Or Compaq and DEC merging... or Oracle and SUN merging... Lots of more significant examples...
Speaking of SUN... who is Apple going to acquire for a new filesystem? Their ZFS plans got screwed and Apple didn't even put up a fight... they must have something planned...
None of those are good examples.
This would be closer to Hp buying Intel. I'm not so sure that would go over big.
Adobe doesn't license technology. The problem with acquiring Adobe is they have way too much debt to pay off. There is a reason their products are so expensive. They are still struggling to pay off the Macromedia debt. If Apple wanted to get in that space, they would probably make competing products in secret over the next few years and release them for a fraction of the cost to encourage people to switch. They are already part way there with Quartz and Core Image. Since most of the features could be factored in to their core frameworks, they would only need like three guys working in secret.
Apple has no incentive to prevent other companies from licensing ARM technology.
If you believe that you've been listening to the Tech Press. iTunes, the iPod, iPhone and other technologies (Mobileme) should tell you that Apple is no longer solely focused on pushing the Mac platform.
They have no problems delivering products that work with competitors (Exchange sync), MS Office file format export and more.
It's absurd to think that suddenly Apple's going to spend 8 billion dollars and tell 3rd parties they no longer have access to a license.
There's no downside to providing the IP to everyone willing to pay because what's going to differentiate these cores are the custom elements that external designers will put in. Apple gets a little cut of every device out there for the task of designing the building blocks.
Apple has never made an acquisition of this size in their history so none of us knows how they manage things but I'm just not seeing a lot of cruft coming from an ARM purchase.
If Apple buys Adobe they have to deal with cross platform tools for deploying on windows. They don't have that to worry about with ARM to the same extent.
Considering that most of the industry uses these designs, that wouldn't be sustainable.
You know, just because we're Apple users doesn't mean that we can think that anything that Apple MAY do would be ok. If another company did that to Apple, you would be among the first up and screaming about how unfair it is.
Why wouldn't it be ok?
If Apple cut off its competitors, it isn't like they are hindering their competitors from acquiring chips from other manufactures using different core designs.
Intel has no play here. Atom isn't a mobile phone architecture and won't be for a while. Apple can print money here.
Intel were showing off their new mobile platform at CES back in January. It's based off the second generation "pine view" atom chips and is up to 50x more power efficient than their previous attempt. It is supposed to have very similar power levels to the ARM Cortex-A9 but with superior performance.
This would be closer to Hp buying Intel. I'm not so sure that would go over big.
If that ever happens... time to buy a lot of AMD stock. I'm not sure that Apple buying ARM would be that big of a deal to competitors though. Apple is pretty much the only company with significant interest in the instruction set. Other companies using the instruction set are either embedded and could recompile their code or are using Java and could run on other platforms. Apple would need to get all their developers to recompile, which isn't the end of the world, but would be a big deal. By the time their competitors were ready to upgrade something else would have come out. Either Intel will have better performance per watt or PPC will make a comeback. With the path some of these other devices are following PPC may make more sense anyway. It allows for faster code execution by sacrificing execution unit density. With ARM you can either go massively parallel or you can tack on lots of extra special purpose hardware.
Apple needs to remember what business it is in... What it excels at!
I have no doubt that Apple will-- if Apple were to buy ARM, it would be to advance Apple products, not to lock out others or to squelch competition... They don't believe that they have any real competition at what they choose to do.
However, they are savvy enough not to let others put them at a competitive disadvantage by constricting their access to technology...
Apple is in the business of building high quality computer equipment and so doing as much of it in house makes this even easier to achieve.
Apple's not going to switch focus to chip building it's still going to be ARM doing all of the chip work just like it's still PA Semi designing their custom chips so all along Apple is only going to be concentrating on Apple computing products it just means they would have higher priority on the chips than everyone else.
Actually I just had another thought about this and it is nothing short of win win for the entire mobile industry.
What is Apple really good at? Design. Apple designs their own boards and so is pretty clued up in getting the most out of current technologies.
But what if Apple was in a position to further advance the current technology creating their own road maps? By owning ARM Apple could design awesome processors and move the technology beyond current thinking via PA Semi and license that technology to the rest of the industry through ARM using ARM's pulling power to get them built easily without having to rely on other manufacturers to design and build in such a way that fits Apple's plans.
The offshoot being that now the entire mobile industry would have this amazing technology and further advance today's technology into the future.
Apple would lead but the followers would be using top end chipsets.
Adobe doesn't license technology. The problem with acquiring Adobe is they have way too much debt to pay off. There is a reason their products are so expensive. They are still struggling to pay off the Macromedia debt. If Apple wanted to get in that space, they would probably make competing products in secret over the next few years and release them for a fraction of the cost to encourage people to switch. They are already part way there with Quartz and Core Image. Since most of the features could be factored in to their core frameworks, they would only need like three guys working in secret.
What I meant was that Adobe's customers are mostly non Apple. Buying them would result in Apple selling large amounts of Windows software. Discontinuing most of it would cause an uproar.
Adobe's prices aren't higher now than they were before Macromedia's purchase. Adobe doesn't license software for others to mod and sell, but every time you buy some, you are licensing it.
If Apple cut off its competitors, it isn't like they are hindering their competitors from acquiring chips from other manufactures using different core designs.
Business is business, it is not good or bad.
When the majority of companies rely n a particular product, and you say they can't buy it anymore, thats a major disruption to their business.
You think they can just go anywhere? How would they do that? If they wanted to buy a chip that wasn't an ARM design but that was compatible with their OS, where would they go?
There is currently nowhere for them to go.
This could be construed as Apple intentionally destroying their businesses. You can't do that. Apple would be sued up the whazoo. And that's assuming that governments would even allow it..
I'm not sure that Apple buying ARM would be that big of a deal to competitors though. Apple is pretty much the only company with significant interest in the instruction set.
It would be a huge deal to Apple's competitors in mobile, routers, the nascent smartbook market and its non-competitors across the whole embedded sector. ARM doesn't just supply Apple: they are the most widely-used 32-bit architecture in the world. I doubt this trader's claim that Apple are their biggest customer. Their business model that underpins their development programme is based on high volumes and wide licensing.
In short, a ridiculous rumour. Neither Apple nor ARM need this extreme form of vertical integration. It would be bad for both companies and for the market as a whole. If the shareholders of each did not prevent it as best as they could, the regulators surely will. Even Apple enthusiasts should see the utter folly of the company distracting itself from its core competencies in this way.
What I meant was that Adobe's customers are mostly non Apple. Buying them would result in Apple selling large amounts of Windows software. Discontinuing most of it would cause an uproar.
Adobe's prices aren't higher now than they were before Macromedia's purchase. Adobe doesn't license software for others to mod and sell, but every time you buy some, you are licensing it.
If Apple discontinued the Windows versions, most of those users would eventually switch to the Mac. They are going to just quit their job or stop upgrading. Do you know what the breakdown is?
There is a lot of evidence that Apple did look at acquiring Adobe last year, but decided against it.
If that ever happens... time to buy a lot of AMD stock. I'm not sure that Apple buying ARM would be that big of a deal to competitors though. Apple is pretty much the only company with significant interest in the instruction set. Other companies using the instruction set are either embedded and could recompile their code or are using Java and could run on other platforms. Apple would need to get all their developers to recompile, which isn't the end of the world, but would be a big deal. By the time their competitors were ready to upgrade something else would have come out. Either Intel will have better performance per watt or PPC will make a comeback. With the path some of these other devices are following PPC may make more sense anyway. It allows for faster code execution by sacrificing execution unit density. With ARM you can either go massively parallel or you can tack on lots of extra special purpose hardware.
It isn't that simple. You're essentially asking manufacturers to run their OS's in emulation. You can't just re-compile an OS. Do you know how much work is put into optimizing for each new chip update? This could take ages to do.
PPC won't make a comeback. Intel is entirely different IP.
It would be difficult, and would set manufacturers back a year or two.
I dont think the could happen anyway. Apple isn't going to buy a company like that and essentially destroy it.
I don't see the need to buy them. They can use their own in-house developed IP to advance ARM's designs as everyone else does.
If Apple discontinued the Windows versions, most of those users would eventually switch to the Mac. They are going to just quit their job or stop upgrading. Do you know what the breakdown is?
There is a lot of evidence that Apple did look at acquiring Adobe last year, but decided against it.
Almost two thirds of Adobe's business in on the Windows side. Apple would also destroy most of the value of Adobe. Then they would have to take a massive write-off. They could get sues by customers who depend on the software. Companies aren't going to want to just switch to the Mac. That's a fantasy. Apple would have to continue the software, at least for years.
Manufactures the chips? Yes. Create the underlying ISA? No. AMD and license have a cross-licensing deal, whereby both can use ISA advancements created by the other royalty, and AMD is allowed to use the x86-32 ISA which Intel created, royalty free. You want to bet if HP swallowed up Intel and revoked AMD's x86 license, people wouldn't complain?
Quote:
Would this move prevent anyone from entering the chip market? No.
See above. The x86 ISA is controlled soley by Intel, since they created it, and if HP owned them, then yes, nobody can enter the x86 chip market.
Quote:
Would the purchase of Intel by HP hinder the ability of HPs competitors to manufacture their products? No.
You betchya. See above.
Quote:
If that ever happens... time to buy a lot of AMD stock.
AMD's stock would be worth zero until the justice dept. required HP to keep the cross licensing deals. Similar to how Apple would be required to keep licensing ARM technologies.
According to a report by the London Evening Standard, "Apple is ARM's biggest customer and speculation is that the iPad maker wants to take chip design in house."
After noting that shares in ARM had "shot up 8.1p to 251.1p," the report cited a trader as saying, "A deal would make a lot of sense for Apple. That way, they could stop ARM's technology from ending up in everyone else's computers and gadgets.?
The report added "traders reckon a bid would come in at around 400p a share, valuing ARM at more than £5.2 billion [$8 billion US]."
Apple is in the business as part of its activities of cultivating links. An example would be that while it was working with IBM and Motorola on the PPC and perhaps keeping an eye on the cell processor, Apple was cultivating Intel (despite toasted bunny fun) so that they were able to make a smooth transition of products to Intel processors.
This could be particularly important in the coming decade, as companies such as Intel (and IBM) might just bring about leaps in computing technology that the others cannot and Apple would not want to have burnt bridges.
Purchasing ARM Holdings would add to Apple's competitive edge but I don't think that they'd just cut current customers off.
Comments
Or Compaq and DEC merging... or Oracle and SUN merging... Lots of more significant examples...
Speaking of SUN... who is Apple going to acquire for a new filesystem? Their ZFS plans got screwed and Apple didn't even put up a fight... they must have something planned...
None of those are good examples.
This would be closer to Hp buying Intel. I'm not so sure that would go over big.
This is the same problem with buying Adobe
Adobe doesn't license technology. The problem with acquiring Adobe is they have way too much debt to pay off. There is a reason their products are so expensive. They are still struggling to pay off the Macromedia debt. If Apple wanted to get in that space, they would probably make competing products in secret over the next few years and release them for a fraction of the cost to encourage people to switch. They are already part way there with Quartz and Core Image. Since most of the features could be factored in to their core frameworks, they would only need like three guys working in secret.
If you believe that you've been listening to the Tech Press. iTunes, the iPod, iPhone and other technologies (Mobileme) should tell you that Apple is no longer solely focused on pushing the Mac platform.
They have no problems delivering products that work with competitors (Exchange sync), MS Office file format export and more.
It's absurd to think that suddenly Apple's going to spend 8 billion dollars and tell 3rd parties they no longer have access to a license.
There's no downside to providing the IP to everyone willing to pay because what's going to differentiate these cores are the custom elements that external designers will put in. Apple gets a little cut of every device out there for the task of designing the building blocks.
Apple has never made an acquisition of this size in their history so none of us knows how they manage things but I'm just not seeing a lot of cruft coming from an ARM purchase.
If Apple buys Adobe they have to deal with cross platform tools for deploying on windows. They don't have that to worry about with ARM to the same extent.
Considering that most of the industry uses these designs, that wouldn't be sustainable.
You know, just because we're Apple users doesn't mean that we can think that anything that Apple MAY do would be ok. If another company did that to Apple, you would be among the first up and screaming about how unfair it is.
Why wouldn't it be ok?
If Apple cut off its competitors, it isn't like they are hindering their competitors from acquiring chips from other manufactures using different core designs.
Business is business, it is not good or bad.
Intel has no play here. Atom isn't a mobile phone architecture and won't be for a while. Apple can print money here.
Intel were showing off their new mobile platform at CES back in January. It's based off the second generation "pine view" atom chips and is up to 50x more power efficient than their previous attempt. It is supposed to have very similar power levels to the ARM Cortex-A9 but with superior performance.
None of those are good examples.
This would be closer to Hp buying Intel. I'm not so sure that would go over big.
And.....
Is there any other company that makes chips? Yes.
Would this move prevent anyone from entering the chip market? No.
Would the purchase of Intel by HP hinder the ability of HPs competitors to manufacture their products? No.
Not really sure what problem you are talking about.
None of those are good examples.
This would be closer to Hp buying Intel. I'm not so sure that would go over big.
If that ever happens... time to buy a lot of AMD stock. I'm not sure that Apple buying ARM would be that big of a deal to competitors though. Apple is pretty much the only company with significant interest in the instruction set. Other companies using the instruction set are either embedded and could recompile their code or are using Java and could run on other platforms. Apple would need to get all their developers to recompile, which isn't the end of the world, but would be a big deal. By the time their competitors were ready to upgrade something else would have come out. Either Intel will have better performance per watt or PPC will make a comeback. With the path some of these other devices are following PPC may make more sense anyway. It allows for faster code execution by sacrificing execution unit density. With ARM you can either go massively parallel or you can tack on lots of extra special purpose hardware.
Apple needs to remember what business it is in... What it excels at!
I have no doubt that Apple will-- if Apple were to buy ARM, it would be to advance Apple products, not to lock out others or to squelch competition... They don't believe that they have any real competition at what they choose to do.
However, they are savvy enough not to let others put them at a competitive disadvantage by constricting their access to technology...
Apple is in the business of building high quality computer equipment and so doing as much of it in house makes this even easier to achieve.
Apple's not going to switch focus to chip building it's still going to be ARM doing all of the chip work just like it's still PA Semi designing their custom chips so all along Apple is only going to be concentrating on Apple computing products it just means they would have higher priority on the chips than everyone else.
What is Apple really good at? Design. Apple designs their own boards and so is pretty clued up in getting the most out of current technologies.
But what if Apple was in a position to further advance the current technology creating their own road maps? By owning ARM Apple could design awesome processors and move the technology beyond current thinking via PA Semi and license that technology to the rest of the industry through ARM using ARM's pulling power to get them built easily without having to rely on other manufacturers to design and build in such a way that fits Apple's plans.
The offshoot being that now the entire mobile industry would have this amazing technology and further advance today's technology into the future.
Apple would lead but the followers would be using top end chipsets.
Adobe doesn't license technology. The problem with acquiring Adobe is they have way too much debt to pay off. There is a reason their products are so expensive. They are still struggling to pay off the Macromedia debt. If Apple wanted to get in that space, they would probably make competing products in secret over the next few years and release them for a fraction of the cost to encourage people to switch. They are already part way there with Quartz and Core Image. Since most of the features could be factored in to their core frameworks, they would only need like three guys working in secret.
What I meant was that Adobe's customers are mostly non Apple. Buying them would result in Apple selling large amounts of Windows software. Discontinuing most of it would cause an uproar.
Adobe's prices aren't higher now than they were before Macromedia's purchase. Adobe doesn't license software for others to mod and sell, but every time you buy some, you are licensing it.
Why wouldn't it be ok?
If Apple cut off its competitors, it isn't like they are hindering their competitors from acquiring chips from other manufactures using different core designs.
Business is business, it is not good or bad.
When the majority of companies rely n a particular product, and you say they can't buy it anymore, thats a major disruption to their business.
You think they can just go anywhere? How would they do that? If they wanted to buy a chip that wasn't an ARM design but that was compatible with their OS, where would they go?
There is currently nowhere for them to go.
This could be construed as Apple intentionally destroying their businesses. You can't do that. Apple would be sued up the whazoo. And that's assuming that governments would even allow it..
And.....
Is there any other company that makes chips? Yes.
Would this move prevent anyone from entering the chip market? No.
Would the purchase of Intel by HP hinder the ability of HPs competitors to manufacture their products? No.
Not really sure what problem you are talking about.
You have GOT to be kidding!
I'm not sure that Apple buying ARM would be that big of a deal to competitors though. Apple is pretty much the only company with significant interest in the instruction set.
It would be a huge deal to Apple's competitors in mobile, routers, the nascent smartbook market and its non-competitors across the whole embedded sector. ARM doesn't just supply Apple: they are the most widely-used 32-bit architecture in the world. I doubt this trader's claim that Apple are their biggest customer. Their business model that underpins their development programme is based on high volumes and wide licensing.
In short, a ridiculous rumour. Neither Apple nor ARM need this extreme form of vertical integration. It would be bad for both companies and for the market as a whole. If the shareholders of each did not prevent it as best as they could, the regulators surely will. Even Apple enthusiasts should see the utter folly of the company distracting itself from its core competencies in this way.
What I meant was that Adobe's customers are mostly non Apple. Buying them would result in Apple selling large amounts of Windows software. Discontinuing most of it would cause an uproar.
Adobe's prices aren't higher now than they were before Macromedia's purchase. Adobe doesn't license software for others to mod and sell, but every time you buy some, you are licensing it.
If Apple discontinued the Windows versions, most of those users would eventually switch to the Mac. They are going to just quit their job or stop upgrading. Do you know what the breakdown is?
There is a lot of evidence that Apple did look at acquiring Adobe last year, but decided against it.
If that ever happens... time to buy a lot of AMD stock. I'm not sure that Apple buying ARM would be that big of a deal to competitors though. Apple is pretty much the only company with significant interest in the instruction set. Other companies using the instruction set are either embedded and could recompile their code or are using Java and could run on other platforms. Apple would need to get all their developers to recompile, which isn't the end of the world, but would be a big deal. By the time their competitors were ready to upgrade something else would have come out. Either Intel will have better performance per watt or PPC will make a comeback. With the path some of these other devices are following PPC may make more sense anyway. It allows for faster code execution by sacrificing execution unit density. With ARM you can either go massively parallel or you can tack on lots of extra special purpose hardware.
It isn't that simple. You're essentially asking manufacturers to run their OS's in emulation. You can't just re-compile an OS. Do you know how much work is put into optimizing for each new chip update? This could take ages to do.
PPC won't make a comeback. Intel is entirely different IP.
It would be difficult, and would set manufacturers back a year or two.
I dont think the could happen anyway. Apple isn't going to buy a company like that and essentially destroy it.
I don't see the need to buy them. They can use their own in-house developed IP to advance ARM's designs as everyone else does.
If Apple discontinued the Windows versions, most of those users would eventually switch to the Mac. They are going to just quit their job or stop upgrading. Do you know what the breakdown is?
There is a lot of evidence that Apple did look at acquiring Adobe last year, but decided against it.
Almost two thirds of Adobe's business in on the Windows side. Apple would also destroy most of the value of Adobe. Then they would have to take a massive write-off. They could get sues by customers who depend on the software. Companies aren't going to want to just switch to the Mac. That's a fantasy. Apple would have to continue the software, at least for years.
What evidence? I don't remember it.
And.....
Is there any other company that makes chips? Yes.
Manufactures the chips? Yes. Create the underlying ISA? No. AMD and license have a cross-licensing deal, whereby both can use ISA advancements created by the other royalty, and AMD is allowed to use the x86-32 ISA which Intel created, royalty free. You want to bet if HP swallowed up Intel and revoked AMD's x86 license, people wouldn't complain?
Would this move prevent anyone from entering the chip market? No.
See above. The x86 ISA is controlled soley by Intel, since they created it, and if HP owned them, then yes, nobody can enter the x86 chip market.
Would the purchase of Intel by HP hinder the ability of HPs competitors to manufacture their products? No.
You betchya. See above.
If that ever happens... time to buy a lot of AMD stock.
AMD's stock would be worth zero until the justice dept. required HP to keep the cross licensing deals. Similar to how Apple would be required to keep licensing ARM technologies.
According to a report by the London Evening Standard, "Apple is ARM's biggest customer and speculation is that the iPad maker wants to take chip design in house."
After noting that shares in ARM had "shot up 8.1p to 251.1p," the report cited a trader as saying, "A deal would make a lot of sense for Apple. That way, they could stop ARM's technology from ending up in everyone else's computers and gadgets.?
The report added "traders reckon a bid would come in at around 400p a share, valuing ARM at more than £5.2 billion [$8 billion US]."
So they have stock manipulators in UK also?
This could be particularly important in the coming decade, as companies such as Intel (and IBM) might just bring about leaps in computing technology that the others cannot and Apple would not want to have burnt bridges.
Purchasing ARM Holdings would add to Apple's competitive edge but I don't think that they'd just cut current customers off.