[quote] But not that's not in OS X out of choice.<hr></blockquote>No, I believe it has something to do with when the UIServer loads. Its not the same process as Nextstep.
Ah, good point re: getting properties or info about files/folders in the open/save dialog. Add that to my post above.
My previous comment got me thinking a bit about having some way to find stuff based on how long ago you used it. It might be nice to have some function to find something you worked on six months ago along with whatver else you worked on in that time frame, sort of Very Old Items as opposed to Recent Items. Add to that some ability for the Finder to know what was burned when (this might be cumbersome), and it could tell you that it was backed up on Jan 1, 2001 with x, y, and z to a CD-R named "Old Stuff."
Of course, I'm getting away from Windows functionality too at this point so I'll save it for the 10.3 thread.
<strong>Actually, while I'm not a fan of Finder-like file management in Open/Save dialogs, I do like the ability to save over documents by clicking their name in the save dialog. I know it's destructive and dangerous, so maybe there's a better way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Glory be. It's nice to see I'm not a lone voice crying in the woods about this.
What do you think about a drag and drop? (e.g. Dragging a file name from the dialog into the save field.) It would make it much less dangerous, and I think useful and satisfying.
[quote]<strong>Also, adding a "Find" function to open/save dialogs is a good idea too. I know that Find item in that context menu only finds stuff in a separate window, but it would be very nice functionality to be able to find a folder or file within the dialog. It obviously helps when looking for a certain file to open, and it is a nice option when saving files too, instead of jumping all over the HD in pursuit of some place you put stuff six months ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll be crestfallen if Apple doesn't add this to 10.3.
I'm even hoping for a revamp of the Open/Save dialog (modeless window only), with a customizable toolbar, including a search field and easy to see (and click) icons instead of that faintly annoying pulldown menu. Save as a sheet, otoh, probably needs to stay simple. I don't know. Perhaps this is inconsistent.
<strong>My previous comment got me thinking a bit about having some way to find stuff based on how long ago you used it. It might be nice to have some function to find something you worked on six months ago along with whatver else you worked on in that time frame, sort of Very Old Items as opposed to Recent Items. Add to that some ability for the Finder to know what was burned when (this might be cumbersome), and it could tell you that it was backed up on Jan 1, 2001 with x, y, and z to a CD-R named "Old Stuff."</strong><hr></blockquote>
Love this idea. There's definitely degrees of "recent", and Open/Save would be much improved by addressing that. Just like Safari so smartly understands the degrees of usage in bookmarking (most used / used often / used occasionally, but nice to have an archive) and implements its UI accordingly.
<strong>I'm even hoping for a revamp of the Open/Save dialog (modeless window only), with a customizable toolbar, including a search field and easy to see (and click) icons instead of that faintly annoying pulldown menu.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't have any problems with the pull-down menu per se, but open/save dialogs are more or less just a hook into the Finder. Sort of like how iPhoto can dial up iTunes songs in a data browser. So if the Open dialog acted more like a Finder window, I think that could be considered consistent. And, yes, they should be modeless.
...and what computer are you using, 10.2.3 is almost as fast as 9 on a 733MHz G4, so i would imagine on a newmachine it is blazing</strong><hr></blockquote>
how come so many people seem ecstatic that their brand new shiny macs with their next gen OS manages to run almost as fast as 9? are we now so easily satisfied? no wonder apple seem in no hurry to sort out the PMac mess
Although this thread is about Windows features I thought I throw in a couple of X11/Unix features.
1) How about allowing Unix type users to get rid of the "system" menu at the top of the screen, or at a minimum allow the application's menu to be attached to the main window of the application. I have 21" monitor and I have to surf the mouse back and forth between windows and the system menu and it is a pain in the wrist.
The Mac style menu was great when the Mac had a 9" screen and did cooperative multitasking. This is no longer the case, deep six the Apple style menu or give us Unix guys with large screen real-estate the option to get rid of it.
2) Window activation via mouse over. This feature of the X11 window managers is a great usability feature. I would be able to refer to a large window and type in a window that is barely exposed. Those folks that work with text need this.
All I'm saying PLEASE give me the option to make these things happen. (Just mouse over window activation should be a no brainer, since the current interface recognizes the mouse when you move over the close button on a window that is on the bottom of the stack!)
Those of us from the Unix world have to limp along with the rigid interface and it is wearing thin.
Otherwise the rest is fine, although I'd like to get comprehensive Apple documentation on Netinfo and other Unix integration components. The existing docs are good for a general feel for some of the things, but I'd be hard pressed if I had to start up the rshd daemon by manipulating the entries in Netinfo (yes I have every Netinfo document I could find on the web) or try to integrate the Mac into a production Unix network.
<strong>Although this thread is about Windows features I thought I throw in a couple of X11/Unix features.
1) How about allowing Unix type users to get rid of the "system" menu at the top of the screen, or at a minimum allow the application's menu to be attached to the main window of the application. I have 21" monitor and I have to surf the mouse back and forth between windows and the system menu and it is a pain in the wrist.
The Mac style menu was great when the Mac had a 9" screen and did cooperative multitasking. This is no longer the case, deep six the Apple style menu or give us Unix guys with large screen real-estate the option to get rid of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Never gonna happen. Fitts' Law, and all that. Besides, you call yourself a Unix head, and you're not using the keyboard?
[quote]<strong>2) Window activation via mouse over. This feature of the X11 window managers is a great usability feature. I would be able to refer to a large window and type in a window that is barely exposed. Those folks that work with text need this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pressing Cmd before clicking the mouse button sends the click through to the window without bringing it forward. Works for most everything *except* typing in text. I used to be a die-hard advocate of this feature, now I don't miss it. Took a while to learn the new ropes though. Less immediately obvious but more definitely intuitive features start to intrude on your workflow as time goes on. (The proxy icon at the top of a document or Finder window is *PRICELESS*.)
[quote]<strong>All I'm saying PLEASE give me the option to make these things happen. (Just mouse over window activation should be a no brainer, since the current interface recognizes the mouse when you move over the close button on a window that is on the bottom of the stack!)
Those of us from the Unix world have to limp along with the rigid interface and it is wearing thin. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I hear ya, but to be honest us X11'ers can adapt pretty quickly. (C'mon, we *have* to, when every app has its own idea of the Right Way(tm). ) You soon come to VASTLY appreciate the fact that a little rigidity in the UI gives back something much more valuable: general consistency. I used to tweak my twm system until I was blue in the face, and have a ball doing it... but it never gave me the level of consistent usability that Aqua does. *shrug*
[quote]<strong>Otherwise the rest is fine, </strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait, wait, WAIT!!!
No calling for a three-button mouse?!?!?
What kind of Unix geek ARE you???
[quote]<strong>although I'd like to get comprehensive Apple documentation on Netinfo and other Unix integration components. The existing docs are good for a general feel for some of the things, but I'd be hard pressed if I had to start up the rshd daemon by manipulating the entries in Netinfo (yes I have every Netinfo document I could find on the web) or try to integrate the Mac into a production Unix network.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hear, hear! It's so much better now than it was even a year ago though, that it isn't funny. (You should have been around in the Rhapsody beta testing days... whoo boy.)
The ability to manipulate files through a dialog is nice, but like many things on Windows it seems to have been grudgingly half-implemented, and then tacked on to over the years.
What OS X should do is what Mac OS was originally designed to do. File dialogs were created because Mac OS was singletasking originally, so Finder couldn't run concurrently with an app. Now, of course, Finder can. So I for one would like to see open/save dialogs ditched altogether, and Finder promoted to the full-on file management tool that it is. Then you wouldn't have to peer into large directories through a tiny little window unless you wanted to for some reason.
The concurrent-user ability of XP is the only thing I can think of that I'd prefer from Windows. And, as with other things, I think Apple can do it better. Unfortunately, they'll have to do some real work on the window server to enable that.
I can understand ditching the open dialog, but how would you be able to ditch the save dialog? It's one thing if your work is saved as you go, but if you change your mind, you're kind of screwed, aren't you?
Copland actually toyed with this idea... you'd start a document, and it was auto-saved to what was essentially a FileMe folder. You'd then move the file at some point using the Finder.
Personally, I like the action of save site selection being tied more closely to when I am creating the document. I'm more likely to know what I intend, what I'm thinking, etc. If I'm unsure, I toss it in Documents until I can figure out where I want it.
- 1) Resize window from ANYWHERE! Apple practically invented the GUI, and I have to resize my windows from one TINY corner!! No friggin way, I can NOT believe this has not been mentioned, and we don't have it ALREADY! Please chime-in and add your support, so SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!!! (yes that pissed off!)
- 2) Active Desktop (but better) - I want my desktop image to be my "homepage" or my "email client" or my "default finder window", or "ALL OF THEM" at the same time with a powerful interface to customize it and resize (of course) the components within it! I truley believe it is time to utilize this space with functionality, not just an image, what a waste! Imagine having all the Apple apps integrated into the actual desktop image iCal, iChat, Safari, iSync, Mail, AddressBook, iTunes! - That would be - Innovation!
- 3) Safari / iApp Integration - I know it is a beta, but would be great for Safari to be able to read iApp documents and the file types exported from iApps. Windows does this well, PowerPoint, Excel, Word, etc can all be read by IE. For example - Imagine if Safari could control iTunes? You could control all aspects of of iTunes from within the interface of Safari, ONE APP open. I would imagine this would similar to the bookmark button, takes over the entire Safari interface to display iTunes, or iTunes equavilent. Can you Imagine more of this type of Integration, I can Safari opens up a lot of integration possabilities - Think AOL, Think MSN, next gen web experience
- 4) Internet Access (see point 3) - I know people are questioning Apple for their diversification, too many businesses. However, follow the logic. To answer the question, "What Windows features would you like in OSX?", needs to be expanded to "What Microsoft features would you like to see in Apple?" I would Apple to expand to at least one more business - Internet Access. They are almost their, actually. They need to buy Earthlink at their deflated stock price and get on it. Imagine what Apple could do if they owned the entire Internet/Computer/Creation Process....? My god the possibilities are endless, and could if done effectibely and in innovative ways... actually EXPAND AND GAIN MARKETSHARE! Thoughts?
- 5) And yes, better network usability
That's about it for now I guess - Please feel free to give your opinion - the good, the bad, and the ugly
I understand the consistency issue, but I think it should be consistent with the rest of the world, that's all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If that were the issue, we'd all be running Windows, now wouldn't we?
The menu at the top really does make much more sense to most people, and it *is* demonstrably easier to target with the cursor. Duplicating the same menu bar on N windows of an app is just wasting N x menuHeight pixels on the screen. IMHO, of course. In any case, it's a dead horse we're beating. This is one UI element that just plain won't be changing.
- 1) Resize window from ANYWHERE! Apple practically invented the GUI, and I have to resize my windows from one TINY corner!! No friggin way, I can NOT believe this has not been mentioned, and we don't have it ALREADY!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Havent thought about that one before.. Nice thinking!
I think the save/open dialogs needs more work.. They practually suck right now...
And speed..
And that fricking 'connect too...' dialog.. > Its useless, and bugridden like HELL!
1) Dali got to it before I could -- resizing windows from any edge or corner! I especially like that by grabbing a window by an edge rather than a corner that you can ensure that you only change the window's size in one dimension.
2) Being able to save state when switching from one user to another... Is this what the rest of you mean by multi-user sessions?
3) Interactive menus, like the Start menu or IE's Favorites, where you can click, drag, delete, sort, get info, etc., on items in the menu.
I find it very convenient, for instance, if I click on Favorites to go to one bookmark, and notice an old bookmark that I'd like to get rid of, I can do it right then and there by interacting with the menu itself rather than aborting the menu and going into a separate window/dialog to edit my bookmarks.
4) OS X's file Open/Save dialogs certainly need improvement. I'm not sure how much of from Windows I'd borrow from here, but like others have mentioned, being able to get file info and edit and copy file names is very useful. Also being able to change sort order and view style is nice... right from a file dialog being able to sort by date, for instance.
5) Ability to point at a file and see a tooltip pop up with basic file info.
6) For geeks only: Windows-like shortcuts that can specify command-line commands, along with an optional home directory. This would be a useful way to easily turn commonly used command-line tasks into double-clickable icons.
Comments
My previous comment got me thinking a bit about having some way to find stuff based on how long ago you used it. It might be nice to have some function to find something you worked on six months ago along with whatver else you worked on in that time frame, sort of Very Old Items as opposed to Recent Items. Add to that some ability for the Finder to know what was burned when (this might be cumbersome), and it could tell you that it was backed up on Jan 1, 2001 with x, y, and z to a CD-R named "Old Stuff."
Of course, I'm getting away from Windows functionality too at this point so I'll save it for the 10.3 thread.
<strong>Actually, while I'm not a fan of Finder-like file management in Open/Save dialogs, I do like the ability to save over documents by clicking their name in the save dialog. I know it's destructive and dangerous, so maybe there's a better way.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Glory be. It's nice to see I'm not a lone voice crying in the woods about this.
What do you think about a drag and drop? (e.g. Dragging a file name from the dialog into the save field.) It would make it much less dangerous, and I think useful and satisfying.
[quote]<strong>Also, adding a "Find" function to open/save dialogs is a good idea too. I know that Find item in that context menu only finds stuff in a separate window, but it would be very nice functionality to be able to find a folder or file within the dialog. It obviously helps when looking for a certain file to open, and it is a nice option when saving files too, instead of jumping all over the HD in pursuit of some place you put stuff six months ago.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I'll be crestfallen if Apple doesn't add this to 10.3.
I'm even hoping for a revamp of the Open/Save dialog (modeless window only), with a customizable toolbar, including a search field and easy to see (and click) icons instead of that faintly annoying pulldown menu. Save as a sheet, otoh, probably needs to stay simple. I don't know. Perhaps this is inconsistent.
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>My previous comment got me thinking a bit about having some way to find stuff based on how long ago you used it. It might be nice to have some function to find something you worked on six months ago along with whatver else you worked on in that time frame, sort of Very Old Items as opposed to Recent Items. Add to that some ability for the Finder to know what was burned when (this might be cumbersome), and it could tell you that it was backed up on Jan 1, 2001 with x, y, and z to a CD-R named "Old Stuff."</strong><hr></blockquote>
Love this idea. There's definitely degrees of "recent", and Open/Save would be much improved by addressing that. Just like Safari so smartly understands the degrees of usage in bookmarking (most used / used often / used occasionally, but nice to have an archive) and implements its UI accordingly.
bob <img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: bspears ]</p>
<strong>I'm even hoping for a revamp of the Open/Save dialog (modeless window only), with a customizable toolbar, including a search field and easy to see (and click) icons instead of that faintly annoying pulldown menu.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't have any problems with the pull-down menu per se, but open/save dialogs are more or less just a hook into the Finder. Sort of like how iPhoto can dial up iTunes songs in a data browser. So if the Open dialog acted more like a Finder window, I think that could be considered consistent. And, yes, they should be modeless.
<strong>
OS X isn't stable enough for you?!
...and what computer are you using, 10.2.3 is almost as fast as 9 on a 733MHz G4, so i would imagine on a newmachine it is blazing</strong><hr></blockquote>
how come so many people seem ecstatic that their brand new shiny macs with their next gen OS manages to run almost as fast as 9? are we now so easily satisfied? no wonder apple seem in no hurry to sort out the PMac mess
I don't want those.
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: drumbug1 ]</p>
1) How about allowing Unix type users to get rid of the "system" menu at the top of the screen, or at a minimum allow the application's menu to be attached to the main window of the application. I have 21" monitor and I have to surf the mouse back and forth between windows and the system menu and it is a pain in the wrist.
The Mac style menu was great when the Mac had a 9" screen and did cooperative multitasking. This is no longer the case, deep six the Apple style menu or give us Unix guys with large screen real-estate the option to get rid of it.
2) Window activation via mouse over. This feature of the X11 window managers is a great usability feature. I would be able to refer to a large window and type in a window that is barely exposed. Those folks that work with text need this.
All I'm saying PLEASE give me the option to make these things happen. (Just mouse over window activation should be a no brainer, since the current interface recognizes the mouse when you move over the close button on a window that is on the bottom of the stack!)
Those of us from the Unix world have to limp along with the rigid interface and it is wearing thin.
Otherwise the rest is fine, although I'd like to get comprehensive Apple documentation on Netinfo and other Unix integration components. The existing docs are good for a general feel for some of the things, but I'd be hard pressed if I had to start up the rshd daemon by manipulating the entries in Netinfo (yes I have every Netinfo document I could find on the web) or try to integrate the Mac into a production Unix network.
<strong>Although this thread is about Windows features I thought I throw in a couple of X11/Unix features.
1) How about allowing Unix type users to get rid of the "system" menu at the top of the screen, or at a minimum allow the application's menu to be attached to the main window of the application. I have 21" monitor and I have to surf the mouse back and forth between windows and the system menu and it is a pain in the wrist.
The Mac style menu was great when the Mac had a 9" screen and did cooperative multitasking. This is no longer the case, deep six the Apple style menu or give us Unix guys with large screen real-estate the option to get rid of it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Never gonna happen. Fitts' Law, and all that. Besides, you call yourself a Unix head, and you're not using the keyboard?
[quote]<strong>2) Window activation via mouse over. This feature of the X11 window managers is a great usability feature. I would be able to refer to a large window and type in a window that is barely exposed. Those folks that work with text need this.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Pressing Cmd before clicking the mouse button sends the click through to the window without bringing it forward. Works for most everything *except* typing in text. I used to be a die-hard advocate of this feature, now I don't miss it. Took a while to learn the new ropes though. Less immediately obvious but more definitely intuitive features start to intrude on your workflow as time goes on. (The proxy icon at the top of a document or Finder window is *PRICELESS*.)
[quote]<strong>All I'm saying PLEASE give me the option to make these things happen. (Just mouse over window activation should be a no brainer, since the current interface recognizes the mouse when you move over the close button on a window that is on the bottom of the stack!)
Those of us from the Unix world have to limp along with the rigid interface and it is wearing thin.
I hear ya, but to be honest us X11'ers can adapt pretty quickly. (C'mon, we *have* to, when every app has its own idea of the Right Way(tm). ) You soon come to VASTLY appreciate the fact that a little rigidity in the UI gives back something much more valuable: general consistency. I used to tweak my twm system until I was blue in the face, and have a ball doing it... but it never gave me the level of consistent usability that Aqua does. *shrug*
[quote]<strong>Otherwise the rest is fine, </strong><hr></blockquote>
Wait, wait, WAIT!!!
No calling for a three-button mouse?!?!?
What kind of Unix geek ARE you???
[quote]<strong>although I'd like to get comprehensive Apple documentation on Netinfo and other Unix integration components. The existing docs are good for a general feel for some of the things, but I'd be hard pressed if I had to start up the rshd daemon by manipulating the entries in Netinfo (yes I have every Netinfo document I could find on the web) or try to integrate the Mac into a production Unix network.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hear, hear! It's so much better now than it was even a year ago though, that it isn't funny. (You should have been around in the Rhapsody beta testing days... whoo boy.)
2.) Faster boot
3.) Speed
4.) Multi-sessions would be great too..
5.) Speed
6.) Faster boot
7.) Cheaper hardware...
8.) Oh, and did I also forget to mention speed?
9.) A 'connect too...' dialog that normal people can actually use..
What OS X should do is what Mac OS was originally designed to do. File dialogs were created because Mac OS was singletasking originally, so Finder couldn't run concurrently with an app. Now, of course, Finder can. So I for one would like to see open/save dialogs ditched altogether, and Finder promoted to the full-on file management tool that it is. Then you wouldn't have to peer into large directories through a tiny little window unless you wanted to for some reason.
The concurrent-user ability of XP is the only thing I can think of that I'd prefer from Windows. And, as with other things, I think Apple can do it better. Unfortunately, they'll have to do some real work on the window server to enable that.
Personally, I like the action of save site selection being tied more closely to when I am creating the document. I'm more likely to know what I intend, what I'm thinking, etc. If I'm unsure, I toss it in Documents until I can figure out where I want it.
<strong>
Wait, wait, WAIT!!!
No calling for a three-button mouse?!?!?
What kind of Unix geek ARE you???
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I have a three button mouse!
I understand the consistency issue, but I think it should be consistent with the rest of the world, that's all.
- 1) Resize window from ANYWHERE! Apple practically invented the GUI, and I have to resize my windows from one TINY corner!! No friggin way, I can NOT believe this has not been mentioned, and we don't have it ALREADY! Please chime-in and add your support, so SOMEONE DOES SOMETHING ABOUT THIS!!!!! (yes that pissed off!)
- 2) Active Desktop (but better) - I want my desktop image to be my "homepage" or my "email client" or my "default finder window", or "ALL OF THEM" at the same time with a powerful interface to customize it and resize (of course) the components within it! I truley believe it is time to utilize this space with functionality, not just an image, what a waste! Imagine having all the Apple apps integrated into the actual desktop image iCal, iChat, Safari, iSync, Mail, AddressBook, iTunes! - That would be - Innovation!
- 3) Safari / iApp Integration - I know it is a beta, but would be great for Safari to be able to read iApp documents and the file types exported from iApps. Windows does this well, PowerPoint, Excel, Word, etc can all be read by IE. For example - Imagine if Safari could control iTunes? You could control all aspects of of iTunes from within the interface of Safari, ONE APP open. I would imagine this would similar to the bookmark button, takes over the entire Safari interface to display iTunes, or iTunes equavilent. Can you Imagine more of this type of Integration, I can
- 4) Internet Access (see point 3) - I know people are questioning Apple for their diversification, too many businesses. However, follow the logic. To answer the question, "What Windows features would you like in OSX?", needs to be expanded to "What Microsoft features would you like to see in Apple?" I would Apple to expand to at least one more business - Internet Access. They are almost their, actually. They need to buy Earthlink at their deflated stock price and get on it. Imagine what Apple could do if they owned the entire Internet/Computer/Creation Process....? My god the possibilities are endless, and could if done effectibely and in innovative ways... actually EXPAND AND GAIN MARKETSHARE! Thoughts?
- 5) And yes, better network usability
That's about it for now I guess - Please feel free to give your opinion - the good, the bad, and the ugly
tom
<strong>
I have a three button mouse!
I understand the consistency issue, but I think it should be consistent with the rest of the world, that's all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If that were the issue, we'd all be running Windows, now wouldn't we?
The menu at the top really does make much more sense to most people, and it *is* demonstrably easier to target with the cursor. Duplicating the same menu bar on N windows of an app is just wasting N x menuHeight pixels on the screen.
<strong>My Wish List - by priority....
- 1) Resize window from ANYWHERE! Apple practically invented the GUI, and I have to resize my windows from one TINY corner!! No friggin way, I can NOT believe this has not been mentioned, and we don't have it ALREADY!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Havent thought about that one before.. Nice thinking!
I think the save/open dialogs needs more work.. They practually suck right now...
And speed..
And that fricking 'connect too...' dialog.. >
2) Being able to save state when switching from one user to another... Is this what the rest of you mean by multi-user sessions?
3) Interactive menus, like the Start menu or IE's Favorites, where you can click, drag, delete, sort, get info, etc., on items in the menu.
I find it very convenient, for instance, if I click on Favorites to go to one bookmark, and notice an old bookmark that I'd like to get rid of, I can do it right then and there by interacting with the menu itself rather than aborting the menu and going into a separate window/dialog to edit my bookmarks.
4) OS X's file Open/Save dialogs certainly need improvement. I'm not sure how much of from Windows I'd borrow from here, but like others have mentioned, being able to get file info and edit and copy file names is very useful. Also being able to change sort order and view style is nice... right from a file dialog being able to sort by date, for instance.
5) Ability to point at a file and see a tooltip pop up with basic file info.
6) For geeks only: Windows-like shortcuts that can specify command-line commands, along with an optional home directory. This would be a useful way to easily turn commonly used command-line tasks into double-clickable icons.
[ 01-16-2003: Message edited by: shetline ]</p>