I do remember going to computer labs in college and seeing people having trouble with out of memory errors, and then going to the application menu and seeing 15 apps and having to quit them to free up memory.
But with OS X I don't think there's any reason to quit an app, because virtual memory is handled better than it used to be.
I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's a Windows carry-over though. I think it's more likely that it's a holdover from the desk-accessory days, when apps without documents, even if they had their own menubar, would quit on close.
<strong>I understand Apple's logic that single-window apps -- the ones that basically need an open window to do anything (iTunes, iPhoto, etc.) could or maybe should quit when you close its window. However, the window should therefore have a "quit" widget that, while related, isn't confused with a close widget. If Apple doesn't want to do that, then they probably should not have apps quit when you close their last window.
apple might make the case that an app like itunes CAN still have functionality, even when the last window is closed, by way of its dock icon (pause, play, next track, etc.)
I agree that the close widget/quit action is not a good UI element, however Apple probably implemented this in certain Apps because of Windows. My suggestion would be that all apps conform to the quit menu/command-q, however make it so that when the lst window of an open app is closed, a sheet comes down which asks if you want to quit this app. This way, the user knows when an App is going to be quit, and UI integrity is preserved.
<strong>It's recommended by Apple that single window applications quit when the window is closed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can have it two ways:
Either all apps quit on closing the last window or none do.
The dumbest of users should be able to see whether an app quits on closing the last window.
I suggest the following. Since Apple claims metallic windows are to resemble hardware, they should not be treated just as normal windows with different looks. So we cannot have a multidocument app with metallic windows. So if an app has metallic windows, it claims that it can have only one and it will quit after the window is closed.
Apps that have only one window (an "app-window") should quit when that window is closed. Apps that have multiple windows, ie creates new documents within the app should treat the windows as "document-windows" and not quit the app upon closing. This is due to usability and user-information.
If you just want to hide the app, then there's a command for that, you know. Use it like everyone else. I've grown accustomed to using the dock to quit apps which is stupid. App-windows should quit the app upon closing, cause in essential that's what you're doing.
Imagine your mom closing down outlook express, then doing something else, double-clicking OE again to check her mail, then calling me asking why she can't check her mail and then I have to explain to her how she never really closed down the app, and how to open a new "browser-window".
Although this is a bit improved in OS X, you can see which apps are still running in the Dock, and clicking f.e Mail in the Dock will reopen the app-win. But it's still a lot faster to just hide apps. As soon as you get used to alt-clicking it becomes second nature..
Mac window-close behavior used to routinely aggrevate windows users. They'd double click on an application repeatedly, trying to get a document window to open up. They didn't seem to grasp the concept that it was already running and that they had to learn a second interaction technique for summoning a window.
With the dock, and the functionality built into the window server and NSDocument, this subtle but troublesome flaw has been resolved. CLicking on an app in the dock will spawn a new document or window if none are currently open. Simply beautiful... *sniff*
I find it interesting that in the case of tabs, Eugene says that clicking on a small object near the top of the screen is horrible and instead you should use a key combo. But in this case, he says that clicking on a small object near the top of the screen is what you should do and the key combo (cmd-H) isn't good enough.
I still think single-window apps should stay open if you hit the close box. Look at iTunes, it stays open. Although it's less of an issue for, say, iPhoto (where you'll only have the one window open anyway) than on Windows Media Player (where it's likely that you'd want more than one window open).
Very small applications, like control panels in OS 9, and the calculator, should quit when closed. Because they're used for one quick adjustment or calculation and then they're over with. I'd hate to have to quit calculator when I'm done using it. Whereas, my browser stays open if I close the window because it's meant to be used for more than about a minute.
<strong>I find it interesting that in the case of tabs, Eugene says that clicking on a small object near the top of the screen is horrible and instead you should use a key combo. But in this case, he says that clicking on a small object near the top of the screen is what you should do and the key combo (cmd-H) isn't good enough.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What exactly does closing a window have to do with hiding an application?
Bottom line. The red widget should do one thing, and one thing only, close windows.
If you hide an app, the windows reappear when you switch back to the app. App switching is actually a whole other can of worms. I'm still not keen on the whole idea of having a new window appear when you switch to an app with no open windows. It happens in QuickTime, Mail, Safari, IE, etc. If I want a new window, I'll ask for it.
It happens in QuickTime, Mail, Safari, IE, etc. If I want a new window, I'll ask for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just outta curiosity, what would you be doing in Safari that doesn't require an open window?
You like the idea of having a hidden interface. Just face it, a majority of users don't. Including the millions of mom's in the world that can't grasp that an application is open if you can't see it. I agree with you on Quicktime though. I don't even have QT pro, so I can't even do anything with my "untitled movie"
I on the other hand HATE the fact that Mail, iTunes, iCal, Address book and MSN Messenger (growl) DON'T quit when I close them down. I have to first close them, see that they didn't quit and then go to the dock to quit them (which is the fastest way). After all, I'm closing the window cause I'm done using the app. If I'm done using the app, it should get out of my way.
<strong>After all, I'm closing the window cause I'm done using the app. If I'm done using the app, it should get out of my way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I close the window cause I'm done with the window. I quit the app when I'm done with the app. *shrugs* Maybe it's just me. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Just outta curiosity, what would you be doing in Safari that doesn't require an open window?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look at the menu bar. You can empty the cache, change prefs, clear your history, review downloads, etc.
[quote]You like the idea of having a hidden interface. Just face it, a majority of users don't. Including the millions of mom's in the world that can't grasp that an application is open if you can't see it. I agree with you on Quicktime though. I don't even have QT pro, so I can't even do anything with my "untitled movie" <hr></blockquote>
Why do you agree with me on QuickTime Player and not other apps? Don't you care about consistent interface?
[quote]I on the other hand HATE the fact that Mail, iTunes, iCal, Address book and MSN Messenger (growl) DON'T quit when I close them down. I have to first close them, see that they didn't quit and then go to the dock to quit them (which is the fastest way). After all, I'm closing the window cause I'm done using the app. If I'm done using the app, it should get out of my way.<hr></blockquote>
What does the red widget mean to you? Define its function.
I close the window cause I'm done with the window. I quit the app when I'm done with the app. *shrugs* Maybe it's just me. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't expect Photoshop to quit when I close all windows, I don't expect my browser to quit when I close all it's windows... But I do expect apps like iTunes, Address book to quit when I close it's window. Why? I'm DONE with it when I close it. There's two kind of apps, the kind you want to leave open and the kind that you only want it open when you are using it. I know, it's strange, but it's true.
Here's another strange phenomena. When I click on an open app's icon such as Photoshop, I don't expect it to open an "untitled window." Some apps do that and it drives me nuts. On the other hand, when I click on an app such as IE, I do expect a window be made if there isn't one already open. iTunes is a good example, when this app is running and I click on it's icon I expect to see it's window open up if it was closed, It's doesn't! That's why I would rather it quit when I close it's windows instead.
It's all very strange isn't? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
I don't expect Photoshop to quit when I close all windows, I don't expect my browser to quit when I close all it's windows... But I do expect apps like iTunes, Address book to quit when I close it's window. Why? I'm DONE with it when I close it. There's two kind of apps, the kind you want to leave open and the kind that you only want it open when you are using it. I know, it's strange, but it's true.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You do realize iTunes continues to play without the controller window visible, do you? iTunes is not a single window app either. Try double-clicking on a playlist.
You do realize there are other controls for apps like Address Book outside the main window, do you?
Your second to last sentence above doesn't make sense. You're interchanging "app" and "window" as if they're synonymous. Think of the menubar as a transparent fullscreen window. It's what MDI tried to mimic. Closing the iTunes controller window is one thing. Liken quitting the app to closing the menubar. Think of the "Quit" Cmd-Q item as the equivalent of the menubar's red widget.
[quote]Here's another strange phenomena. When I click on an open app's icon such as Photoshop, I don't expect it to open an "untitled window." Some apps do that and it drives me nuts. On the other hand, when I click on an app such as IE, I do expect a window be made if there isn't one already open. iTunes is a good example, when this app is running and I click on it's icon I expect to see it's window open up if it was closed, It's doesn't! That's why I would rather it quit when I close it's windows instead.<hr></blockquote>
Again, why should switching to an app open a new window. Apps such as Mail open new Viewer windows. What if I want a Compose window instead? Switching back and forth between apps is a frequent affair. I will accept the tradition of a new window greeting you when an app is launched initially, but after that it becomes a nuisance. All in all, this is a minor gripe compared to the two others being discussed. This is one place where an option should exist. There should be a checkbox in the TextEdit Preferences that lets me stop "Untitled" windows from popping up. And unlike tabbed web browsing, no new widgets/interfaces are being defined by doing so.
<strong>You do realize iTunes continues to play without the controller window visible, do you? iTunes is not a single window app either. Try double-clicking on a playlist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes I do know all the above. Believe me I do, specially the part about iTunes continuing to play even after closing the window, it annoys the heck out of me. Don't you think it's unnatural for an app to continue doing it's thing even after you have closed it's window? Talk about inconsistency! What happens when you close a movie clip from QuickTime? Does it continue playing to the end?
You seem to me stuck in some sort UI guidelines box. Nothing is and nothing will ever be standard across the boards, ever!! We have tools that do different tasks and require UIs that works best for what they do. Face it, some apps should quit when you close the windows because it's natural to do so, while others don't because it's natural that they don't. It has nothing to do whether it's a single window app or not, it has to do with what you use that app for. Some apps should open an untitled window when you click on it's icon and some shouldn't.
[quote]
<strong>Again, why should switching to an app open a new window. Apps such as Mail open new Viewer windows. What if I want a Compose window instead? Switching back and forth between apps is a frequent affair. I will accept the tradition of a new window greeting you when an app is launched initially, but after that it becomes a nuisance. All in all, this is a minor gripe compared to the two others being discussed. This is one place where an option should exist. There should be a checkbox in the TextEdit Preferences that lets me stop "Untitled" windows from popping up. And unlike tabbed web browsing, no new widgets/interfaces are being defined by doing so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, it depends on the app. I find this statement strange, "I will accept the tradition of a new window greeting you when an app is launched initially, but after that it becomes a nuisance." Really? When you launch QuickTime why do you want an untitled window in your face? That's still an annoyance because what am I supposed to do with that window? I know the argument with this, newbies have problem with an app launching and doing nothing. This is the fault of the app's designer. When I launch Photoshop it does not give me an untitled window, and rightly so I might add, but I can tell the app is up and running. It's also an annoyance not having a window to work from when you switch to an app that should give you a window to work from if none was already open by said app. Example: A browser.
No, it's not unnatural. The window in iTunes is not the feedback from the file. The speaker is.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but... but...but... where's the music coming form? I know it's the speaker... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> but where's the visual identification that the user identifies this action with? It's not there is it? You closed it, but it's still going! If you closed it, it should have stopped. Common. If I minimize it yes, but when I close it's window?!! You don't find that strange yet you argue about such things as consistency in UI?
Yes, but... but...but... where's the music coming form? I know it's the speaker... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> but where's the visual identification that the user identifies this action with? It's not there is it? You closed it, but it's still going! If you closed it, it should have stopped. Common. If I minimize it yes, but when I close it's window?!! You don't find that strange yet you argue about such things as consistency in UI?
So if I turn on my stereo, and close my eyes, will the music stop? iTunes is not the controller window. iTunes is an application. The window is just one part of a much larger app.
There are a dozen things you can do in iTunes with the menubar.
There are other ways to control iTunes, like the dock, or helper applications. Why should the controller window be the be-all-end-all of iTunes when it clearly isn't? Remember this little app?
The controller window is not the app. It's not the only visual cue either. Look at your desktop while iTunes is launched. There should be two visual cues other than the controller window...the Dock icon and the menu.
Some of you really don't know any better. It's so obvious it hurts.
Comments
But with OS X I don't think there's any reason to quit an app, because virtual memory is handled better than it used to be.
I'm not sure I buy the argument that it's a Windows carry-over though. I think it's more likely that it's a holdover from the desk-accessory days, when apps without documents, even if they had their own menubar, would quit on close.
<strong>I understand Apple's logic that single-window apps -- the ones that basically need an open window to do anything (iTunes, iPhoto, etc.) could or maybe should quit when you close its window. However, the window should therefore have a "quit" widget that, while related, isn't confused with a close widget. If Apple doesn't want to do that, then they probably should not have apps quit when you close their last window.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
apple might make the case that an app like itunes CAN still have functionality, even when the last window is closed, by way of its dock icon (pause, play, next track, etc.)
<strong>It's recommended by Apple that single window applications quit when the window is closed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You can have it two ways:
- Either all apps quit on closing the last window or none do.
- The dumbest of users should be able to see whether an app quits on closing the last window.
I suggest the following. Since Apple claims metallic windows are to resemble hardware, they should not be treated just as normal windows with different looks. So we cannot have a multidocument app with metallic windows. So if an app has metallic windows, it claims that it can have only one and it will quit after the window is closed.If you just want to hide the app, then there's a command for that, you know. Use it like everyone else. I've grown accustomed to using the dock to quit apps which is stupid. App-windows should quit the app upon closing, cause in essential that's what you're doing.
Imagine your mom closing down outlook express, then doing something else, double-clicking OE again to check her mail, then calling me asking why she can't check her mail and then I have to explain to her how she never really closed down the app, and how to open a new "browser-window".
Although this is a bit improved in OS X, you can see which apps are still running in the Dock, and clicking f.e Mail in the Dock will reopen the app-win. But it's still a lot faster to just hide apps. As soon as you get used to alt-clicking it becomes second nature..
The "Hide" command. Learn it, use it!
With the dock, and the functionality built into the window server and NSDocument, this subtle but troublesome flaw has been resolved. CLicking on an app in the dock will spawn a new document or window if none are currently open. Simply beautiful... *sniff*
If a running application has no open windows, open a window when somebody clicks on it's dock icon.
Most already do this anyway, but there are a few that do not.
I still think single-window apps should stay open if you hit the close box. Look at iTunes, it stays open. Although it's less of an issue for, say, iPhoto (where you'll only have the one window open anyway) than on Windows Media Player (where it's likely that you'd want more than one window open).
Very small applications, like control panels in OS 9, and the calculator, should quit when closed. Because they're used for one quick adjustment or calculation and then they're over with. I'd hate to have to quit calculator when I'm done using it. Whereas, my browser stays open if I close the window because it's meant to be used for more than about a minute.
<strong>I find it interesting that in the case of tabs, Eugene says that clicking on a small object near the top of the screen is horrible and instead you should use a key combo. But in this case, he says that clicking on a small object near the top of the screen is what you should do and the key combo (cmd-H) isn't good enough.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What exactly does closing a window have to do with hiding an application?
Bottom line. The red widget should do one thing, and one thing only, close windows.
If you hide an app, the windows reappear when you switch back to the app. App switching is actually a whole other can of worms. I'm still not keen on the whole idea of having a new window appear when you switch to an app with no open windows. It happens in QuickTime, Mail, Safari, IE, etc. If I want a new window, I'll ask for it.
<strong>
It happens in QuickTime, Mail, Safari, IE, etc. If I want a new window, I'll ask for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just outta curiosity, what would you be doing in Safari that doesn't require an open window?
You like the idea of having a hidden interface. Just face it, a majority of users don't. Including the millions of mom's in the world that can't grasp that an application is open if you can't see it. I agree with you on Quicktime though. I don't even have QT pro, so I can't even do anything with my "untitled movie"
I on the other hand HATE the fact that Mail, iTunes, iCal, Address book and MSN Messenger (growl) DON'T quit when I close them down. I have to first close them, see that they didn't quit and then go to the dock to quit them (which is the fastest way). After all, I'm closing the window cause I'm done using the app. If I'm done using the app, it should get out of my way.
<strong>After all, I'm closing the window cause I'm done using the app. If I'm done using the app, it should get out of my way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I close the window cause I'm done with the window. I quit the app when I'm done with the app. *shrugs* Maybe it's just me. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
<strong>
Just outta curiosity, what would you be doing in Safari that doesn't require an open window?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Look at the menu bar. You can empty the cache, change prefs, clear your history, review downloads, etc.
[quote]You like the idea of having a hidden interface. Just face it, a majority of users don't. Including the millions of mom's in the world that can't grasp that an application is open if you can't see it. I agree with you on Quicktime though. I don't even have QT pro, so I can't even do anything with my "untitled movie"
Why do you agree with me on QuickTime Player and not other apps? Don't you care about consistent interface?
[quote]I on the other hand HATE the fact that Mail, iTunes, iCal, Address book and MSN Messenger (growl) DON'T quit when I close them down. I have to first close them, see that they didn't quit and then go to the dock to quit them (which is the fastest way). After all, I'm closing the window cause I'm done using the app. If I'm done using the app, it should get out of my way.<hr></blockquote>
What does the red widget mean to you? Define its function.
<strong>
I close the window cause I'm done with the window. I quit the app when I'm done with the app. *shrugs* Maybe it's just me. <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't expect Photoshop to quit when I close all windows, I don't expect my browser to quit when I close all it's windows... But I do expect apps like iTunes, Address book to quit when I close it's window. Why? I'm DONE with it when I close it. There's two kind of apps, the kind you want to leave open and the kind that you only want it open when you are using it. I know, it's strange, but it's true.
Here's another strange phenomena. When I click on an open app's icon such as Photoshop, I don't expect it to open an "untitled window." Some apps do that and it drives me nuts. On the other hand, when I click on an app such as IE, I do expect a window be made if there isn't one already open. iTunes is a good example, when this app is running and I click on it's icon I expect to see it's window open up if it was closed, It's doesn't! That's why I would rather it quit when I close it's windows instead.
It's all very strange isn't? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" />
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
<strong>
I don't expect Photoshop to quit when I close all windows, I don't expect my browser to quit when I close all it's windows... But I do expect apps like iTunes, Address book to quit when I close it's window. Why? I'm DONE with it when I close it. There's two kind of apps, the kind you want to leave open and the kind that you only want it open when you are using it. I know, it's strange, but it's true.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You do realize iTunes continues to play without the controller window visible, do you? iTunes is not a single window app either. Try double-clicking on a playlist.
You do realize there are other controls for apps like Address Book outside the main window, do you?
Your second to last sentence above doesn't make sense. You're interchanging "app" and "window" as if they're synonymous. Think of the menubar as a transparent fullscreen window. It's what MDI tried to mimic. Closing the iTunes controller window is one thing. Liken quitting the app to closing the menubar. Think of the "Quit" Cmd-Q item as the equivalent of the menubar's red widget.
[quote]Here's another strange phenomena. When I click on an open app's icon such as Photoshop, I don't expect it to open an "untitled window." Some apps do that and it drives me nuts. On the other hand, when I click on an app such as IE, I do expect a window be made if there isn't one already open. iTunes is a good example, when this app is running and I click on it's icon I expect to see it's window open up if it was closed, It's doesn't! That's why I would rather it quit when I close it's windows instead.<hr></blockquote>
Again, why should switching to an app open a new window. Apps such as Mail open new Viewer windows. What if I want a Compose window instead? Switching back and forth between apps is a frequent affair. I will accept the tradition of a new window greeting you when an app is launched initially, but after that it becomes a nuisance. All in all, this is a minor gripe compared to the two others being discussed. This is one place where an option should exist. There should be a checkbox in the TextEdit Preferences that lets me stop "Untitled" windows from popping up. And unlike tabbed web browsing, no new widgets/interfaces are being defined by doing so.
[ 02-25-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
<strong>You do realize iTunes continues to play without the controller window visible, do you? iTunes is not a single window app either. Try double-clicking on a playlist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes I do know all the above. Believe me I do, specially the part about iTunes continuing to play even after closing the window, it annoys the heck out of me. Don't you think it's unnatural for an app to continue doing it's thing even after you have closed it's window? Talk about inconsistency! What happens when you close a movie clip from QuickTime? Does it continue playing to the end?
You seem to me stuck in some sort UI guidelines box. Nothing is and nothing will ever be standard across the boards, ever!! We have tools that do different tasks and require UIs that works best for what they do. Face it, some apps should quit when you close the windows because it's natural to do so, while others don't because it's natural that they don't. It has nothing to do whether it's a single window app or not, it has to do with what you use that app for. Some apps should open an untitled window when you click on it's icon and some shouldn't.
[quote]
<strong>Again, why should switching to an app open a new window. Apps such as Mail open new Viewer windows. What if I want a Compose window instead? Switching back and forth between apps is a frequent affair. I will accept the tradition of a new window greeting you when an app is launched initially, but after that it becomes a nuisance. All in all, this is a minor gripe compared to the two others being discussed. This is one place where an option should exist. There should be a checkbox in the TextEdit Preferences that lets me stop "Untitled" windows from popping up. And unlike tabbed web browsing, no new widgets/interfaces are being defined by doing so.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Again, it depends on the app. I find this statement strange, "I will accept the tradition of a new window greeting you when an app is launched initially, but after that it becomes a nuisance." Really? When you launch QuickTime why do you want an untitled window in your face? That's still an annoyance because what am I supposed to do with that window? I know the argument with this, newbies have problem with an app launching and doing nothing. This is the fault of the app's designer. When I launch Photoshop it does not give me an untitled window, and rightly so I might add, but I can tell the app is up and running. It's also an annoyance not having a window to work from when you switch to an app that should give you a window to work from if none was already open by said app. Example: A browser.
[ 02-26-2003: Message edited by: PooPooDoctor ]</p>
<strong>
No, it's not unnatural. The window in iTunes is not the feedback from the file. The speaker is.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but... but...but... where's the music coming form? I know it's the speaker... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> but where's the visual identification that the user identifies this action with? It's not there is it? You closed it, but it's still going! If you closed it, it should have stopped. Common. If I minimize it yes, but when I close it's window?!! You don't find that strange yet you argue about such things as consistency in UI?
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" />
<strong>
Yes, but... but...but... where's the music coming form? I know it's the speaker... <img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" /> but where's the visual identification that the user identifies this action with? It's not there is it? You closed it, but it's still going! If you closed it, it should have stopped. Common. If I minimize it yes, but when I close it's window?!! You don't find that strange yet you argue about such things as consistency in UI?
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
So if I turn on my stereo, and close my eyes, will the music stop? iTunes is not the controller window. iTunes is an application. The window is just one part of a much larger app.
There are a dozen things you can do in iTunes with the menubar.
There are other ways to control iTunes, like the dock, or helper applications. Why should the controller window be the be-all-end-all of iTunes when it clearly isn't? Remember this little app?
<a href="http://www.geocities.com/suitts/sw/playalong.html"; target="_blank">http://www.geocities.com/suitts/sw/playalong.html</a>;
The controller window is not the app. It's not the only visual cue either. Look at your desktop while iTunes is launched. There should be two visual cues other than the controller window...the Dock icon and the menu.
Some of you really don't know any better. It's so obvious it hurts.
It's a pretty basic Aqua GUI stuff here. I also don't like how optimize doesn't work as standard in iTunes, SerialBox etc.
Barto