Ballmer called Apple as a ?fine company? doing well with a low-volume, high-price strategy, but claimed Microsoft hasn't lost market share to Apple over the past year, and that any changes in reported share numbers are just ?a rounding error.? Share gains by Apple "cost us nothing," Ballmer said. "Hopefully, we?ll take share back from Apple. But they still sell only 10 million PCs a year, so it?s a limited opportunity."
Balmer is such a condescending prick and MS could only gain by giving him the boot.
As a strategist and a public speaker, he's simply seen as an embarrassment to the company but with zillions in stocks, they can't figure out how to get rid of him.
I am a big Apple fan. But I own a lot of Microsoft stock. Ballmer is driving me crazy. He should not be in charge of Microsoft. His vision seems to consist of dismissing real competitive threats when they appear, and then blindly and belatedly chasing the markets he scoffed at months before.
MS/PC manufacturers (Dell, HP, etc.) find themselves in a very common business situation-diminishing profit margins where they all end up chasing the bottom.
Yes, that seems to be the situation, alright.
So are we seeing the end of the low-cost netbook? Or is this Google's shot?
Besides what Quadra 620 said, MS doesn?t make the same from different priced OSes. They make a lot more on a higher version of Windows than they do a lesser version.
I understand that.
Quote:
Those cheap PCs that Windows and the majority PC HW vendors dominate usually come with a lower-tier version of Windows.
Are you sure about that?
I don't live in the US so I cannot be certain but go take a look at the Best Buy web site. There are about 90 PC laptops for sale. Almost all of them come loaded with Vista Home Premium. Prices range from about $400 -$2000.
That's my point really. Even though PC hardware prices are dropping people are still paying (in general) for the same Windows version.
Even though, in a poor economy, people are choosing even cheaper PC models (and Microsoft seems to be actively encouraging that) they are still getting the same Windows version.
I don't know, but is it even possible to get an OS downgrade when you buy from a bricks and mortar store?
The only area where Microsoft is taking a hit is the fast growing Netbook market... and that is what this thread was all about.
I am a big Apple fan. But I own a lot of Microsoft stock. Ballmer is driving me crazy. He should not be in charge of Microsoft. His vision seems to consist of dismissing real competitive threats when they appear, and then blindly and belatedly chasing the markets he scoffed at months before.
This is costing me a fortune.
Great time to sell! M$ has nowhere to go but down ...
Please stop with the glorified titles Prince. MS are not the devil, you know.
Here in the States some of us think of Tom Waits as our poet laureate and he says:
[CENTER]Boney's high on China White
Shorty found a p-p-punk
Don't you know there ain't no Devil
There's just God when he's drunk[/CENTER]
So of course Microsoft aren't the Devil, cause there is no Devil! But M$ are indeed the embodiment of corporate evil in the tech sector, so cut Prince some slack ... he's got every right to hate them as much as he wants!
Netbooks are about as far from $1k range as you can get. Increase the price on a $300 netbook by $50, and it's still hardly close to $1k. MS cut the licensing cost on netbooks as a special price class alone, any price adjustment in the netbook class won't make the regular notebooks any more expensive. I think there were restrictions on screen size, CPU speed and RAM to qualify for a netbook license.
I haven't seen Linux on anything close to 1 out of 10 netbooks for sale at retail. There were more in the earlier days, but they dried up pretty quickly.
First, this pricing influences ALL PCs, not just netbooks.
Second, about a year ago, Netbooks were taking to Linux very easily. The trend has moved to XP for now, but the trend will reverse again now with Chrome OS and higher Windows 7 pricing.
First, this pricing influences ALL PCs, not just netbooks.
How does that work when netbooks get a different licence fee than other types of computers? They just axe the netbook discount and the OS will be priced at the same rate as any other kind of computer.
Quote:
Second, about a year ago, Netbooks were taking to Linux very easily. The trend has moved to XP for now, but the trend will reverse again now with Chrome OS and higher Windows 7 pricing.
Google hasn't shown that they can make desktop software consumers will use at a significant rate. They're really server-side people. They haven't taken much to their web browser, and let's not pretend that Chome OS is anything but vaporware right now.
So then, half the *alleged* reason for buying a netbook (cheap) will be gone.
I'm beginning to understand Apple's reasoning more and more in this area. They foresaw all of this long ago and have NOT caved in to offer cheap netbooks. They'll instead (if the tablet rumours are true) expand the mobile/miniaturized computing sector and sell on an enhanced portable experience.
How does that work when netbooks get a different licence fee than other types of computers? They just axe the netbook discount and the OS will be priced at the same rate as any other kind of computer..
Since Vista wouldn't run well on netbooks, MS agreed to provide the faster WinXP for certain netbooks, limited by screen size, quantity of RAM, processor speed, etc. Since Linux was being installed (for free) on such netbooks at the time, MS offered to provide XP to the OEMs for "nearly free" so that Linux wouldn't gain a stronghold in the netbook market. It worked.
Now, Windows 7 will (supposedly) run better on netbooks and MS no longer feels the need to provide an OS for "free." From what I've read, Win 7 is still much more sluggish than XP on a netbook so it'll be interesting to see how well it's received.
Will the OEMs start offering netbooks with Linux more frequently, or even Android or Chrome? Only time will tell. I think most people are afraid to experiment and would gladly pay an extra $50 to have their netbook come with Windows. And some even go for a MacBook to get Mac OS, even though Apple won't sell a mini notebook.
(Harder even than Jack in the Box recovering from a food poisoning event.)
Are you stalking me? Just yesterday I was talking about that one; how Jack in the Box is the only restaurant I have heard of to kill people in multiple events spanning several years to still be in business.
So are we seeing the end of the low-cost netbook? Or is this Google's shot?
Not the end so much as netbooks becoming a "commodity" with commodity pricing..... cheap. Remember calculators, digital watches, AM radios, land line phones, snap shot cameras, digital memo recorders, etc., etc.
There will always be somebody willing to churn cheap netbooks out and there will be plenty of people to buy them. It's just that there is no "profit" anymore!
It's a big mistake a lot of poorly managed companies make....concentrating solely on Market Share as opposed to healthy margins. They say things like, "we're losing money on every item we make....no problem lower the price and we will make it up on 'volume,' duh!
I am a big Apple fan. But I own a lot of Microsoft stock. Ballmer is driving me crazy. He should not be in charge of Microsoft. His vision seems to consist of dismissing real competitive threats when they appear, and then blindly and belatedly chasing the markets he scoffed at months before.
This is costing me a fortune.
Microsoft stock has gone nowhere since the stock crash of 2000. You should have sold that Microsoft stock and purchased Apple years ago, your money would have multiplied many times over by now.
Microsoft has done very little right in the last five years. You took a pretty big chance in investing in it if it was done in that period.
With that said, I just took advantage of the Cash for Clunkers program and got a new Mercury Mariner. I was very impressed with Microsoft's Sync. Hands free iPod and phone use is very nicely implemented in Ford vehicles. Apple should have took the initiative there. If Microsoft could start looking at innovating in new markets as opposed to try copying other's success it might do something.
The prospects of a premium priced Apple tablet computer may brighten at the hands of an unlikely ally, if Microsoft can carry out its stated goal of raising netbook prices using Windows 7.
The iPhone is a small computer. It actually competes in this market segment: Safari web browsing, e-mail, e-books, games, many apps, and it is a telephone and plays music as well. Apple is on the road to selling 25,000,000 this year, plus maybe 15,000,000 iTouches as well. This gives it a good market share of small form computers right out of the box.
If the iTablet appears at the very least it will be a big iTouch, and probably will include iWorks as well. Without question it will be more capable than any net book or cheap MS based OS entry. At a price point of $600 to $800 it will sell like hot cakes. Who knows where this will go?
What is the price of crap? Becase crap, even at low price, crap is!
Netbooks aren't really all that cheap when you consider what you get. I just bought my daughter a 15.6" Toshiba laptop with 2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo, DVD burner, 2 GB, 240 GB and discrete graphics for $379. Why in the world would I want to pay $300 for a crappy 10% netbook with atom processor and no optical drive?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Netbooks are about as far from $1k range as you can get. Increase the price on a $300 netbook by $50, and it's still hardly close to $1k. MS cut the licensing cost on netbooks as a special price class alone, any price adjustment in the netbook class won't make the regular notebooks any more expensive. I think there were restrictions on screen size, CPU speed and RAM to qualify for a netbook license.
I agree that netbooks are not on Apple's radar screen. While it's possible that someone might choose a netbook over a MacBook and then change their mind when the netbooks go up by $50, it's not likely.
The real issue is that Microsoft has been out pushing the concept that price is everything - that someone would be foolish to buy a Mac because it's more expensive than a Windows computer. Buy spreading this "you only need to look at the price tag to choose your computer" concept, they are making themselves vulnerable on the low end. Currently, a Linux netbook isn't much less expensive than a Windows netbook. Add $50 to the Windows netbook, and the Linux system may look lots more attractive - since you're only selling price. When ChromeOS hits the market with Google's marketing clout behind it, that difference becomes even more important.
The 'price is everything' strategy could easily backfire when they raise Windows prices for netbooks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tundraboy
First they roll out the laptop hunter ads to brand themselves the Walmart of OSes. Now after publicly laying claim to the cheap end of the market they want to move their brand upmarket. In the history of brand management, that is the hardest thing to do. (Harder even than Jack in the Box recovering from a food poisoning event.) VW tried to do it with the $70K Phaeton. That flopped. Walmart tried to do it after suffering from Target envy a few years back. That flopped. Somebody name me a success story.
Well, my company did it in the industrial products category, but it's not well known, so there's no point in naming it. It can be done, but it's very, very hard. More importantly, it requires that you have a powerful, unique selling feature that allows you to command a premium price in some niche. Microsoft has completely abandoned the concept that the OS is worth paying for because they no longer have any unique selling features, so it will be hard for them to go upscale.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quadra 610
Yes!
I still don't understand what MS wants to do here. They couldn't sell them when they were cheaper, so now charging MORE will move product?
Sorry, but I must be misunderstanding something here.
No, you're just witnessing Microsoft's inability to understand marketing and branding. They are completely clueless about how you create a value proposition and are therefore left with lame copies of Apple's humorous ads or the silly "you should buy whatever is cheapest" Laptop Hunter ads.
I particularly love Ballmer's 'rounding error' comments. Sorry, but Apple's share gains are not a rounding error - they're quite real and have earned Apple many billions of dollars - while reduing Microsoft's revenues by at least hundreds of millions of dollars. Just another example of Ballmer sticking his foot into his mouth when he has nothing intelligent to say.
Comments
Please stop with the glorified titles Prince. MS are not the devil, you know.
Microsoft are EVIL>, don't you know??
http://www.ecis.eu/documents/Finalve...hoicepaper.pdf
http://rixstep.com/2/20090326,00.shtml
Ballmer called Apple as a ?fine company? doing well with a low-volume, high-price strategy, but claimed Microsoft hasn't lost market share to Apple over the past year, and that any changes in reported share numbers are just ?a rounding error.? Share gains by Apple "cost us nothing," Ballmer said. "Hopefully, we?ll take share back from Apple. But they still sell only 10 million PCs a year, so it?s a limited opportunity."
Balmer is such a condescending prick and MS could only gain by giving him the boot.
As a strategist and a public speaker, he's simply seen as an embarrassment to the company but with zillions in stocks, they can't figure out how to get rid of him.
I am a big Apple fan. But I own a lot of Microsoft stock. Ballmer is driving me crazy. He should not be in charge of Microsoft. His vision seems to consist of dismissing real competitive threats when they appear, and then blindly and belatedly chasing the markets he scoffed at months before.
This is costing me a fortune.
sell that stock dude
MS/PC manufacturers (Dell, HP, etc.) find themselves in a very common business situation-diminishing profit margins where they all end up chasing the bottom.
Yes, that seems to be the situation, alright.
So are we seeing the end of the low-cost netbook? Or is this Google's shot?
Besides what Quadra 620 said, MS doesn?t make the same from different priced OSes. They make a lot more on a higher version of Windows than they do a lesser version.
I understand that.
Those cheap PCs that Windows and the majority PC HW vendors dominate usually come with a lower-tier version of Windows.
Are you sure about that?
I don't live in the US so I cannot be certain but go take a look at the Best Buy web site. There are about 90 PC laptops for sale. Almost all of them come loaded with Vista Home Premium. Prices range from about $400 -$2000.
That's my point really. Even though PC hardware prices are dropping people are still paying (in general) for the same Windows version.
Even though, in a poor economy, people are choosing even cheaper PC models (and Microsoft seems to be actively encouraging that) they are still getting the same Windows version.
I don't know, but is it even possible to get an OS downgrade when you buy from a bricks and mortar store?
The only area where Microsoft is taking a hit is the fast growing Netbook market... and that is what this thread was all about.
I am a big Apple fan. But I own a lot of Microsoft stock. Ballmer is driving me crazy. He should not be in charge of Microsoft. His vision seems to consist of dismissing real competitive threats when they appear, and then blindly and belatedly chasing the markets he scoffed at months before.
This is costing me a fortune.
Great time to sell! M$ has nowhere to go but down ...
Please stop with the glorified titles Prince. MS are not the devil, you know.
Here in the States some of us think of Tom Waits as our poet laureate and he says:
[CENTER]Boney's high on China White
Shorty found a p-p-punk
Don't you know there ain't no Devil
There's just God when he's drunk[/CENTER]
So of course Microsoft aren't the Devil, cause there is no Devil! But M$ are indeed the embodiment of corporate evil in the tech sector, so cut Prince some slack ... he's got every right to hate them as much as he wants!
Netbooks are about as far from $1k range as you can get. Increase the price on a $300 netbook by $50, and it's still hardly close to $1k. MS cut the licensing cost on netbooks as a special price class alone, any price adjustment in the netbook class won't make the regular notebooks any more expensive. I think there were restrictions on screen size, CPU speed and RAM to qualify for a netbook license.
I haven't seen Linux on anything close to 1 out of 10 netbooks for sale at retail. There were more in the earlier days, but they dried up pretty quickly.
First, this pricing influences ALL PCs, not just netbooks.
Second, about a year ago, Netbooks were taking to Linux very easily. The trend has moved to XP for now, but the trend will reverse again now with Chrome OS and higher Windows 7 pricing.
First, this pricing influences ALL PCs, not just netbooks.
How does that work when netbooks get a different licence fee than other types of computers? They just axe the netbook discount and the OS will be priced at the same rate as any other kind of computer.
Second, about a year ago, Netbooks were taking to Linux very easily. The trend has moved to XP for now, but the trend will reverse again now with Chrome OS and higher Windows 7 pricing.
Google hasn't shown that they can make desktop software consumers will use at a significant rate. They're really server-side people. They haven't taken much to their web browser, and let's not pretend that Chome OS is anything but vaporware right now.
Microsoft plans to use Windows 7 to raise netbook prices
Microsoft tax, anyone ?
I'm suprised nobody mentionned this...
Microsoft tax, anyone ?
I'm suprised nobody mentionned this...
So then, half the *alleged* reason for buying a netbook (cheap) will be gone.
I'm beginning to understand Apple's reasoning more and more in this area. They foresaw all of this long ago and have NOT caved in to offer cheap netbooks. They'll instead (if the tablet rumours are true) expand the mobile/miniaturized computing sector and sell on an enhanced portable experience.
How does that work when netbooks get a different licence fee than other types of computers? They just axe the netbook discount and the OS will be priced at the same rate as any other kind of computer..
Since Vista wouldn't run well on netbooks, MS agreed to provide the faster WinXP for certain netbooks, limited by screen size, quantity of RAM, processor speed, etc. Since Linux was being installed (for free) on such netbooks at the time, MS offered to provide XP to the OEMs for "nearly free" so that Linux wouldn't gain a stronghold in the netbook market. It worked.
Now, Windows 7 will (supposedly) run better on netbooks and MS no longer feels the need to provide an OS for "free." From what I've read, Win 7 is still much more sluggish than XP on a netbook so it'll be interesting to see how well it's received.
Will the OEMs start offering netbooks with Linux more frequently, or even Android or Chrome? Only time will tell. I think most people are afraid to experiment and would gladly pay an extra $50 to have their netbook come with Windows. And some even go for a MacBook to get Mac OS, even though Apple won't sell a mini notebook.
So then, half the *alleged* reason for buying a netbook (cheap) will be gone.
Keep in mind, this decision by MS will only increase the price by about $50. It's not like the price of netbooks is going to double overnight.
(Harder even than Jack in the Box recovering from a food poisoning event.)
Are you stalking me? Just yesterday I was talking about that one; how Jack in the Box is the only restaurant I have heard of to kill people in multiple events spanning several years to still be in business.
There's hope yet for Microsoft!
Why all defensive? Get real. We all know Prince has Apple v MS wrestling matches in his sleep every night
I used to think this was Apple Insider. These days it seems like Microsoft Insider.
They were your words, not mine. If you can't explain them and instead have to change the subject, I don't think it's me who needs to get real.
Yes, that seems to be the situation, alright.
So are we seeing the end of the low-cost netbook? Or is this Google's shot?
Not the end so much as netbooks becoming a "commodity" with commodity pricing..... cheap. Remember calculators, digital watches, AM radios, land line phones, snap shot cameras, digital memo recorders, etc., etc.
There will always be somebody willing to churn cheap netbooks out and there will be plenty of people to buy them. It's just that there is no "profit" anymore!
It's a big mistake a lot of poorly managed companies make....concentrating solely on Market Share as opposed to healthy margins. They say things like, "we're losing money on every item we make....no problem lower the price and we will make it up on 'volume,' duh!
I am a big Apple fan. But I own a lot of Microsoft stock. Ballmer is driving me crazy. He should not be in charge of Microsoft. His vision seems to consist of dismissing real competitive threats when they appear, and then blindly and belatedly chasing the markets he scoffed at months before.
This is costing me a fortune.
Microsoft stock has gone nowhere since the stock crash of 2000. You should have sold that Microsoft stock and purchased Apple years ago, your money would have multiplied many times over by now.
With that said, I just took advantage of the Cash for Clunkers program and got a new Mercury Mariner. I was very impressed with Microsoft's Sync. Hands free iPod and phone use is very nicely implemented in Ford vehicles. Apple should have took the initiative there. If Microsoft could start looking at innovating in new markets as opposed to try copying other's success it might do something.
This is costing me a fortune.
The prospects of a premium priced Apple tablet computer may brighten at the hands of an unlikely ally, if Microsoft can carry out its stated goal of raising netbook prices using Windows 7.
The iPhone is a small computer. It actually competes in this market segment: Safari web browsing, e-mail, e-books, games, many apps, and it is a telephone and plays music as well. Apple is on the road to selling 25,000,000 this year, plus maybe 15,000,000 iTouches as well. This gives it a good market share of small form computers right out of the box.
If the iTablet appears at the very least it will be a big iTouch, and probably will include iWorks as well. Without question it will be more capable than any net book or cheap MS based OS entry. At a price point of $600 to $800 it will sell like hot cakes. Who knows where this will go?
What is the price of crap? Becase crap, even at low price, crap is!
Netbooks aren't really all that cheap when you consider what you get. I just bought my daughter a 15.6" Toshiba laptop with 2.16 GHz Core 2 Duo, DVD burner, 2 GB, 240 GB and discrete graphics for $379. Why in the world would I want to pay $300 for a crappy 10% netbook with atom processor and no optical drive?
Netbooks are about as far from $1k range as you can get. Increase the price on a $300 netbook by $50, and it's still hardly close to $1k. MS cut the licensing cost on netbooks as a special price class alone, any price adjustment in the netbook class won't make the regular notebooks any more expensive. I think there were restrictions on screen size, CPU speed and RAM to qualify for a netbook license.
I agree that netbooks are not on Apple's radar screen. While it's possible that someone might choose a netbook over a MacBook and then change their mind when the netbooks go up by $50, it's not likely.
The real issue is that Microsoft has been out pushing the concept that price is everything - that someone would be foolish to buy a Mac because it's more expensive than a Windows computer. Buy spreading this "you only need to look at the price tag to choose your computer" concept, they are making themselves vulnerable on the low end. Currently, a Linux netbook isn't much less expensive than a Windows netbook. Add $50 to the Windows netbook, and the Linux system may look lots more attractive - since you're only selling price. When ChromeOS hits the market with Google's marketing clout behind it, that difference becomes even more important.
The 'price is everything' strategy could easily backfire when they raise Windows prices for netbooks.
First they roll out the laptop hunter ads to brand themselves the Walmart of OSes. Now after publicly laying claim to the cheap end of the market they want to move their brand upmarket. In the history of brand management, that is the hardest thing to do. (Harder even than Jack in the Box recovering from a food poisoning event.) VW tried to do it with the $70K Phaeton. That flopped. Walmart tried to do it after suffering from Target envy a few years back. That flopped. Somebody name me a success story.
Well, my company did it in the industrial products category, but it's not well known, so there's no point in naming it. It can be done, but it's very, very hard. More importantly, it requires that you have a powerful, unique selling feature that allows you to command a premium price in some niche. Microsoft has completely abandoned the concept that the OS is worth paying for because they no longer have any unique selling features, so it will be hard for them to go upscale.
Yes!
I still don't understand what MS wants to do here. They couldn't sell them when they were cheaper, so now charging MORE will move product?
Sorry, but I must be misunderstanding something here.
No, you're just witnessing Microsoft's inability to understand marketing and branding. They are completely clueless about how you create a value proposition and are therefore left with lame copies of Apple's humorous ads or the silly "you should buy whatever is cheapest" Laptop Hunter ads.
I particularly love Ballmer's 'rounding error' comments. Sorry, but Apple's share gains are not a rounding error - they're quite real and have earned Apple many billions of dollars - while reduing Microsoft's revenues by at least hundreds of millions of dollars. Just another example of Ballmer sticking his foot into his mouth when he has nothing intelligent to say.