As far as your soccer mom reference goes, it's not really fair. If you think you're a superior human being because you know a little computerize, that's great for you! But most of the world doesn't care for it, or your claiming that superiority. If you really want a geek phone, buy the Droid. It's made for boys like you, with the flaming meteoroids, and other manly references and all. The iPhone is very popular because people can use it without having to go to geeks like you think you are, and asking how to use it.
Netbooks have nothing to do with this argument.
No I think it was a valid reference and not condending. I don't think I'm superior because of my tech skills and most of friends are actually non-techies. But there is irony of tech savvy people on this forum who eagerly hail even the smallest improvement in the iPhone who then say it doesn't need something as useful as multitasking.
I'm not interested in any of that crap you mentioned. I love my iPhone 3G and my MBP unibody. If Apple made a mid range tower, I'd buy it in a second. But I can't help but notice all the Orwellian doublethink that goes on among Mac fans and I point it out. Two years ago these people were saying Apple didn't need to allow third party apps, now they celebrate the app store as the defining feature. As for your condescending remarks - you spend all day on a computer forum, reading every post and replying at length. Nuff said. Some of us have a life.
So how's the system wide cut and paste on Android coming along?
I noticed that on an HTC Magic that what you can select to cut or copy is extremely limited.
I wonder why Task Killer applications are so popular in the Android Marketplace, there's plenty of fart applications and quite a few "free" applications that are nothing more than a link to a functional paid version.
I've got 4.5GB of iPhone Apps that I look forward to transferring to a new iPhone, can Android give me that?
Quote:
Originally Posted by habi
ARGH!!!
You wont here me complaining about copy-paste as a corporate user i think its compulsory and i use it all the time... Just because some ipod user doesnt use it doesnt mean it shouldnt be implemented. We can discuss on how its implemented as its not what I had anticipated it do be. But I have learned how to use it (it wasnt that obvious at first)
And if there were a platform that i could sync my music library with (something decent) then i probably would switch eg android. But the competiton isnt quite there but almost....
Androids media software stinks from anything I have read. If apple doesnt do something about backgrounding in 4.0, then My next phone might not be apple. But if I get some kind of backgrounding (no, not intrested in jailbreaking because of the update hastle) then my 3G would get new life again...
A simple formula - if you don't like it, don't buy it. See how that works??
As a retort, not very well, I'm afraid.
There is one in use case in particular that I am interested in.
Tracking my run through run keeper. When you're busting your balls on a run and you get an SMS or a phone call you have to dismiss the dialog with the correct button. If you miss the button and hit the wrong one, the run keeper gets preempted and your GPS tracking is gone. Thanks iPhone. In fact, this use case does not even need multitasking (in the user app sense of the word). Why not have the OS continue to log GPS data where an app that is shut down was using that part of the framework for a certain period of time. I'm sure the runkeeper guys in the init could pop the queue and fill in the gaps.
I would like to be able to listen to streaming music as well, but if the iPod part could handle music streams that that problem also goes away.
If you really want a geek phone, buy the Droid. It's made for boys like you, with the flaming meteoroids, and other manly references and all. The iPhone is very popular because people can use it without having to go to geeks like you think you are, and asking how to use it.
And why someone has to ask a geek how to use the Droid?
It is a clever solution to extend the API to background server apps (or daemons).
Extending the core facilities of the OS is the right way I think.
But another type of solution to the background app problem is possible.
Unix operating systems use 'nice' and 'renice' to kind of throttle the CPU bandwidth used per thread (or process). Nice and 'renice' isn't working as well as it could - at least on all Unixes (including Linux) I know of - but it is possible to implement real CPU bandwidth throttling.
This is not a trivial kernel extension and it will take time to implement it.
With CPU bandwidth throttling it is easy to restrict all background apps to a maximum of (say) 10% CPU performance. This will guaranty enough cycles will be available for powerful foreground apps and system services, but it will also allow for third party background apps without performance degradation or user management.
Even Apple itself can use the enhanced kernel to achieve better (guaranteed) performance for its own apps and system services.
This kernel enhancement is not easy to do, even for Apple, but it would be a true long term solution to the performance problem in general and the third party background apps in particular.
I wonder why Symbian and Blackberry OS (the 1st and 2nd most popular smartphone platforms) were left off the table.
Talk about cherry picking data.
And let's get real about this "can't handle voice and data simultaneously" BS. That's a limitation of the network, not the OS. Why is it included on a table listing operating systems? It's irrelevant. If we are going down that rather dubious route then why is there no mention of the fact that most GPRS/EDGE networks can't handle voice and data simultaneously either?
So how's the system wide cut and paste on Android coming along?
I noticed that on an HTC Magic that what you can select to cut or copy is extremely limited.
I wonder why Task Killer applications are so popular in the Android Marketplace, there's plenty of fart applications and quite a few "free" applications that are nothing more than a link to a functional paid version.
I've got 4.5GB of iPhone Apps that I look forward to transferring to a new iPhone, can Android give me that?
Im not saying that there is any perfect contender for the iphone right now. If there were I might have switched. What I ment that if someone delivers about what the iphone does now on the platform (appstore excluded) with somekind of backgrounding I have to say that I might switch. Im getting really sick of people that dont need some feature that someone else needs and start shooting them down. If apple isnt doing any real R&D effort on this front (backgrounding 3rd party apps) then Im sorry but the train will eventually catch up. I like my iphone 3G but i would like it just about that 300% more if it would do basically what backgrounder(on jailbreak) but in a more apple-oriented way (and you might even file bugreports on a feature ) I also understand the limits of mobile phone memory and as such am willing to limit backgrounding to 1 app at atime by my choosing. That would be a good compromise and keep alot of people happy, thats my 2 cents anyway.
Apple's products tend to focus on doing what they do better than the competition. With Apple it has never been about products that in a bumbling fashion try to be all things to all people.
I doubt that the vast majority of folks who buy the iPad in the early going are going to be disappointed because the device isn't able to handle absolutely every imaginable scenario. It's success will hinge on how well it performs the tasks that Apple assures us it's meant for.
Based on past experience with this company, I suspect that once these devices are out in the wild, satisfaction with many aspects of the unit will render the whining about relatively minor omissions meaningless.
In time the device's capabilities will expand and if it's critical to have those additional functions - for the majority it will not be - save your money and buy Version 3.
After switching from iPhone to Google's Nexus one, Leo Laport has reported that multitasking in the Android phone results in serious battery drain and and an interference in the basic telephony task. It takes up to 45 minutes to recover from an interrupted call.
After switching from iPhone to Google's Nexus one, Leo Laport has reported that multitasking in the Android phone results in serious battery drain and and an interference in the basic telephony task. It takes up to 45 minutes to recover from an interrupted call.
Can you put a link to that information? Because after using an HTC Hero since August and a Nexus One since January I haven't had any telephony interference or any serious battery drain.
The fact is that in my case the battery lasts more in the Hero and Nexus than in my iPhone 3G
Ok heres my 2c then if we are all chipping in wisdom from the blogosphere.
Why is it ONLY Apples fault that particular apps do not work in the background?, or when a link in an app opens the mail client and this shuts down the main app and then you have to start fresh?
Isnt this just bad coding on the part of the developers?
I mean seriously Apple isnt the only people that are writing code for the iPhone but they seem to be the only ones that are copping the flack due to badly written code on part of the app developers.
Point in case, push notifications. Why is it that some apps work with them brilliantly but then another basic app just cant get them to work right?
Is that Apples fault or the fault of the developer for not being able to code the information in correctly?
Im not saying that Apple are blameless in this whole thing, but lets look at the whole picture before we cast judgement on just one party.
All Apple needs to do is make an exception for "radio apps" that they continue to play unless they the user presses the stop button (only one radio app obviously), an option they turn off by default (the user would have to enable it) so no regular user gets confused and those who want radio are happy. They could go even further too, when someone who's playing a radio app in the background plays the iPod app that radio app would automatically stop playing, i.e. it would Quit. The same would apply to users who press play in an additional radio app, the first one would stop and Quit.
That's a real world iPhone user right there, and that's one that would be happy.
That and better handling of IM and most of the complains users have would dramatically decrease.
Because Apple may ban you now from your iTunes log in if you do. Do some research.
If you can't beat them ban them.
So over the last 3 years where there was no reports of bans for jailbreaking you were running background tasks and whatever you wanted and suddenly when two people who cracked baseband code get banned "allegedly" you get all scared.
I call bull on everything you are writing. Troll 101. You are switching arguements faster than the Pre switches cards.
BTW I have a 3rd party app, from the AppStore which is allowed to multitask and allows any app to interact with it. It's the Tom Tom car kit app.
The iPhone is not without room to grow, yawn, so are your trolling strategies.
Nexus One, oh yeah it's like so perfect, it's so amazing it won't even need an update for like 10 years, actually a friend of mine got one from his grandfather who had it since he was a kid, it's so like amazingly ahead and got everything right you can pass it on when you die
All computing is still baby land, start your rant when they are like hammers and other tools that are still the same in operation after 100 to a 1000 years. Until then, bahhhh
This article could have been written in the 90's period. There is no excuse not to offer Multi Tasking for All Apps.
If this is they path MS Phone 7 chose to take they made a mistake.
60,000 Android devices being shipped each day (that is 60k per day in phone sales that Apple is losing)
Apple and AI don't make excuses for your OS. Every other smart phone has multi tasking and will soon have Flash.
I understand Apples position. I have turned off most of the 'notification' features of my iPhone, and don not miss flash.
I had notifications turned on for a couple apps when 3.0 came out, and it cut my battery life by 66%.
THAT is what unfettered multi-tasking will do. I expect the Win Phone 7 to FLOP. WiMo already has terrible battery life. The always connected, always refreshing mode that they presented in Barcelona won't last 3 hours (my guess) based on current battery technologies.
I expect Flash to come to iPhone. Once it is properly optimized and cleaned up. As for losing 60k phones a day, so what? By your logic, apple is losing out on millions of PC sales a month.
And yet they are the most profitable PC manufacturer, per unit, out there.
With CPU bandwidth throttling it is easy to restrict all background apps to a maximum of (say) 10% CPU performance. This will guaranty enough cycles will be available for powerful foreground apps and system services, but it will also allow for third party background apps without performance degradation or user management.
What happens when that background app is, say, a streaming app (a major reason people want background apps), and throttling it to only 10% CPU effectively makes it useless?
Anyway, looking at history Steve seems to abhor multitasking as much as he abhors buttons.
Unless it becomes a major competitive issue, I wouldn't be too anxious to see background apps anytime soon.
There is one in use case in particular that I am interested in.
Tracking my run through run keeper. When you're busting your balls on a run and you get an SMS or a phone call you have to dismiss the dialog with the correct button. If you miss the button and hit the wrong one, the run keeper gets preempted and your GPS tracking is gone. Thanks iPhone. In fact, this use case does not even need multitasking (in the user app sense of the word). Why not have the OS continue to log GPS data where an app that is shut down was using that part of the framework for a certain period of time. I'm sure the runkeeper guys in the init could pop the queue and fill in the gaps.
I would like to be able to listen to streaming music as well, but if the iPod part could handle music streams that that problem also goes away.
If you're busting your balls on a run, responding to an SMS or phone call seems the wrong priority. Don't bother with any explanations.
Wow, there are so many "children" who hang out in the comments section on AppleInsider. It's just amazing.
They're children posing as smart people, but just demonstrating they can't sort out the complex world they supposedly work in. It's a testament to the complexity of the Information Age, and the fact that people just don't think about the need to "study a subject before commenting."
The author of this article has done his homework, and the children who hang out in the comments section should be good students and do the same.
Comments
This article could have been written in the 90's period. There is no excuse not to offer Multi Tasking for All Apps.
If this is they path MS Phone 7 chose to take they made a mistake.
60,000 Android devices being shipped each day (that is 60k per day in phone sales that Apple is losing)
That was the quote of the week that AI chose to not post.
It took a few days for BoyGenius (BoyDumbass) to report. It was made at the MWC this last week.
http://www.boygeniusreport.com/2010/...pped-each-day/
Google has multi tasking and Flash 10.1 on at least one shipping phone.
There is an entire world outside of AT&T and Google has decided to give them the opportunity of experiencing true unlimited multi tasking.
Mobile phone chip sets are more than capable of running multiple tasks (other than decided by Apple).
You don't need to Jail Break your iPhone to experience it.
I don't need 140k apps. I want a phone that can run web apps (HTML5) and for now Flash.
Apple and AI don't make excuses for your OS. Every other smart phone has multi tasking and will soon have Flash.
A simple formula - if you don't like it, don't buy it. See how that works??
As far as your soccer mom reference goes, it's not really fair. If you think you're a superior human being because you know a little computerize, that's great for you! But most of the world doesn't care for it, or your claiming that superiority. If you really want a geek phone, buy the Droid. It's made for boys like you, with the flaming meteoroids, and other manly references and all. The iPhone is very popular because people can use it without having to go to geeks like you think you are, and asking how to use it.
Netbooks have nothing to do with this argument.
No I think it was a valid reference and not condending. I don't think I'm superior because of my tech skills and most of friends are actually non-techies. But there is irony of tech savvy people on this forum who eagerly hail even the smallest improvement in the iPhone who then say it doesn't need something as useful as multitasking.
I'm not interested in any of that crap you mentioned. I love my iPhone 3G and my MBP unibody. If Apple made a mid range tower, I'd buy it in a second. But I can't help but notice all the Orwellian doublethink that goes on among Mac fans and I point it out. Two years ago these people were saying Apple didn't need to allow third party apps, now they celebrate the app store as the defining feature. As for your condescending remarks - you spend all day on a computer forum, reading every post and replying at length. Nuff said. Some of us have a life.
I noticed that on an HTC Magic that what you can select to cut or copy is extremely limited.
I wonder why Task Killer applications are so popular in the Android Marketplace, there's plenty of fart applications and quite a few "free" applications that are nothing more than a link to a functional paid version.
I've got 4.5GB of iPhone Apps that I look forward to transferring to a new iPhone, can Android give me that?
ARGH!!!
You wont here me complaining about copy-paste as a corporate user i think its compulsory and i use it all the time... Just because some ipod user doesnt use it doesnt mean it shouldnt be implemented. We can discuss on how its implemented as its not what I had anticipated it do be. But I have learned how to use it (it wasnt that obvious at first)
And if there were a platform that i could sync my music library with (something decent) then i probably would switch eg android. But the competiton isnt quite there but almost....
Androids media software stinks from anything I have read. If apple doesnt do something about backgrounding in 4.0, then My next phone might not be apple. But if I get some kind of backgrounding (no, not intrested in jailbreaking because of the update hastle) then my 3G would get new life again...
A simple formula - if you don't like it, don't buy it. See how that works??
As a retort, not very well, I'm afraid.
There is one in use case in particular that I am interested in.
Tracking my run through run keeper. When you're busting your balls on a run and you get an SMS or a phone call you have to dismiss the dialog with the correct button. If you miss the button and hit the wrong one, the run keeper gets preempted and your GPS tracking is gone. Thanks iPhone. In fact, this use case does not even need multitasking (in the user app sense of the word). Why not have the OS continue to log GPS data where an app that is shut down was using that part of the framework for a certain period of time. I'm sure the runkeeper guys in the init could pop the queue and fill in the gaps.
I would like to be able to listen to streaming music as well, but if the iPod part could handle music streams that that problem also goes away.
If you really want a geek phone, buy the Droid. It's made for boys like you, with the flaming meteoroids, and other manly references and all. The iPhone is very popular because people can use it without having to go to geeks like you think you are, and asking how to use it.
And why someone has to ask a geek how to use the Droid?
Extending the core facilities of the OS is the right way I think.
But another type of solution to the background app problem is possible.
Unix operating systems use 'nice' and 'renice' to kind of throttle the CPU bandwidth used per thread (or process). Nice and 'renice' isn't working as well as it could - at least on all Unixes (including Linux) I know of - but it is possible to implement real CPU bandwidth throttling.
This is not a trivial kernel extension and it will take time to implement it.
With CPU bandwidth throttling it is easy to restrict all background apps to a maximum of (say) 10% CPU performance. This will guaranty enough cycles will be available for powerful foreground apps and system services, but it will also allow for third party background apps without performance degradation or user management.
Even Apple itself can use the enhanced kernel to achieve better (guaranteed) performance for its own apps and system services.
This kernel enhancement is not easy to do, even for Apple, but it would be a true long term solution to the performance problem in general and the third party background apps in particular.
J.
http://db.tidbits.com/article/10989
Talk about cherry picking data.
And let's get real about this "can't handle voice and data simultaneously" BS. That's a limitation of the network, not the OS. Why is it included on a table listing operating systems? It's irrelevant. If we are going down that rather dubious route then why is there no mention of the fact that most GPRS/EDGE networks can't handle voice and data simultaneously either?
So how's the system wide cut and paste on Android coming along?
I noticed that on an HTC Magic that what you can select to cut or copy is extremely limited.
I wonder why Task Killer applications are so popular in the Android Marketplace, there's plenty of fart applications and quite a few "free" applications that are nothing more than a link to a functional paid version.
I've got 4.5GB of iPhone Apps that I look forward to transferring to a new iPhone, can Android give me that?
Im not saying that there is any perfect contender for the iphone right now. If there were I might have switched. What I ment that if someone delivers about what the iphone does now on the platform (appstore excluded) with somekind of backgrounding I have to say that I might switch. Im getting really sick of people that dont need some feature that someone else needs and start shooting them down. If apple isnt doing any real R&D effort on this front (backgrounding 3rd party apps) then Im sorry but the train will eventually catch up. I like my iphone 3G but i would like it just about that 300% more if it would do basically what backgrounder(on jailbreak) but in a more apple-oriented way (and you might even file bugreports on a feature
I doubt that the vast majority of folks who buy the iPad in the early going are going to be disappointed because the device isn't able to handle absolutely every imaginable scenario. It's success will hinge on how well it performs the tasks that Apple assures us it's meant for.
Based on past experience with this company, I suspect that once these devices are out in the wild, satisfaction with many aspects of the unit will render the whining about relatively minor omissions meaningless.
In time the device's capabilities will expand and if it's critical to have those additional functions - for the majority it will not be - save your money and buy Version 3.
After switching from iPhone to Google's Nexus one, Leo Laport has reported that multitasking in the Android phone results in serious battery drain and and an interference in the basic telephony task. It takes up to 45 minutes to recover from an interrupted call.
Can you put a link to that information? Because after using an HTC Hero since August and a Nexus One since January I haven't had any telephony interference or any serious battery drain.
The fact is that in my case the battery lasts more in the Hero and Nexus than in my iPhone 3G
... thats my 2 cents anyway.
Ok heres my 2c then if we are all chipping in wisdom from the blogosphere.
Why is it ONLY Apples fault that particular apps do not work in the background?, or when a link in an app opens the mail client and this shuts down the main app and then you have to start fresh?
Isnt this just bad coding on the part of the developers?
I mean seriously Apple isnt the only people that are writing code for the iPhone but they seem to be the only ones that are copping the flack due to badly written code on part of the app developers.
Point in case, push notifications. Why is it that some apps work with them brilliantly but then another basic app just cant get them to work right?
Is that Apples fault or the fault of the developer for not being able to code the information in correctly?
Im not saying that Apple are blameless in this whole thing, but lets look at the whole picture before we cast judgement on just one party.
That's a real world iPhone user right there, and that's one that would be happy.
That and better handling of IM and most of the complains users have would dramatically decrease.
Because Apple may ban you now from your iTunes log in if you do. Do some research.
If you can't beat them ban them.
So over the last 3 years where there was no reports of bans for jailbreaking you were running background tasks and whatever you wanted and suddenly when two people who cracked baseband code get banned "allegedly" you get all scared.
I call bull on everything you are writing. Troll 101. You are switching arguements faster than the Pre switches cards.
BTW I have a 3rd party app, from the AppStore which is allowed to multitask and allows any app to interact with it. It's the Tom Tom car kit app.
The iPhone is not without room to grow, yawn, so are your trolling strategies.
Nexus One, oh yeah it's like so perfect, it's so amazing it won't even need an update for like 10 years, actually a friend of mine got one from his grandfather who had it since he was a kid, it's so like amazingly ahead and got everything right you can pass it on when you die
All computing is still baby land, start your rant when they are like hammers and other tools that are still the same in operation after 100 to a 1000 years. Until then, bahhhh
This article could have been written in the 90's period. There is no excuse not to offer Multi Tasking for All Apps.
If this is they path MS Phone 7 chose to take they made a mistake.
60,000 Android devices being shipped each day (that is 60k per day in phone sales that Apple is losing)
Apple and AI don't make excuses for your OS. Every other smart phone has multi tasking and will soon have Flash.
I understand Apples position. I have turned off most of the 'notification' features of my iPhone, and don not miss flash.
I had notifications turned on for a couple apps when 3.0 came out, and it cut my battery life by 66%.
THAT is what unfettered multi-tasking will do. I expect the Win Phone 7 to FLOP. WiMo already has terrible battery life. The always connected, always refreshing mode that they presented in Barcelona won't last 3 hours (my guess) based on current battery technologies.
I expect Flash to come to iPhone. Once it is properly optimized and cleaned up. As for losing 60k phones a day, so what? By your logic, apple is losing out on millions of PC sales a month.
And yet they are the most profitable PC manufacturer, per unit, out there.
With CPU bandwidth throttling it is easy to restrict all background apps to a maximum of (say) 10% CPU performance. This will guaranty enough cycles will be available for powerful foreground apps and system services, but it will also allow for third party background apps without performance degradation or user management.
What happens when that background app is, say, a streaming app (a major reason people want background apps), and throttling it to only 10% CPU effectively makes it useless?
Anyway, looking at history Steve seems to abhor multitasking as much as he abhors buttons.
Unless it becomes a major competitive issue, I wouldn't be too anxious to see background apps anytime soon.
As a retort, not very well, I'm afraid.
There is one in use case in particular that I am interested in.
Tracking my run through run keeper. When you're busting your balls on a run and you get an SMS or a phone call you have to dismiss the dialog with the correct button. If you miss the button and hit the wrong one, the run keeper gets preempted and your GPS tracking is gone. Thanks iPhone. In fact, this use case does not even need multitasking (in the user app sense of the word). Why not have the OS continue to log GPS data where an app that is shut down was using that part of the framework for a certain period of time. I'm sure the runkeeper guys in the init could pop the queue and fill in the gaps.
I would like to be able to listen to streaming music as well, but if the iPod part could handle music streams that that problem also goes away.
If you're busting your balls on a run, responding to an SMS or phone call seems the wrong priority. Don't bother with any explanations.
Wow, there are so many "children" who hang out in the comments section on AppleInsider. It's just amazing.
They're children posing as smart people, but just demonstrating they can't sort out the complex world they supposedly work in. It's a testament to the complexity of the Information Age, and the fact that people just don't think about the need to "study a subject before commenting."
The author of this article has done his homework, and the children who hang out in the comments section should be good students and do the same.