The chip in the Storm/Tour can work in the iPhone in the same space as the current 3G chips and without any additional power drain? I think we need to consider some other physical differences in the chips. The iPhone and Storm/Tour are note exactly the same level of device. That is without even considering what Qualcomm charges for the use of the CDMA/CDMA2000 radios. i?ve read that beside basic costs they also want 5.5% of the gross revenue from each device.
Additional power drain? Not exactly the same level of device? Extra charges?
Do you have any of the answers or are you just throwing questions out there with the intent of having people think you know the answers?
I'm not sure everyone agrees with that. I think that all Carriers will go to 4G about the same time....and all 4G phones will be out at the same time as well.
At least AT&T has an upgrade path until 4G is fully rolled out (3.2Mb, then 7.2Mb, then 14Mb). Verizon is stuck around 1.4MB, right?
Verizon's LTE build-out is a lot further along than AT&T (and the other 2 carriers as well).
Yes, AT&T will have higher speed with their 3G upgrades than Verizon. And you will see it in laptop usage. The concern is how much of a difference can you see it in phone usage. The Droid and the iphone have basically the same CPU setup, but the Droid has a newer HTML engine (a newer webkit HMTL5 engine) and has a wider screen (less horizontal scrolling and resizing). So you may have a better and faster web browsing experience on a Droid with a slower EV-DO network.
I was talking about a CDMA-ONLY phone. Read my comments again.
Oh gee, sorry. The article is talking about a dual radio chipset, and how if Verizon got an iphone it wouldn't be cdma only. Didn't realize you were talking about CDMA in general. Do you travel internationally a lot or something btw? You listed that as a reason not to get a cdma phone.
As far as comparing current networks to tomorrow's, my comment still stands.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
Apple is never going to partner up with Sprint with their push towards a proprietary 4G network. Not when all the other networks will be standardized on LTE.
Besides, Sprint doesn't even run their own network anymore, Ericsson does.
I didn't bring it up to talk about if iphone goes to sprint or not. Sprint's network, right now, is faster than AT&T's, ran by ericsson or not.
It seems like a lot of talk about not going with CDMA stems from what the future holds, and not what's there now. People do realize you're only obligated to uphold a 2 year contract right? I mean, it's not like picking CMDA today will leave you without any service when you're 80.
I'm not sure everyone agrees with that. I think that all Carriers will go to 4G about the same time....and all 4G phones will be out at the same time as well.
Not likely. Verizon and Sprint have to move to ?4G? technologies sooner than networks using WCDMA because CDMA/CDM2000 has reached its peak. They aren?t even upgrading to EVDO Rev. B as it would just be a very expensive and short lived stopgap.
Sprint has foolishly chosen WiMAX and Verizon has smartly chosen LTE, but these will take years to build up the network and years to get chips for phones in the same size and power usage as their current ones. Verizon will launch LTE as USB cards for notebooks first since these chips can be larger and use more power than in phones.
WCDMA on the other hand is still has a long way to go before it reaches its dead end and requires a carrier to move to LTE. It has a maximum downlink of 84.4Mbps and uplink of 42Mbps with the 3GPP?s Release 9 standards and the possibility of moving even higher. That is all without going to 4G and likely more than a decade before that data rate would even have phone HW that could possibly handle the actual bandwidth.
Of course, the technology hasn?t been invented yet to make it viable but when you compare the power drains of EDGE over HSDPA you have to wonder what the power drains of a new tech like LTE will be over HSDPA. At this point Verizon?s claims about LTE is just vapourware at this time and have seemingly done well to get some people to stick with Verizon in the hopes of the iPhone coming in 2010 with LTE. I figure 5 years before it?s built out like their EVDO network.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hudson1
Additional power drain? Not exactly the same level of device? Extra charges?
Do you have any of the answers or are you just throwing questions out there with the intent of having people think you know the answers?
Agreed. I'm not sure that I would want a CDMA-only iPhone. No international coverage, no concurrent voice/data, relatively slow access (compared to the newer 3G speeds about to come out).
Verizon would have to be real aggressive on their price and monthly plans to win over new customers.
But if you are already a Verizon customer, you've already decided that lack of international roaming and concurrent voice/data isn't an issue. Granted, the voice/data issue might be a little worse because the iPhone makes using data such a better experience; but you've already determined that international roaming isn't important enough to leave Verizon just to get an iPhone. So while it may not be as effective at getting people to leave ATT for Verizon, it would definitely stem the flow of people leaving Verizon for ATT. Besides, Americans are notorious for never leaving their own country, so it's a non-issue anyway.
And one other thought... a CDMA phone would be PERFECT for Apple, too. If I switch to ATT and buy and iPhone, Apple gets one sale. And it might be 2-3 years before I buy another iPhone. But if you sell me a CDMA iPhone in 2010, and then roll-out the CDMA/GSM/LTE phone in 2011, you'll get another sale from me!
Note its the embedded module I can get, not just an external modem. That sounds like the standard 40mm X 30mm x 4mm-ish PCI mini-card embedded module. You could throw the silicon into an iPhone chassis with a custom PCB no problem.
The chip in the Storm/Tour can work in the iPhone in the same space as the current 3G chips and without any additional power drain?
No the Storm2 probably has a Qualcomm MSM7627 in it, the original Storm had a MSM7600 in it. Both of these chips integrate baseband + application processors on the same chip. Apple use a two chip solution with separate application and baseband processors.
The Qualcomm MSM chips are both too expensive and will burn too much power to have them and a suitable application processor inside the phone. Unless Apple has some secret deal with Qualcomm going on for a suitable baseband only processor you are never going to see a 3GS performance level WCDMA+EVDO iPhone. It's vaguely possible that they could do a single chip 3G performance level iPhone with chips that are currently on the market.
There are various things that Apple could do but most of them involve having two different iPhones with two different feature sets, i.e. you can either have speed *or* EVDO but not both. I just can't see Apple doing this.
It's possible that Apple are doing something with EVDO but none of the predictions I've seen so far are remotely credible.
Note its the embedded module I can get, not just an external modem. That sounds like the standard 40mm X 30mm x 4mm-ish PCI mini-card embedded module. You could throw the silicon into an iPhone chassis with a custom PCB no problem.
According to Qualcomm:
Quote:
Qualcomm's press release states that it will be sampling advanced new dual-carrier HSPA+ and Multi-Mode 3G/LTE chipsets for launch in the second half of 2010
This means that it is a NEW chip they're talking about. Not an old chip. And it isn't even out yet.
While talking about chips and bits, whatever happened to PA Semiconductor? Apple bought them for some reason. Perhaps they are making a multi-baseband IC for Apple widgets alone.
It would let them sample internally, so no analyst would really have a clue what's going on regarding lead times for chips. Plus, one of their vendors with a fab (like Infineon) could make the chip for them and maintain the current (and excellent) supply-chain Apple has going for them, which is probably the most unheralded success story of the entire iPhone OS platform (Touch & iPhone).
This means that it is a NEW chip they're talking about. Not an old chip. And it isn't even out yet.
That might be true, but that press release doesn't mention an iPhone at all, some analyst is making his own inference there with the press release. Maybe the analyst is like a lot of people around here who doesn't know WCDMA/CDMA baseband procs from Qualcomm are in-market as we speak.
If the question is whether or not Apple could crank out a CDMA/WCDMA worldphone with Qualcomm silicon by summer of 2010, the answer is yes.
While talking about chips and bits, whatever happened to PA Semiconductor? Apple bought them for some reason. Perhaps they are making a multi-baseband IC for Apple widgets alone.
It would let them sample internally, so no analyst would really have a clue what's going on regarding lead times for chips. Plus, one of their vendors with a fab (like Infineon) could make the chip for them and maintain the current (and excellent) supply-chain Apple has going for them, which is probably the most unheralded success story of the entire iPhone OS platform (Touch & iPhone).
They're supposedly designing processor chips.
Cell radios are a very different technology. If they were designing them, it's likely we would have seen articles mentioning all the Ads for designers for that.
Besides, a few companies own all the patents in this area. Apple would be forced to license much of that.
Cell radios are a very different technology. If they were designing them, it's likely we would have seen articles mentioning all the Ads for designers for that.
Besides, a few companies own all the patents in this area. Apple would be forced to license much of that.
Yeah, I remember the hubbub when Apple bought PA Semi. Speaking of patents, Qualcomm is the IP dark-side of silicon...some greedy suns-of-b's run Qualcomm like a giant family business (heck, it IS a family business!). It can't be easy for them to watch the arterial spray of IP royalty gold that CDMA has been for them get deep-six'ed over the next 24 months.
Can you imagine a mercurial guy like Steve Jobs and his crew negotiating with the Qualcomm IP goons? Unpleasant I imagine to say the least.
I think the analyst is right about a WCDMA/CDMA/LTE chipset timeframe. But for a "worldphone" that works on WCDMA/CDMA alone, doesn't the Qualcomm Gobi already do that?
You can get that chipset already as an embedded module for laptops, Xpress cards, and such. Other than a battery hit, I don't see what would stop someone from using this chipset in a mobile handheld (like an iPhone).
What would keep Apple from using that chipset in an iPhone for summer 2010? Nothing that I can see. What am I missing here?
That is the issue, it a power hogs, CDMA uses more power then GSM, generally CDMA phone use more power and less battery light then a GSM counter part. This is the reason that it took two year for Motorola to bring the RAZR to VZ the chipset was a power hog and you could only get about 2 to 3 hours of talk time. It took Qualcom two years to come out with a lower power chip and battery technology to improve enough to all the CDMA RAZR to get at least 4 hrs of talk time.
I do not think Apple would want to put a combine chip-set and sacrifice battery life. Also, the antenna are different so that possibly means two antennas in the product.
That's your statement. It doesn't mean that Apple can do it. Show us why.
It all depends I suppose on when that AT&T contract ends. If it tanks in summer of 2010, then surely Apple has planned for that. The ability to sell a CDMA device is getting I think more and more pressing for Apple. Essentially, Verizon is turning into a well-funded ecosystem for iPhone competitors precisely because there is no iPhone on Verizon.
The Droid is the latest salvo, and whether you are an Android lover or not, you can't deny Android is getting better, faster, and on more devices and networks, than anything else in the market (including the iPhone). Apple needs its offerings going head-to-head with these other platforms everywhere they pop up.
There is also something to this with long-term relationships regarding emerging LTE networks. A poster farther up this thread was hyping 3GPP as competitive with LTE for several years, and he's right in raw bandwidth. But the phone business itself changes with LTE - it goes all IP - which means mucho-cheaper for customers. You also look at who has the better network, and its Verizon...and I don't mean just the wireless service. All the money that Verizon could have been shelling out to Apple these past few years has been dumped into their network instead. Fiber over the "last mile," femtocells, IP voice telephony, Verizon is ahead of AT&T in ALL those things.
It makes sense for Apple to sell a widget on Verizon's network. They can make a multi-mode phone now. They undoubtedly can get a better deal out of Verizon than whatever terms were turned down back in 2007.
Oh, one more thing...Apple would make hella cash selling iPhones on Verizon...the money part, almost forgot that one.
Comments
The chip in the Storm/Tour can work in the iPhone in the same space as the current 3G chips and without any additional power drain? I think we need to consider some other physical differences in the chips. The iPhone and Storm/Tour are note exactly the same level of device. That is without even considering what Qualcomm charges for the use of the CDMA/CDMA2000 radios. i?ve read that beside basic costs they also want 5.5% of the gross revenue from each device.
Additional power drain? Not exactly the same level of device? Extra charges?
Do you have any of the answers or are you just throwing questions out there with the intent of having people think you know the answers?
I think he means anti AT&T not anti Apple and yes they would lol. As in ' iPhone is better on our network'. Not that I am saying they will get it ...
He was responding to me, and I meant the anti Apple Ads.
I'm not sure everyone agrees with that. I think that all Carriers will go to 4G about the same time....and all 4G phones will be out at the same time as well.
At least AT&T has an upgrade path until 4G is fully rolled out (3.2Mb, then 7.2Mb, then 14Mb). Verizon is stuck around 1.4MB, right?
Verizon's LTE build-out is a lot further along than AT&T (and the other 2 carriers as well).
Yes, AT&T will have higher speed with their 3G upgrades than Verizon. And you will see it in laptop usage. The concern is how much of a difference can you see it in phone usage. The Droid and the iphone have basically the same CPU setup, but the Droid has a newer HTML engine (a newer webkit HMTL5 engine) and has a wider screen (less horizontal scrolling and resizing). So you may have a better and faster web browsing experience on a Droid with a slower EV-DO network.
I was talking about a CDMA-ONLY phone. Read my comments again.
Oh gee, sorry. The article is talking about a dual radio chipset, and how if Verizon got an iphone it wouldn't be cdma only. Didn't realize you were talking about CDMA in general. Do you travel internationally a lot or something btw? You listed that as a reason not to get a cdma phone.
As far as comparing current networks to tomorrow's, my comment still stands.
Apple is never going to partner up with Sprint with their push towards a proprietary 4G network. Not when all the other networks will be standardized on LTE.
Besides, Sprint doesn't even run their own network anymore, Ericsson does.
I didn't bring it up to talk about if iphone goes to sprint or not. Sprint's network, right now, is faster than AT&T's, ran by ericsson or not.
It seems like a lot of talk about not going with CDMA stems from what the future holds, and not what's there now. People do realize you're only obligated to uphold a 2 year contract right? I mean, it's not like picking CMDA today will leave you without any service when you're 80.
I'm not sure everyone agrees with that. I think that all Carriers will go to 4G about the same time....and all 4G phones will be out at the same time as well.
Not likely. Verizon and Sprint have to move to ?4G? technologies sooner than networks using WCDMA because CDMA/CDM2000 has reached its peak. They aren?t even upgrading to EVDO Rev. B as it would just be a very expensive and short lived stopgap.
Sprint has foolishly chosen WiMAX and Verizon has smartly chosen LTE, but these will take years to build up the network and years to get chips for phones in the same size and power usage as their current ones. Verizon will launch LTE as USB cards for notebooks first since these chips can be larger and use more power than in phones.
WCDMA on the other hand is still has a long way to go before it reaches its dead end and requires a carrier to move to LTE. It has a maximum downlink of 84.4Mbps and uplink of 42Mbps with the 3GPP?s Release 9 standards and the possibility of moving even higher. That is all without going to 4G and likely more than a decade before that data rate would even have phone HW that could possibly handle the actual bandwidth.
Of course, the technology hasn?t been invented yet to make it viable but when you compare the power drains of EDGE over HSDPA you have to wonder what the power drains of a new tech like LTE will be over HSDPA. At this point Verizon?s claims about LTE is just vapourware at this time and have seemingly done well to get some people to stick with Verizon in the hopes of the iPhone coming in 2010 with LTE. I figure 5 years before it?s built out like their EVDO network.
Additional power drain? Not exactly the same level of device? Extra charges?
Do you have any of the answers or are you just throwing questions out there with the intent of having people think you know the answers?
Yes, yes, yes and the first one.
Agreed. I'm not sure that I would want a CDMA-only iPhone. No international coverage, no concurrent voice/data, relatively slow access (compared to the newer 3G speeds about to come out).
Verizon would have to be real aggressive on their price and monthly plans to win over new customers.
But if you are already a Verizon customer, you've already decided that lack of international roaming and concurrent voice/data isn't an issue. Granted, the voice/data issue might be a little worse because the iPhone makes using data such a better experience; but you've already determined that international roaming isn't important enough to leave Verizon just to get an iPhone. So while it may not be as effective at getting people to leave ATT for Verizon, it would definitely stem the flow of people leaving Verizon for ATT. Besides, Americans are notorious for never leaving their own country, so it's a non-issue anyway.
And one other thought... a CDMA phone would be PERFECT for Apple, too. If I switch to ATT and buy and iPhone, Apple gets one sale. And it might be 2-3 years before I buy another iPhone. But if you sell me a CDMA iPhone in 2010, and then roll-out the CDMA/GSM/LTE phone in 2011, you'll get another sale from me!
It's brand new, and is just now coming out. Apple would have needed it a good 6 months ago for a June 2010 release.
Qualcomm Gobi new? Gobi's been around for a year. I can buy a laptop here http://www.panasonic.com/business/to...ughbook-F8.asp with a Gobi embedded module installed.
Note its the embedded module I can get, not just an external modem. That sounds like the standard 40mm X 30mm x 4mm-ish PCI mini-card embedded module. You could throw the silicon into an iPhone chassis with a custom PCB no problem.
The chip in the Storm/Tour can work in the iPhone in the same space as the current 3G chips and without any additional power drain?
No the Storm2 probably has a Qualcomm MSM7627 in it, the original Storm had a MSM7600 in it. Both of these chips integrate baseband + application processors on the same chip. Apple use a two chip solution with separate application and baseband processors.
The Qualcomm MSM chips are both too expensive and will burn too much power to have them and a suitable application processor inside the phone. Unless Apple has some secret deal with Qualcomm going on for a suitable baseband only processor you are never going to see a 3GS performance level WCDMA+EVDO iPhone. It's vaguely possible that they could do a single chip 3G performance level iPhone with chips that are currently on the market.
There are various things that Apple could do but most of them involve having two different iPhones with two different feature sets, i.e. you can either have speed *or* EVDO but not both. I just can't see Apple doing this.
It's possible that Apple are doing something with EVDO but none of the predictions I've seen so far are remotely credible.
Qualcomm Gobi new? Gobi's been around for a year. I can buy a laptop here http://www.panasonic.com/business/to...ughbook-F8.asp with a Gobi embedded module installed.
Note its the embedded module I can get, not just an external modem. That sounds like the standard 40mm X 30mm x 4mm-ish PCI mini-card embedded module. You could throw the silicon into an iPhone chassis with a custom PCB no problem.
According to Qualcomm:
Qualcomm's press release states that it will be sampling advanced new dual-carrier HSPA+ and Multi-Mode 3G/LTE chipsets for launch in the second half of 2010
This means that it is a NEW chip they're talking about. Not an old chip. And it isn't even out yet.
It would let them sample internally, so no analyst would really have a clue what's going on regarding lead times for chips. Plus, one of their vendors with a fab (like Infineon) could make the chip for them and maintain the current (and excellent) supply-chain Apple has going for them, which is probably the most unheralded success story of the entire iPhone OS platform (Touch & iPhone).
According to Qualcomm:
This means that it is a NEW chip they're talking about. Not an old chip. And it isn't even out yet.
That might be true, but that press release doesn't mention an iPhone at all, some analyst is making his own inference there with the press release. Maybe the analyst is like a lot of people around here who doesn't know WCDMA/CDMA baseband procs from Qualcomm are in-market as we speak.
If the question is whether or not Apple could crank out a CDMA/WCDMA worldphone with Qualcomm silicon by summer of 2010, the answer is yes.
As in 'And now one more thing ... err I mean miracle ..."
Imagine that as the "one more thing" at the end next year's WWDC.
While talking about chips and bits, whatever happened to PA Semiconductor? Apple bought them for some reason. Perhaps they are making a multi-baseband IC for Apple widgets alone.
It would let them sample internally, so no analyst would really have a clue what's going on regarding lead times for chips. Plus, one of their vendors with a fab (like Infineon) could make the chip for them and maintain the current (and excellent) supply-chain Apple has going for them, which is probably the most unheralded success story of the entire iPhone OS platform (Touch & iPhone).
They're supposedly designing processor chips.
Cell radios are a very different technology. If they were designing them, it's likely we would have seen articles mentioning all the Ads for designers for that.
Besides, a few companies own all the patents in this area. Apple would be forced to license much of that.
If the question is whether or not Apple could crank out a CDMA/WCDMA worldphone with Qualcomm silicon by summer of 2010, the answer is yes.
That's your statement. It doesn't mean that Apple can do it. Show us why.
They're supposedly designing processor chips.
Cell radios are a very different technology. If they were designing them, it's likely we would have seen articles mentioning all the Ads for designers for that.
Besides, a few companies own all the patents in this area. Apple would be forced to license much of that.
Yeah, I remember the hubbub when Apple bought PA Semi. Speaking of patents, Qualcomm is the IP dark-side of silicon...some greedy suns-of-b's run Qualcomm like a giant family business (heck, it IS a family business!). It can't be easy for them to watch the arterial spray of IP royalty gold that CDMA has been for them get deep-six'ed over the next 24 months.
Can you imagine a mercurial guy like Steve Jobs and his crew negotiating with the Qualcomm IP goons? Unpleasant I imagine to say the least.
I think the analyst is right about a WCDMA/CDMA/LTE chipset timeframe. But for a "worldphone" that works on WCDMA/CDMA alone, doesn't the Qualcomm Gobi already do that?
You can get that chipset already as an embedded module for laptops, Xpress cards, and such. Other than a battery hit, I don't see what would stop someone from using this chipset in a mobile handheld (like an iPhone).
What would keep Apple from using that chipset in an iPhone for summer 2010? Nothing that I can see. What am I missing here?
That is the issue, it a power hogs, CDMA uses more power then GSM, generally CDMA phone use more power and less battery light then a GSM counter part. This is the reason that it took two year for Motorola to bring the RAZR to VZ the chipset was a power hog and you could only get about 2 to 3 hours of talk time. It took Qualcom two years to come out with a lower power chip and battery technology to improve enough to all the CDMA RAZR to get at least 4 hrs of talk time.
I do not think Apple would want to put a combine chip-set and sacrifice battery life. Also, the antenna are different so that possibly means two antennas in the product.
Is this the same Ashok Kumar? http://iphonasia.com/?p=7232
This is complete and unadulterated FUD.
Is this the same Ashok Kumar? http://iphonasia.com/?p=7232
Heh!
Actually, Kunar was right after all. Remember that China Unicom only sold 5,000 phones the first day? Not close to what was expected.
So he gets the last laugh.
That's your statement. It doesn't mean that Apple can do it. Show us why.
It all depends I suppose on when that AT&T contract ends. If it tanks in summer of 2010, then surely Apple has planned for that. The ability to sell a CDMA device is getting I think more and more pressing for Apple. Essentially, Verizon is turning into a well-funded ecosystem for iPhone competitors precisely because there is no iPhone on Verizon.
The Droid is the latest salvo, and whether you are an Android lover or not, you can't deny Android is getting better, faster, and on more devices and networks, than anything else in the market (including the iPhone). Apple needs its offerings going head-to-head with these other platforms everywhere they pop up.
There is also something to this with long-term relationships regarding emerging LTE networks. A poster farther up this thread was hyping 3GPP as competitive with LTE for several years, and he's right in raw bandwidth. But the phone business itself changes with LTE - it goes all IP - which means mucho-cheaper for customers. You also look at who has the better network, and its Verizon...and I don't mean just the wireless service. All the money that Verizon could have been shelling out to Apple these past few years has been dumped into their network instead. Fiber over the "last mile," femtocells, IP voice telephony, Verizon is ahead of AT&T in ALL those things.
It makes sense for Apple to sell a widget on Verizon's network. They can make a multi-mode phone now. They undoubtedly can get a better deal out of Verizon than whatever terms were turned down back in 2007.
Oh, one more thing...Apple would make hella cash selling iPhones on Verizon...the money part, almost forgot that one.
Only question is that exclusivity contract.