<strong>Eugene, please read my post and comment on what you think about it. I'd like to see what you have to say...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would be totally fine with tabs as an option if I believed they wouldn't abuse that option ... tabuse? Anyway, if tabs didn't come with all the problems BuonRotto, Amorph, Kickaha, and others have listed, then they would be perfectly fine. It's too bad they do...(and I can't think of any real way to fix them.)
Safari is obviously supposed to be lean. I don't think adding redundant features really helps. Tabs just add complexity without really speeding things up. In my mind, tabs actually slow things down in most cases. Adding tabs means defining additional widgets while adding a new window defines no new widgets.
And another thing I just thought of. Tabs work at the expense of the Window and Dock menus. If you have a huge number of tabs in a window, they of course won't show up in the Window or Dock menu. It's sort of like how web pages designed around Flash aren't navigable by the back/forward/stop/reload buttons. It's this kind of inconsistency that makes me go bonkers.
Visually I would prefer a tinch of space between the tabs shown in the screenshots posted so far.
Also, some clever means of providing quick identity to the tabs would be swell.
When I tell you that I may sometimes have as many as 14 open windows going it isn't a lie. Organizing with tabs would truly help me. Going to the WINDOWS tab on the menubar is as SLOW a method as any for looking for the "right" window. Comman-tilde is just as bad if you're slamming between FOURTEEN open windows. Do I close some of the windows and come back later? NO. I have to show things to colleagues and discuss the contents of those web pages at any given time.
Wild stuff this.
Saying that the tabs don't look right is a specious argument. They use the same color as the "surface cladding" of the browser window, with non-selected tabbed windows using a darkened look. The Bookmarks Bar uses a darkened appearance as its mouseover because it is an impression of the bookmark (or bookmark folder) being slightly depressed in recognition of the mouseover. It is not a permanent position, and the "mechanical" paradigm remains unchallenged.
EDIT: I would like to add that I'd like the toolbar collapse button jewel on the top righthand side to collapse all of this mess when I'm trying to use more screen real estate.
<strong>Mousing to the Window menu, which really isn't all that static as it changes position from app to app, isn't hard at all. Neither is mousing to a dynamic location, if it's location varys only horizontally. It is well highlighted and quite obvious; therefore organisms with at least the mental capabilities of a chimpanzee probably wont have a problem with it. But difficulty isn't the question; rather, time and efficiency are.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Using tabs does require more fine motor skills than using a menu at the top of the screen or the keyboard. The window menu at the top of the screen is always in the exact same place when you are using Safari. You can just slam your mouse cursor to the top of the screen with no chance of going past your target. With a tab near the top of the screen, but not at the top, you have to slow down your mouse movement and precisely click on the spot you want, not too high and not too low. That takes time. It is even more of an issue for people on laptops who are using touchpads.
Not related to this reply, but on the screen size front:
Having a row of tabs takes up screen space. It is just as efficient to have two windows open and tiled than to have one window with two tabs. It is wasteful of screenspace if you only have one tab open. If you have three or more tabs, then it does save on space as opposed to having multiple windows, but if you have much more than three tabs, then a new problem is created as they start to get unreadable.
You can try to make them more readable by making the browser window larger. Unfortunately, that requires more mousing from the user and it also wastes screen space because now every web page on every tab in the window is wider than it needs to be, and the browser wastes much more screen space than it needs to which obscures things in the background. Also, if you have the screen space to make your browser windows unnecessarily large, then you have the screen space to have multiple normal-sized browser windows open and don't need tabs anyway.
Another option to solve the tab name readability problem is to have multiple windows each with multiple tabs open. That also creates a problem because it requires you to cycle through each window and scan each tab to see which one you are looking for. Using this method, you have to alternate between opening new windows and opening new tabs, which also means you have to memorize more controls.
Finally, the best way to solve the tab name readability and screen size problems is to just not have tabs.
The tabs in the pref panes do count as bad UI. Why should I be forced to look at one control panel at a time? What if I want to quickly compare settings in two pref panes at once? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I can't believe you even brought this up.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha don't dispute the superior wisdom of Eugene! Somehow I never thought being unable to see two preference panes at once as any big hinderance. I've never once thought "dammit i wish i could see my Keyboard Prefs next to my Energy Saver Prefs!!"...
I think you just enjoy covering your desktop in window after window after window after window after window after window after window.... <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
(btw after finally seeing it in action, i DO think that Apples tab implementation still needs polish... but not bad for a hidden feature in an unreleased beta browser)
<strong>Sounds like most tab users are so brainwashed by Windows that they've not taken the time to learn how to use OS X properly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Not even worth touching that one, but, what the heck, I will tell you this, I like TABs in a browser, heck I wish we had TABs in every application to show the windows underneath for quick click to bring it to the front, but anyhow, I have been using Macs since 1984, never have purchased a PC and don't plan to because I HATE windows. I therefor don't think I've been brainwashed by Windows. <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" /> I'm thinking you are the one being influenced by Windows. You feel TABS have some kind of association with Windows and being that you can't stand Windows you hate TABS. TABS are a good UI design. Yes, I agree that Microsoft abuses this UI design or does not use it right, but TABs when used right are the quickest way to get to the window you want, look, even Apple thinks so, have you been to their web site lately?
::waving "agree to disagree" flag over head and pointing back to post mentioning that all of our tanks are stuck in the mud and suggesting that we now all go down to the pub and have a beer and talk about how ugly Steve Ballmer is::
Ha don't dispute the superior wisdom of Eugene! Somehow I never thought being unable to see two preference panes at once as any big hinderance. I've never once thought "dammit i wish i could see my Keyboard Prefs next to my Energy Saver Prefs!!"...
I think you just enjoy covering your desktop in window after window after window after window after window after window after window.... <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Tell me why I should have to make my Energy Saver pane go away just so I can fix the Screen Effects delay. Or when I'm troubleshooting networking issues, why I should only be able to work with the Sharing, Network, Remote Desktop, SharePoints, etc. preference panes one at a time?
I must admit that I now imagine Eugene's desktop chockablock FULL of windows....and I have a pretty powerful imagination, so the number of windows I'm seeing is pretty frickin' phenomenal.....omigod at the Windows!!!
This is hysterical!
(I am, by the way, drinking beer now....I like Eugene, so this isn't to be construed as mean...just really, really funny....and FULL of windows)
<strong>I would be totally fine with tabs as an option if I believed they wouldn't abuse that option ... tabuse? Anyway, if tabs didn't come with all the problems BuonRotto, Amorph, Kickaha, and others have listed, then they would be perfectly fine. It's too bad they do...(and I can't think of any real way to fix them.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see how they are being abused. I do agree that they have their inherent problems, but so to does using the Dock and Window menu, and creating tons of windows. I can handle three windows quite easily. Fifteen? Clutter incarnate. Tabs don't handle it well either. Seeing a title in the window menu doesn't sparks my memory no more than a tab within the window itself.
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Safari is obviously supposed to be lean. I don't think adding redundant features really helps. Tabs just add complexity without really speeding things up. In my mind, tabs actually slow things down in most cases. Adding tabs means defining additional widgets while adding a new window defines no new widgets.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, let's not include features that might perform tasks somewhat similar to what's already there. To hell with icon and list view in the Finder. Let's take out the window selection from the Dock; it's already taken care of. And I don't need that damn PPP menu extra, that's what Internet Connect is for!
God forbid we learn something new, perhaps for the better. So what if the tabs aren't static, they can't be if they display changing content. I suppose that you argue for a better solution to the ever-changing, chaotic buddy list as well? A few tabs are complex only to the simpleminded. No one sane is going to dump 15 sites into one window and expect anything good to come of it. Don't be so narrow-minded.
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>And another thing I just thought of. Tabs work at the expense of the Window and Dock menus. If you have a huge number of tabs in a window, they of course won't show up in the Window or Dock menu. It's sort of like how web pages designed around Flash aren't navigable by the back/forward/stop/reload buttons. It's this kind of inconsistency that makes me go bonkers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
With their current, unreleased, beta, just barely implimented and not even meant for the public functionality, yes. However, it would be rather neat for the tabs open in a window to be listed within the menu item representing the window itself, like the Recent Items menu.
You still haven't responded to any of my points, really. I bring up few good points about how browsers already define their own, inconsistant-with-everything-else UI. It's just the way browsers and the web are meant to work. As someone else previously said, tabs are a good way of organizing large chunks of information not meant to be read at the same time. I don't know about you, but without the aid of a chameleon's independantly moving eyes, I have problems reading two things at once.
<strong>I bring up few good points about how browsers already define their own, inconsistant-with-everything-else UI. It's just the way browsers and the web are meant to work. As someone else previously said, tabs are a good way of organizing large chunks of information not meant to be read at the same time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[I should be kicking myself for getting back into this but...]
The whole "it's just the way browser and the web are meant to work" is a whole 'nother can of worms. Let's not even get started!
Truth is, there's no perfect solution for dealing with lots of data in any constricted area (the screen, that be). The Dock and tabbed browsing are both very demonstrable examples of the trade-offs one has to make between maximizing info, maximizing access to that info, maximizing legibility and minimizing the learning curve.
The main idea of Aqua is that it is a document-centric experience -- the ability to share data among many apps and files. The windowing system and the pasteboard hold the content. The menubar and utility windows are the tool chests for manipulating the stuff. The Dock is meant to help make all that data accessible and organized. Tabs and/or tabbed browsing isn't the end of the world. But it would be nice to see the three basic elements of OS X work togather simply and clearly without the need for stuff like this. Everything else is extraneous to at least some degree. I might be looking for a solution that is too "elegant" in its economy of means, but tabs to me are usually superfluous.
I like tabs as a way to compact data that isn't the user's content so that their content (be it a web page, a Word document or a picture) has as much space as possible to be seen and manipulated. So for example I like Andrew Stone's use of tabs in his inspectors. I don't have problems with tabs in other utility windows. (System prefs are in this nether-region between utility and content, aren't they? ) But why compromise the windowing system with tabs, and why not make the Dock earn its pay? Granted, I do think the Dock can use some improvement given what I said above about the inherent compromises of its role. But I would like to think that the answer isn't in crutches like tabs but in a more sophisticated document organizer, which the Dock is or should be.
It's not just the web not working how the UI guidelines say it should, browsers inherently don't work that way either. Web browsers, to be specific. And it's treading on thin ice to say that web pages are merely documents. If that were so, these forums must be the result of wizardry!
Please do this for me. Hold down command, and press the 'N' key on your keyboard, oh, say, about 15 times. Observe what happens. Windows are all over the place. When they reach the edge of your screen, they start on the other edge.
Using the Window menu to organize this living hell is one way around this 'problem.' Tabs can also be a solution. They have the virtue of keeping everything in one window. And enough of this MDI crap. All browsers are MDI. You're just so used to the way they work, it doesn't occur to you. They also have the drawback of being limited in space in which to present info on what it is they display, thus when there are a large number of them, things get hairy. I rarely have more than five windows at a time, and usually three or less.
But as I've said, Apple does need to incorporate tabs with the Dock menu and Window menu.
But, Eugene, no one is forcing you to use them. Why are you trying to force people not to? Why not let people use what they prefer?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because every action has a consequence, small or large. The consequence I see is conformance with (promotion of) the Windows UI model. It's like the other thread I started... Apple only added the single-window app quit/close behavior because Windows users were leaving apps open unknowingly.
I'm not capable of forcing Apple or you to do anything. You should think about how tabs really benefit your user experience though.
i'm using tabbed tabs right now....i have the bookmark bar on with the site i use the most and i have tabs open to the sites i use the most...kinda redundant right now...g
<strong>It's like the other thread I started... Apple only added the single-window app quit/close behavior because Windows users were leaving apps open unknowingly.</strong><hr></blockquote>? I remember there being close & quit apps in the original Mac System software in 1985.
Comments
<strong>Eugene, please read my post and comment on what you think about it. I'd like to see what you have to say...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I would be totally fine with tabs as an option if I believed they wouldn't abuse that option ... tabuse? Anyway, if tabs didn't come with all the problems BuonRotto, Amorph, Kickaha, and others have listed, then they would be perfectly fine. It's too bad they do...(and I can't think of any real way to fix them.)
Safari is obviously supposed to be lean. I don't think adding redundant features really helps. Tabs just add complexity without really speeding things up. In my mind, tabs actually slow things down in most cases. Adding tabs means defining additional widgets while adding a new window defines no new widgets.
And another thing I just thought of. Tabs work at the expense of the Window and Dock menus. If you have a huge number of tabs in a window, they of course won't show up in the Window or Dock menu. It's sort of like how web pages designed around Flash aren't navigable by the back/forward/stop/reload buttons. It's this kind of inconsistency that makes me go bonkers.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
Also, some clever means of providing quick identity to the tabs would be swell.
When I tell you that I may sometimes have as many as 14 open windows going it isn't a lie. Organizing with tabs would truly help me. Going to the WINDOWS tab on the menubar is as SLOW a method as any for looking for the "right" window. Comman-tilde is just as bad if you're slamming between FOURTEEN open windows. Do I close some of the windows and come back later? NO. I have to show things to colleagues and discuss the contents of those web pages at any given time.
Wild stuff this.
Saying that the tabs don't look right is a specious argument. They use the same color as the "surface cladding" of the browser window, with non-selected tabbed windows using a darkened look. The Bookmarks Bar uses a darkened appearance as its mouseover because it is an impression of the bookmark (or bookmark folder) being slightly depressed in recognition of the mouseover. It is not a permanent position, and the "mechanical" paradigm remains unchallenged.
EDIT: I would like to add that I'd like the toolbar collapse button jewel on the top righthand side to collapse all of this mess when I'm trying to use more screen real estate.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: drewprops ]</p>
<strong>Mousing to the Window menu, which really isn't all that static as it changes position from app to app, isn't hard at all. Neither is mousing to a dynamic location, if it's location varys only horizontally. It is well highlighted and quite obvious; therefore organisms with at least the mental capabilities of a chimpanzee probably wont have a problem with it. But difficulty isn't the question; rather, time and efficiency are.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Using tabs does require more fine motor skills than using a menu at the top of the screen or the keyboard. The window menu at the top of the screen is always in the exact same place when you are using Safari. You can just slam your mouse cursor to the top of the screen with no chance of going past your target. With a tab near the top of the screen, but not at the top, you have to slow down your mouse movement and precisely click on the spot you want, not too high and not too low. That takes time. It is even more of an issue for people on laptops who are using touchpads.
Not related to this reply, but on the screen size front:
Having a row of tabs takes up screen space. It is just as efficient to have two windows open and tiled than to have one window with two tabs. It is wasteful of screenspace if you only have one tab open. If you have three or more tabs, then it does save on space as opposed to having multiple windows, but if you have much more than three tabs, then a new problem is created as they start to get unreadable.
You can try to make them more readable by making the browser window larger. Unfortunately, that requires more mousing from the user and it also wastes screen space because now every web page on every tab in the window is wider than it needs to be, and the browser wastes much more screen space than it needs to which obscures things in the background. Also, if you have the screen space to make your browser windows unnecessarily large, then you have the screen space to have multiple normal-sized browser windows open and don't need tabs anyway.
Another option to solve the tab name readability problem is to have multiple windows each with multiple tabs open. That also creates a problem because it requires you to cycle through each window and scan each tab to see which one you are looking for. Using this method, you have to alternate between opening new windows and opening new tabs, which also means you have to memorize more controls.
Finally, the best way to solve the tab name readability and screen size problems is to just not have tabs.
<strong>
The tabs in the pref panes do count as bad UI. Why should I be forced to look at one control panel at a time? What if I want to quickly compare settings in two pref panes at once? <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
I can't believe you even brought this up.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha don't dispute the superior wisdom of Eugene!
I think you just enjoy covering your desktop in window after window after window after window after window after window after window.... <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" />
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: dviant ]</p>
(btw after finally seeing it in action, i DO think that Apples tab implementation still needs polish... but not bad for a hidden feature in an unreleased beta browser)
<strong>Sounds like most tab users are so brainwashed by Windows that they've not taken the time to learn how to use OS X properly.</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> Not even worth touching that one, but, what the heck, I will tell you this, I like TABs in a browser, heck I wish we had TABs in every application to show the windows underneath for quick click to bring it to the front, but anyhow, I have been using Macs since 1984, never have purchased a PC and don't plan to because I HATE windows. I therefor don't think I've been brainwashed by Windows. <img src="graemlins/cancer.gif" border="0" alt="[cancer]" /> I'm thinking you are the one being influenced by Windows. You feel TABS have some kind of association with Windows and being that you can't stand Windows you hate TABS. TABS are a good UI design. Yes, I agree that Microsoft abuses this UI design or does not use it right, but TABs when used right are the quickest way to get to the window you want, look, even Apple thinks so, have you been to their web site lately?
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
<strong>
Ha don't dispute the superior wisdom of Eugene!
I think you just enjoy covering your desktop in window after window after window after window after window after window after window.... <img src="graemlins/surprised.gif" border="0" alt="[surprised]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Tell me why I should have to make my Energy Saver pane go away just so I can fix the Screen Effects delay. Or when I'm troubleshooting networking issues, why I should only be able to work with the Sharing, Network, Remote Desktop, SharePoints, etc. preference panes one at a time?
Like I said, I'm a multitasker.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
This is hysterical!
(I am, by the way, drinking beer now....I like Eugene, so this isn't to be construed as mean...just really, really funny....and FULL of windows)
hehe
And now back to Joe Millionaire...
g
<strong>I would be totally fine with tabs as an option if I believed they wouldn't abuse that option ... tabuse? Anyway, if tabs didn't come with all the problems BuonRotto, Amorph, Kickaha, and others have listed, then they would be perfectly fine. It's too bad they do...(and I can't think of any real way to fix them.)</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't see how they are being abused. I do agree that they have their inherent problems, but so to does using the Dock and Window menu, and creating tons of windows. I can handle three windows quite easily. Fifteen? Clutter incarnate. Tabs don't handle it well either. Seeing a title in the window menu doesn't sparks my memory no more than a tab within the window itself.
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>Safari is obviously supposed to be lean. I don't think adding redundant features really helps. Tabs just add complexity without really speeding things up. In my mind, tabs actually slow things down in most cases. Adding tabs means defining additional widgets while adding a new window defines no new widgets.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, let's not include features that might perform tasks somewhat similar to what's already there. To hell with icon and list view in the Finder. Let's take out the window selection from the Dock; it's already taken care of. And I don't need that damn PPP menu extra, that's what Internet Connect is for!
God forbid we learn something new, perhaps for the better. So what if the tabs aren't static, they can't be if they display changing content. I suppose that you argue for a better solution to the ever-changing, chaotic buddy list as well? A few tabs are complex only to the simpleminded. No one sane is going to dump 15 sites into one window and expect anything good to come of it. Don't be so narrow-minded.
[quote]Originally posted by Eugene:
<strong>And another thing I just thought of. Tabs work at the expense of the Window and Dock menus. If you have a huge number of tabs in a window, they of course won't show up in the Window or Dock menu. It's sort of like how web pages designed around Flash aren't navigable by the back/forward/stop/reload buttons. It's this kind of inconsistency that makes me go bonkers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
With their current, unreleased, beta, just barely implimented and not even meant for the public functionality, yes. However, it would be rather neat for the tabs open in a window to be listed within the menu item representing the window itself, like the Recent Items menu.
You still haven't responded to any of my points, really. I bring up few good points about how browsers already define their own, inconsistant-with-everything-else UI. It's just the way browsers and the web are meant to work. As someone else previously said, tabs are a good way of organizing large chunks of information not meant to be read at the same time. I don't know about you, but without the aid of a chameleon's independantly moving eyes, I have problems reading two things at once.
<strong>I bring up few good points about how browsers already define their own, inconsistant-with-everything-else UI. It's just the way browsers and the web are meant to work. As someone else previously said, tabs are a good way of organizing large chunks of information not meant to be read at the same time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[I should be kicking myself for getting back into this but...]
The whole "it's just the way browser and the web are meant to work" is a whole 'nother can of worms. Let's not even get started!
Truth is, there's no perfect solution for dealing with lots of data in any constricted area (the screen, that be). The Dock and tabbed browsing are both very demonstrable examples of the trade-offs one has to make between maximizing info, maximizing access to that info, maximizing legibility and minimizing the learning curve.
The main idea of Aqua is that it is a document-centric experience -- the ability to share data among many apps and files. The windowing system and the pasteboard hold the content. The menubar and utility windows are the tool chests for manipulating the stuff. The Dock is meant to help make all that data accessible and organized. Tabs and/or tabbed browsing isn't the end of the world. But it would be nice to see the three basic elements of OS X work togather simply and clearly without the need for stuff like this. Everything else is extraneous to at least some degree. I might be looking for a solution that is too "elegant" in its economy of means, but tabs to me are usually superfluous.
I like tabs as a way to compact data that isn't the user's content so that their content (be it a web page, a Word document or a picture) has as much space as possible to be seen and manipulated. So for example I like Andrew Stone's use of tabs in his inspectors. I don't have problems with tabs in other utility windows. (System prefs are in this nether-region between utility and content, aren't they?
[cleaned up a bit]
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
Please do this for me. Hold down command, and press the 'N' key on your keyboard, oh, say, about 15 times. Observe what happens. Windows are all over the place. When they reach the edge of your screen, they start on the other edge.
Using the Window menu to organize this living hell is one way around this 'problem.' Tabs can also be a solution. They have the virtue of keeping everything in one window. And enough of this MDI crap. All browsers are MDI. You're just so used to the way they work, it doesn't occur to you. They also have the drawback of being limited in space in which to present info on what it is they display, thus when there are a large number of them, things get hairy. I rarely have more than five windows at a time, and usually three or less.
But as I've said, Apple does need to incorporate tabs with the Dock menu and Window menu.
<strong>
Tabs add consistency and reduce clutter.
But, Eugene, no one is forcing you to use them. Why are you trying to force people not to? Why not let people use what they prefer?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Because every action has a consequence, small or large. The consequence I see is conformance with (promotion of) the Windows UI model. It's like the other thread I started... Apple only added the single-window app quit/close behavior because Windows users were leaving apps open unknowingly.
I'm not capable of forcing Apple or you to do anything. You should think about how tabs really benefit your user experience though.
<strong>But as I've said, Apple does need to incorporate tabs with the Dock menu and Window menu.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When should Apple incorporate tabbed tabs? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
Tabs enhance my user experience.
Thank you Eugene!
(note: this applies to Eugene's post ABOVE the post above my post.....how was I to know he'd post again?)
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: drewprops ]</p>
<strong>It's like the other thread I started... Apple only added the single-window app quit/close behavior because Windows users were leaving apps open unknowingly.</strong><hr></blockquote>? I remember there being close & quit apps in the original Mac System software in 1985.