ok well 20 apps might lead you to memory issues. Actually, I have to admit, that on my TP2 when I have too many apps open, it automatically closes apps on it's own to make room for new apps I open.
I think I can get away with running about 10 quality apps (like web browser, messenger, morphgear, midomi, coreplayer, google maps, album, bing, facebook) before I notice apps being closed on their own.
There IS a limit :P
But the normal shouldn't need to be exposed to all this. They shouldn't need to wonder why an app they were running in the background is no longer running in the background or why they can't run 20 or 30 or 40 apps that may open in a day slow down their system and have the battery last for 3 hours in their pocket before shutting off. People expect it to work and they expect Apple to think about these issues ahead of time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacKirk
Apple is obsessed with usability. The information in the article concerning multi-taksing was, at best, informed speculation. The information in the article concerning the reasons why multi-tasking has not been included to date was not. Let's review:
- iPhone 3.x software is a fully preemptive multitasking operating system, but it artificially restricts apps
- The iPhone OS is intended to create mobile devices that are easy to use
- One reason why the iPhone and iPod touch are emerging as a successful mobile games platform is due to the fact that the iPhone OS? one-app model means that games can be more complex and sophisticated and yet still perform well on a mobile device
- (the current OS) erases any real potential for spyware, adware and viruses
- (the downside of all this is) apps begging for background execution like Pandora, instant messaging features and Loopt or Google Latitude are not available without multitasking
Apple likes to do things right and not on our timetable. It's still hard for me to fathom about how long it took them to bring out cut and paste on the iPhone. Assuming Apple is working on multi-tasking, I'm sure they are attempting to do it in a way that does not compromise the advantages their OS currently enjoys. As always, the devil's in the details. Fortunately, if there is one thing that Apple has shown an ability to do, it's to sweat the details.
Like all of you, I look forward to multitasking. But not at the cost of security, power or ease of use.
Great first post. Welcome to AI, MacKirk.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
Nope. Double-click the Home Button is reserved for iPod functionality. At least on my iPhone. They'll need to use something else.
In Settings » General » Home you can change the result for the double-click. I have mine set to Camera as it's the fastest way to get to the camera when you need it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster
Ok so just to make sure I'm not imagining things, I've fired up 10 apps:
Album, Bing, Coreplayer, Facebook, Opera 9.5, Google Maps, Midomi, Morphgear, Resco Explorer, and Windows Live messenger.
So far I'm running at 88% memory usage, and I do notice the task manager takes a little bit longer to show me what's open, but other than that the phone is running fine. Normally at the end of a work day with normal usage (MS push email on for work email) I have about 80% battery life left. I'll leave these open today and let you know if it's significantly lower.
I've been using Backgrounder since it came out yet even with just the iPod app, Mail and Safari all working at once I can still get momentary pauses and Safari restarts. You start adding apps, especially memory intensive apps that aren't built around a background aware API and you start to get to serious issues. The only way this will work is for a smart solution to be implemented, which is why Backgrounder and the methods used by Android and WebOS will not be used to implement background apps.
Do you really think that folks currently buying iPhones are not in their right minds? I would disagree. The hardware is great, and the software will be better soon.
So you think that the loss of momentum is due primarily to Apple's slow progress made in catching up with the competition? That may be correct; I don't know.
Apologies in advance, but...
Your meandering posts remind me of a program on the old Apple ][. I think it was called Liza (or some such). It was an attempt to perform amateur psychoanalysis.
You would start it up and it would ask you a question, starting a dialog such as:
Liza: How are you?
you: fine
Liza: Have you ever felt better:
you; sure
Liza: Why don't you fell as well now?
you: I didn't say that
Liza: What did you say?
you: I said I've felt better.
Liza: why have you felt better?
you: I don't know:
Liza: Why don't you fell as well now?
.....
Ad nauseam... with circular logic, apparently reading (and understanding) responses, but stubbornly plowing ahead with evasive conversation that really had no meaning.
In other words, you are trolling. Trolling defined as looking to create an argument on a forum just for the sake of igniting an argument.
No. I like to make folks think different. I like to challenge them to do so, in an attempt to divine truth.
The argument is an efficient means to an end, and not the goal. The goal is to see what new ideas can be discovered.
But I will freely admit that I chortle when folks dispute the meanings of words, rather than admitting the truth of an underlying idea. That is something I've not encountered elsewhere.
Everyone needs to consider the world vs US when talking about marketshare. Many blogs throw up graphs without considering whether it's NPD research channels or quarterlies or whatever.
For instance in this past Christmas season (recognized within Q1 for Apple) the number of iPhones activated in the US actually dropped by ~100,000 over Christmas 2008 sales.
BUT
even though US sales dropped off a bit, worldwide iPhone sales exploded 101% year over year for Q1.
And even then, marketshare being stagnant, whether in the US or even in the world, can still mean that the App Store/iPhone OS ecosystem (however you want to think about it) just grew by 20 or even 400 million more devices. All the players in the pie chart are skyrocketing - marketshare doesn't mean the platform is weakening in any way.
Please remember high school arithmetic when reading.
Go into the "Multi-app view mode", Tap and Hold on a given app, wait for the little round "x" icon to appear on the top left of the app. Tap the "x" to remove it. Just like how you remove apps from the phone.
# a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
# inactivity of liquids; being stagnant; standing still; without current or circulation
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Yeah - that's pretty much what I thought stagnation meant.
Do you disagree with this dictionary definition? Is there a better way to describe the "standing still" of iOS market share? The example that they gave of 'economic growth of less than 1%" seems exactly analogous to the current state of the iPhone. Where have I gone wrong?
using your own statements....
you are trying to compare MARKET SHARE with ECONOMIC GROWTH...they are not the same....do you COMPREHEND THAT?
so quit grasping at straws strawman and trying to come off intellectual when you can not clearly comprehend definitions you are trying to use to defend your poor arguments
You would be opening denying reality if you tried to argue APPLE has not had 1% of economic growth...
I like to challenge entrenched beliefs because they are so often inaccurate.
By playing word games? What does the 'stagnation' of the iphone marketshare have to do with the topic at hand, other than to afford you some measure of amusement?
Having a dictionary firmly planted in your posterior is a poor way of inciting intellectual discussion. All it does is make you seem pedantic.
No. I like to make folks think different. I like to challenge them to do so, in an attempt to divine truth.
The argument is an efficient means to an end, and not the goal. The goal is to see what new ideas can be discovered.
But I will freely admit that I chortle when folks dispute the meanings of words, rather than admitting the truth of an underlying idea. That is something I've not encountered elsewhere.
There are many pleasures in this forum.
That sounds like a confession to me. I've reported you for trolling I suggest other do the same. Lets get the thread back on topic.
Apple can release a new product. Their marketshare will surge, then plateau.
THIS IS NORMAL!
Absolutely correct. I just wish people would stop replying to iGenius (though I've been guilty on occasion). The problem is that he mixes in some sensible ideas from time to time, so you think you might be able to have a rational discussion with him. Don't take the bait.
Onto multitasking, I hope it isn't a blanket implementation. At the very least, I want a slider beside each app on the options page to indicate the behavior of that app when you hit the home button. Ideally there would be three options: close, save state, and run in the background.
Hopefully we get multitasking and widgets. Some things don't need to have a full screen app running all the time, like internet radio, and a widget would suffice. I'd love to see Dashboard and Expose on the iPhone and especially the iPad, if implemented properly. I think configurable gestures reserved for OS functions could help in that department (three finger swipe to Expose as an example).
Dashboard, Expose and multitouch gestures are what I'd like to see come from the Mac to the iPhone. I also can't wait to see the scrambling by iPad bashers if a multitasking iPhone OS is previewed before the iPad even launches (although it still wouldn't multitask until the summer at the earliest, so I can guess what they will say, but it wouldn't change the fact that they were incredibly shortsighted).
# a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
# inactivity of liquids; being stagnant; standing still; without current or circulation
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Yeah - that's pretty much what I thought stagnation meant.
Do you disagree with this dictionary definition? Is there a better way to describe the "standing still" of iOS market share? The example that they gave of 'economic growth of less than 1%" seems exactly analogous to the current state of the iPhone. Where have I gone wrong?
Key words "1% per year" Do you notice the per year?
Technically, Apple has one phone. Look at how many different models RIM and Android have.
Be careful not to compress the product line too conveniently. There are two major iPhone models sold right now. Not only that, it's not just two iOS device models currently being sold, but three, and soon, four. iPhone 3G, 3GS, iPod Touch, iPad. They might have a lot in common, but there's quite a bit of hardware difference between the four major models, and I'm leaving out the flash memory chip differences. The 3G data radio in the iPad might count as a fifth variation, you might not be able to program an app to expect an always available data connection. Then developers might ask themselves how far back they can support, because there's the original iPhone, and the first and second generation iPod Touch models, which may or may not work for a task, depending on what the application needs for hardware features and performance.
So does that mean I will now only get 5 hrs of battery life on my iPad?
Not likely. Designing the implementation around new APIs and guidelines that limit the performance hit and power usage seems likely for this to work. I'd also expect the number of background apps that can run concurrently to be limited.
Comments
That's a bunch of hooey.
Those graphs show one month compared to another month.
They are totally misleading since each handset maker introduces
new models and or has promotions at different times of the year.
The graphs one should look at are year to year comparisons
consistent across years by month.
Then and only then can you get a clear picture of trend.
Quarter to quarter is garbage.
Pick May to September and see how it paints a picture
totally flattering for Apple and makes RIM and or Android look
like losers.
Interesting. Yeah - these snapshots are unreliable to discern trends.
ok well 20 apps might lead you to memory issues. Actually, I have to admit, that on my TP2 when I have too many apps open, it automatically closes apps on it's own to make room for new apps I open.
I think I can get away with running about 10 quality apps (like web browser, messenger, morphgear, midomi, coreplayer, google maps, album, bing, facebook) before I notice apps being closed on their own.
There IS a limit :P
But the normal shouldn't need to be exposed to all this. They shouldn't need to wonder why an app they were running in the background is no longer running in the background or why they can't run 20 or 30 or 40 apps that may open in a day slow down their system and have the battery last for 3 hours in their pocket before shutting off. People expect it to work and they expect Apple to think about these issues ahead of time.
Apple is obsessed with usability. The information in the article concerning multi-taksing was, at best, informed speculation. The information in the article concerning the reasons why multi-tasking has not been included to date was not. Let's review:
- iPhone 3.x software is a fully preemptive multitasking operating system, but it artificially restricts apps
- The iPhone OS is intended to create mobile devices that are easy to use
- One reason why the iPhone and iPod touch are emerging as a successful mobile games platform is due to the fact that the iPhone OS? one-app model means that games can be more complex and sophisticated and yet still perform well on a mobile device
- (the current OS) erases any real potential for spyware, adware and viruses
- (the downside of all this is) apps begging for background execution like Pandora, instant messaging features and Loopt or Google Latitude are not available without multitasking
Apple likes to do things right and not on our timetable. It's still hard for me to fathom about how long it took them to bring out cut and paste on the iPhone. Assuming Apple is working on multi-tasking, I'm sure they are attempting to do it in a way that does not compromise the advantages their OS currently enjoys. As always, the devil's in the details. Fortunately, if there is one thing that Apple has shown an ability to do, it's to sweat the details.
Like all of you, I look forward to multitasking. But not at the cost of security, power or ease of use.
Great first post. Welcome to AI, MacKirk.
Nope. Double-click the Home Button is reserved for iPod functionality. At least on my iPhone. They'll need to use something else.
In Settings » General » Home you can change the result for the double-click. I have mine set to Camera as it's the fastest way to get to the camera when you need it.
Ok so just to make sure I'm not imagining things, I've fired up 10 apps:
Album, Bing, Coreplayer, Facebook, Opera 9.5, Google Maps, Midomi, Morphgear, Resco Explorer, and Windows Live messenger.
So far I'm running at 88% memory usage, and I do notice the task manager takes a little bit longer to show me what's open, but other than that the phone is running fine. Normally at the end of a work day with normal usage (MS push email on for work email) I have about 80% battery life left. I'll leave these open today and let you know if it's significantly lower.
I've been using Backgrounder since it came out yet even with just the iPod app, Mail and Safari all working at once I can still get momentary pauses and Safari restarts. You start adding apps, especially memory intensive apps that aren't built around a background aware API and you start to get to serious issues. The only way this will work is for a smart solution to be implemented, which is why Backgrounder and the methods used by Android and WebOS will not be used to implement background apps.
Do you really think that folks currently buying iPhones are not in their right minds? I would disagree. The hardware is great, and the software will be better soon.
So you think that the loss of momentum is due primarily to Apple's slow progress made in catching up with the competition? That may be correct; I don't know.
Apologies in advance, but...
Your meandering posts remind me of a program on the old Apple ][. I think it was called Liza (or some such). It was an attempt to perform amateur psychoanalysis.
You would start it up and it would ask you a question, starting a dialog such as:
Liza: How are you?
you: fine
Liza: Have you ever felt better:
you; sure
Liza: Why don't you fell as well now?
you: I didn't say that
Liza: What did you say?
you: I said I've felt better.
Liza: why have you felt better?
you: I don't know:
Liza: Why don't you fell as well now?
.....
Ad nauseam... with circular logic, apparently reading (and understanding) responses, but stubbornly plowing ahead with evasive conversation that really had no meaning.
*
In other words, you are trolling. Trolling defined as looking to create an argument on a forum just for the sake of igniting an argument.
No. I like to make folks think different. I like to challenge them to do so, in an attempt to divine truth.
The argument is an efficient means to an end, and not the goal. The goal is to see what new ideas can be discovered.
But I will freely admit that I chortle when folks dispute the meanings of words, rather than admitting the truth of an underlying idea. That is something I've not encountered elsewhere.
There are many pleasures in this forum.
For instance in this past Christmas season (recognized within Q1 for Apple) the number of iPhones activated in the US actually dropped by ~100,000 over Christmas 2008 sales.
BUT
even though US sales dropped off a bit, worldwide iPhone sales exploded 101% year over year for Q1.
And even then, marketshare being stagnant, whether in the US or even in the world, can still mean that the App Store/iPhone OS ecosystem (however you want to think about it) just grew by 20 or even 400 million more devices. All the players in the pie chart are skyrocketing - marketshare doesn't mean the platform is weakening in any way.
Please remember high school arithmetic when reading.
I sincerely think he's here to converse with people and trigger a lively discussion.
Yep. And the means I use seem to work well. I like to challenge entrenched beliefs.
Yep. And the means I use seem to work well. I like to challenge entrenched beliefs.
Why is that? To what end?
How do you close an App?
Go into the "Multi-app view mode", Tap and Hold on a given app, wait for the little round "x" icon to appear on the top left of the app. Tap the "x" to remove it. Just like how you remove apps from the phone.
Why is that? To what end?
I like to challenge entrenched beliefs because they are so often inaccurate.
Well, maybe not. Let me check:
# a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
# inactivity of liquids; being stagnant; standing still; without current or circulation
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Yeah - that's pretty much what I thought stagnation meant.
Do you disagree with this dictionary definition? Is there a better way to describe the "standing still" of iOS market share? The example that they gave of 'economic growth of less than 1%" seems exactly analogous to the current state of the iPhone. Where have I gone wrong?
using your own statements....
you are trying to compare MARKET SHARE with ECONOMIC GROWTH...they are not the same....do you COMPREHEND THAT?
so quit grasping at straws strawman and trying to come off intellectual when you can not clearly comprehend definitions you are trying to use to defend your poor arguments
You would be opening denying reality if you tried to argue APPLE has not had 1% of economic growth...
I like to challenge entrenched beliefs because they are so often inaccurate.
By playing word games? What does the 'stagnation' of the iphone marketshare have to do with the topic at hand, other than to afford you some measure of amusement?
Having a dictionary firmly planted in your posterior is a poor way of inciting intellectual discussion. All it does is make you seem pedantic.
So does that mean I will now only get 5 hrs of battery life on my iPad?
All this worry about market share. Why bother?
1. Apple is not out to get any % of market share.
Yes they are, otherwise they wouldn't have so many iphone commercials on tv. I've never seen so many commercials for a phone in my life.
No. I like to make folks think different. I like to challenge them to do so, in an attempt to divine truth.
The argument is an efficient means to an end, and not the goal. The goal is to see what new ideas can be discovered.
But I will freely admit that I chortle when folks dispute the meanings of words, rather than admitting the truth of an underlying idea. That is something I've not encountered elsewhere.
There are many pleasures in this forum.
That sounds like a confession to me. I've reported you for trolling I suggest other do the same. Lets get the thread back on topic.
Apple can release a new product. Their marketshare will surge, then plateau.
THIS IS NORMAL!
Absolutely correct. I just wish people would stop replying to iGenius (though I've been guilty on occasion). The problem is that he mixes in some sensible ideas from time to time, so you think you might be able to have a rational discussion with him. Don't take the bait.
Onto multitasking, I hope it isn't a blanket implementation. At the very least, I want a slider beside each app on the options page to indicate the behavior of that app when you hit the home button. Ideally there would be three options: close, save state, and run in the background.
Hopefully we get multitasking and widgets. Some things don't need to have a full screen app running all the time, like internet radio, and a widget would suffice. I'd love to see Dashboard and Expose on the iPhone and especially the iPad, if implemented properly. I think configurable gestures reserved for OS functions could help in that department (three finger swipe to Expose as an example).
Dashboard, Expose and multitouch gestures are what I'd like to see come from the Mac to the iPhone. I also can't wait to see the scrambling by iPad bashers if a multitasking iPhone OS is previewed before the iPad even launches (although it still wouldn't multitask until the summer at the earliest, so I can guess what they will say, but it wouldn't change the fact that they were incredibly shortsighted).
I come here because this forum presents very interesting ideas.
Yes, and unfortunately none of which come from you.
Well, maybe not. Let me check:
# a state of inactivity (in business or art etc); "economic growth of less than 1% per year is considered to be economic stagnation"
# inactivity of liquids; being stagnant; standing still; without current or circulation
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
Yeah - that's pretty much what I thought stagnation meant.
Do you disagree with this dictionary definition? Is there a better way to describe the "standing still" of iOS market share? The example that they gave of 'economic growth of less than 1%" seems exactly analogous to the current state of the iPhone. Where have I gone wrong?
Key words "1% per year" Do you notice the per year?
Technically, Apple has one phone. Look at how many different models RIM and Android have.
Be careful not to compress the product line too conveniently. There are two major iPhone models sold right now. Not only that, it's not just two iOS device models currently being sold, but three, and soon, four. iPhone 3G, 3GS, iPod Touch, iPad. They might have a lot in common, but there's quite a bit of hardware difference between the four major models, and I'm leaving out the flash memory chip differences. The 3G data radio in the iPad might count as a fifth variation, you might not be able to program an app to expect an always available data connection. Then developers might ask themselves how far back they can support, because there's the original iPhone, and the first and second generation iPod Touch models, which may or may not work for a task, depending on what the application needs for hardware features and performance.
Back on topic...
So does that mean I will now only get 5 hrs of battery life on my iPad?
Not likely. Designing the implementation around new APIs and guidelines that limit the performance hit and power usage seems likely for this to work. I'd also expect the number of background apps that can run concurrently to be limited.