What Graeme says is correct. We use configurations like this on location all the time. Often powered by an inverter fed from the van, or a generator (there are some fairly quiet ones, and they can be located so as to not cause noise pollution on the set).
Often these set-ups are used for editing dailies at a lower IQ, for the editors back "home".
The same thing is true for still location work.
Who is "we" and how many of "we" are there?
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A large number of Mac Book Pros are bought just for these purposes.
No, that's simply not true. Ask Apple. If people using the card slot are "single digit," we can assume that people using the machine as you describe are "really low single digit."
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Macbook Pros', just like the Powerbooks before them are perfect for this.
But now, an E-SATA has become a must, and there's no excuse that there isn't room in the case for one as they are so small.
1. They might have been, but Apple really didn't design them for that purpose.
2. Agreed. Don't get me wrong...if I was in your boat, I'd complain too. But realize that you're talking about a very small market segment. Apple is going more for the prosumer market with MBPs, not the actual "pro" market. Obviously that makes business sense to them.
Well, I'm retired now, but "we" stands for those doing advertising work such as for commercials, as well as film. It also includes those of us who shoot fashion and other location work.
I thought you understood that from my description.
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No, that's simply not true. Ask Apple. If people using the card slot are "single digit," we can assume that people using the machine as you describe are "really low single digit."
I don't care much for what Apple has to say. I CAN tell you that I had a few thouusand professional customers at my commercial photo lab in NYC over the years, and a very large percentage had Apple's pro laptops, and DID use them for these purposes. I keep in touch with many people in the industry, and they tell me that they still use these laptops in large numbers.
I doubt that Apple even knows where many of their products are being used, no matter what they may say .
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1. They might have been, but Apple really didn't design them for that purpose.
Apple DID design them for that purpose. They even promote the Macbook Pro FCS combo.
Laptops used to cost much more than they do today, and only those who really needed the kind of models Apple (and other even more expensive PC laptops) produced could afford to buy them, with some exceptions.
As the price of computers has come down so much, and that includes Apple's, more people have bought them, and so the "professionalism" of the buying public has lessened. That's to be expected.
But other than for a port or so, these machines are till very much professional in character. Few pros really uses many ports despite the words of some "would be" pros here.
Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be. Possibly in later models after the power over SATA ports are out.
But they did give the FW 800 port which is the best that one can expect right now. It's too bad they eliminated the Express port, but there are other ways of getting high speed CF cards, though it's another dangling adapter. Annoying, but not critical.
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2. Agreed. Don't get me wrong...if I was in your boat, I'd complain too. But realize that you're talking about a very small market segment. Apple is going more for the prosumer market with MBPs, not the actual "pro" market. Obviously that makes business sense to them.
Again, I'm not so certain their numbers actually reflect what's happening. OWC tells me that their sales of Express adapters is very good, so something is remiss as they are only one retailer. B&H also tells me that a fair number of buyers of the pro machines also buy Express adapters.
I don't know where Apple is getting those numbers from, but it's not from the pro sales outlets, that's for sure.
The confusion lies in Apples naming scheme. Apple claims that they upgraded the MB's to MBP's. In fact, what they did was downgrade the MBP's to MB's. To be sure, these are very good MacBooks. We now have a 15" MacBook. The pro line still starts at about $2000. When you think of it that way, the impact is not so severe. I have always thought that Apple should completely drop the "pro" moniker. All books should be MacBooks with different options. Then they could satisfy those who want an Express Card slot and those who do not. They could give the more expensive models dedicated graphics. One name; many configs and price-points. Calling them all "pro" will inevitably make some feel under-specked.
The confusion lies in Apples naming scheme. Apple claims that they upgraded the MB's to MBP's. In fact, what they did was downgrade the MBP's to MB's. To be sure, these are very good MacBooks. We now have a 15" MacBook. The pro line still starts at about $2000. When you think of it that way, the impact is not so severe. I have always thought that Apple should completely drop the "pro" moniker. All books should be MacBooks with different options. Then they could satisfy those who want an Express Card slot and those who do not. They could give the more expensive models dedicated graphics. One name; many configs and price-points. Calling them all "pro" will inevitably make some feel under-specked.
I don't know how important the designation is these days either.
The truth is that back when, pro features cost a lot more to implement. Even simple features could add greatly to the cost. not so much today.
I also dislike the "pro" being added to the name of any product, from any company. It means so little that I think it actually diminishes the product.
Does anyone really think that Final Cut would not be understood to be a "pro" product if the name didn't tell us?
I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".
Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.
The label has lost its meaning.
Maybe they should do what Hollywood has done with actors. The word "Star" has long lost any meaning, so they went to "Superstar" then, "Megastar".
I don't know how important the designation is these days either.
The truth is that back when, pro features cost a lot more to implement. Even simple features could add greatly to the cost. not so much today.
I also dislike the "pro" being added to the name of any product, from any company. It means so little that I think it actually diminishes the product.
Does anyone really think that Final Cut would not be understood to be a "pro" product if the name didn't tell us?
I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".
Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.
The label has lost its meaning.
Maybe they should do what Hollywood has done with actors. The word "Star" has long lost any meaning, so they went to "Superstar" then, "Megastar".
What a waste!
I'm not even sure when the pro thing crept in (on Hardware)- think it happened a few years after the 'i' crept in - Your right a label means very little. It Possibly means a hell of a lot to people trying to look 'pro' like your chap on the bus.
I don't think any other computer manufacture feels the need to differentiates hardware in this way- just Laptop, Desktop and server. Then you choose the right spec for what you do.
perhaps the next Hollywood star should be 'Hyper-Star Pro'
I'm not even sure when the pro thing crept in (on Hardware)- think it happened a few years after the 'i' crept in - Your right a label means very little. It Possibly means a hell of a lot to people trying to look 'pro' like your chap on the bus.
I don't think any other computer manufacture feels the need to differentiates hardware in this way- just Laptop, Desktop and server. Then you choose the right spec for what you do.
perhaps the next Hollywood star should be 'Hyper-Star Pro'
Yeah, it's ridiculous!
So if a lower price design has most of the features of the high price device, is it a Pro?
If the higher price lacks one or two features, is it an amateur machine?
It makes no sense. It just gives those who like to argue about what Apple (or any manufacturer) has done, some ammo.
I agree that the machines should just be designated as portable, perhaps just distinguished by size and weight, and let people buy which ones meet their needs.
Maybe Apple should call the 13" model and the lowest priced 15" model "low end Pro" models, and the top 15" with the 17" "High End Pro" models. They would have some company in the silly rarified High End audio industry.
What I think this new line-up really means for us is that Apple is planning to replace the $999 plastic Macbook, the only one left, with a new line of Macbooks. Perhaps this new line will begin with a lower priced model, now that the Pro line starts at $1,200.
Maybe we'll finally see an $899 model, or even one at $849, or $799.
That would give then enough distance from the new lower Pro models, and satisfy those who have been calling for Apple to have less expensive products in these days of deep recession.
Possibly, this will be something for Jobs to announce when he comes back at the end of the month, as sort of a returning present to everyone.
I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".
Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.
The label has lost its meaning.
I was riding in a BMW last night, it was already ten years old, but a label on the sound system said "Professional CD". It was an ordinary CD player for all that I could tell.
I was riding in a BMW last night, it was already ten years old, but a label on the sound system said "Professional CD". It was an ordinary CD player for all that I could tell.
Thats the problem with this mess.
People don't really expect cheap garbage to be professional even though they carry the label, at least I hope that more than a few don't.
Does Hassleblad need the word Pro on its cameras? Do Canon and Nikon's $8,000 models?
How about IMB's mainframes?
Where does this start, and where does it end?
All it seems to do here is give a few annoying people something to start an argument about.
What I think this new line-up really means for us is that Apple is planning to replace the $999 plastic Macbook, the only one left, with a new line of Macbooks. Perhaps this new line will begin with a lower priced model, now that the Pro line starts at $1,200.
Maybe we'll finally see an $899 model, or even one at $849, or $799.
That would give then enough distance from the new lower Pro models, and satisfy those who have been calling for Apple to have less expensive products in these days of deep recession.
Possibly, this will be something for Jobs to announce when he comes back at the end of the month, as sort of a returning present to everyone.
They did update it with the new nVidia chipset. That is confusing, because it felt like the White Mac Book was only hanging on a thread before being given the end of life status.
They did update it with the new nVidia chipset. That is confusing, because it felt like the White Mac Book was only hanging on a thread before being given the end of life status.
Doesn't it seem strange though that there would be only one Macbook left? Not much of a line. It's also an older machine, though a good one.
I think that Apple's got some tricks up its sleeve. A less expensive manufacturing method. A bigger battery a la the new Macbook Pros, a smaller, lighter form, and a lower initial price point.
It makes sense to me. Not wishful thinking as we see here sometimes as I'm not in the market for such a machine.
Well, I'm retired now, but "we" stands for those doing advertising work such as for commercials, as well as film. It also includes those of us who shoot fashion and other location work.
I thought you understood that from my description.
I was just trying you to be specific. Sorry...a little poking on my part.
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I don't care much for what Apple has to say. I CAN tell you that I had a few thouusand professional customers at my commercial photo lab in NYC over the years, and a very large percentage had Apple's pro laptops, and DID use them for these purposes. I keep in touch with many people in the industry, and they tell me that they still use these laptops in large numbers.
I doubt that Apple even knows where many of their products are being used, no matter what they may say .
Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.
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Apple DID design them for that purpose. They even promote the Macbook Pro FCS combo.
That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it.
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Laptops used to cost much more than they do today, and only those who really needed the kind of models Apple (and other even more expensive PC laptops) produced could afford to buy them, with some exceptions.
As the price of computers has come down so much, and that includes Apple's, more people have bought them, and so the "professionalism" of the buying public has lessened. That's to be expected.
I don't know. As a music educator I bought a Pismo PB when it costs $3000. Lots of people had machines like that. I think it's been lessening for a long time.
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But other than for a port or so, these machines are till very much professional in character. Few pros really uses many ports despite the words of some "would be" pros here.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
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Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be. Possibly in later models after the power over SATA ports are out.
But they did give the FW 800 port which is the best that one can expect right now. It's too bad they eliminated the Express port, but there are other ways of getting high speed CF cards, though it's another dangling adapter. Annoying, but not critical.
Personally I'd rather see a FW 400 port too. I have to get adapters for anything I use that was FW400 now.
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Again, I'm not so certain their numbers actually reflect what's happening. OWC tells me that their sales of Express adapters is very good, so something is remiss as they are only one retailer. B&H also tells me that a fair number of buyers of the pro machines also buy Express adapters.
I don't know where Apple is getting those numbers from, but it's not from the pro sales outlets, that's for sure.
That doesn't really prove anything. How many have they sold? Were their sales good before? And you realize we are talking millions of MBPs. If OWC sells 10,000 adapters, that's probably not even 1% of the market per year.
Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.
You would be surprised at how companies *wish* their users were mostly doing one thing when they are actually doing something else.
Apple is very well known for trying to push their customers into moving in a direction that Apple wants them to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those occasions.
We are all quite aware of their policies in several areas in which they do what they want, and not what we want.
They may make a statement about percentages, but I doubt they actually are doing more than guessing.
You can be sure they think about the changes they make, but the reasons they make them may not be the reasons you think they are. It could very well be that Apple wanted to get rig of the expensive, and roomy Express socket and circuitry and replace it with this because they THINK it will result in higher sales and lower costs. They may be right, but they may be wrong about the sales. The lower prices of the models will help sales, but the difference from the Express port may not contribute much to that.
This looks to me to be as much a matter of maintaining margins in an era of lower prices computers from them than anything else.
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That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it.
now whose making the silly remark? Of course they did!
You expect them to design a machine with ports that can't all be used at once? You expect that there are people who don't use them all at once? Because if you do, you'd be wrong. There are many instances where all the ports are in use at once, even if only a small percentage of pros need to do that. I shouldn't have to give you scenarios for this.
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I don't know. As a music educator I bought a Pismo PB when it costs $3000. Lots of people had machines like that. I think it's been lessening for a long time.
That's not expensive. Laptops used to cost $7,000 for the better pro models. $3,000 is nothing. And that's taking inflation into account.
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That's exactly what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that all pros use all ports all the time. But those that do, need them. It's always sad when a more sophisticated port goes away in favor of a much less useful one, esp. when the better port can be used for the simpler tasks, but not visa versa.
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Personally I'd rather see a FW 400 port too. I have to get adapters for anything I use that was FW400 now.
That's trivial. Buy a couple of $10 adapters. I can't see as how you think that having to need a dangling (expensive FW 800) CF card adapter is less important than your buying an 800 to 400 adapter. That's backwards thinking.
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That doesn't really prove anything. How many have they sold? Were their sales good before? And you realize we are talking millions of MBPs. If OWC sells 10,000 adapters, that's probably not even 1% of the market per year.
We're not talking about millions of Macbook Pros. We're talking about hundreds of thousands per quarter. The biggie is the Macbook line.
And OWC is far from the only outlets selling these adapters. As I mentioned, B&H sells them in large numbers. I'm sure all other outlets sell them as well. Maybe Apple sees one percent in their own stores, and that's where their numbers come from.
Now, because of the lower pricing, they will sell many more.
]That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it. .
Hi Didn't realise id cause this long discussion when i said the new 15" wouldn't be any good for me. ( i guess thats naivety for you
I'm really not using my MBP or FCP in a way it wasn't designed for- I'm really not.
You seem to have the impression all my ports are running red hot! and my computer is about to melt.
It's not that i need data streaming all day long through every orifice on my laptop- but at some point each day i will need access to all of them. so variety is important. and most of my tasks need something better than USB (better suited that is).
If i get a chance later - and it is of interest to you- ill list the actual kit I've got plugged in and the processes involved.
You would be surprised at how companies *wish* their users were mostly doing one thing when they are actually doing something else.
Apple is very well known for trying to push their customers into moving in a direction that Apple wants them to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those occasions.
We are all quite aware of their policies in several areas in which they do what they want, and not what we want.
They may make a statement about percentages, but I doubt they actually are doing more than guessing.
Oh, come on. They're not dumb. They just made a business decision you don't like. Yes, they have been known to push users. They started this with the elimination of floppy drives. But even that was still a calculated risk. They realized that with e-mail, not many people really needed floppy drives anymore, just like not many people need express card slots (not the express cards are obsolete...I realize that's different).
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You can be sure they think about the changes they make, but the reasons they make them may not be the reasons you think they are. It could very well be that Apple wanted to get rig of the expensive, and roomy Express socket and circuitry and replace it with this because they THINK it will result in higher sales and lower costs. They may be right, but they may be wrong about the sales. The lower prices of the models will help sales, but the difference from the Express port may not contribute much to that.
This looks to me to be as much a matter of maintaining margins in an era of lower prices computers from them than anything else.
Who cares. They did it because they realized that it wouldn't adversely affect sales. Of course, they aren't perfect. They could be wrong, but they are usually not given how their sales over the last 10 years.
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now whose making the silly remark? Of course they did!
You expect them to design a machine with ports that can't all be used at once? You expect that there are people who don't use them all at once? Because if you do, you'd be wrong. There are many instances where all the ports are in use at once, even if only a small percentage of pros need to do that. I shouldn't have to give you scenarios for this.
OK, now you're just parsing and nitpicking my argument instead of trying to grasp the overall point. Obviously you can physically use all the ports at once. I don't know how many people do, but you can...it's not outside the design spec. All I'm saying is that Apple did not design the machine to be a dockable workstation, where the machine is really just acting as a monitor and keyboard. To argue otherwise is just silly. Everything in their marketing shows that it's designed to:
--Edit photos and video with the internal HDD or external FW HDD
--Run pro software for audio, video and photo
--Run consumer software such as productivity apps and games.
--Sync with mobile devices
--Access internet, e-mail, etc.
That list is not intended to be exhaustive. They accomplish these goals by upgrading the processor, RAM, HDD and screen. Just look at their marketing. I don't see anything about mirrored drive arrays, multiple video decks, etc.
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That's not expensive. Laptops used to cost $7,000 for the better pro models. $3,000 is nothing. And that's taking inflation into account.
Disingenuous. The only one that cost that much was the absolutely loaded Wall Street model. And that didn't last long. I bought the top end Pismo for $3200. Unless you maxed out the RAM through Apple, you weren't going to spend $7K. Lots of people bought "pro" machines who were actually prosumers.
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I'm not saying that all pros use all ports all the time. But those that do, need them. It's always sad when a more sophisticated port goes away in favor of a much less useful one, esp. when the better port can be used for the simpler tasks, but not visa versa.
That makes sense.
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That's trivial. Buy a couple of $10 adapters. I can't see as how you think that having to need a dangling (expensive FW 800) CF card adapter is less important than your buying an 800 to 400 adapter. That's backwards thinking.
Do you really need to use a strawman tactic here? I never claimed it was more important or that my wishlist item was anything other than trivial. It was just a comment.
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We're not talking about millions of Macbook Pros. We're talking about hundreds of thousands per quarter. The biggie is the Macbook line.
I didn't specify quarterly or annually. Apple is selling about 10,000,000 macs per year (about 2.5 million per quarter). Of that, laptops account for 60%, or 6,000,000 units. I can't find breakout numbers, but let's assume they are selling 2,000,000 MBPs. To convince me that removing the port is a serious impediment for "pros," you'd have to show me sales of adapters of more than single digits...say 200,00 per year. Frankly, i'd be impressed if that number was 50,000 adapters, or 2.5% of the market.
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And OWC is far from the only outlets selling these adapters. As I mentioned, B&H sells them in large numbers. I'm sure all other outlets sell them as well. Maybe Apple sees one percent in their own stores, and that's where their numbers come from.
Now, because of the lower pricing, they will sell many more.
Who cares. Over the next year we could take several large adapter retailers and get their numbers. Then we'd know.
Hi Didn't realise id cause this long discussion when i said the new 15" wouldn't be any good for me. ( i guess thats naivety for you
I'm really not using my MBP or FCP in a way it wasn't designed for- I'm really not.
You seem to have the impression all my ports are running red hot! and my computer is about to melt.
It's not that i need data streaming all day long through every orifice on my laptop- but at some point each day i will need access to all of them. so variety is important. and most of my tasks need something better than USB (better suited that is).
If i get a chance later - and it is of interest to you- ill list the actual kit I've got plugged in and the processes involved.
That was my quote, actually. But I wasn't claiming the ports were melting the machine...just that Apple is really not marketing its machine to people who use them like you do. That much is obvious. Don't get me wrong...I would be irritated if I was you. You had a machine that could do x, y and z, and now it can only do x and perhaps y. My issue is with your comments was the claim that Apple designed these machines specifically for the kind of thing you do...which is not true. That doesn't mean the laptop won't work just fine...it's just that their data shows that you are not a large part of their market (not your field...just your connectivity needs).
Oh, come on. They're not dumb. They just made a business decision you don't like. Yes, they have been known to push users. They started this with the elimination of floppy drives. But even that was still a calculated risk. They realized that with e-mail, not many people really needed floppy drives anymore, just like not many people need express card slots (not the express cards are obsolete...I realize that's different).
They're not dumb. But you're making an assumption you shouldn't.
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Who cares. They did it because they realized that it wouldn't adversely affect sales. Of course, they aren't perfect. They could be wrong, but they are usually not given how their sales over the last 10 years.
Now you're going back on what you just said. Over the past five years or so their sales have been very good. Past that timeframe, not so good.
The iPod is what made them what they are today, and they didn't understand just what they had at first. Once they did, they took good advantage of it. But they fall into things.
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OK, now you're just parsing and nitpicking my argument instead of trying to grasp the overall point. Obviously you can physically use all the ports at once. I don't know how many people do, but you can...it's not outside the design spec. All I'm saying is that Apple did not design the machine to be a dockable workstation, where the machine is really just acting as a monitor and keyboard. To argue otherwise is just silly. Everything in their marketing shows that it's designed to:
--Edit photos and video with the internal HDD or external FW HDD
--Run pro software for audio, video and photo
--Run consumer software such as productivity apps and games.
--Sync with mobile devices
--Access internet, e-mail, etc.
That list is not intended to be exhaustive. They accomplish these goals by upgrading the processor, RAM, HDD and screen. Just look at their marketing. I don't see anything about mirrored drive arrays, multiple video decks, etc.
What does a dockable workstation have to do with anything? You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.
Deal with reality.
9quote]
Disingenuous. The only one that cost that much was the absolutely loaded Wall Street model. And that didn't last long. I bought the top end Pismo for $3200. Unless you maxed out the RAM through Apple, you weren't going to spend $7K. Lots of people bought "pro" machines who were actually prosumers. [/quote]
You haven;t been around much, have you? Apple's top Powerbooks cost around that price for years, and some PC models cost even more. These weren't some special souped up models either.
9quote0
Do you really need to use a strawman tactic here? I never claimed it was more important or that my wishlist item was anything other than trivial. It was just a comment. [/quote]
You know, you can't complain about some minor thing, and then claim that I'm setting up a strawman situation when I mention, in response, something far more important that I wouldn't have mentioned at all if you had not complained in the first place. Do you think that your minor problems are more important than others' more important ones?
Just respond, and don't pretend that the issues I bring up are less important than the ones you bring up.
If you keep doing that it will only continue to show that you don't have much of an argument in response.
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I didn't specify quarterly or annually. Apple is selling about 10,000,000 macs per year (about 2.5 million per quarter). Of that, laptops account for 60%, or 6,000,000 units. I can't find breakout numbers, but let's assume they are selling 2,000,000 MBPs. To convince me that removing the port is a serious impediment for "pros," you'd have to show me sales of adapters of more than single digits...say 200,00 per year. Frankly, i'd be impressed if that number was 50,000 adapters, or 2.5% of the market.
I don't care if you're impressed or not. You obviously aren't familiar with the pro market for these machines, and so I am beginning to think there's not much point in continuing this.
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Who cares. Over the next year we could take several large adapter retailers and get their numbers. Then we'd know.
Comments
Macbook pro / FCP are frequently sold together as turnkey systems.
Your right that the 15" MBP has now been designed not to meet these needs. but up until last week it was implicitly designed for these needs.
definitely. it does seem they are trying to squeeze the pro creatives into the 17" slot.
although, i don't know how ppl can cut in FCP all day on a 15", without an external monitor that is.
What Graeme says is correct. We use configurations like this on location all the time. Often powered by an inverter fed from the van, or a generator (there are some fairly quiet ones, and they can be located so as to not cause noise pollution on the set).
Often these set-ups are used for editing dailies at a lower IQ, for the editors back "home".
The same thing is true for still location work.
Who is "we" and how many of "we" are there?
A large number of Mac Book Pros are bought just for these purposes.
No, that's simply not true. Ask Apple. If people using the card slot are "single digit," we can assume that people using the machine as you describe are "really low single digit."
Macbook Pros', just like the Powerbooks before them are perfect for this.
But now, an E-SATA has become a must, and there's no excuse that there isn't room in the case for one as they are so small.
1. They might have been, but Apple really didn't design them for that purpose.
2. Agreed. Don't get me wrong...if I was in your boat, I'd complain too. But realize that you're talking about a very small market segment. Apple is going more for the prosumer market with MBPs, not the actual "pro" market. Obviously that makes business sense to them.
Who is "we" and how many of "we" are there?
Well, I'm retired now, but "we" stands for those doing advertising work such as for commercials, as well as film. It also includes those of us who shoot fashion and other location work.
I thought you understood that from my description.
No, that's simply not true. Ask Apple. If people using the card slot are "single digit," we can assume that people using the machine as you describe are "really low single digit."
I don't care much for what Apple has to say. I CAN tell you that I had a few thouusand professional customers at my commercial photo lab in NYC over the years, and a very large percentage had Apple's pro laptops, and DID use them for these purposes. I keep in touch with many people in the industry, and they tell me that they still use these laptops in large numbers.
I doubt that Apple even knows where many of their products are being used, no matter what they may say .
1. They might have been, but Apple really didn't design them for that purpose.
Apple DID design them for that purpose. They even promote the Macbook Pro FCS combo.
Laptops used to cost much more than they do today, and only those who really needed the kind of models Apple (and other even more expensive PC laptops) produced could afford to buy them, with some exceptions.
As the price of computers has come down so much, and that includes Apple's, more people have bought them, and so the "professionalism" of the buying public has lessened. That's to be expected.
But other than for a port or so, these machines are till very much professional in character. Few pros really uses many ports despite the words of some "would be" pros here.
Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be. Possibly in later models after the power over SATA ports are out.
But they did give the FW 800 port which is the best that one can expect right now. It's too bad they eliminated the Express port, but there are other ways of getting high speed CF cards, though it's another dangling adapter. Annoying, but not critical.
2. Agreed. Don't get me wrong...if I was in your boat, I'd complain too. But realize that you're talking about a very small market segment. Apple is going more for the prosumer market with MBPs, not the actual "pro" market. Obviously that makes business sense to them.
Again, I'm not so certain their numbers actually reflect what's happening. OWC tells me that their sales of Express adapters is very good, so something is remiss as they are only one retailer. B&H also tells me that a fair number of buyers of the pro machines also buy Express adapters.
I don't know where Apple is getting those numbers from, but it's not from the pro sales outlets, that's for sure.
The confusion lies in Apples naming scheme. Apple claims that they upgraded the MB's to MBP's. In fact, what they did was downgrade the MBP's to MB's. To be sure, these are very good MacBooks. We now have a 15" MacBook. The pro line still starts at about $2000. When you think of it that way, the impact is not so severe. I have always thought that Apple should completely drop the "pro" moniker. All books should be MacBooks with different options. Then they could satisfy those who want an Express Card slot and those who do not. They could give the more expensive models dedicated graphics. One name; many configs and price-points. Calling them all "pro" will inevitably make some feel under-specked.
I don't know how important the designation is these days either.
The truth is that back when, pro features cost a lot more to implement. Even simple features could add greatly to the cost. not so much today.
I also dislike the "pro" being added to the name of any product, from any company. It means so little that I think it actually diminishes the product.
Does anyone really think that Final Cut would not be understood to be a "pro" product if the name didn't tell us?
I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".
Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.
The label has lost its meaning.
Maybe they should do what Hollywood has done with actors. The word "Star" has long lost any meaning, so they went to "Superstar" then, "Megastar".
What a waste!
I don't know how important the designation is these days either.
The truth is that back when, pro features cost a lot more to implement. Even simple features could add greatly to the cost. not so much today.
I also dislike the "pro" being added to the name of any product, from any company. It means so little that I think it actually diminishes the product.
Does anyone really think that Final Cut would not be understood to be a "pro" product if the name didn't tell us?
I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".
Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.
The label has lost its meaning.
Maybe they should do what Hollywood has done with actors. The word "Star" has long lost any meaning, so they went to "Superstar" then, "Megastar".
What a waste!
I'm not even sure when the pro thing crept in (on Hardware)- think it happened a few years after the 'i' crept in - Your right a label means very little. It Possibly means a hell of a lot to people trying to look 'pro' like your chap on the bus.
I don't think any other computer manufacture feels the need to differentiates hardware in this way- just Laptop, Desktop and server. Then you choose the right spec for what you do.
perhaps the next Hollywood star should be 'Hyper-Star Pro'
I'm not even sure when the pro thing crept in (on Hardware)- think it happened a few years after the 'i' crept in - Your right a label means very little. It Possibly means a hell of a lot to people trying to look 'pro' like your chap on the bus.
I don't think any other computer manufacture feels the need to differentiates hardware in this way- just Laptop, Desktop and server. Then you choose the right spec for what you do.
perhaps the next Hollywood star should be 'Hyper-Star Pro'
Yeah, it's ridiculous!
So if a lower price design has most of the features of the high price device, is it a Pro?
If the higher price lacks one or two features, is it an amateur machine?
It makes no sense. It just gives those who like to argue about what Apple (or any manufacturer) has done, some ammo.
I agree that the machines should just be designated as portable, perhaps just distinguished by size and weight, and let people buy which ones meet their needs.
Maybe Apple should call the 13" model and the lowest priced 15" model "low end Pro" models, and the top 15" with the 17" "High End Pro" models. They would have some company in the silly rarified High End audio industry.
Maybe we'll finally see an $899 model, or even one at $849, or $799.
That would give then enough distance from the new lower Pro models, and satisfy those who have been calling for Apple to have less expensive products in these days of deep recession.
Possibly, this will be something for Jobs to announce when he comes back at the end of the month, as sort of a returning present to everyone.
Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be.
What makes it more exasperating is that it is possible to integrate the USB and esata ports into one. Lots of Windows PCs do this to save space.
I remember more than a few years ago, sitting in a train here in NYC when I saw some guy getting on and sitting nearby with a big box with a Symphonic audio system that said, in large letters "Professional".
Well, it couldn't have cost much more than $125 for the whole thing.
The label has lost its meaning.
I was riding in a BMW last night, it was already ten years old, but a label on the sound system said "Professional CD". It was an ordinary CD player for all that I could tell.
What makes it more exasperating is that it is possible to integrate the USB and esata ports into one. Lots of Windows PCs do this to save space.
I haven't noticed that. could you show an example?
I was riding in a BMW last night, it was already ten years old, but a label on the sound system said "Professional CD". It was an ordinary CD player for all that I could tell.
Thats the problem with this mess.
People don't really expect cheap garbage to be professional even though they carry the label, at least I hope that more than a few don't.
Does Hassleblad need the word Pro on its cameras? Do Canon and Nikon's $8,000 models?
How about IMB's mainframes?
Where does this start, and where does it end?
All it seems to do here is give a few annoying people something to start an argument about.
What I think this new line-up really means for us is that Apple is planning to replace the $999 plastic Macbook, the only one left, with a new line of Macbooks. Perhaps this new line will begin with a lower priced model, now that the Pro line starts at $1,200.
Maybe we'll finally see an $899 model, or even one at $849, or $799.
That would give then enough distance from the new lower Pro models, and satisfy those who have been calling for Apple to have less expensive products in these days of deep recession.
Possibly, this will be something for Jobs to announce when he comes back at the end of the month, as sort of a returning present to everyone.
They did update it with the new nVidia chipset. That is confusing, because it felt like the White Mac Book was only hanging on a thread before being given the end of life status.
They did update it with the new nVidia chipset. That is confusing, because it felt like the White Mac Book was only hanging on a thread before being given the end of life status.
Doesn't it seem strange though that there would be only one Macbook left? Not much of a line. It's also an older machine, though a good one.
I think that Apple's got some tricks up its sleeve. A less expensive manufacturing method. A bigger battery a la the new Macbook Pros, a smaller, lighter form, and a lower initial price point.
It makes sense to me. Not wishful thinking as we see here sometimes as I'm not in the market for such a machine.
Well, I'm retired now, but "we" stands for those doing advertising work such as for commercials, as well as film. It also includes those of us who shoot fashion and other location work.
I thought you understood that from my description.
I was just trying you to be specific. Sorry...a little poking on my part.
I don't care much for what Apple has to say. I CAN tell you that I had a few thouusand professional customers at my commercial photo lab in NYC over the years, and a very large percentage had Apple's pro laptops, and DID use them for these purposes. I keep in touch with many people in the industry, and they tell me that they still use these laptops in large numbers.
I doubt that Apple even knows where many of their products are being used, no matter what they may say .
Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.
Apple DID design them for that purpose. They even promote the Macbook Pro FCS combo.
That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it.
Laptops used to cost much more than they do today, and only those who really needed the kind of models Apple (and other even more expensive PC laptops) produced could afford to buy them, with some exceptions.
As the price of computers has come down so much, and that includes Apple's, more people have bought them, and so the "professionalism" of the buying public has lessened. That's to be expected.
I don't know. As a music educator I bought a Pismo PB when it costs $3000. Lots of people had machines like that. I think it's been lessening for a long time.
But other than for a port or so, these machines are till very much professional in character. Few pros really uses many ports despite the words of some "would be" pros here.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
Many pros would like an E-SATA port, but for now, that's not to be. Possibly in later models after the power over SATA ports are out.
But they did give the FW 800 port which is the best that one can expect right now. It's too bad they eliminated the Express port, but there are other ways of getting high speed CF cards, though it's another dangling adapter. Annoying, but not critical.
Personally I'd rather see a FW 400 port too. I have to get adapters for anything I use that was FW400 now.
Again, I'm not so certain their numbers actually reflect what's happening. OWC tells me that their sales of Express adapters is very good, so something is remiss as they are only one retailer. B&H also tells me that a fair number of buyers of the pro machines also buy Express adapters.
I don't know where Apple is getting those numbers from, but it's not from the pro sales outlets, that's for sure.
That doesn't really prove anything. How many have they sold? Were their sales good before? And you realize we are talking millions of MBPs. If OWC sells 10,000 adapters, that's probably not even 1% of the market per year.
Well that's just silly. Apple doesn't take a whiz without a plan. They know who there users are. They don't just change a spec like this without thinking about it.
You would be surprised at how companies *wish* their users were mostly doing one thing when they are actually doing something else.
Apple is very well known for trying to push their customers into moving in a direction that Apple wants them to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those occasions.
We are all quite aware of their policies in several areas in which they do what they want, and not what we want.
They may make a statement about percentages, but I doubt they actually are doing more than guessing.
You can be sure they think about the changes they make, but the reasons they make them may not be the reasons you think they are. It could very well be that Apple wanted to get rig of the expensive, and roomy Express socket and circuitry and replace it with this because they THINK it will result in higher sales and lower costs. They may be right, but they may be wrong about the sales. The lower prices of the models will help sales, but the difference from the Express port may not contribute much to that.
This looks to me to be as much a matter of maintaining margins in an era of lower prices computers from them than anything else.
That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it.
now whose making the silly remark? Of course they did!
You expect them to design a machine with ports that can't all be used at once? You expect that there are people who don't use them all at once? Because if you do, you'd be wrong. There are many instances where all the ports are in use at once, even if only a small percentage of pros need to do that. I shouldn't have to give you scenarios for this.
I don't know. As a music educator I bought a Pismo PB when it costs $3000. Lots of people had machines like that. I think it's been lessening for a long time.
That's not expensive. Laptops used to cost $7,000 for the better pro models. $3,000 is nothing. And that's taking inflation into account.
That's exactly what I'm saying.
I'm not saying that all pros use all ports all the time. But those that do, need them. It's always sad when a more sophisticated port goes away in favor of a much less useful one, esp. when the better port can be used for the simpler tasks, but not visa versa.
Personally I'd rather see a FW 400 port too. I have to get adapters for anything I use that was FW400 now.
That's trivial. Buy a couple of $10 adapters. I can't see as how you think that having to need a dangling (expensive FW 800) CF card adapter is less important than your buying an 800 to 400 adapter. That's backwards thinking.
That doesn't really prove anything. How many have they sold? Were their sales good before? And you realize we are talking millions of MBPs. If OWC sells 10,000 adapters, that's probably not even 1% of the market per year.
We're not talking about millions of Macbook Pros. We're talking about hundreds of thousands per quarter. The biggie is the Macbook line.
And OWC is far from the only outlets selling these adapters. As I mentioned, B&H sells them in large numbers. I'm sure all other outlets sell them as well. Maybe Apple sees one percent in their own stores, and that's where their numbers come from.
Now, because of the lower pricing, they will sell many more.
]That doesn't mean they designed them for using all the ports (including ethernet and express card) simultaneously. They didn't design it to use RAID, Firewire 400 and 800, ethernet, an external monitor, video decks and external drives all at the same time. They designed them to import video--possibly to an external drive or possibly not---and then edit it. .
Hi Didn't realise id cause this long discussion when i said the new 15" wouldn't be any good for me. ( i guess thats naivety for you
I'm really not using my MBP or FCP in a way it wasn't designed for- I'm really not.
You seem to have the impression all my ports are running red hot! and my computer is about to melt.
It's not that i need data streaming all day long through every orifice on my laptop- but at some point each day i will need access to all of them. so variety is important. and most of my tasks need something better than USB (better suited that is).
If i get a chance later - and it is of interest to you- ill list the actual kit I've got plugged in and the processes involved.
You would be surprised at how companies *wish* their users were mostly doing one thing when they are actually doing something else.
Apple is very well known for trying to push their customers into moving in a direction that Apple wants them to move in. I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of those occasions.
We are all quite aware of their policies in several areas in which they do what they want, and not what we want.
They may make a statement about percentages, but I doubt they actually are doing more than guessing.
Oh, come on. They're not dumb. They just made a business decision you don't like. Yes, they have been known to push users. They started this with the elimination of floppy drives. But even that was still a calculated risk. They realized that with e-mail, not many people really needed floppy drives anymore, just like not many people need express card slots (not the express cards are obsolete...I realize that's different).
You can be sure they think about the changes they make, but the reasons they make them may not be the reasons you think they are. It could very well be that Apple wanted to get rig of the expensive, and roomy Express socket and circuitry and replace it with this because they THINK it will result in higher sales and lower costs. They may be right, but they may be wrong about the sales. The lower prices of the models will help sales, but the difference from the Express port may not contribute much to that.
This looks to me to be as much a matter of maintaining margins in an era of lower prices computers from them than anything else.
Who cares. They did it because they realized that it wouldn't adversely affect sales. Of course, they aren't perfect. They could be wrong, but they are usually not given how their sales over the last 10 years.
now whose making the silly remark? Of course they did!
You expect them to design a machine with ports that can't all be used at once? You expect that there are people who don't use them all at once? Because if you do, you'd be wrong. There are many instances where all the ports are in use at once, even if only a small percentage of pros need to do that. I shouldn't have to give you scenarios for this.
OK, now you're just parsing and nitpicking my argument instead of trying to grasp the overall point. Obviously you can physically use all the ports at once. I don't know how many people do, but you can...it's not outside the design spec. All I'm saying is that Apple did not design the machine to be a dockable workstation, where the machine is really just acting as a monitor and keyboard. To argue otherwise is just silly. Everything in their marketing shows that it's designed to:
--Edit photos and video with the internal HDD or external FW HDD
--Run pro software for audio, video and photo
--Run consumer software such as productivity apps and games.
--Sync with mobile devices
--Access internet, e-mail, etc.
That list is not intended to be exhaustive. They accomplish these goals by upgrading the processor, RAM, HDD and screen. Just look at their marketing. I don't see anything about mirrored drive arrays, multiple video decks, etc.
That's not expensive. Laptops used to cost $7,000 for the better pro models. $3,000 is nothing. And that's taking inflation into account.
Disingenuous. The only one that cost that much was the absolutely loaded Wall Street model. And that didn't last long. I bought the top end Pismo for $3200. Unless you maxed out the RAM through Apple, you weren't going to spend $7K. Lots of people bought "pro" machines who were actually prosumers.
I'm not saying that all pros use all ports all the time. But those that do, need them. It's always sad when a more sophisticated port goes away in favor of a much less useful one, esp. when the better port can be used for the simpler tasks, but not visa versa.
That makes sense.
That's trivial. Buy a couple of $10 adapters. I can't see as how you think that having to need a dangling (expensive FW 800) CF card adapter is less important than your buying an 800 to 400 adapter. That's backwards thinking.
Do you really need to use a strawman tactic here? I never claimed it was more important or that my wishlist item was anything other than trivial. It was just a comment.
We're not talking about millions of Macbook Pros. We're talking about hundreds of thousands per quarter. The biggie is the Macbook line.
I didn't specify quarterly or annually. Apple is selling about 10,000,000 macs per year (about 2.5 million per quarter). Of that, laptops account for 60%, or 6,000,000 units. I can't find breakout numbers, but let's assume they are selling 2,000,000 MBPs. To convince me that removing the port is a serious impediment for "pros," you'd have to show me sales of adapters of more than single digits...say 200,00 per year. Frankly, i'd be impressed if that number was 50,000 adapters, or 2.5% of the market.
And OWC is far from the only outlets selling these adapters. As I mentioned, B&H sells them in large numbers. I'm sure all other outlets sell them as well. Maybe Apple sees one percent in their own stores, and that's where their numbers come from.
Now, because of the lower pricing, they will sell many more.
Who cares. Over the next year we could take several large adapter retailers and get their numbers. Then we'd know.
Hi Didn't realise id cause this long discussion when i said the new 15" wouldn't be any good for me. ( i guess thats naivety for you
I'm really not using my MBP or FCP in a way it wasn't designed for- I'm really not.
You seem to have the impression all my ports are running red hot! and my computer is about to melt.
It's not that i need data streaming all day long through every orifice on my laptop- but at some point each day i will need access to all of them. so variety is important. and most of my tasks need something better than USB (better suited that is).
If i get a chance later - and it is of interest to you- ill list the actual kit I've got plugged in and the processes involved.
That was my quote, actually. But I wasn't claiming the ports were melting the machine...just that Apple is really not marketing its machine to people who use them like you do. That much is obvious. Don't get me wrong...I would be irritated if I was you. You had a machine that could do x, y and z, and now it can only do x and perhaps y. My issue is with your comments was the claim that Apple designed these machines specifically for the kind of thing you do...which is not true. That doesn't mean the laptop won't work just fine...it's just that their data shows that you are not a large part of their market (not your field...just your connectivity needs).
Oh, come on. They're not dumb. They just made a business decision you don't like. Yes, they have been known to push users. They started this with the elimination of floppy drives. But even that was still a calculated risk. They realized that with e-mail, not many people really needed floppy drives anymore, just like not many people need express card slots (not the express cards are obsolete...I realize that's different).
They're not dumb. But you're making an assumption you shouldn't.
Who cares. They did it because they realized that it wouldn't adversely affect sales. Of course, they aren't perfect. They could be wrong, but they are usually not given how their sales over the last 10 years.
Now you're going back on what you just said. Over the past five years or so their sales have been very good. Past that timeframe, not so good.
The iPod is what made them what they are today, and they didn't understand just what they had at first. Once they did, they took good advantage of it. But they fall into things.
OK, now you're just parsing and nitpicking my argument instead of trying to grasp the overall point. Obviously you can physically use all the ports at once. I don't know how many people do, but you can...it's not outside the design spec. All I'm saying is that Apple did not design the machine to be a dockable workstation, where the machine is really just acting as a monitor and keyboard. To argue otherwise is just silly. Everything in their marketing shows that it's designed to:
--Edit photos and video with the internal HDD or external FW HDD
--Run pro software for audio, video and photo
--Run consumer software such as productivity apps and games.
--Sync with mobile devices
--Access internet, e-mail, etc.
That list is not intended to be exhaustive. They accomplish these goals by upgrading the processor, RAM, HDD and screen. Just look at their marketing. I don't see anything about mirrored drive arrays, multiple video decks, etc.
What does a dockable workstation have to do with anything? You can't just make up a product class for them and say that if their products don't meet YOUR standards of what they should be, then they don't meet some indescribable level of performance and usability that YOU have determined they should if they are to be considered to be something that YOU say they are not.
Deal with reality.
9quote]
Disingenuous. The only one that cost that much was the absolutely loaded Wall Street model. And that didn't last long. I bought the top end Pismo for $3200. Unless you maxed out the RAM through Apple, you weren't going to spend $7K. Lots of people bought "pro" machines who were actually prosumers. [/quote]
You haven;t been around much, have you? Apple's top Powerbooks cost around that price for years, and some PC models cost even more. These weren't some special souped up models either.
9quote0
Do you really need to use a strawman tactic here? I never claimed it was more important or that my wishlist item was anything other than trivial. It was just a comment. [/quote]
You know, you can't complain about some minor thing, and then claim that I'm setting up a strawman situation when I mention, in response, something far more important that I wouldn't have mentioned at all if you had not complained in the first place. Do you think that your minor problems are more important than others' more important ones?
Just respond, and don't pretend that the issues I bring up are less important than the ones you bring up.
If you keep doing that it will only continue to show that you don't have much of an argument in response.
I didn't specify quarterly or annually. Apple is selling about 10,000,000 macs per year (about 2.5 million per quarter). Of that, laptops account for 60%, or 6,000,000 units. I can't find breakout numbers, but let's assume they are selling 2,000,000 MBPs. To convince me that removing the port is a serious impediment for "pros," you'd have to show me sales of adapters of more than single digits...say 200,00 per year. Frankly, i'd be impressed if that number was 50,000 adapters, or 2.5% of the market.
I don't care if you're impressed or not. You obviously aren't familiar with the pro market for these machines, and so I am beginning to think there's not much point in continuing this.
Who cares. Over the next year we could take several large adapter retailers and get their numbers. Then we'd know.
You're right, who cares.
I'm dropping it.