Considering Apple said OS9 is dead, yeh they pretty much did
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>Great, now would someone please tell Digidesign? (out of kindness to the Windows crowd, you might also let them know that ME isn't the most recent version of Windows any more )
<strong>um, doesn't the white (dual USB) iBook, have AGP? I mean, I know the VRAM is only (maniacally laughing and crying) 8mb, but still, could iceBooks use Quartz Extreme? Everyone here who has an iBook knows OS X SUCKS on them. And, I can't imagine how much of a joke OS X (heh, especially 10.0) must be on an old iBook. Like, the first one.
So, will Quartz Extreme work on an iceBook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
And to answer your question, it clearly states on the Apple site that no, it will not work because it requires a Radeon or an nVidia card. But that doesn't matter because it won't accelerate much anyway. How often do you sit there with five transparent Terminals and genie them repeatedly while compiling a large project? Because that's basically what Quartz Extreme accelerates. It won't help one iota with window resizing or any of that. Improvements there will come from all of the other massively huge amount of work put into Jaguar. Do you realize how difficult it is to move an entire system to a new compiler? GCC3 even has a different C++ ABI (Application Binary Interface) for Christ's sake! I assume you do not realize this. Then you are not a developer, and none of today's announcements were targetted at you, anyway.
Ok, since a lot of people seems so confused the following computers can definitely support Quartz Extreme (though you might have to upgrade the graphics card):
Sawtooth and later Powermacs (ie, one's with AGP graphics)
All Cubes
G4 iMacs
April 2002 Powerbook G4 (DVI)
The following might support Quartz Extreme (though not optimally):
October 2001 Powerbook G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
If you don't have any of the above models, you don't have access to Quartz Extreme, BUT you still get all the improvements of the new compiler and FreeBSD 4.4. So, any computer, regardless of graphics support, will see some range of improvement from Jaguar.
Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You must be someone who is very easily satisfied.
I have an iBook 14inch 600Mhz with 384Ram and find OS X to be apalling. My friend's 2 year old G4 400mhz with 448MB ram totally kicks my 2 month old iBooks ass.
That is embarassing.
Anyway, Im downloading Jagwire (as The Register says Jobs pronounced it all day) as we speak and will be giving the bastard a run in due time... hopefully sooner rather than later. Lets see how pre-alpha deals with my iBook
Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
And to answer your question, it clearly states on the Apple site that no, it will not work because it requires a Radeon or an nVidia card. But that doesn't matter because it won't accelerate much anyway. How often do you sit there with five transparent Terminals and genie them repeatedly while compiling a large project? Because that's basically what Quartz Extreme accelerates. It won't help one iota with window resizing or any of that. Improvements there will come from all of the other massively huge amount of work put into Jaguar. Do you realize how difficult it is to move an entire system to a new compiler? GCC3 even has a different C++ ABI (Application Binary Interface) for Christ's sake! I assume you do not realize this. Then you are not a developer, and none of today's announcements were targetted at you, anyway.
<strong>For all those who told me I was being stupid for waiting for the "next big Powerbook revision," I have this to say:
I would be absolutely livid right now had I just cracked and bought a 667 a few weeks ago.
But I didn't. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm feeling even happier that I bought a new 800 MHz TiBook last week. My 667 was only four months old, but I'd been wanting a Cinema Display, and when I heard that the newer TiBooks had DVI, I broke down and dropped a whole lot of money on both a new TiBook and a new 22" display.
For anyone who isn't all that worried about Quartz Extreme, I know where you can get a great bargain on a nearly-new 667 MHz TiBook on eBay
I have an iBook 14inch 600Mhz with 384Ram and find OS X to be apalling. My friend's 2 year old G4 400mhz with 448MB ram totally kicks my 2 month old iBooks ass.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's totally strange, because I also have a 2 year old G4 400MHz, but it has 1.75GB of RAM (three 512MB sticks and one 256) and a GeForce2MX that I added in. The 12.1" 600MHz iBook kicks it's ass royally in Mac OS X. No comparison, the iBook is simply much faster. Maybe it's the 14" vs. the 12.1" factor? I remember this sort of thing cropping up when Mac OS X first came out... people with nigh-identical hardware having vastly different results with OS X speed. Very strange, indeed. I assure you, my 600MHz iBook is much, much faster at all non-AltiVec enhanced (which is just about everything, even on Mac OS X) tasks than my 400MHz G4 with 1.75GB of RAM under Mac OS X. Also, many other people who run Mac OS X on their iceBooks report that it runs very snappily compared to such old hardware as the 400MHz G4. So, I suggest that either you are running a non-standard system in some way (Classic doesn't even slow down my iBook, so I won't suggest that's the problem) or you have faulty hardware.
Despite the griping, I think the video card requirements are a good thing. I just bought a radeon for my cube, which sucks because i could certainly think of more necessary uses for the money, but I want to run jaguar when it is out at FULL SPEED. frankly the card it came with never blew my skirt up (rage 128 pro) anyway.
oh yeah, i DIDN'T buy the cube version from some shiester on ebay for tons of money, just a regular radeon that will fit in the cube if you remove the metal part on the end of the card. just a note to the cube owners out there who still have the 128 pro.
[quote] Which vid card do you have?? 32MB is for optimum performance. Cube has 2xAGP, so yes Quartz Extreme will run on the Cube. Got a GeForce2MX in there??
<hr></blockquote>
nope i'm stuck with the Rage 128 Pro, too bad i can't upgrade
My X on a G4 400 AGP is also extremely fast.. much much better than I keep hearing people make it out to be. I am saddened that I won't get Extreme Quartz, but X is still SOOOO much better than 9 that I proclaimed 9 dead months ago.
Damn people will complain about anything. What they don't realize is that Apple didn't just arbitrarily decide which video cards would be supported by Quartz Extreme, it's a technical limitation of the video cards themselves! For Quartz hardware acceleration to work, a good video card is needed.
Sure Apple might have been able to lessen the extent of Quartz hardware acceleration so that it would work on more video cards, but then it wouldn't be as good. Is that fair to those of us who shelled out extra cash for better video cards?
Do you people complain to Id when Quake runs better on more expensive video cards? Do you complain to Adobe when Photoshop runs faster on a G4 because of Altivec?
Yeah you guys need to quite your whinning. This is the tech world, and the fact is that it advances very fast. I would rather have Apple do Quartz Extreme like they are, then not do it all so as to not annoy people who arnt buying at the highend.
Also expect hacks that allow Quartz Extreme to run on 'unsupported' hardware.
PLUS, Jagwire (damn steve pronounciation -check cnet videos) will have a 20% speed boost from GCC3.1 alone On top of that further code optimizations, and finder multithreading.
Your comps are far from unsupported, they just cant run OS X at the fastest it's capable of, and if you bought a lower-end mac you should have expected that.
And yes all Powerbook G4 550/667's will take advantage of QEX. And all G4 towers (except for the very very first generation of G4 towers) and Cubes will, or with a vid card upgrade can take advantage of QEX. So quit your bitchen, and accept progress.
<strong>Geez you guys, do you want Apple to advance the OS or not? They can't make it run great on every piece of old hardware. It's not like it WON'T WORK on a PowerBook with 16 MB of video RAM - it just won't work as FAST.
If you have one, you'll still see improvement. If you happen to have a new one with 32 MB, you'll see maximum improvement.
It's the price of innovating and advancing, people. Get used to it. (spoken in the nicest tone possible) </strong><hr></blockquote>
OLD...???
I just bought my G4 tower LESS than a year ago... I just bought my NEW Radeon PCI card a few MONTHS ago... I was just ABOUT TO BUY a Matrox RT-Mac PCI card when the NEW drivers come out.
Old hardware...? My point is... if they're gonna do this AGP-Only thing for hrdwr accelleration... then give us MULTIPLE AGP Slots...!!!
I am (was?) on the verge of a 3-Display setup and now to find out only ONE display will reap the benefits of this Quartz-a-holic engine...?
Phuck... OF COURSE we want them to keep advancing the OS... of COURSE we want them to shoot for cutting edge... but c'mon. I'd rather see underlying CORE functionality accellerated through better optimization or compilation for MY CURRENT machine before speeding-up the eye-candy on NEWER TECHNOLOGIES!!!
I'm not a cry-baby, but I'm not a millionaire either. I cannot afford to keep shelling-out top dollar to try to reach an equilibrium with my hardware & software.
Before bumping to OSX... I got a kick-ass 64MB 3dfx VooDoo 5500 PCI card for my G4... I move to OSX... no support for it... after waiting and waiting I bite the bullet for the Radeon top-o-the-line PCI card... now I find that IT won't be good enough...?
sorry... but the wallet is thinning out too fast here. If this OS is going to be "so advanced" and so "kick-ass"... then HOLD OFF on releasing it until you make machines that BLOW AWAY THE COMPETITION... I'm talking 3X the speed of the intel, athlon world...
- breathe -
sorry... I truly am... I just get bitter at times...
Comments
<strong>
Considering Apple said OS9 is dead, yeh they pretty much did
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>Great, now would someone please tell Digidesign? (out of kindness to the Windows crowd, you might also let them know that ME isn't the most recent version of Windows any more
<strong>um, doesn't the white (dual USB) iBook, have AGP? I mean, I know the VRAM is only (maniacally laughing and crying) 8mb, but still, could iceBooks use Quartz Extreme? Everyone here who has an iBook knows OS X SUCKS on them. And, I can't imagine how much of a joke OS X (heh, especially 10.0) must be on an old iBook. Like, the first one.
So, will Quartz Extreme work on an iceBook?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
And to answer your question, it clearly states on the Apple site that no, it will not work because it requires a Radeon or an nVidia card. But that doesn't matter because it won't accelerate much anyway. How often do you sit there with five transparent Terminals and genie them repeatedly while compiling a large project? Because that's basically what Quartz Extreme accelerates. It won't help one iota with window resizing or any of that. Improvements there will come from all of the other massively huge amount of work put into Jaguar. Do you realize how difficult it is to move an entire system to a new compiler? GCC3 even has a different C++ ABI (Application Binary Interface) for Christ's sake! I assume you do not realize this. Then you are not a developer, and none of today's announcements were targetted at you, anyway.
Thanks,
Shadow Knight
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Shadow Knight ]</p>
I have a PM G4 400 AGP(Sawtooth). Does this have AGP 2x?
Also, is the ATI RADEON Mac Edition card OS X-compatible?
Thanks,
Steve <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Sawtooth and later Powermacs (ie, one's with AGP graphics)
All Cubes
G4 iMacs
April 2002 Powerbook G4 (DVI)
The following might support Quartz Extreme (though not optimally):
October 2001 Powerbook G4 (Gigabit Ethernet)
If you don't have any of the above models, you don't have access to Quartz Extreme, BUT you still get all the improvements of the new compiler and FreeBSD 4.4. So, any computer, regardless of graphics support, will see some range of improvement from Jaguar.
<strong>
Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
You must be someone who is very easily satisfied.
I have an iBook 14inch 600Mhz with 384Ram and find OS X to be apalling. My friend's 2 year old G4 400mhz with 448MB ram totally kicks my 2 month old iBooks ass.
That is embarassing.
Anyway, Im downloading Jagwire (as The Register says Jobs pronounced it all day) as we speak and will be giving the bastard a run in due time... hopefully sooner rather than later. Lets see how pre-alpha deals with my iBook
<strong>
Er, hate to burst your Apple-bashing bubble here, but I have a 600MHz iBook and OS X runs GREAT. Better than on my 400MHz G4 tower. Much better, in fact. Heck, for that matter I also have an older 466MHz clamshell iBook SE, and Mac OS X runs great on that too, imperceptibly slower than the G4. How much RAM do you have in your iBook? I have 384MB in the 600 and 160MB in the 466. So, please, for God's sake, do not think you speak for "everyone here who has an iBook." In fact, based on other things I've seen and read, I think you largely speak just for yourself.
And to answer your question, it clearly states on the Apple site that no, it will not work because it requires a Radeon or an nVidia card. But that doesn't matter because it won't accelerate much anyway. How often do you sit there with five transparent Terminals and genie them repeatedly while compiling a large project? Because that's basically what Quartz Extreme accelerates. It won't help one iota with window resizing or any of that. Improvements there will come from all of the other massively huge amount of work put into Jaguar. Do you realize how difficult it is to move an entire system to a new compiler? GCC3 even has a different C++ ABI (Application Binary Interface) for Christ's sake! I assume you do not realize this. Then you are not a developer, and none of today's announcements were targetted at you, anyway.
Thanks,
Shadow Knight
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Shadow Knight ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
SHADOWKNIGHT WORKS FOR APPLE!
CONFIRMED
<strong>For all those who told me I was being stupid for waiting for the "next big Powerbook revision," I have this to say:
I would be absolutely livid right now had I just cracked and bought a 667 a few weeks ago.
But I didn't.
I'm feeling even happier that I bought a new 800 MHz TiBook last week. My 667 was only four months old, but I'd been wanting a Cinema Display, and when I heard that the newer TiBooks had DVI, I broke down and dropped a whole lot of money on both a new TiBook and a new 22" display.
For anyone who isn't all that worried about Quartz Extreme, I know where you can get a great bargain on a nearly-new 667 MHz TiBook on eBay
<a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2022308296"; target="_blank">eBay item 2022308296 - Titanium PwrBk 667/30G/512M CD-RW/DVD Airport</a>
<strong>
You must be someone who is very easily satisfied.
I have an iBook 14inch 600Mhz with 384Ram and find OS X to be apalling. My friend's 2 year old G4 400mhz with 448MB ram totally kicks my 2 month old iBooks ass.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's totally strange, because I also have a 2 year old G4 400MHz, but it has 1.75GB of RAM (three 512MB sticks and one 256) and a GeForce2MX that I added in. The 12.1" 600MHz iBook kicks it's ass royally in Mac OS X. No comparison, the iBook is simply much faster. Maybe it's the 14" vs. the 12.1" factor? I remember this sort of thing cropping up when Mac OS X first came out... people with nigh-identical hardware having vastly different results with OS X speed. Very strange, indeed. I assure you, my 600MHz iBook is much, much faster at all non-AltiVec enhanced (which is just about everything, even on Mac OS X) tasks than my 400MHz G4 with 1.75GB of RAM under Mac OS X. Also, many other people who run Mac OS X on their iceBooks report that it runs very snappily compared to such old hardware as the 400MHz G4. So, I suggest that either you are running a non-standard system in some way (Classic doesn't even slow down my iBook, so I won't suggest that's the problem) or you have faulty hardware.
Thanks,
Shadow Knight
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Shadow Knight ]</p>
oh yeah, i DIDN'T buy the cube version from some shiester on ebay for tons of money, just a regular radeon that will fit in the cube if you remove the metal part on the end of the card. just a note to the cube owners out there who still have the 128 pro.
<hr></blockquote>
nope i'm stuck with the Rage 128 Pro, too bad i can't upgrade
<img src="graemlins/bugeye.gif" border="0" alt="[Skeptical]" />
[ 05-06-2002: Message edited by: Nostradamus ]</p>
Sure Apple might have been able to lessen the extent of Quartz hardware acceleration so that it would work on more video cards, but then it wouldn't be as good. Is that fair to those of us who shelled out extra cash for better video cards?
Do you people complain to Id when Quake runs better on more expensive video cards? Do you complain to Adobe when Photoshop runs faster on a G4 because of Altivec?
Also expect hacks that allow Quartz Extreme to run on 'unsupported' hardware.
PLUS, Jagwire (damn steve pronounciation -check cnet videos) will have a 20% speed boost from GCC3.1 alone On top of that further code optimizations, and finder multithreading.
Your comps are far from unsupported, they just cant run OS X at the fastest it's capable of, and if you bought a lower-end mac you should have expected that.
And yes all Powerbook G4 550/667's will take advantage of QEX. And all G4 towers (except for the very very first generation of G4 towers) and Cubes will, or with a vid card upgrade can take advantage of QEX. So quit your bitchen, and accept progress.
<strong>Geez you guys, do you want Apple to advance the OS or not? They can't make it run great on every piece of old hardware. It's not like it WON'T WORK on a PowerBook with 16 MB of video RAM - it just won't work as FAST.
If you have one, you'll still see improvement. If you happen to have a new one with 32 MB, you'll see maximum improvement.
It's the price of innovating and advancing, people. Get used to it. (spoken in the nicest tone possible)
OLD...???
I just bought my G4 tower LESS than a year ago... I just bought my NEW Radeon PCI card a few MONTHS ago... I was just ABOUT TO BUY a Matrox RT-Mac PCI card when the NEW drivers come out.
Old hardware...? My point is... if they're gonna do this AGP-Only thing for hrdwr accelleration... then give us MULTIPLE AGP Slots...!!!
I am (was?) on the verge of a 3-Display setup and now to find out only ONE display will reap the benefits of this Quartz-a-holic engine...?
Phuck... OF COURSE we want them to keep advancing the OS... of COURSE we want them to shoot for cutting edge... but c'mon. I'd rather see underlying CORE functionality accellerated through better optimization or compilation for MY CURRENT machine before speeding-up the eye-candy on NEWER TECHNOLOGIES!!!
I'm not a cry-baby, but I'm not a millionaire either. I cannot afford to keep shelling-out top dollar to try to reach an equilibrium with my hardware & software.
Before bumping to OSX... I got a kick-ass 64MB 3dfx VooDoo 5500 PCI card for my G4... I move to OSX... no support for it... after waiting and waiting I bite the bullet for the Radeon top-o-the-line PCI card... now I find that IT won't be good enough...?
sorry... but the wallet is thinning out too fast here. If this OS is going to be "so advanced" and so "kick-ass"... then HOLD OFF on releasing it until you make machines that BLOW AWAY THE COMPETITION... I'm talking 3X the speed of the intel, athlon world...
- breathe -
sorry... I truly am... I just get bitter at times...
peace...