Except WinCE is by no means desktop Windows with stuff stripped out to make it fit. It's an embedded OS designed around extremely constrained power, memory and CPU conditions. It's not supposed to do any heavy lifting, it's supposed to be small. And it shares no code whatsoever with Windows.
OS X on the iPhone is indeed truncated to meet the needs of the hardware, with a touch optimized UI on top of that. But that's a very different thing than being limited in scope, and Apple can add and subtract the modular bits depending on form factor and the inevitable improvements in hardware. "Leaving off the parts you don't need" doesn't mean "lobotomizing the OS", it just means matching things like I/O and printer drivers and graphics and file systems to the hardware at hand.
This disparity is only going to get more pronounced as phone sized hardware gets every more powerful, and Apple take advantage of every bit of it with their scaleable OS. MS will be in the unenviable position of attempting to bolt on ever more functionality to an OS that was originally written to run on devices that by today's standards were little more than calculators.
This is pretty inacurate. Actually, the background for windows CE is pretty interesting. It is a real time OS and it was design for that purpose. (So you can guarantee that interupts are fired and that drivers not responding properly are sliced out by the kernel, each thread has a fixed amout of time to perform it's tasks, if it doesn't finish in time, the kernel moves on.. )..
Windows CE is modular in the way that it has.. modules.. Like any other semi decent OS on this planet.
I would say that MS actually had an advantage when designing Windows CE, they didn't have that much baggage they had to implement (it still supports quite a bit of the win32 apis though).
I have no CLUE what parts of the OS Apple took out to get it to work on a different platform, but it's normally a little more involved that what you are describing.
To claim that Windows CE is not up to par for a PMP or streaming video or playing games, it a blatant lie. The Zune HD does that now, and windows CE has been doing that for ages.
Read up on the APIs for windows CE. Check out the XNA framwork relased for the Zune HD. Then comeback and point out something it cannot do.
Well, MS focused on it being a good music player first. Which I think they did a good job at. But then you have people like you focusing on everything else than that, and that's why I tried to prove to you that market share doesn't mean that much.
I have no idea what that means.
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I'm not sure why you say the UI us unsuited for general computing tasks. It works for me and the few apps which is on it. Why don't you tape an apple logo on it and try it out for a few days and see what you think?
Of course it works for you and "the few apps", that's what it's designed for. What happens when you want to cut and paste a line from an email into a doc? Or download an image from a webpage and forward it in an MMS? Or use location services to locate a restaurant, look at the menu, check a map and get a reservation? Does the transition from the map to the reservation app zoom way out, spin around and then land you on a page with "ERSERV" at the top?
I know, MS will just make up some new UI stuff when they need it. Except that's not how operating systems, or at least good operating systems work. Everything needs a coherent, scaleable framework to coexist within. Giant zooming text is not that framework.
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And yes, the Zune hardware and OS can do a hell of a lot more than what you see when playing music. Just google up the hardware and download the SDK if you want and start building some apps.
/twospoons.
Well, the Zune is just the perfect blank slate, isn't it? The hardware "could" do more, the OS "could" do more, the UI "could" do more.
And dude? There isn't any publicly available SDK. But I bet it would be awesome if there were!
This is pretty inacurate. Actually, the background for windows CE is pretty interesting. It is a real time OS and it was design for that purpose. (So you can guarantee that interupts are fired and that drivers not responding properly are sliced out by the kernel, each thread has a fixed amout of time to perform it's tasks, if it doesn't finish in time, the kernel moves on.. )..
Windows CE is modular in the way that it has.. modules.. Like any other semi decent OS on this planet.
I would say that MS actually had an advantage when designing Windows CE, they didn't have that much baggage they had to implement (it still supports quite a bit of the win32 apis though).
I have no CLUE what parts of the OS Apple took out to get it to work on a different platform, but it's normally a little more involved that what you are describing.
If you're trying to make the case that WinCE is the equal to any of the mainstream desktop OSs out there, I'll just have to leave you to that. I mean, good grief.
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To claim that Windows CE is not up to par for a PMP or streaming video or playing games, it a blatant lie. The Zune HD does that now, and windows CE has been doing that for ages.
Good God amighty, are you just determined to derail the conversation with bizarre inversions of everything I say? I never said that WinCE isn't up to par for a PMP or streaming video, I said just the opposite: that that's what it's good for.
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Read up on the APIs for windows CE. Check out the XNA framwork relased for the Zune HD. Then comeback and point out something it cannot do.
/twospoons.
I don't have to, we have the actual shipping product at hand and we can see, clearly, what it doesn't do. A lot so speculative hand waving about what it might or could or should pretty soon maybe do is beside the point. The Zune is very clearly not designed as a general purpose device. That doesn't make its dick smaller, for fucks' sake, it's just a design and marketing decision MS made. They want the heavy lifting to be done by WinMo, which, as you know, is also based on WinCE.
But, again, if there's nothing that WinCE can't do, why isn't MS shipping WinCE laptops? Big battery wins, I would think, and certainly no fear of the kind of netbook unfriendly trouble they got in with Vista. So, where are the powerful large WinCE devices?
Of course it works for you and "the few apps", that's what it's designed for. What happens when you want to cut and paste a line from an email into a doc? Or download an image from a webpage and forward it in an MMS?
Funny that you point out the features which JUST came out on the iPhone. Like cut'n paste and MMS. Windows CE could cut'n paste when it came out.. 10 years ago? Seems like forever. MMS is a very old feature for most cell phones.
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Or use location services to locate a restaurant, look at the menu, check a map and get a reservation? Does the transition from the map to the reservation app zoom way out, spin around and then land you on a page with "ERSERV" at the top?
Hehe. Yep, the iPhone does a lot of great things. Never denied that.
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I know, MS will just make up some new UI stuff when they need it. Except that's not how operating systems, or at least good operating systems work. Everything needs a coherent, scaleable framework to coexist within. Giant zooming text is not that framework.
Well, the UI is not the framework, it has CE .net underneat the hood.
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Well, the Zune is just the perfect blank slate, isn't it? The hardware "could" do more, the OS "could" do more, the UI "could" do more.
And dude? There isn't any publicly available SDK. But I bet it would be awesome if there were!
Funny that you point out the features which JUST came out on the iPhone. Like cut'n paste and MMS. Windows CE could cut'n paste when it came out.. 10 years ago? Seems like forever. MMS is a very old feature for most cell phones.
He’s now comparing a feature that accessed by several of 40 different buttons and a stylus to a touch interface that uses a meaty finger for input. His argument is that they are somehow the same. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before, but his logic (or lack there of) is just getting more and more ridiculous.
Palm has had cut and paste on their devices for longer and yet the Pre has very limited cut and paste features. Imagine that? it’s like it’s different somehow. I think I’ll have to put on my ignore at this point.
He?s now comparing a feature that accessed by several of 40 different buttons and a stylus to a touch interface that uses a meaty finger for input. His argument is that they are somehow the same. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before, but his logic (or lack there of) is just getting more and more ridiculous.
Palm has had cut and paste on their devices for longer and yet the Pre has very limited cut and paste features. Imagine that? it?s like it?s different somehow. I think I?ll have to put on my ignore at this point.
Are you serious? Cut'n paste is somehow a genious feature? My Amiga 500 from 1987 called dibs on it. Not sure how using a stylus is so different from using a finger.
Simple proof. anybody who buys a zuneHD, take it out in daylight (not direct sunlight) and see how the screen looks, and post the results. If it stinks, game over, regardless of the processor speed and rez.
This review shows the Zune HD display in sunlight. Completely washed out.
Who cares? What people see is the interface and the applications. Many of the Zune's apps suck, but that's because of the ads they force you to watch. But it seems to play music and videos as well as the touch, and that's what people buy these things for.
The XBox 360 runs a PowerPC build of Windows NT. Who cares?
Who cares? What people see is the interface and the applications. Many of the Zune's apps suck, but that's because of the ads they force you to watch. But it seems to play music and videos as well as the touch, and that's what people buy these things for.
The XBox 360 runs a PowerPC build of Windows NT. Who cares?
(Begins to weep softly)
One more time. People buy the Touch for a lot more than its ability to play music and video. People will certainly buy the Zune for its ability to play music and video, because that's pretty much all it can do. That's the point. The WinCE underpinnings are well matched for playing music and video. The WinCE underpinnings are not well matched for the kind of scaleable, desktop derived OS that runs on the Touch. That's. The. Point.
I don't know if people care. I don't care if people care. I don't care. I'm just making a point about the relative strengths of the two platforms, and what it means for their prospects going forward. I don't have religious feelings about Windows CE, OS X, or Power PC builds of Windows freaking NT. Jesus.
The world is filled with mindless sheep that follow trends. When Ipod launched there were much better mp3 players on the market with more features but because of the clever marketing people soon associated mp3 with ipod. That's why it became so successful.
Is that so?
I remember very clearly the iPod launch. I bought one on the first day of its launch here in Hong Kong.
Please name one other MP3 player at the time the iPod was launched that was anywhere near the size of the iPod, with 5GB of capacity. Just one.
There weren't any. At. All.
The iPod was the first player that got the size/capacity equation right. Full stop. And that's why it sold. Not because of marketing.
It took a very long time for other players to catch up with that size/capacity sweet spot, and when they finally did, it was the software and interface that kept the iPod on top.
As for the Zune being a music player, and the iPod touch not concentrating on music, I'll say something here...
As a music player, and only a music player, the Nano and the Classic beat both the Touch and the Zune by leaps and bounds. You don't need a touch screen to do music, and it actually becomes a serious hindrance. I'd love to see a test where a Classic user and a Zune user go head to head and are asked to find and play ten tracks consecutively, and perform various tasks like pausing at certain intervals, going back, going forward, etc., while multitasking (like reading a stock ticker on the television, for instance). Under such a situation, the interface of the Classic and the Nano wins hands down.
If you're trying to make the case that WinCE is the equal to any of the mainstream desktop OSs out there, I'll just have to leave you to that. I mean, good grief.
Good God amighty, are you just determined to derail the conversation with bizarre inversions of everything I say? I never said that WinCE isn't up to par for a PMP or streaming video, I said just the opposite: that that's what it's good for.
I don't have to, we have the actual shipping product at hand and we can see, clearly, what it doesn't do. A lot so speculative hand waving about what it might or could or should pretty soon maybe do is beside the point. The Zune is very clearly not designed as a general purpose device. That doesn't make its dick smaller, for fucks' sake, it's just a design and marketing decision MS made. They want the heavy lifting to be done by WinMo, which, as you know, is also based on WinCE.
But, again, if there's nothing that WinCE can't do, why isn't MS shipping WinCE laptops? Big battery wins, I would think, and certainly no fear of the kind of netbook unfriendly trouble they got in with Vista. So, where are the powerful large WinCE devices?
Ok, where to start.
1) I never claimed that WinCE is a desktop OS. That's your words. It is designed for a different type of architecture with different needs. So, why don't you install the iPhone OS on your mac laptop? That would a completely retarded thing to do. These OSes are tuned for the specific tasks they are doing. Windows CE supports some 180 different CPUs, all of them targeted at smaller devices and embedded devices.
2) OSX on the iPhone is NOT a regular OSX. If you did a little digging you will find out that you can't just upload OSX to any platform and make it run. You have to recompile every binary for that hardware. You have to REDO the kernel. If you notice the iPhone kernel multitasks poorly. That's completely different from a standard OSX kernel.
The reason for poor multitasking is simple; it's a hell of a lot easier to redo a syncronous kernel than make it a full blown multitasking kernel. (The Zune actually multitasks pretty well in comparison)
And you can't just ADD shit from OSX to the iPhone OS. IT requires it to actually WORK on that plattform. It's different hardware.
In addition you need to add support for GSM and other phone functions which is NOT part of the OSX core. Even the UI framework on the iPhone is different than OSX.
If I were to venture a guess, they started with a slimmed down build of FreeBSD, added phone support. Redid the kernel for ARM. And added a new UI layer with touch support.
Or perhaps there was already a FreeBSD version which worked with ARM cpus' and they just added some flavour to it.
You claimed that WindowsCE is inferior to the OS on iPhone. I asked you to list some features missing from WindowsCE which is in the OS on iPhone. Since you cannot do that, I assume that you just made it up.
Remember, an APPLICATION is not the OS. Even though there are applications on the iPhone which does not exist on the Zune HD, that doesn't mean that you cannot write similar apps for Windows CE.
Dude, just look at the Windows CE APIs and you will know that you arguments are really weak.
As a recovering Apple fanboy, I can comment a bit on this.
I just got the Zune HD and like it better than the Touch, but I'm one that could care less about the apps. I want something that can play music and videos. Having a few games, a calculator, etc is fine. But if I want something small that can do computing then I'll go get a netbook. Sure, it's bigger than the iPod Touch, but so much easier to get things accomplished with.
The voice controls are terrible, just as they are on my phone. Besides, if they were so good then why even both with the touchscreen expense.
As for the Zune HD's display, it's lightyears beyond anything Apple is using. Yes, in direct sunlight it is washed out, just like the Touch. But it has no problem unless there's a ton of sunlight shining on it. My old MacBook, iMac, and iPods all had the same issues.
The Zune sounds better, looks better, and feels smaller.
And the big plus is that it doesn't use iTunes. iTunes works well on the Mac, but on the PC it causes numerous blue screens because Apple has done such a poor job programming it. It's the main reason I decided to ditch the iPod. I stopped buying Macs because they don't have what I want at a reasonable price and I love Windows 7, but iTunes is notorious on the Windows end for its problems.
If you love the apps then the iPod Touch is for you. Though I believe I read something that only 11% of users of the iPhone and Touch actually regularly use their apps. Most get ignored a week after download. Great tool to drive Apple profits and squeeze more money out of their customers, but I'm not sure how dedicated the average Touch user is to the apps.
What wasn't cute though, was your statement about many people here likely being under 12. Mature people don't make those kinds of statements about whole groups of people they obviously don't know.
Please allow me to clarify as I always respect what you have to say.
I wasn't talking about posters, especially the regulars, nor did I mean in any way to impugn or stereotype the mentality of any portion of the Apple Insider community, e.g., imply that anyone or any segments "sound like 12 year olds."
I simply don't think the f-bomb's appropriate in a site which is open to kids, or at least with no notice that it contains "mature content," and It's well-known that many young people are avidly into computing - many with skills and chops I'll never have at any age, and there are doubtless at least some reading the forums - and whether that's 10 or 100 or 10,000, and whether they hear it all the time elsewhere or not, or use it themselves already, I stand by my opinion that we therefore have some responsibility to curb our language in how we express our opinions here however strongly we hold them - on a site parents trust to let their kids pursue their interests.
E.g, I know for a fact that Leo Laporte moderates his chat rooms and forums just for this reason.
Context: It's somewhat ironic for me to be the bluenose here as I'm a performing spoken word artist and much of my material is R-rated. However I only do the R-rated stuff in r-rated venues, and if I do, say a reading at a Barnes and Noble, I tone the material down to PG-13. I've also done workshops in elementary schools and obviously I did only G stuff. There's a time and place for everything.
So that said, if you think I'm still out of bounds, I'd listen to why.....
Well, you would be suprised to know that there is quite a variaty in graphics cards. So I can install my PCIx tv tuner card on your mac and get it to work? Next to the PCIx raid controller and Soundblaster xFi?
Macs used PCIx as well for a few years. Nice to know you have an old, obsolete machine around.
Yes, we had PCIx raid controllers, sound cards, tuners and the rest.
Of course, modern machines don't use PCIx, they use Express.
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Well, I never had a problem installing any Windows OS. User error? Try installing OSX on a random laptop if you want a bigger challenge.
Well then, you must be unique.
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So, they are not beautiful machines?
You think you're a really funny guy.
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I know the standard wikipedia stuff anyone can look up, but what's different from me and you, is that I actually have both devices and speak from experience. I guess hearsay and guessing is better.
I don't believe a word you have to say. I'll match my knowledge against yours any day, and we'll check your Wiki abilities. I don't need them.
Please allow me to clarify as I always respect what you have to say.
I wasn't talking about posters, especially the regulars, nor did I mean in any way to impugn or stereotype the mentality of any portion of the Apple Insider community, e.g., imply that anyone or any segments "sound like 12 year olds."
I simply don't think the f-bomb's appropriate in a site which is open to kids, or at least with no notice that it contains "mature content," and It's well-known that many young people are avidly into computing - many with skills and chops I'll never have at any age, and there are doubtless at least some reading the forums - and whether that's 10 or 100 or 10,000, and whether they hear it all the time elsewhere or not, or use it themselves already, I stand by my opinion that we therefore have some responsibility to curb our language in how we express our opinions here however strongly we hold them - on a site parents trust to let their kids pursue their interests.
E.g, I know for a fact that Leo Laporte moderates his chat rooms and forums just for this reason.
Context: It's somewhat ironic for me to be the bluenose here as I'm a performing spoken word artist and much of my material is R-rated. However I only do the R-rated stuff in r-rated venues, and if I do, say a reading at a Barnes and Noble, I tone the material down to PG-13. I've also done workshops in elementary schools and obviously I did only G stuff. There's a time and place for everything.
So that said, if you think I'm still out of bounds, I'd listen to why.....
It was the way you stated it. Whether or not you meant it that way, it came off as though you were saying that many people here (Mac users) are under 12, indicating that a large part of the Mac community is composed of children under 12, and thus not being able to think like adults. That's a between the lines reading, but that's what it read like.
I always, if I see it, or it's brought to my attention, delete offensive words from posts, though I'm not a blue nose either, because there are younger folks who come here. Even if they didn't, it's still open enough to be considered to an extent, a family site, and many people don't like seeing offensive language in public posting. It also remains on the record, and do people really want that?
All I need, if I'm not in a thread to see for myself, or enter later, is a private post requesting a removal, or one can be made to the mods in general.
Macs used PCIx as well for a few years. Nice to know you have an old, obsolete machine around.
Yes, we had PCIx raid controllers, sound cards, tuners and the rest.
Of course, modern machines don't use PCIx, they use Express.
Yeah, my bad. I meant PCI express.
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Well then, you must be unique.
No, it takes about average IQ to be able to install an OS. About 95% of the worlds population has it figured out. But, if I were to guess; I'm pretty sure you've never installed Vista.
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You think you're a really funny guy.
I LOLED.
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I don't believe a word you have to say. I'll match my knowledge against yours any day, and we'll check your Wiki abilities. I don't need them.
So, you don't believe I have several Apple products as well as the Zune? Or are you saying that you are better at judging the quality of a product on paper w/o even owning it?
Anyways, your knowledge seems to surpass that of most humble human beings. Congrats.
About 95% of the worlds population has it figured out.
Why you say that, I don't know. That assumes everyone that uses Windows has installed it for themselves, which isn't true. You don't need to install Windows in order to be able to use it, you just buy the computer and Windows is usually already installed. That said, I don't think Windows is that hard to install, it's a bit much to presume most computer users have done it for themselves.
Not only that, there are estimated to be just over a billion computers in use and over a six billion people, I doubt more than 25% of the world's population has used a computer.
I don't understand how you could have confused PCIx with PCIe if you really knew computers as well as you say. You can't just blindly throw out acronyms, they mean something, and they aren't hard to get right in the first place, especially if it's your passion.
No, it takes about average IQ to be able to install an OS. About 95% of the worlds population has it figured out. But, if I were to guess; I'm pretty sure you've never installed Vista.
I've installed every PC OS going back to PCDOS 1. How about you? I've also installed OS's for Digital Equipment VAX's. How about you? I learned my first computer language, Fortran IV, in 1966 while in HS. How about you?
If you want to get into that kind of contest, you'll lose.
Very few people owning PC's have ever installed their OS, and when they do, it's often not that easy. But if you've ever done so, you would know. Try installing Win 7 on an XP machine. Have fun saving all your info first. I've had the pleasure of doing it on four machines now. Can't wait until the public gets its hands on it.
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I LOLED.
Good. Perhaps you do have a sense of humor.
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So, you don't believe I have several Apple products as well as the Zune? Or are you saying that you are better at judging the quality of a product on paper w/o even owning it?
I don't particularly believe what you say about them.
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Anyways, your knowledge seems to surpass that of most humble human beings. Congrats.
Comments
Except WinCE is by no means desktop Windows with stuff stripped out to make it fit. It's an embedded OS designed around extremely constrained power, memory and CPU conditions. It's not supposed to do any heavy lifting, it's supposed to be small. And it shares no code whatsoever with Windows.
OS X on the iPhone is indeed truncated to meet the needs of the hardware, with a touch optimized UI on top of that. But that's a very different thing than being limited in scope, and Apple can add and subtract the modular bits depending on form factor and the inevitable improvements in hardware. "Leaving off the parts you don't need" doesn't mean "lobotomizing the OS", it just means matching things like I/O and printer drivers and graphics and file systems to the hardware at hand.
This disparity is only going to get more pronounced as phone sized hardware gets every more powerful, and Apple take advantage of every bit of it with their scaleable OS. MS will be in the unenviable position of attempting to bolt on ever more functionality to an OS that was originally written to run on devices that by today's standards were little more than calculators.
This is pretty inacurate. Actually, the background for windows CE is pretty interesting. It is a real time OS and it was design for that purpose. (So you can guarantee that interupts are fired and that drivers not responding properly are sliced out by the kernel, each thread has a fixed amout of time to perform it's tasks, if it doesn't finish in time, the kernel moves on.. )..
Windows CE is modular in the way that it has.. modules.. Like any other semi decent OS on this planet.
I would say that MS actually had an advantage when designing Windows CE, they didn't have that much baggage they had to implement (it still supports quite a bit of the win32 apis though).
I have no CLUE what parts of the OS Apple took out to get it to work on a different platform, but it's normally a little more involved that what you are describing.
To claim that Windows CE is not up to par for a PMP or streaming video or playing games, it a blatant lie. The Zune HD does that now, and windows CE has been doing that for ages.
Read up on the APIs for windows CE. Check out the XNA framwork relased for the Zune HD. Then comeback and point out something it cannot do.
/twospoons.
Well, MS focused on it being a good music player first. Which I think they did a good job at. But then you have people like you focusing on everything else than that, and that's why I tried to prove to you that market share doesn't mean that much.
I have no idea what that means.
I'm not sure why you say the UI us unsuited for general computing tasks. It works for me and the few apps which is on it. Why don't you tape an apple logo on it and try it out for a few days and see what you think?
Of course it works for you and "the few apps", that's what it's designed for. What happens when you want to cut and paste a line from an email into a doc? Or download an image from a webpage and forward it in an MMS? Or use location services to locate a restaurant, look at the menu, check a map and get a reservation? Does the transition from the map to the reservation app zoom way out, spin around and then land you on a page with "ERSERV" at the top?
I know, MS will just make up some new UI stuff when they need it. Except that's not how operating systems, or at least good operating systems work. Everything needs a coherent, scaleable framework to coexist within. Giant zooming text is not that framework.
And yes, the Zune hardware and OS can do a hell of a lot more than what you see when playing music. Just google up the hardware and download the SDK if you want and start building some apps.
/twospoons.
Well, the Zune is just the perfect blank slate, isn't it? The hardware "could" do more, the OS "could" do more, the UI "could" do more.
And dude? There isn't any publicly available SDK. But I bet it would be awesome if there were!
This is pretty inacurate. Actually, the background for windows CE is pretty interesting. It is a real time OS and it was design for that purpose. (So you can guarantee that interupts are fired and that drivers not responding properly are sliced out by the kernel, each thread has a fixed amout of time to perform it's tasks, if it doesn't finish in time, the kernel moves on.. )..
Windows CE is modular in the way that it has.. modules.. Like any other semi decent OS on this planet.
I would say that MS actually had an advantage when designing Windows CE, they didn't have that much baggage they had to implement (it still supports quite a bit of the win32 apis though).
I have no CLUE what parts of the OS Apple took out to get it to work on a different platform, but it's normally a little more involved that what you are describing.
If you're trying to make the case that WinCE is the equal to any of the mainstream desktop OSs out there, I'll just have to leave you to that. I mean, good grief.
To claim that Windows CE is not up to par for a PMP or streaming video or playing games, it a blatant lie. The Zune HD does that now, and windows CE has been doing that for ages.
Good God amighty, are you just determined to derail the conversation with bizarre inversions of everything I say? I never said that WinCE isn't up to par for a PMP or streaming video, I said just the opposite: that that's what it's good for.
Read up on the APIs for windows CE. Check out the XNA framwork relased for the Zune HD. Then comeback and point out something it cannot do.
/twospoons.
I don't have to, we have the actual shipping product at hand and we can see, clearly, what it doesn't do. A lot so speculative hand waving about what it might or could or should pretty soon maybe do is beside the point. The Zune is very clearly not designed as a general purpose device. That doesn't make its dick smaller, for fucks' sake, it's just a design and marketing decision MS made. They want the heavy lifting to be done by WinMo, which, as you know, is also based on WinCE.
But, again, if there's nothing that WinCE can't do, why isn't MS shipping WinCE laptops? Big battery wins, I would think, and certainly no fear of the kind of netbook unfriendly trouble they got in with Vista. So, where are the powerful large WinCE devices?
I have no idea what that means.
Of course it works for you and "the few apps", that's what it's designed for. What happens when you want to cut and paste a line from an email into a doc? Or download an image from a webpage and forward it in an MMS?
Funny that you point out the features which JUST came out on the iPhone. Like cut'n paste and MMS. Windows CE could cut'n paste when it came out.. 10 years ago? Seems like forever. MMS is a very old feature for most cell phones.
Or use location services to locate a restaurant, look at the menu, check a map and get a reservation? Does the transition from the map to the reservation app zoom way out, spin around and then land you on a page with "ERSERV" at the top?
Hehe. Yep, the iPhone does a lot of great things. Never denied that.
I know, MS will just make up some new UI stuff when they need it. Except that's not how operating systems, or at least good operating systems work. Everything needs a coherent, scaleable framework to coexist within. Giant zooming text is not that framework.
Well, the UI is not the framework, it has CE .net underneat the hood.
Well, the Zune is just the perfect blank slate, isn't it? The hardware "could" do more, the OS "could" do more, the UI "could" do more.
And dude? There isn't any publicly available SDK. But I bet it would be awesome if there were!
http://news.softpedia.com/news/Zune-...e-121823.shtml
Here you go
/twospoons.
Funny that you point out the features which JUST came out on the iPhone. Like cut'n paste and MMS. Windows CE could cut'n paste when it came out.. 10 years ago? Seems like forever. MMS is a very old feature for most cell phones.
He’s now comparing a feature that accessed by several of 40 different buttons and a stylus to a touch interface that uses a meaty finger for input. His argument is that they are somehow the same. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before, but his logic (or lack there of) is just getting more and more ridiculous.
Palm has had cut and paste on their devices for longer and yet the Pre has very limited cut and paste features. Imagine that? it’s like it’s different somehow. I think I’ll have to put on my ignore at this point.
He?s now comparing a feature that accessed by several of 40 different buttons and a stylus to a touch interface that uses a meaty finger for input. His argument is that they are somehow the same. I gave him the benefit of the doubt before, but his logic (or lack there of) is just getting more and more ridiculous.
Palm has had cut and paste on their devices for longer and yet the Pre has very limited cut and paste features. Imagine that? it?s like it?s different somehow. I think I?ll have to put on my ignore at this point.
Are you serious? Cut'n paste is somehow a genious feature? My Amiga 500 from 1987 called dibs on it. Not sure how using a stylus is so different from using a finger.
Simple proof. anybody who buys a zuneHD, take it out in daylight (not direct sunlight) and see how the screen looks, and post the results. If it stinks, game over, regardless of the processor speed and rez.
This review shows the Zune HD display in sunlight. Completely washed out.
http://www.suntimes.com/technology/i...091609.article
It?s WinCE v. OS X!!! Are you kidding me?
Who cares? What people see is the interface and the applications. Many of the Zune's apps suck, but that's because of the ads they force you to watch. But it seems to play music and videos as well as the touch, and that's what people buy these things for.
The XBox 360 runs a PowerPC build of Windows NT. Who cares?
Who cares? What people see is the interface and the applications. Many of the Zune's apps suck, but that's because of the ads they force you to watch. But it seems to play music and videos as well as the touch, and that's what people buy these things for.
The XBox 360 runs a PowerPC build of Windows NT. Who cares?
(Begins to weep softly)
One more time. People buy the Touch for a lot more than its ability to play music and video. People will certainly buy the Zune for its ability to play music and video, because that's pretty much all it can do. That's the point. The WinCE underpinnings are well matched for playing music and video. The WinCE underpinnings are not well matched for the kind of scaleable, desktop derived OS that runs on the Touch. That's. The. Point.
I don't know if people care. I don't care if people care. I don't care. I'm just making a point about the relative strengths of the two platforms, and what it means for their prospects going forward. I don't have religious feelings about Windows CE, OS X, or Power PC builds of Windows freaking NT. Jesus.
This review shows the Zune HD display in sunlight. Completely washed out.
http://www.suntimes.com/technology/i...091609.article
Same problem I had at the fotball field with my iPhone today. None of these devices are great in direct sunlight.
/twospoons
The world is filled with mindless sheep that follow trends. When Ipod launched there were much better mp3 players on the market with more features but because of the clever marketing people soon associated mp3 with ipod. That's why it became so successful.
Is that so?
I remember very clearly the iPod launch. I bought one on the first day of its launch here in Hong Kong.
Please name one other MP3 player at the time the iPod was launched that was anywhere near the size of the iPod, with 5GB of capacity. Just one.
There weren't any. At. All.
The iPod was the first player that got the size/capacity equation right. Full stop. And that's why it sold. Not because of marketing.
It took a very long time for other players to catch up with that size/capacity sweet spot, and when they finally did, it was the software and interface that kept the iPod on top.
As a music player, and only a music player, the Nano and the Classic beat both the Touch and the Zune by leaps and bounds. You don't need a touch screen to do music, and it actually becomes a serious hindrance. I'd love to see a test where a Classic user and a Zune user go head to head and are asked to find and play ten tracks consecutively, and perform various tasks like pausing at certain intervals, going back, going forward, etc., while multitasking (like reading a stock ticker on the television, for instance). Under such a situation, the interface of the Classic and the Nano wins hands down.
If you're trying to make the case that WinCE is the equal to any of the mainstream desktop OSs out there, I'll just have to leave you to that. I mean, good grief.
Good God amighty, are you just determined to derail the conversation with bizarre inversions of everything I say? I never said that WinCE isn't up to par for a PMP or streaming video, I said just the opposite: that that's what it's good for.
I don't have to, we have the actual shipping product at hand and we can see, clearly, what it doesn't do. A lot so speculative hand waving about what it might or could or should pretty soon maybe do is beside the point. The Zune is very clearly not designed as a general purpose device. That doesn't make its dick smaller, for fucks' sake, it's just a design and marketing decision MS made. They want the heavy lifting to be done by WinMo, which, as you know, is also based on WinCE.
But, again, if there's nothing that WinCE can't do, why isn't MS shipping WinCE laptops? Big battery wins, I would think, and certainly no fear of the kind of netbook unfriendly trouble they got in with Vista. So, where are the powerful large WinCE devices?
Ok, where to start.
1) I never claimed that WinCE is a desktop OS. That's your words. It is designed for a different type of architecture with different needs. So, why don't you install the iPhone OS on your mac laptop? That would a completely retarded thing to do. These OSes are tuned for the specific tasks they are doing. Windows CE supports some 180 different CPUs, all of them targeted at smaller devices and embedded devices.
2) OSX on the iPhone is NOT a regular OSX. If you did a little digging you will find out that you can't just upload OSX to any platform and make it run. You have to recompile every binary for that hardware. You have to REDO the kernel. If you notice the iPhone kernel multitasks poorly. That's completely different from a standard OSX kernel.
The reason for poor multitasking is simple; it's a hell of a lot easier to redo a syncronous kernel than make it a full blown multitasking kernel. (The Zune actually multitasks pretty well in comparison)
And you can't just ADD shit from OSX to the iPhone OS. IT requires it to actually WORK on that plattform. It's different hardware.
In addition you need to add support for GSM and other phone functions which is NOT part of the OSX core. Even the UI framework on the iPhone is different than OSX.
If I were to venture a guess, they started with a slimmed down build of FreeBSD, added phone support. Redid the kernel for ARM. And added a new UI layer with touch support.
Or perhaps there was already a FreeBSD version which worked with ARM cpus' and they just added some flavour to it.
You claimed that WindowsCE is inferior to the OS on iPhone. I asked you to list some features missing from WindowsCE which is in the OS on iPhone. Since you cannot do that, I assume that you just made it up.
Remember, an APPLICATION is not the OS. Even though there are applications on the iPhone which does not exist on the Zune HD, that doesn't mean that you cannot write similar apps for Windows CE.
Dude, just look at the Windows CE APIs and you will know that you arguments are really weak.
/twospoons.
I just got the Zune HD and like it better than the Touch, but I'm one that could care less about the apps. I want something that can play music and videos. Having a few games, a calculator, etc is fine. But if I want something small that can do computing then I'll go get a netbook. Sure, it's bigger than the iPod Touch, but so much easier to get things accomplished with.
The voice controls are terrible, just as they are on my phone. Besides, if they were so good then why even both with the touchscreen expense.
As for the Zune HD's display, it's lightyears beyond anything Apple is using. Yes, in direct sunlight it is washed out, just like the Touch. But it has no problem unless there's a ton of sunlight shining on it. My old MacBook, iMac, and iPods all had the same issues.
The Zune sounds better, looks better, and feels smaller.
And the big plus is that it doesn't use iTunes. iTunes works well on the Mac, but on the PC it causes numerous blue screens because Apple has done such a poor job programming it. It's the main reason I decided to ditch the iPod. I stopped buying Macs because they don't have what I want at a reasonable price and I love Windows 7, but iTunes is notorious on the Windows end for its problems.
If you love the apps then the iPod Touch is for you. Though I believe I read something that only 11% of users of the iPhone and Touch actually regularly use their apps. Most get ignored a week after download. Great tool to drive Apple profits and squeeze more money out of their customers, but I'm not sure how dedicated the average Touch user is to the apps.
What wasn't cute though, was your statement about many people here likely being under 12. Mature people don't make those kinds of statements about whole groups of people they obviously don't know.
Please allow me to clarify as I always respect what you have to say.
I wasn't talking about posters, especially the regulars, nor did I mean in any way to impugn or stereotype the mentality of any portion of the Apple Insider community, e.g., imply that anyone or any segments "sound like 12 year olds."
I simply don't think the f-bomb's appropriate in a site which is open to kids, or at least with no notice that it contains "mature content," and It's well-known that many young people are avidly into computing - many with skills and chops I'll never have at any age, and there are doubtless at least some reading the forums - and whether that's 10 or 100 or 10,000, and whether they hear it all the time elsewhere or not, or use it themselves already, I stand by my opinion that we therefore have some responsibility to curb our language in how we express our opinions here however strongly we hold them - on a site parents trust to let their kids pursue their interests.
E.g, I know for a fact that Leo Laporte moderates his chat rooms and forums just for this reason.
Context: It's somewhat ironic for me to be the bluenose here as I'm a performing spoken word artist and much of my material is R-rated. However I only do the R-rated stuff in r-rated venues, and if I do, say a reading at a Barnes and Noble, I tone the material down to PG-13. I've also done workshops in elementary schools and obviously I did only G stuff. There's a time and place for everything.
So that said, if you think I'm still out of bounds, I'd listen to why.....
Well, you would be suprised to know that there is quite a variaty in graphics cards. So I can install my PCIx tv tuner card on your mac and get it to work? Next to the PCIx raid controller and Soundblaster xFi?
Macs used PCIx as well for a few years. Nice to know you have an old, obsolete machine around.
Yes, we had PCIx raid controllers, sound cards, tuners and the rest.
Of course, modern machines don't use PCIx, they use Express.
Well, I never had a problem installing any Windows OS. User error? Try installing OSX on a random laptop if you want a bigger challenge.
Well then, you must be unique.
So, they are not beautiful machines?
You think you're a really funny guy.
I know the standard wikipedia stuff anyone can look up, but what's different from me and you, is that I actually have both devices and speak from experience. I guess hearsay and guessing is better.
I don't believe a word you have to say. I'll match my knowledge against yours any day, and we'll check your Wiki abilities. I don't need them.
Please allow me to clarify as I always respect what you have to say.
I wasn't talking about posters, especially the regulars, nor did I mean in any way to impugn or stereotype the mentality of any portion of the Apple Insider community, e.g., imply that anyone or any segments "sound like 12 year olds."
I simply don't think the f-bomb's appropriate in a site which is open to kids, or at least with no notice that it contains "mature content," and It's well-known that many young people are avidly into computing - many with skills and chops I'll never have at any age, and there are doubtless at least some reading the forums - and whether that's 10 or 100 or 10,000, and whether they hear it all the time elsewhere or not, or use it themselves already, I stand by my opinion that we therefore have some responsibility to curb our language in how we express our opinions here however strongly we hold them - on a site parents trust to let their kids pursue their interests.
E.g, I know for a fact that Leo Laporte moderates his chat rooms and forums just for this reason.
Context: It's somewhat ironic for me to be the bluenose here as I'm a performing spoken word artist and much of my material is R-rated. However I only do the R-rated stuff in r-rated venues, and if I do, say a reading at a Barnes and Noble, I tone the material down to PG-13. I've also done workshops in elementary schools and obviously I did only G stuff. There's a time and place for everything.
So that said, if you think I'm still out of bounds, I'd listen to why.....
It was the way you stated it. Whether or not you meant it that way, it came off as though you were saying that many people here (Mac users) are under 12, indicating that a large part of the Mac community is composed of children under 12, and thus not being able to think like adults. That's a between the lines reading, but that's what it read like.
I always, if I see it, or it's brought to my attention, delete offensive words from posts, though I'm not a blue nose either, because there are younger folks who come here. Even if they didn't, it's still open enough to be considered to an extent, a family site, and many people don't like seeing offensive language in public posting. It also remains on the record, and do people really want that?
All I need, if I'm not in a thread to see for myself, or enter later, is a private post requesting a removal, or one can be made to the mods in general.
Macs used PCIx as well for a few years. Nice to know you have an old, obsolete machine around.
Yes, we had PCIx raid controllers, sound cards, tuners and the rest.
Of course, modern machines don't use PCIx, they use Express.
Yeah, my bad. I meant PCI express.
Well then, you must be unique.
No, it takes about average IQ to be able to install an OS. About 95% of the worlds population has it figured out. But, if I were to guess; I'm pretty sure you've never installed Vista.
You think you're a really funny guy.
I LOLED.
I don't believe a word you have to say. I'll match my knowledge against yours any day, and we'll check your Wiki abilities. I don't need them.
So, you don't believe I have several Apple products as well as the Zune? Or are you saying that you are better at judging the quality of a product on paper w/o even owning it?
Anyways, your knowledge seems to surpass that of most humble human beings. Congrats.
/twospoons
About 95% of the worlds population has it figured out.
Why you say that, I don't know. That assumes everyone that uses Windows has installed it for themselves, which isn't true. You don't need to install Windows in order to be able to use it, you just buy the computer and Windows is usually already installed. That said, I don't think Windows is that hard to install, it's a bit much to presume most computer users have done it for themselves.
Not only that, there are estimated to be just over a billion computers in use and over a six billion people, I doubt more than 25% of the world's population has used a computer.
I don't understand how you could have confused PCIx with PCIe if you really knew computers as well as you say. You can't just blindly throw out acronyms, they mean something, and they aren't hard to get right in the first place, especially if it's your passion.
Yeah, my bad. I meant PCI express.
No, it takes about average IQ to be able to install an OS. About 95% of the worlds population has it figured out. But, if I were to guess; I'm pretty sure you've never installed Vista.
I've installed every PC OS going back to PCDOS 1. How about you? I've also installed OS's for Digital Equipment VAX's. How about you? I learned my first computer language, Fortran IV, in 1966 while in HS. How about you?
If you want to get into that kind of contest, you'll lose.
Very few people owning PC's have ever installed their OS, and when they do, it's often not that easy. But if you've ever done so, you would know. Try installing Win 7 on an XP machine. Have fun saving all your info first. I've had the pleasure of doing it on four machines now. Can't wait until the public gets its hands on it.
I LOLED.
Good. Perhaps you do have a sense of humor.
So, you don't believe I have several Apple products as well as the Zune? Or are you saying that you are better at judging the quality of a product on paper w/o even owning it?
I don't particularly believe what you say about them.
Anyways, your knowledge seems to surpass that of most humble human beings. Congrats.
/twospoons
You don't act humbly.