I've spent a lot of time today reading shameful, hateful Apple forums, both here and at macrumors.com, rife with people using God and Jesus to justify their bigotry. It's absolutely sickening, but ultimately why man created the one true god in the first place: to establish and push agendas on one another in order to galvanize large masses of otherwise disparate individuals. I believe it was a necessary evil of the times as human beings were moving into larger, more complex social structures. And, even if we haven't grown out of this outmoded paradigm, this crutch, as a species, surely any of these zealots can see that a literal interpretation of the bible would have us reverting to laws about slavery and women's rights that are not in any way justifiable, correct, or moral. This puts any argument around the validity of using a moral compass from 2000+ years ago into doubt. The Bible is a product of the times, and those times, literally represented, were abhorrent in so many ways. We've grown from then, in general, and I am ever hopeful that we will continue to grow more wise with every passing day in pursuit of peace, love and equality.
Whether you agree or disagree with Apple's stance, suggesting that Apple should ignore an issue of rights that affects their Californian employees, HR, and their ongoing recruitment efforts, is foolish. This is an important business issue. Whether the cons of taking a stance on such a polarizing issue outweigh the benefits is certainly worth arguing.
If not in my time, then future generations will be able to look back on this as a brave and forward thinking decision on Apple's part. I commend them for taking a stand that may cost them some customers in the short term and am ever hopeful that it will actually gain them more.
w00t, go apple. You have no idea how annoyed I am at the people standing on every corner with signs. Let the people get married, its REALLY not such of a big deal, it is a right they have as humans. Love is love.
Honestly if there was no religions the world would be a much better case. Tell me about any major world issue in the last 2000 years where religion has not played a significant role in its happening!!
I am agnostic and understand your sentiments, but I also feel religion has had an overwhelming influence in shaping the constructs of civilization for the better. That is not to say it's infallible or has done no wrong in warping or misinterpreting the "word of God" to fit a specific, selfish agenda at times, but I do see a need for religion for in society, even today despite our current understand of things that religions have previously denounced and killed to protect the knowledge of. There is even evidence that we are wired, to some extent, to search for that infallible father figure that we believed in as a child.
Many churches do kick people out for a lifestyle of sin. For thousands of years homosexuality has been defined as a sin. So when somebody gets kicked out of a church for homosexuality, can they sue the church for discrimination? This is going to cause LOTS of problems.
Also, so many people accept sexual orientation as a thing that is genetic. As far as I know, this has not been proven at all. If somebody has good proof of this then let us know. Otherwise quit using this unproven premise.
Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.
The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.
Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
It marginalizes the importance of marriage.
I live in the Netherlands. In this country we have:
Legalized abortion.
Legalized same sex marriage with full adoption rights.
Legalized euthanasia.
Legalized marijuana use.
Universal health insurance.
A livable minimum wage
And all those rights are subject to regulation laid down by our elected representatives.
And guess what, we also have a healthy economy, low unemployment and our society has not disintegrated. Marriage has been strengthened and not marginalized.
And all that in one of the happiest countries in the world.
I am agnostic and understand your sentiments, but I also feel religion has had an overwhelming influence in shaping the constructs of civilization for the better. That is not to say it's infallible or has done no wrong in warping or misinterpreting the "word of God" to fit a specific, selfish agenda at times, but I do see a need for religion for in society, even today despite our current understand of things that religions have previously denounced and killed to protect the knowledge of. There is even evidence that we are wired, to some extent, to search for that infallible father figure that we believed in as a child.
As a fellow Agnostic I agree with your reasoning and observations.
If you feel that it's moral to discriminate against someone because of something they are born with, like their skin colour, then so be it. I'd pray for you, but I have no idea what God that would be or if their even is one. Instead I'll just hope you learn some tolerance in this lifetime.
As defined by the system of rules it is specifically covering: Hence each industry, has a code of ethics unique to their trades, industries, paths, etc.
Morality is a mutable system. Unfortunately, we have a vocal group who feels morality is an immutable tablet from a mythical man story.
I am astounded to hear people think that religion is the the main cause of the world's ills. Easy to think that when one doesn't know the details of religion. I guess they also think all black people look the same and are the same.
Just cause some lunatic claims to be Christian doesn't mean he actually is one. Jesus said love your enemy. So anybody who does evil in the name of Christianity is proving they are not a Christian. So quit using this flawed reason.
Communist Lenin and Stalin killed plenty of people. They were not religious. So it is totally unfair to link religion as the cause of most of the world's evils.
However, I do think religion is linked to most of the world's evils. Since the beginning of recorded history, one man has tried to lord it over another. Most religions says this is wrong. Obviously the guy trying to lord it over the others cannot stand people who say we should treat others as equals. Thus the truly religious have always been persecuted for their beliefs. They are not the ones doing the evil, they are the ones receiving the evil.
Because of this, people who try to lord it over others have sought to counter true religion by claiming to have God on their side. It is indeed rare to find any war without some claim of divine support. It is then easy for the uninformed to see this as religion being the cause of the problems. But religion really had nothing to do with the cause of the problems; it was an excuse.
I also once heard of a man who fell out of a window twenty stories high. As he passed the tenth floor he was heard saying, "well so far so good."
I hope your country does do well. However, the things you mention have only been legal for a short while. Give it a few generations and then see how things go. I think there will be ramifications in the future.
My country (US) has made a number of mistakes and the ramifications are starting to catch up with us. Our finances is one obvious area. But sometimes solutions that solve the immediate crisis only postpone it till another day. And when that day comes, it tends to come back as a bigger problem.
I happen to know people who live in the Netherlands. Things are not so rosy as you make it out to be. Many families have fallen apart. It is sad to hear about things like this. Unfortunately families falling apart have become common in our country too.
I am astounded to hear people think that religion is the the main cause of the world's ills. Easy to think that when one doesn't know the details of religion. I guess they also think all black people look the same and are the same.
Just cause some lunatic claims to be Christian doesn't mean he actually is one. Jesus said love your enemy. So anybody who does evil in the name of Christianity is proving they are not a Christian. So quit using this flawed reason.
Communist Lenin and Stalin killed plenty of people. They were not religious. So it is totally unfair to link religion as the cause of most of the world's evils.
However, I do think religion is linked to most of the world's evils. Since the beginning of recorded history, one man has tried to lord it over another. Most religions says this is wrong. Obviously the guy trying to lord it over the others cannot stand people who say we should treat others as equals. Thus the truly religious have always been persecuted for their beliefs. They are not the ones doing the evil, they are the ones receiving the evil.
Because of this, people who try to lord it over others have sought to counter true religion by claiming to have God on their side. It is indeed rare to find any war without some claim of divine support. It is then easy for the uninformed to see this as religion being the cause of the problems. But religion really had nothing to do with the cause of the problems; it was an excuse.
Then how am I suppose to distinguish "good religious people" from bogus ones? For what I see in your post, you should be fighting a war against "bad religious people" first...
I also once heard of a man who fell out of a window twenty stories high. As he passed the tenth floor he was heard saying, "well so far so good."
I hope your country does do well. However, the things you mention have only been legal for a short while. Give it a few generations and then see how things go. I think there will be ramifications in the future.
My country (US) has made a number of mistakes and the ramifications are starting to catch up with us. Our finances is one obvious area. But sometimes solutions that solve the immediate crisis only postpone it till another day. And when that day comes, it tends to come back as a bigger problem.
I happen to know people who live in the Netherlands. Things are not so rosy as you make it out to be. Many families have fallen apart. It is sad to hear about things like this. Unfortunately families falling apart have become common in our country too.
Again I wish you and your country well.
Unfortunately it is impossible to insulate oneself from the mistakes made in the USA. You are right that things are not rosy, but I never said they were.
Black,Yellow,White outside looks it's different but inside we are the same HUMAN so please don't separate the humanity by the race. We are in the same world and only one world the right things that we should do is "Be A Nice And Help Each Other"
And I thought PC users were the only bigots, seems there are plenty of Apple users too out there who are as backward as Windows XP. I'm amazed at the prejudice and crap esposused here by so called Apple users who should know better. Apple has a huge following in the gay community - live with it or go back to the crappy world of Windows where you belong.
Do we need to start screening companies for the moral or political positions whatever they are?
Can I be a republican and buy from Apple? Can I be a democrat and buy from Apple?
Can I be pro choice and buy from Apple? Can I be pro life and buy from Apple?
Can I oppose Gay marriage and buy Apple? Can I support Gay marriage and buy from Apple?
Please, Mr Jobs, keep Apple out of politics and moral debates and do what they do best: Stunning
pieces of equipments and a lot of money.
Why do you feel compelled to stand behind every idea your gadgets maker choose to voice?
I think you can buy a product because of variety things or any combination, be it price, quality, usability, availability or the brand value etc. Whether you agree with the company's view on a specific subject can be a part of it, but that also can be excluded from your decision process.
Oh great! Why do companies think they should flush stockholders' money down the toilet on stuff like this? It's such an emotionally and culturally charged and divisive issue.
Next thing you know, they'll do something really asinine, like put Al Gore, The High Priest of the Church of Global Warming? on the board.
It's marriage between two people of the same sex. Why would people want to do it? Why do heterosexual people get married?
For those who a "pro" prop 8, please explain exactly how two people of the same sex who love each other getting married adversely affects you or anyone else in any way. Seriously, there are much better things to get pissed off about e.g. torture, child abuse, etc. etc. try directing your energies towards ridding the world of things like that before you start trying to interfere with other people's loving relationships.
Comments
Whether you agree or disagree with Apple's stance, suggesting that Apple should ignore an issue of rights that affects their Californian employees, HR, and their ongoing recruitment efforts, is foolish. This is an important business issue. Whether the cons of taking a stance on such a polarizing issue outweigh the benefits is certainly worth arguing.
If not in my time, then future generations will be able to look back on this as a brave and forward thinking decision on Apple's part. I commend them for taking a stand that may cost them some customers in the short term and am ever hopeful that it will actually gain them more.
Peace.
Lee
Honestly if there was no religions the world would be a much better case. Tell me about any major world issue in the last 2000 years where religion has not played a significant role in its happening!!
I am agnostic and understand your sentiments, but I also feel religion has had an overwhelming influence in shaping the constructs of civilization for the better. That is not to say it's infallible or has done no wrong in warping or misinterpreting the "word of God" to fit a specific, selfish agenda at times, but I do see a need for religion for in society, even today despite our current understand of things that religions have previously denounced and killed to protect the knowledge of. There is even evidence that we are wired, to some extent, to search for that infallible father figure that we believed in as a child.
Also, so many people accept sexual orientation as a thing that is genetic. As far as I know, this has not been proven at all. If somebody has good proof of this then let us know. Otherwise quit using this unproven premise.
Denmark doesn't have full-blown "gay marriage"- they have same-sex unions, which go a couple of steps closer to the California model. So, I guess you're still in the middle ages, huh? Tragic.
The reason why is because wherever gay marriage is fully legalized, or close to it, it marginalizes marriage, which, is the underpinning of Western Civilization. Marriage rates drop like a rock, and you wind up with a huge amount of out-of-wedlock birthrates. Most of these result in a single parent raising the child, which is hard on the kids, and gov't coffers to support the single parents. Of course, in Denmark, tax rates are so high it almost pays better to stay home than have a job- so that particular argument doesn't necessarily matter to you.
Since, according to you, it's all about love, why not brother/sister, father/daughter or hell, bestiality... let's throw in a few chickens. No restrictions, right? Why not five people getting married? I'm sure you get the point.
It marginalizes the importance of marriage.
I live in the Netherlands. In this country we have:
Legalized abortion.
Legalized same sex marriage with full adoption rights.
Legalized euthanasia.
Legalized marijuana use.
Universal health insurance.
A livable minimum wage
And all those rights are subject to regulation laid down by our elected representatives.
And guess what, we also have a healthy economy, low unemployment and our society has not disintegrated. Marriage has been strengthened and not marginalized.
And all that in one of the happiest countries in the world.
I am agnostic and understand your sentiments, but I also feel religion has had an overwhelming influence in shaping the constructs of civilization for the better. That is not to say it's infallible or has done no wrong in warping or misinterpreting the "word of God" to fit a specific, selfish agenda at times, but I do see a need for religion for in society, even today despite our current understand of things that religions have previously denounced and killed to protect the knowledge of. There is even evidence that we are wired, to some extent, to search for that infallible father figure that we believed in as a child.
As a fellow Agnostic I agree with your reasoning and observations.
Unethical = not morally correct.
If you feel that it's moral to discriminate against someone because of something they are born with, like their skin colour, then so be it. I'd pray for you, but I have no idea what God that would be or if their even is one. Instead I'll just hope you learn some tolerance in this lifetime.
As defined by the system of rules it is specifically covering: Hence each industry, has a code of ethics unique to their trades, industries, paths, etc.
Morality is a mutable system. Unfortunately, we have a vocal group who feels morality is an immutable tablet from a mythical man story.
Just cause some lunatic claims to be Christian doesn't mean he actually is one. Jesus said love your enemy. So anybody who does evil in the name of Christianity is proving they are not a Christian. So quit using this flawed reason.
Communist Lenin and Stalin killed plenty of people. They were not religious. So it is totally unfair to link religion as the cause of most of the world's evils.
However, I do think religion is linked to most of the world's evils. Since the beginning of recorded history, one man has tried to lord it over another. Most religions says this is wrong. Obviously the guy trying to lord it over the others cannot stand people who say we should treat others as equals. Thus the truly religious have always been persecuted for their beliefs. They are not the ones doing the evil, they are the ones receiving the evil.
Because of this, people who try to lord it over others have sought to counter true religion by claiming to have God on their side. It is indeed rare to find any war without some claim of divine support. It is then easy for the uninformed to see this as religion being the cause of the problems. But religion really had nothing to do with the cause of the problems; it was an excuse.
I also once heard of a man who fell out of a window twenty stories high. As he passed the tenth floor he was heard saying, "well so far so good."
I hope your country does do well. However, the things you mention have only been legal for a short while. Give it a few generations and then see how things go. I think there will be ramifications in the future.
My country (US) has made a number of mistakes and the ramifications are starting to catch up with us. Our finances is one obvious area. But sometimes solutions that solve the immediate crisis only postpone it till another day. And when that day comes, it tends to come back as a bigger problem.
I happen to know people who live in the Netherlands. Things are not so rosy as you make it out to be. Many families have fallen apart. It is sad to hear about things like this. Unfortunately families falling apart have become common in our country too.
Again I wish you and your country well.
I am astounded to hear people think that religion is the the main cause of the world's ills. Easy to think that when one doesn't know the details of religion. I guess they also think all black people look the same and are the same.
Just cause some lunatic claims to be Christian doesn't mean he actually is one. Jesus said love your enemy. So anybody who does evil in the name of Christianity is proving they are not a Christian. So quit using this flawed reason.
Communist Lenin and Stalin killed plenty of people. They were not religious. So it is totally unfair to link religion as the cause of most of the world's evils.
However, I do think religion is linked to most of the world's evils. Since the beginning of recorded history, one man has tried to lord it over another. Most religions says this is wrong. Obviously the guy trying to lord it over the others cannot stand people who say we should treat others as equals. Thus the truly religious have always been persecuted for their beliefs. They are not the ones doing the evil, they are the ones receiving the evil.
Because of this, people who try to lord it over others have sought to counter true religion by claiming to have God on their side. It is indeed rare to find any war without some claim of divine support. It is then easy for the uninformed to see this as religion being the cause of the problems. But religion really had nothing to do with the cause of the problems; it was an excuse.
Then how am I suppose to distinguish "good religious people" from bogus ones? For what I see in your post, you should be fighting a war against "bad religious people" first...
Oh, wait, you did, way too many times.
1. Do we have eyes ?
2. Do we have brain ?
3. Do we have hands ?
4. Do we have heart ?
5. Do we haven't anything else different of you ?
Answer : Vote No On Proposition 8
charel,
I also once heard of a man who fell out of a window twenty stories high. As he passed the tenth floor he was heard saying, "well so far so good."
I hope your country does do well. However, the things you mention have only been legal for a short while. Give it a few generations and then see how things go. I think there will be ramifications in the future.
My country (US) has made a number of mistakes and the ramifications are starting to catch up with us. Our finances is one obvious area. But sometimes solutions that solve the immediate crisis only postpone it till another day. And when that day comes, it tends to come back as a bigger problem.
I happen to know people who live in the Netherlands. Things are not so rosy as you make it out to be. Many families have fallen apart. It is sad to hear about things like this. Unfortunately families falling apart have become common in our country too.
Again I wish you and your country well.
Unfortunately it is impossible to insulate oneself from the mistakes made in the USA. You are right that things are not rosy, but I never said they were.
At least we try on the whole not to be bigots
Move Forward APPLE
Vote NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO NO
Are we entering and era of partisan consumerism?
Do we need to start screening companies for the moral or political positions whatever they are?
Can I be a republican and buy from Apple? Can I be a democrat and buy from Apple?
Can I be pro choice and buy from Apple? Can I be pro life and buy from Apple?
Can I oppose Gay marriage and buy Apple? Can I support Gay marriage and buy from Apple?
Please, Mr Jobs, keep Apple out of politics and moral debates and do what they do best: Stunning
pieces of equipments and a lot of money.
This is is bad bad bad.
Are we entering and era of partisan consumerism?
Do we need to start screening companies for the moral or political positions whatever they are?
Can I be a republican and buy from Apple? Can I be a democrat and buy from Apple?
Can I be pro choice and buy from Apple? Can I be pro life and buy from Apple?
Can I oppose Gay marriage and buy Apple? Can I support Gay marriage and buy from Apple?
Please, Mr Jobs, keep Apple out of politics and moral debates and do what they do best: Stunning
pieces of equipments and a lot of money.
Why do you feel compelled to stand behind every idea your gadgets maker choose to voice?
I think you can buy a product because of variety things or any combination, be it price, quality, usability, availability or the brand value etc. Whether you agree with the company's view on a specific subject can be a part of it, but that also can be excluded from your decision process.
Next thing you know, they'll do something really asinine, like put Al Gore, The High Priest of the Church of Global Warming? on the board.
Is that a deliberately stupid question?
It's marriage between two people of the same sex. Why would people want to do it? Why do heterosexual people get married?
For those who a "pro" prop 8, please explain exactly how two people of the same sex who love each other getting married adversely affects you or anyone else in any way. Seriously, there are much better things to get pissed off about e.g. torture, child abuse, etc. etc. try directing your energies towards ridding the world of things like that before you start trying to interfere with other people's loving relationships.
word!