longer aimed at serious FCP users away from there desktops. hope they sort the ports out in the future as they are great machines. - hope your enjoying yours.
Other companies separate "Business" from "Home/Consumer" classes.This way they can offer shiny and colorful machines to college kids and soccer dads. The Business Class range from simple stripped down notebooks to powerhouse dual HD, 4Dimm slots Quad core notebooks. They also offer non-gaming higher end workstation chips if you chose to dish out the money for them.
Now Apple has blurred the two lines together, stripped expandability/non-shinebox glass screen options on the 13/15 "Pro" and still don't offer options other manufacturers have on the 17in (The one people like me are now 'supposed to buy'). I honestly don't care if it is called the PRO or HappyTime Funbox just give me the features the competition has had for years now don't take MORE of them away!
I know it makes sense because they are raking in the cash like Robber Barons but using PRO was a marketing tool that separated the features, now PRO has no meaning at all so why even use it? Just to make everyone feel a sense of elitism to separate them from their friends and family?
They're not dumb. But you're making an assumption you shouldn't.
So my *assumption* that they actually know their market is unreasonable? Instead, we should take your assumption...that they actually just pull these changes out of their asses with nothing to back it up in terms of research? Righto.
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Now you're going back on what you just said. Over the past five years or so their sales have been very good. Past that timeframe, not so good.
I don't see how I'm doing that.
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The iPod is what made them what they are today, and they didn't understand just what they had at first. Once they did, they took good advantage of it. But they fall into things.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to make that rather obvious and rhetorical point. The only thing I can infer is that you are claiming Apple would not be successful without the iPod. I don't want to strawman that point, but I need to ask you if that's what you meant?
My take is that Apple was successful long before the iPod. Granted, the iPod opened their business in ways they couldn't have predicted...from branding to sales of the unit itself, to iTunes.
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What does a dockable workstation have to do with anything? You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.
Deal with reality.
There you go again...you're nitpicking every little word choice instead of focusing on what the overall meaning is. The point is Apple didn't design the MBP to do what Graeme is doing. He's not their target market. How anyone could look at their overall marketing strategy and conclude otherwise is beyond me.
But what's ironic is that you just accused me of this:
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....You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.
That's exactly what you and Graeme are doing. You're saying "Hey, Apple. I was using a MBP as a desktop. Since I used it that way, that's what you designed it for. Now you changed your design and I have to use it like a powerful mobile workstation, instead of a desktop!" My lord.
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You haven;t been around much, have you? Apple's top Powerbooks cost around that price for years, and some PC models cost even more. These weren't some special souped up models either.
I really don't know where you get your information. Visit apple-history.com and check out the prices going back to the first Powerbook. There are only a handful of models that go for that price. Even if you were correct, which you're not, you can't really be claiming that the machine was for only true pros or even that mostly pros bought them.
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You know, you can't complain about some minor thing, and then claim that I'm setting up a strawman situation when I mention, in response, something far more important that I wouldn't have mentioned at all if you had not complained in the first place. Do you think that your minor problems are more important than others' more important ones?
Just respond, and don't pretend that the issues I bring up are less important than the ones you bring up.
If you keep doing that it will only continue to show that you don't have much of an argument in response.
I just posted that no, I don't think my comment on what I'd like to see is more important. Are you even reading? And I wasn't complaining. I was noting that it would be nice to have FW400. The difference is I realize it's not a big deal. I also realize that design moves on. Apparently you don't, because you're still stuck on features that less than 5 percent of people use. At most.
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I don't care if you're impressed or not. You obviously aren't familiar with the pro market for these machines, and so I am beginning to think there's not much point in continuing this.
You're right, who cares.
I'm dropping it.
Right...don't respond, just run away. I'm asking you to support your assertions with data, and you won't. I even went so far as to estimate and extrapolate some of the possible data points in my argument. If you can show that market is as large as you claim, then please do so. If not, then at least admit it's likely you're wrong.
Sorry about that- not sure what happened there- have put your name back in.
Didn't get a chance to day to list my spec- too much to do- but prob not going to move any discussion along anyway.
Not that i Buy Turnkey systems- but everywhere with new stock has dropped the 15" from there list of FCP deals. so no the 15" is probably no longer aimed at serious FCP users away from there desktops. hope they sort the ports out in the future as they are great machines. - hope your enjoying yours.
Yeah, I am...thanks. That's interesting about the lack of 15"/FCP bundles. Is there anyway you could give a few examples?
Other companies separate "Business" from "Home/Consumer" classes.This way they can offer shiny and colorful machines to college kids and soccer dads. The Business Class range from simple stripped down notebooks to powerhouse dual HD, 4Dimm slots Quad core notebooks. They also offer non-gaming higher end workstation chips if you chose to dish out the money for them.
Now Apple has blurred the two lines together, stripped expandability/non-shinebox glass screen options on the 13/15 "Pro" and still don't offer options other manufacturers have on the 17in (The one people like me are now 'supposed to buy'). I honestly don't care if it is called the PRO or HappyTime Funbox just give me the features the competition has had for years now don't take MORE of them away!
I know it makes sense because they are raking in the cash like Robber Barons but using PRO was a marketing tool that separated the features, now PRO has no meaning at all so why even use it? Just to make everyone feel a sense of elitism to separate them from their friends and family?
See, I don't agree with that. They removed the card slot. Big deal. They realized that people using the machines weren't using the slots in great numbers. They didn't make it less of a "pro" machine. Here, take a look:
MacBook (Consumer):
2.13ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 Memory
160GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
Standard keyboard
White polycarbonate shell
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 400 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$999
MacBook Pro 13" (higher end model)
2.53ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
250GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$1499
For $500, you get a unibody enclosure, 25% faster processor, larger HDD, FW800, a 7 hour built-in battery and twice the RAM.
Macbook Pro 15" Middle Config
2.66ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
320GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M +9600M GT 256MB
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$1999
Macbook Pro 15 (best config without bto). I happen to own this model.
2.8ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
500GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M +9600M GT 512MB
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$2299
For $500 more than the 13", you get a bigger HDD, better graphics and a speed bump. For another $300, you get twice the graphics memory, a faster processor and a 500GB HDD.
Now, tell me there isn't much distinction here. No one ever said "Pro" meant that only video editing professionals should buy the machine.
It's a great box of tricks and the built in controllers take the strain off the computer.
At present, i have one of the 15" MBP's before they got the glossy screen (am not anti glossy- but like the matt screen) and has both FW400 & 800 ports built in. early 2008 i think?
the video deck at present is a Sony DSR-25 - DVCAM although that changes depending on the viddeo format im working on.
See, I don't agree with that. They removed the card slot. Big deal. They realized that people using the machines weren't using the slots in great numbers. They didn't make it less of a "pro" machine. Here, take a look:
Now, tell me there isn't much distinction here. No one ever said "Pro" meant that only video editing professionals should buy the machine.
Okay so you took one of examples why a lot of designers/video/audio/photo people feel shafted and spoke to it but where are the Matte options for the actual 'notebook' sized 13 and 15in? How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?
The point is Apple has made it clear that PRO means nothing (silly as it was to begin with) and if you are a design/film/audio/photo creative you should get the huge 17in and deal with it.. oh and give us $50 more for the matte option we know you want anyway.
NO ONE should argue that for 80% of the market the current MBP line is a fantastic machine, and I agree it is, but there is segment who has been around for over a decade that has slowly watched their options dwindle away. So yeah maybe we are whiny but then again no one has to read the comments either.
Okay so you took one of examples why a lot of designers/video/audio/photo people feel shafted and spoke to it but where are the Matte options for the actual 'notebook' sized 13 and 15in? How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?
The point is Apple has made it clear that PRO means nothing (silly as it was to begin with) and if you are a design/film/audio/photo creative you should get the huge 17in and deal with it.. oh and give us $50 more for the matte option we know you want anyway.
NO ONE should argue that for 80% of the market the current MBP line is a fantastic machine, and I agree it is, but there is segment who has been around for over a decade that has slowly watched their options dwindle away. So yeah maybe we are whiny but then again no one has to read the comments either.
Look, I understand that there are people who are annoyed. I would be as well. But the number of those people is very small. Apple itself says the total number of people who use ExpressCard at all is "single digit." Imagine how low the number is for people that want to do what you're describing? It's sure as hell isn't 20%. The MBP is a fantastic machine for at least 95% of the market. Add to that people who "need" the matte version and it becomes infinitesimal. As an aside, having used the matte and glossy screens in multiple environments for different uses, I can say that the glossy screen is so much better it's not even funny.
Getting back to "pro:" I contend that for the vast majority of pro users, the machine is great.
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...How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?
1. They aren't being forced to upgrade.
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option?
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video.
It's a great box of tricks and the built in controllers take the strain off the computer.
At present, i have one of the 15" MBP's before they got the glossy screen (am not anti glossy- but like the matt screen) and has both FW400 & 800 ports built in. early 2008 i think?
the video deck at present is a Sony DSR-25 - DVCAM although that changes depending on the viddeo format im working on.
Did you say at some point you work with audio/music?
Thanks for the links. Let me ask...would an additional FW800 port make you happy? I also notice that the majority of those bundles are desktops. That's either because the new MBPs suck that much, or desktops are more suited to the task of serious video editing with external drives and decks.
As for me, I'm a music teacher, actually. I do work with audio, but it's not sophisticated. I use my internal drive (now 500GB, which is more than enough for me). Any video editing I do is done with consumer level software and hardware. Here again though, I would think that unless you need to store 400GB or more at a time, you'd be fine with using the internal drive as long as you backed up the work. Or, one could easily use a USB 2.0 1TB drive, which goes for about $100. That would leave you one more USB port and a FW800 port, plus ethernet. Right?
Look, I understand that there are people who are annoyed. I would be as well. But the number of those people is very small. Apple itself says the total number of people who use ExpressCard at all is "single digit."
Fine I understand that and I even stated that I understand I (and others) are in the minority here but I wasn't polled on the EC, none of my pro buddies were either so I guess our votes don't count. Who did they poll? How did they poll? Where did they poll? First rule of statistics and poling is that you can find infinite ways to make the data say what you want it to say. If you polled only creative teams it would be 90% but if you only polled married couples over 50 yrs of age then you would get 1%.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Imagine how low the number is for people that want to do what you're describing? It's sure as hell isn't 20%. The MBP is a fantastic machine for at least 95% of the market. Add to that people who "need" the matte version and it becomes infinitesimal.
That is why Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 'business class' machines and portable workstations with mattes screens, actual workstation class graphics cards, 4+ USB ports / FW / ESATA? I guess they only sell a handful a year to all of us 1%. You might as well say 11ty Billion customers love the new MBP because if we are going to just make up numbers I can too.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
As an aside, having used the matte and glossy screens in multiple environments for different uses, I can say that the glossy screen is so much better it's not even funny. Getting back to "pro:" I contend that for the vast majority of pro users, the machine is great. 1
And I'm supposed to change my preference because you say so? Now that you mention it I agree! *sarcasm*
1. They aren't being forced to upgrade. Unless, like me, you need a portable but they offer nothing you want. Sucks to be me I know and that isn't yours or anyone else problem but still an issue for me and many other creative types.
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option? Yes it is too large for a portable machine, won't fit on a tray in coach while traveling and doesn't even offer things like 4 dimm slots, 2x hard drive bays or more ports compared to the competition to justify the size/cost
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video.[/QUOTE] No because USB has terrible sustained bandwidth even compared to FW400 let alone FW800 or ESATA. Plus HDV and most older cameras use FW not USB. (I know AVCHD use USB)
As for me, I'm a music teacher, actually. I do work with audio, but it's not sophisticated. I use my internal drive (now 500GB, which is more than enough for me). Any video editing I do is done with consumer level software and hardware. Here again though, I would think that unless you need to store 400GB or more at a time, you'd be fine with using the internal drive as long as you backed up the work. Or, one could easily use a USB 2.0 1TB drive, which goes for about $100. That would leave you one more USB port and a FW800 port, plus ethernet. Right?
You also have to understand many people have $10k invested in Apple hardware, software and Mac specific 3rd party hardware. If Apple continues this downward trend of taking away features we have relied on for years that doesn't just mean 'get a Dell and shut up' we'd have to get a new Desktop, notebook, PC versions of software and 3rd party hardware and basically re-invest thousands to switch to a platform we really don't want. Of course no one wants to do that but the trend has been pushing in this direction for a few years now (Taking away expansion, glassy screens, non-removable batteries and now a crippled SATA HD) and it is alarming.
Fine I understand that and I even stated that I understand I (and others) are in the minority here but I wasn't polled on the EC, none of my pro buddies were either so I guess our votes don't count. Who did they poll? How did they poll? Where did they poll? First rule of statistics and poling is that you can find infinite ways to make the data say what you want it to say. If you polled only creative teams it would be 90% but if you only polled married couples over 50 yrs of age then you would get 1%.
Who said anything about polling? As if that's the only way they can tell what's happening with the machines they sell?
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That is why Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 'business class' machines and portable workstations with mattes screens, actual workstation class graphics cards, 4+ USB ports / FW / ESATA? I guess they only sell a handful a year to all of us 1%. You might as well say 11ty Billion customers love the new MBP because if we are going to just make up numbers I can too.
Don't be an ass. You used the term "the market" in the context of the MBP market, not the overall laptop market. Now, once you see your 80% number is complete bullshit, you change your tune. Get real.
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And I'm supposed to change my preference because you say so? Now that you mention it I agree! *sarcasm*
Just fucking relax. I was only stating my opinion from having used both. In fact, I've never met someone who has used both consistently that disagrees. Obviously you think that having a matte screen is some kind of pro status symbol.
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1. They aren't being forced to upgrade. Unless, like me, you need a portable but they offer nothing you want. Sucks to be me I know and that isn't yours or anyone else problem but still an issue for me and many other creative types.
What's wrong with your current portable?
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2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option? Yes it is too large for a portable machine, won't fit on a tray in coach while traveling and doesn't even offer things like 4 dimm slots, 2x hard drive bays or more ports compared to the competition to justify the size/cost
So you need to connect the additional peripherals on an airplane? So you want 37 different ports, and MB Air like size. Righto.
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3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video. No because USB has terrible sustained bandwidth even compared to FW400 let alone FW800 or ESATA. Plus HDV and most older cameras use FW not USB. (I know AVCHD use USB)
That's fair enough. I was just asking.
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Originally Posted by DdubRes79
You also have to understand many people have $10k invested in Apple hardware, software and Mac specific 3rd party hardware. If Apple continues this downward trend of taking away features we have relied on for years that doesn't just mean 'get a Dell and shut up' we'd have to get a new Desktop, notebook, PC versions of software and 3rd party hardware and basically re-invest thousands to switch to a platform we really don't want. Of course no one wants to do that but the trend has been pushing in this direction for a few years now (Taking away expansion, glassy screens, non-removable batteries and now a crippled SATA HD) and it is alarming.
There you go again with the glossy screens. Really, I want to know what your issue is with them. Secondly, the "crippled" SATA will run at the same speed. The battery lasts twice as long as they used to, so who cares if it's removable?
Apple adds and removes features based on what will sell and what is innovative. While I can understand wanting another FW port, the removal of Express doesn't affect that many people. It's not Apple's fault that 1. You think you need more than you do, 2) You are using portables like desktops and 3) Your expectations are unreasonable.
Take a look at what a lot of musicians are doing. Most of which are using MBPs. Nine Inch Nail's Year Zero album was largely composed on a laptop, both with soft synths and DAW, as well as plugging guitars and such in. The video about Mainstage shows them running their entire live show off of a MBP.
Glossy screens have lots of data, of various levels of thoroughness, regarding studies involving eyestrain and such. I don't work w/color matching myself so I can't speak to whether glossy or matte does the job better.
MBP as desktop replacements>That is exactly how they have been marketed for years, especially the top end model. Also I don't think he was saying a laptop needs all those ports and to be as slim as the Air, but my impression is that a 15" laptop fits fine on the tray, whereas a 17" does not.
Take a look at what a lot of musicians are doing. Most of which are using MBPs. Nine Inch Nail's Year Zero album was largely composed on a laptop, both with soft synths and DAW, as well as plugging guitars and such in. The video about Mainstage shows them running their entire live show off of a MBP.
Glossy screens have lots of data, of various levels of thoroughness, regarding studies involving eyestrain and such. I don't work w/color matching myself so I can't speak to whether glossy or matte does the job better.
MBP as desktop replacements>That is exactly how they have been marketed for years, especially the top end model. Also I don't think he was saying a laptop needs all those ports and to be as slim as the Air, but my impression is that a 15" laptop fits fine on the tray, whereas a 17" does not.
First, I am a musician. There is nothing that the MBP cannot do for most musicians. And don't start with "a lot of musicians." That is utterly vague. You have no idea what that means.
Secondly, the difference between a glossy and matte screen is more than obvious. It doesn't take a photographer to know that glossy wins, hands down. Just look at the difference.
Q: I've noticed that some flat-panel LCDs have glossy screens, while others have matte screens. Is there any advantage to one versus the other?
A: Each screen has its advantages and disadvantages, which is why manufacturers waver between the two. Glossy screens produce an image that's generally regarded as "richer." Admittedly, that's a nebulous term, but essentially it means there is more color depth and vibrancy. On the downside, glossy screens are more susceptible to glare, reflecting light from windows and light bulbs. And they tend to show fingerprints and smudges more readily, especially when they are off.
Matte screens tend to handle glare better, due to a polarized coating over the glass that diffuses ambient light. A side effect of the matte finish is a slight blurring, reduced contrast and a narrower viewing angle.
The only disadvantage is glare. However, both have glare. In my experience, the glare on the glossy is easier to manage because one can see exactly where it is and where it is coming from. I bought a 2006 MBP with a matte screen (after much thought) and I ended up regretting it. I've even used my new MBP at school...under fluorescent lights with large windows behind me. Positioning the display was not an issue at all.
Concerning desktop replacements: That is simply not true. The MBP can act as a desktop replacement for some, but it's not intended to fully replace them for most users. Desktops are still much more powerful and have more connectivity options. That was true even before this update.
BTW, before anyone gets the idea that I'm an Apple Apologist, realize I've been here for 9 years and have been quite critical of Apple many times. This just isn't one of them. The MBP is fantastic.
Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.
Hehe... so true. 99% of the time. We second guess Steve & Co. and then realize, yeah, they were right. Like getting ditching PPC, ditching the floppy, adding USB, etc etc. Every now and then they miss though...Wonder how the Hi Fi is doing on sales!
Hehe... so true. 99% of the time. We second guess Steve & Co. and then realize, yeah, they were right. Like getting ditching PPC, ditching the floppy, adding USB, etc etc. Every now and then they miss though...Wonder how the Hi Fi is doing on sales!
Well, there is a difference between having a well thought out plan and always being right!
First, I am a musician. There is nothing that the MBP cannot do for most musicians. And don't start with "a lot of musicians." That is utterly vague. You have no idea what that means.
"Lots of musicians" and then I link to, guess what, several musicians and otehr creative types exemplifying how they do their thing, most of which with a MBP involved.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Secondly, the difference between a glossy and matte screen is more than obvious. It doesn't take a photographer to know that glossy wins, hands down. Just look at the difference.
The question, and concern for some, is does the glossy screen alter the perception of colors to achieve the results it does. If it does, why would someone who needs careful color matching want to use it?
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Concerning desktop replacements: That is simply not true. The MBP can act as a desktop replacement for some, but it's not intended to fully replace them for most users. Desktops are still much more powerful and have more connectivity options. That was true even before this update.
BTW, before anyone gets the idea that I'm an Apple Apologist, realize I've been here for 9 years and have been quite critical of Apple many times. This just isn't one of them. The MBP is fantastic.
Apple's focus for several years has been on iPods/iPhones and laptops. How you don't need a desktop, you can just buy a laptop. How is that not positioning your MBP as a desktop replacement? I've read the marketing and watched the Stevenotes, the MBP has been pushed as a desktop replacement and still allow you to do everything you want to do. I really don't see how you could view it otherwise.
Will it be a desktop replacement for everyone? No. Some people will need the flexibility and expandability allowed by a desktop system. Most people tho aren't doing anything too taxing and don't need to be tied to a desk. I like the desktop system I have now and w/my daughters being the age they are so far, there hasn't been a huge need for a laptop. Here in a couple of years when I replace my desktop tho, I can very much see myself going the laptop route and my wife likely before that.
"Lots of musicians" and then I link to, guess what, several musicians and otehr creative types exemplifying how they do their thing, most of which with a MBP involved.
That doesn't speak to the kind of setups they have. Apple isn't advertising something their machines can't do. Obviously one can composer with a MBP. That's what it was designed for.
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The question, and concern for some, is does the glossy screen alter the perception of colors to achieve the results it does. If it does, why would someone who needs careful color matching want to use it?
If someone can show that it doesn't reproduce colors as accurately, that's fine. I haven't seen that, however.
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Apple's focus for several years has been on iPods/iPhones and laptops. How you don't need a desktop, you can just buy a laptop. How is that not positioning your MBP as a desktop replacement? I've read the marketing and watched the Stevenotes, the MBP has been pushed as a desktop replacement and still allow you to do everything you want to do. I really don't see how you could view it otherwise.
They are focusing on laptops because that's what the public has been buying. MOST people truly don't need a desktop. But "most" people doesn't include folks with the kind of connectivity needs described here. Consumers and prosumers don't need that. Folks who get into RAID setups and multiple video decks and what not really still need desktops. In other words, you are partially correct, I think. The MBP can be a desktop replacement for the majority of users...just not everyone.
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Will it be a desktop replacement for everyone? No. Some people will need the flexibility and expandability allowed by a desktop system. Most people tho aren't doing anything too taxing and don't need to be tied to a desk. I like the desktop system I have now and w/my daughters being the age they are so far, there hasn't been a huge need for a laptop. Here in a couple of years when I replace my desktop tho, I can very much see myself going the laptop route and my wife likely before that.
OK...it doesn't sound like we disagree then. However, keep in mind we're talking about people that are not in the majority of users. The issue is that there are those in this thread that think their needs represent a large market segment. They don't.
Comments
That was my quote, actually. But I wasn't claiming the ports were melting the machine...just that Apple is really not marketing its machine to people who use them like you do. That much is obvious. Don't get me wrong...I would be irritated if I was you. You had a machine that could do x, y and z, and now it can only do x and perhaps y. My issue is with your comments was the claim that Apple designed these machines specifically for the kind of thing you do...which is not true. That doesn't mean the laptop won't work just fine...it's just that their data shows that you are not a large part of their market (not your field...just your connectivity needs).
Sorry about that- not sure what happened there- have put your name back in.
Didn't get a chance to day to list my spec- too much to do- but prob not going to move any discussion along anyway.
Not that i Buy Turnkey systems- but everywhere with new stock has dropped the 15" from there list of FCP deals. so no the 15" is probably no longer aimed at serious FCP users away from there desktops. hope they sort the ports out in the future as they are great machines. - hope your enjoying yours.
Now Apple has blurred the two lines together, stripped expandability/non-shinebox glass screen options on the 13/15 "Pro" and still don't offer options other manufacturers have on the 17in (The one people like me are now 'supposed to buy'). I honestly don't care if it is called the PRO or HappyTime Funbox just give me the features the competition has had for years now don't take MORE of them away!
I know it makes sense because they are raking in the cash like Robber Barons but using PRO was a marketing tool that separated the features, now PRO has no meaning at all so why even use it? Just to make everyone feel a sense of elitism to separate them from their friends and family?
They're not dumb. But you're making an assumption you shouldn't.
So my *assumption* that they actually know their market is unreasonable? Instead, we should take your assumption...that they actually just pull these changes out of their asses with nothing to back it up in terms of research? Righto.
Now you're going back on what you just said. Over the past five years or so their sales have been very good. Past that timeframe, not so good.
I don't see how I'm doing that.
The iPod is what made them what they are today, and they didn't understand just what they had at first. Once they did, they took good advantage of it. But they fall into things.
I'm not sure why you feel the need to make that rather obvious and rhetorical point. The only thing I can infer is that you are claiming Apple would not be successful without the iPod. I don't want to strawman that point, but I need to ask you if that's what you meant?
My take is that Apple was successful long before the iPod. Granted, the iPod opened their business in ways they couldn't have predicted...from branding to sales of the unit itself, to iTunes.
What does a dockable workstation have to do with anything? You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.
Deal with reality.
There you go again...you're nitpicking every little word choice instead of focusing on what the overall meaning is. The point is Apple didn't design the MBP to do what Graeme is doing. He's not their target market. How anyone could look at their overall marketing strategy and conclude otherwise is beyond me.
But what's ironic is that you just accused me of this:
....You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.
That's exactly what you and Graeme are doing. You're saying "Hey, Apple. I was using a MBP as a desktop. Since I used it that way, that's what you designed it for. Now you changed your design and I have to use it like a powerful mobile workstation, instead of a desktop!" My lord.
You haven;t been around much, have you? Apple's top Powerbooks cost around that price for years, and some PC models cost even more. These weren't some special souped up models either.
I really don't know where you get your information. Visit apple-history.com and check out the prices going back to the first Powerbook. There are only a handful of models that go for that price. Even if you were correct, which you're not, you can't really be claiming that the machine was for only true pros or even that mostly pros bought them.
You know, you can't complain about some minor thing, and then claim that I'm setting up a strawman situation when I mention, in response, something far more important that I wouldn't have mentioned at all if you had not complained in the first place. Do you think that your minor problems are more important than others' more important ones?
Just respond, and don't pretend that the issues I bring up are less important than the ones you bring up.
If you keep doing that it will only continue to show that you don't have much of an argument in response.
I just posted that no, I don't think my comment on what I'd like to see is more important. Are you even reading? And I wasn't complaining. I was noting that it would be nice to have FW400. The difference is I realize it's not a big deal. I also realize that design moves on. Apparently you don't, because you're still stuck on features that less than 5 percent of people use. At most.
I don't care if you're impressed or not. You obviously aren't familiar with the pro market for these machines, and so I am beginning to think there's not much point in continuing this.
You're right, who cares.
I'm dropping it.
Right...don't respond, just run away. I'm asking you to support your assertions with data, and you won't. I even went so far as to estimate and extrapolate some of the possible data points in my argument. If you can show that market is as large as you claim, then please do so. If not, then at least admit it's likely you're wrong.
Sorry about that- not sure what happened there- have put your name back in.
Didn't get a chance to day to list my spec- too much to do- but prob not going to move any discussion along anyway.
Not that i Buy Turnkey systems- but everywhere with new stock has dropped the 15" from there list of FCP deals. so no the 15" is probably no longer aimed at serious FCP users away from there desktops. hope they sort the ports out in the future as they are great machines. - hope your enjoying yours.
Yeah, I am...thanks. That's interesting about the lack of 15"/FCP bundles. Is there anyway you could give a few examples?
Other companies separate "Business" from "Home/Consumer" classes.This way they can offer shiny and colorful machines to college kids and soccer dads. The Business Class range from simple stripped down notebooks to powerhouse dual HD, 4Dimm slots Quad core notebooks. They also offer non-gaming higher end workstation chips if you chose to dish out the money for them.
Now Apple has blurred the two lines together, stripped expandability/non-shinebox glass screen options on the 13/15 "Pro" and still don't offer options other manufacturers have on the 17in (The one people like me are now 'supposed to buy'). I honestly don't care if it is called the PRO or HappyTime Funbox just give me the features the competition has had for years now don't take MORE of them away!
I know it makes sense because they are raking in the cash like Robber Barons but using PRO was a marketing tool that separated the features, now PRO has no meaning at all so why even use it? Just to make everyone feel a sense of elitism to separate them from their friends and family?
See, I don't agree with that. They removed the card slot. Big deal. They realized that people using the machines weren't using the slots in great numbers. They didn't make it less of a "pro" machine. Here, take a look:
MacBook (Consumer):
2.13ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
2GB DDR2 Memory
160GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
Standard keyboard
White polycarbonate shell
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 400 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$999
MacBook Pro 13" (higher end model)
2.53ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
250GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M graphics
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$1499
For $500, you get a unibody enclosure, 25% faster processor, larger HDD, FW800, a 7 hour built-in battery and twice the RAM.
Macbook Pro 15" Middle Config
2.66ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
320GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M +9600M GT 256MB
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$1999
Macbook Pro 15 (best config without bto). I happen to own this model.
2.8ghz Intel Core 2 Duo
4GB DDR2 Memory
500GB hard drive
NVIDIA GeForce 9400M +9600M GT 512MB
7 hour battery
Two USB 2.0 Ports
One FW 800 Port
Ethernet/Wireless, etc.
$2299
For $500 more than the 13", you get a bigger HDD, better graphics and a speed bump. For another $300, you get twice the graphics memory, a faster processor and a 500GB HDD.
Now, tell me there isn't much distinction here. No one ever said "Pro" meant that only video editing professionals should buy the machine.
Yeah, I am...thanks. That's interesting about the lack of 15"/FCP bundles. Is there anyway you could give a few examples?
Only able to give current examples- i.e. only 17" + the usual desktops
(from a google search- i don't use these suppliers- never bought a turnkey system as with apple stuff you hardly ever make a meaningfull saving.)
http://www.tvprogear.com/catalog/App...pment,380.aspx
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/6...y_Systems.html
http://www.powermax.com/parts/show/dv-pk-fcp-mobile
http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/...ory_search=734
http://www.finalcutpro4rent.com/
--------------
Here is a link to the raid set up i have:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond500p.html
Marketed in part for the MBP / FCP - through an esata connection- with multiplier or their own cards PCi/express, i have the http://www.sonnettech.com/product/te...express34.html
It's a great box of tricks and the built in controllers take the strain off the computer.
At present, i have one of the 15" MBP's before they got the glossy screen (am not anti glossy- but like the matt screen) and has both FW400 & 800 ports built in. early 2008 i think?
the video deck at present is a Sony DSR-25 - DVCAM although that changes depending on the viddeo format im working on.
http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/DSR-25.pdf
Did you say at some point you work with audio/music?
See, I don't agree with that. They removed the card slot. Big deal. They realized that people using the machines weren't using the slots in great numbers. They didn't make it less of a "pro" machine. Here, take a look:
Now, tell me there isn't much distinction here. No one ever said "Pro" meant that only video editing professionals should buy the machine.
Okay so you took one of examples why a lot of designers/video/audio/photo people feel shafted and spoke to it but where are the Matte options for the actual 'notebook' sized 13 and 15in? How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?
The point is Apple has made it clear that PRO means nothing (silly as it was to begin with) and if you are a design/film/audio/photo creative you should get the huge 17in and deal with it.. oh and give us $50 more for the matte option we know you want anyway.
NO ONE should argue that for 80% of the market the current MBP line is a fantastic machine, and I agree it is, but there is segment who has been around for over a decade that has slowly watched their options dwindle away. So yeah maybe we are whiny but then again no one has to read the comments either.
Okay so you took one of examples why a lot of designers/video/audio/photo people feel shafted and spoke to it but where are the Matte options for the actual 'notebook' sized 13 and 15in? How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?
The point is Apple has made it clear that PRO means nothing (silly as it was to begin with) and if you are a design/film/audio/photo creative you should get the huge 17in and deal with it.. oh and give us $50 more for the matte option we know you want anyway.
NO ONE should argue that for 80% of the market the current MBP line is a fantastic machine, and I agree it is, but there is segment who has been around for over a decade that has slowly watched their options dwindle away. So yeah maybe we are whiny but then again no one has to read the comments either.
Look, I understand that there are people who are annoyed. I would be as well. But the number of those people is very small. Apple itself says the total number of people who use ExpressCard at all is "single digit." Imagine how low the number is for people that want to do what you're describing? It's sure as hell isn't 20%. The MBP is a fantastic machine for at least 95% of the market. Add to that people who "need" the matte version and it becomes infinitesimal. As an aside, having used the matte and glossy screens in multiple environments for different uses, I can say that the glossy screen is so much better it's not even funny.
Getting back to "pro:" I contend that for the vast majority of pro users, the machine is great.
...How do many users hook up their existing esata devices they already own because they used the express port? What if you wanted to hook up an HDV FW camera AND an external FW/Esata drive at the same time?
1. They aren't being forced to upgrade.
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option?
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video.
Only able to give current examples- i.e. only 17" + the usual desktops
(from a google search- i don't use these suppliers- never bought a turnkey system as with apple stuff you hardly ever make a meaningfull saving.)
http://www.tvprogear.com/catalog/App...pment,380.aspx
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/shop/6...y_Systems.html
http://www.powermax.com/parts/show/dv-pk-fcp-mobile
http://www.broadcaststore.com/store/...ory_search=734
http://www.finalcutpro4rent.com/
--------------
Here is a link to the raid set up i have:
http://www.sonnettech.com/product/fusiond500p.html
Marketed in part for the MBP / FCP - through an esata connection- with multiplier or their own cards PCi/express, i have the http://www.sonnettech.com/product/te...express34.html
It's a great box of tricks and the built in controllers take the strain off the computer.
At present, i have one of the 15" MBP's before they got the glossy screen (am not anti glossy- but like the matt screen) and has both FW400 & 800 ports built in. early 2008 i think?
the video deck at present is a Sony DSR-25 - DVCAM although that changes depending on the viddeo format im working on.
http://www.sony.ca/dvcam/pdfs/DSR-25.pdf
Did you say at some point you work with audio/music?
Thanks for the links. Let me ask...would an additional FW800 port make you happy? I also notice that the majority of those bundles are desktops. That's either because the new MBPs suck that much, or desktops are more suited to the task of serious video editing with external drives and decks.
As for me, I'm a music teacher, actually. I do work with audio, but it's not sophisticated. I use my internal drive (now 500GB, which is more than enough for me). Any video editing I do is done with consumer level software and hardware. Here again though, I would think that unless you need to store 400GB or more at a time, you'd be fine with using the internal drive as long as you backed up the work. Or, one could easily use a USB 2.0 1TB drive, which goes for about $100. That would leave you one more USB port and a FW800 port, plus ethernet. Right?
Look, I understand that there are people who are annoyed. I would be as well. But the number of those people is very small. Apple itself says the total number of people who use ExpressCard at all is "single digit."
Fine I understand that and I even stated that I understand I (and others) are in the minority here but I wasn't polled on the EC, none of my pro buddies were either so I guess our votes don't count. Who did they poll? How did they poll? Where did they poll? First rule of statistics and poling is that you can find infinite ways to make the data say what you want it to say. If you polled only creative teams it would be 90% but if you only polled married couples over 50 yrs of age then you would get 1%.
Imagine how low the number is for people that want to do what you're describing? It's sure as hell isn't 20%. The MBP is a fantastic machine for at least 95% of the market. Add to that people who "need" the matte version and it becomes infinitesimal.
That is why Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 'business class' machines and portable workstations with mattes screens, actual workstation class graphics cards, 4+ USB ports / FW / ESATA? I guess they only sell a handful a year to all of us 1%. You might as well say 11ty Billion customers love the new MBP because if we are going to just make up numbers I can too.
As an aside, having used the matte and glossy screens in multiple environments for different uses, I can say that the glossy screen is so much better it's not even funny. Getting back to "pro:" I contend that for the vast majority of pro users, the machine is great. 1
And I'm supposed to change my preference because you say so? Now that you mention it I agree! *sarcasm*
1. They aren't being forced to upgrade. Unless, like me, you need a portable but they offer nothing you want. Sucks to be me I know and that isn't yours or anyone else problem but still an issue for me and many other creative types.
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option? Yes it is too large for a portable machine, won't fit on a tray in coach while traveling and doesn't even offer things like 4 dimm slots, 2x hard drive bays or more ports compared to the competition to justify the size/cost
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video.[/QUOTE] No because USB has terrible sustained bandwidth even compared to FW400 let alone FW800 or ESATA. Plus HDV and most older cameras use FW not USB. (I know AVCHD use USB)
As for me, I'm a music teacher, actually. I do work with audio, but it's not sophisticated. I use my internal drive (now 500GB, which is more than enough for me). Any video editing I do is done with consumer level software and hardware. Here again though, I would think that unless you need to store 400GB or more at a time, you'd be fine with using the internal drive as long as you backed up the work. Or, one could easily use a USB 2.0 1TB drive, which goes for about $100. That would leave you one more USB port and a FW800 port, plus ethernet. Right?
You also have to understand many people have $10k invested in Apple hardware, software and Mac specific 3rd party hardware. If Apple continues this downward trend of taking away features we have relied on for years that doesn't just mean 'get a Dell and shut up' we'd have to get a new Desktop, notebook, PC versions of software and 3rd party hardware and basically re-invest thousands to switch to a platform we really don't want. Of course no one wants to do that but the trend has been pushing in this direction for a few years now (Taking away expansion, glassy screens, non-removable batteries and now a crippled SATA HD) and it is alarming.
Fine I understand that and I even stated that I understand I (and others) are in the minority here but I wasn't polled on the EC, none of my pro buddies were either so I guess our votes don't count. Who did they poll? How did they poll? Where did they poll? First rule of statistics and poling is that you can find infinite ways to make the data say what you want it to say. If you polled only creative teams it would be 90% but if you only polled married couples over 50 yrs of age then you would get 1%.
Who said anything about polling? As if that's the only way they can tell what's happening with the machines they sell?
That is why Dell, HP, and Lenovo all offer 'business class' machines and portable workstations with mattes screens, actual workstation class graphics cards, 4+ USB ports / FW / ESATA? I guess they only sell a handful a year to all of us 1%. You might as well say 11ty Billion customers love the new MBP because if we are going to just make up numbers I can too.
Don't be an ass. You used the term "the market" in the context of the MBP market, not the overall laptop market. Now, once you see your 80% number is complete bullshit, you change your tune. Get real.
And I'm supposed to change my preference because you say so? Now that you mention it I agree! *sarcasm*
Just fucking relax. I was only stating my opinion from having used both. In fact, I've never met someone who has used both consistently that disagrees. Obviously you think that having a matte screen is some kind of pro status symbol.
1. They aren't being forced to upgrade. Unless, like me, you need a portable but they offer nothing you want. Sucks to be me I know and that isn't yours or anyone else problem but still an issue for me and many other creative types.
What's wrong with your current portable?
2. Since you're basically talking about desktop functionality, is the 17" such a bad option? Yes it is too large for a portable machine, won't fit on a tray in coach while traveling and doesn't even offer things like 4 dimm slots, 2x hard drive bays or more ports compared to the competition to justify the size/cost
3. Can't USB 2.0 solutions work as well? They run at sufficient speeds for video. No because USB has terrible sustained bandwidth even compared to FW400 let alone FW800 or ESATA. Plus HDV and most older cameras use FW not USB. (I know AVCHD use USB)
That's fair enough. I was just asking.
You also have to understand many people have $10k invested in Apple hardware, software and Mac specific 3rd party hardware. If Apple continues this downward trend of taking away features we have relied on for years that doesn't just mean 'get a Dell and shut up' we'd have to get a new Desktop, notebook, PC versions of software and 3rd party hardware and basically re-invest thousands to switch to a platform we really don't want. Of course no one wants to do that but the trend has been pushing in this direction for a few years now (Taking away expansion, glassy screens, non-removable batteries and now a crippled SATA HD) and it is alarming.
There you go again with the glossy screens. Really, I want to know what your issue is with them. Secondly, the "crippled" SATA will run at the same speed. The battery lasts twice as long as they used to, so who cares if it's removable?
Apple adds and removes features based on what will sell and what is innovative. While I can understand wanting another FW port, the removal of Express doesn't affect that many people. It's not Apple's fault that 1. You think you need more than you do, 2) You are using portables like desktops and 3) Your expectations are unreasonable.
Take a look at some of the folks here and what they are doing. Many of them are utilizing the MBPs for exactly these type of things.
http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/action/
Take a look at what a lot of musicians are doing. Most of which are using MBPs. Nine Inch Nail's Year Zero album was largely composed on a laptop, both with soft synths and DAW, as well as plugging guitars and such in. The video about Mainstage shows them running their entire live show off of a MBP.
Glossy screens have lots of data, of various levels of thoroughness, regarding studies involving eyestrain and such. I don't work w/color matching myself so I can't speak to whether glossy or matte does the job better.
MBP as desktop replacements>That is exactly how they have been marketed for years, especially the top end model. Also I don't think he was saying a laptop needs all those ports and to be as slim as the Air, but my impression is that a 15" laptop fits fine on the tray, whereas a 17" does not.
http://www.apple.com/pro/
Take a look at some of the folks here and what they are doing. Many of them are utilizing the MBPs for exactly these type of things.
http://www.apple.com/logicstudio/action/
Take a look at what a lot of musicians are doing. Most of which are using MBPs. Nine Inch Nail's Year Zero album was largely composed on a laptop, both with soft synths and DAW, as well as plugging guitars and such in. The video about Mainstage shows them running their entire live show off of a MBP.
Glossy screens have lots of data, of various levels of thoroughness, regarding studies involving eyestrain and such. I don't work w/color matching myself so I can't speak to whether glossy or matte does the job better.
MBP as desktop replacements>That is exactly how they have been marketed for years, especially the top end model. Also I don't think he was saying a laptop needs all those ports and to be as slim as the Air, but my impression is that a 15" laptop fits fine on the tray, whereas a 17" does not.
First, I am a musician. There is nothing that the MBP cannot do for most musicians. And don't start with "a lot of musicians." That is utterly vague. You have no idea what that means.
Secondly, the difference between a glossy and matte screen is more than obvious. It doesn't take a photographer to know that glossy wins, hands down. Just look at the difference.
http://www.onedigitallife.com/images...y-vs-matte.jpg
From Popular Mechanics:
Q: I've noticed that some flat-panel LCDs have glossy screens, while others have matte screens. Is there any advantage to one versus the other?
A: Each screen has its advantages and disadvantages, which is why manufacturers waver between the two. Glossy screens produce an image that's generally regarded as "richer." Admittedly, that's a nebulous term, but essentially it means there is more color depth and vibrancy. On the downside, glossy screens are more susceptible to glare, reflecting light from windows and light bulbs. And they tend to show fingerprints and smudges more readily, especially when they are off.
Matte screens tend to handle glare better, due to a polarized coating over the glass that diffuses ambient light. A side effect of the matte finish is a slight blurring, reduced contrast and a narrower viewing angle.
The only disadvantage is glare. However, both have glare. In my experience, the glare on the glossy is easier to manage because one can see exactly where it is and where it is coming from. I bought a 2006 MBP with a matte screen (after much thought) and I ended up regretting it. I've even used my new MBP at school...under fluorescent lights with large windows behind me. Positioning the display was not an issue at all.
Concerning desktop replacements: That is simply not true. The MBP can act as a desktop replacement for some, but it's not intended to fully replace them for most users. Desktops are still much more powerful and have more connectivity options. That was true even before this update.
BTW, before anyone gets the idea that I'm an Apple Apologist, realize I've been here for 9 years and have been quite critical of Apple many times. This just isn't one of them. The MBP is fantastic.
Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.
Well, there is a difference between having a well thought out plan and always being right!
First, I am a musician. There is nothing that the MBP cannot do for most musicians. And don't start with "a lot of musicians." That is utterly vague. You have no idea what that means.
"Lots of musicians" and then I link to, guess what, several musicians and otehr creative types exemplifying how they do their thing, most of which with a MBP involved.
Secondly, the difference between a glossy and matte screen is more than obvious. It doesn't take a photographer to know that glossy wins, hands down. Just look at the difference.
The question, and concern for some, is does the glossy screen alter the perception of colors to achieve the results it does. If it does, why would someone who needs careful color matching want to use it?
Concerning desktop replacements: That is simply not true. The MBP can act as a desktop replacement for some, but it's not intended to fully replace them for most users. Desktops are still much more powerful and have more connectivity options. That was true even before this update.
BTW, before anyone gets the idea that I'm an Apple Apologist, realize I've been here for 9 years and have been quite critical of Apple many times. This just isn't one of them. The MBP is fantastic.
Apple's focus for several years has been on iPods/iPhones and laptops. How you don't need a desktop, you can just buy a laptop. How is that not positioning your MBP as a desktop replacement? I've read the marketing and watched the Stevenotes, the MBP has been pushed as a desktop replacement and still allow you to do everything you want to do. I really don't see how you could view it otherwise.
Will it be a desktop replacement for everyone? No. Some people will need the flexibility and expandability allowed by a desktop system. Most people tho aren't doing anything too taxing and don't need to be tied to a desk. I like the desktop system I have now and w/my daughters being the age they are so far, there hasn't been a huge need for a laptop. Here in a couple of years when I replace my desktop tho, I can very much see myself going the laptop route and my wife likely before that.
"Lots of musicians" and then I link to, guess what, several musicians and otehr creative types exemplifying how they do their thing, most of which with a MBP involved.
That doesn't speak to the kind of setups they have. Apple isn't advertising something their machines can't do. Obviously one can composer with a MBP. That's what it was designed for.
The question, and concern for some, is does the glossy screen alter the perception of colors to achieve the results it does. If it does, why would someone who needs careful color matching want to use it?
If someone can show that it doesn't reproduce colors as accurately, that's fine. I haven't seen that, however.
Apple's focus for several years has been on iPods/iPhones and laptops. How you don't need a desktop, you can just buy a laptop. How is that not positioning your MBP as a desktop replacement? I've read the marketing and watched the Stevenotes, the MBP has been pushed as a desktop replacement and still allow you to do everything you want to do. I really don't see how you could view it otherwise.
They are focusing on laptops because that's what the public has been buying. MOST people truly don't need a desktop. But "most" people doesn't include folks with the kind of connectivity needs described here. Consumers and prosumers don't need that. Folks who get into RAID setups and multiple video decks and what not really still need desktops. In other words, you are partially correct, I think. The MBP can be a desktop replacement for the majority of users...just not everyone.
Will it be a desktop replacement for everyone? No. Some people will need the flexibility and expandability allowed by a desktop system. Most people tho aren't doing anything too taxing and don't need to be tied to a desk. I like the desktop system I have now and w/my daughters being the age they are so far, there hasn't been a huge need for a laptop. Here in a couple of years when I replace my desktop tho, I can very much see myself going the laptop route and my wife likely before that.
OK...it doesn't sound like we disagree then. However, keep in mind we're talking about people that are not in the majority of users. The issue is that there are those in this thread that think their needs represent a large market segment. They don't.