Those aren't simply Android skins they do offer specific additional functionality right within the phone for widgets and social networking. So they do directly effect the way Android works on each phone. The user interface and human interface guidelines are extremely important for the ease of use of the phone.
I agree those different UI by themselves don't necessarily break application compatibility. But they do splinter the Android platform.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicpolywog
Sense and Blur are only skin-deep additions to the Android OS. They don't break application compatibility, and they don't have any bearing on the development process for app creators. Saying that they "aren't doing anything to make them compatible" is a nonsensical statement. You can download the same apps from the Android Market and they work exactly the same on Sense, Blur, or Stock Android.
Why do you guys keep bringing up the OS X kernal, I strongly suggest you stop using that as you open source example.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Superbass
Nice, obtuse post.
And sure, the Nexus and Incredible have different desktop/homescreens, but that doesn't mean the Android SDK is different for each phone. If I change the icons and background on my OSX desktop does iWork break? Of course not. The underlying system is the same.
Sure, Android is open source, but so is the OSX kernel. People could of course design a bunch of non-standards based versions of Android where no existing apps would work, but why would they?
I can see by the de-evolution of your posts to device insults that you're not going to be worth continuing to discuss anything with. My original point that actual upgrading Android is not as complex of a process as j-somthing made it out to be. That point has been proven. Anything else you want to say is just you stroking your own ego.
Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicpolywog
Because google still has a standardized SDK for devs to use? And it's in phone-maker's best interest, if they change anything at all, to keep it compatible with the standards google has laid out. Heck, Mac OS is based on an open source kernel... that hasn't stopped people from developing mac software...
You folks are living in a dream world.
In the REAL world, people are having problems upgrading their Android phones. It may work smoothly for a few people, but it is difficult or impossible for the overwhelming majority.
Read the page on this board just a few days ago covering the topic. Only a very tiny percentage of Android users ever upgrade their phones - because in many cases the upgrade isn't even available because they need the specific upgrade from their carrier, not the generic one that you're bragging about.
The proof is in the pudding - and Android's is apparently inedible.
How do you develop for an OS that can be very different from phone to phone?
You really don't "get" Android or open source, do you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
The capability of each phone is entirely different,
What do you mean? They're both phones, they both run the same apps, they both can browse the internet, check email, they both have cameras...
Quote:
the user interface of each phone are very different,
Not true. It's subtly different. Sense is just a skin, some snazzy looking widgets, and a couple bundled apps. Granted, they're not EXACTLY the same, but the UI conventions are the same, like the notification bar at the top that pulls down, the icons and widgets. What you're saying is basically like saying that all Macs are incompatible because people can change the desktop picture and arrange their folders differently. To a developer, none of this makes any difference.
People are not free to drop the data plans if they want.
You saying your son has a first gen iPhone on AT&T with no data plan? Your son uses wireless data without being charged for it?
No, he has not data what so every, and yes it is a second phone on our AT&T family plan. he uses it for games, music, texting, and as phone. If he wants data he uses wifi. Once the the two year commitment is up it can be used as a regular phone. What AT&T does not like if taking the lower cost data plans they have and putting an iphone on that plan, if you want data you have to pay for an iphone data plan.
That's a blog post about one guy's experience, not an article. It's cool that he has opinions too, though. However, most of the publications that have reviewed the Incredible disagree with him.
I don't actually know much about profit margins in the mobile business, but I was under the impression that the manufacturer sets the price they charge the carrier for the handsets, and then the carrier covers their loss on the 2-for-1 by signing people up for 2-year commitments to $30/mo data plans on their "free" phones. They already have enough margin on voice plans to give you a "free" new phone every 2 years... why wouldn't they be able to afford to make that free phone a cheap/free smartphone when they force you to pay more per month for the privilege of having one.
It depends on the specific contract between mfr and carrier. Of course, the carrier can afford it, but that $300 subsidy comes right out of their profit and reduces their cash flow.
In any case, if VZW commits to 1m Palm Pre and pays Palm a fixed high price for each but is unable to sell them and resorts to 2-for-1s, what is the chance that VZW commits to 1m Palm anythings the next time around? If anything, VZW would demand a much lower price for a given volume commitment.
Right now, I suspect with the Android and other smartphones that VZW isn't really having trouble selling them, but VZW is instead embarking on a land grab - i.e., convincing as many VZW subscribers as possible to upgrade (and lock in for 2 years), and for those thinking about leaving for AT&T or other carrier, convincing them to stay with a better financial offer.
The collective cell phone industry has always outsold the iphone. Duh! Apple only releases 1 iteration a year. That is their current business model. They don't saturate the market like NOKIA.
Right. Apple is not even in the top five cellphone manufacturers, and that is better.
Quote:
Originally Posted by maccherry
But since Android, the cell phone folks have adopted it like crazy. In effect Android has piggybacked on what was an ALREADY DOMINATING cell business anyway. DUH! DUH! DUH!
It isn't like Google was producing its own phone taking into account the cost of hardware, design etc.
I know the data plan as absolutely required when you first buy an iPhone. I'd never heard of it being optional after the contract has ended.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maestro64
No, he has not data what so every, and yes it is a second phone on our AT&T family plan. he uses it for games, music, texting, and as phone. If he wants data he uses wifi. Once the the two year commitment is up it can be used as a regular phone. What AT&T does not like if taking the lower cost data plans they have and putting an iphone on that plan, if you want data you have to pay for an iphone data plan.
What definition of open source do you believe i am using?
apparently one in which operating systems that use open source kernels are impossible to develop apps for.
Or maybe what you're trying to say is that it's difficult for developers to have consistent UI with the rest of the system because some phones have slight variations in their native UIs?
If that's what you've been getting at, you're right about UI guidelines being important, but you're wrong about Android being particularly bad at having a consistent UI. I was worried about this before I actually tried using the Incredible. While it's true that it's not as homogenous as iPhone OS, it's not like it's disruptive. It's not, for example, like mac vs windows, where the UI is jarringly inconsistent with itself.
And there are a lot of other benefits. Like Google Voice, a decent carrier, tethering...
Google deserves some congratulations. Between Google copying the iPhone OS, paying manufacturers, and Android phones being given away for free, they finally are able to pawn off more of their handsets than Apple is able to sell at full price, their original, premium offering.
Are there people on this board who have convinced themselves that these models are even close to comparable?
Google deserves some congratulations. Between Google copying the iPhone OS, paying manufacturers, and Android phones being given away for free, they finally are able to pawn off more of their handsets than Apple is able to sell at full price, their original, premium offering.
Are there people on this board who have convinced themselves that these models are even close to comparable?
You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.
one must measure a company not by its marketshare nor its growth rate but by its profitability.
Your entire thesis ignores the fact that there are many more consumers than there are owners. For consumers who might be "measuring a company", profitability is dwarfed by other factors.
You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.
Oh, of course. Why I remember when the iPhone was first introduced, all of the tech journalists, fans, and haters decried the iPhone as a copycat of the...
What phone or OS was it you said the iPhone copied?
Comments
I agree those different UI by themselves don't necessarily break application compatibility. But they do splinter the Android platform.
Sense and Blur are only skin-deep additions to the Android OS. They don't break application compatibility, and they don't have any bearing on the development process for app creators. Saying that they "aren't doing anything to make them compatible" is a nonsensical statement. You can download the same apps from the Android Market and they work exactly the same on Sense, Blur, or Stock Android.
Why do you guys keep bringing up the OS X kernal, I strongly suggest you stop using that as you open source example.
Nice, obtuse post.
And sure, the Nexus and Incredible have different desktop/homescreens, but that doesn't mean the Android SDK is different for each phone. If I change the icons and background on my OSX desktop does iWork break? Of course not. The underlying system is the same.
Sure, Android is open source, but so is the OSX kernel. People could of course design a bunch of non-standards based versions of Android where no existing apps would work, but why would they?
I can see by the de-evolution of your posts to device insults that you're not going to be worth continuing to discuss anything with. My original point that actual upgrading Android is not as complex of a process as j-somthing made it out to be. That point has been proven. Anything else you want to say is just you stroking your own ego.
Because google still has a standardized SDK for devs to use? And it's in phone-maker's best interest, if they change anything at all, to keep it compatible with the standards google has laid out. Heck, Mac OS is based on an open source kernel... that hasn't stopped people from developing mac software...
You folks are living in a dream world.
In the REAL world, people are having problems upgrading their Android phones. It may work smoothly for a few people, but it is difficult or impossible for the overwhelming majority.
Read the page on this board just a few days ago covering the topic. Only a very tiny percentage of Android users ever upgrade their phones - because in many cases the upgrade isn't even available because they need the specific upgrade from their carrier, not the generic one that you're bragging about.
The proof is in the pudding - and Android's is apparently inedible.
How do you develop for an OS that can be very different from phone to phone?
You really don't "get" Android or open source, do you?
The capability of each phone is entirely different,
What do you mean? They're both phones, they both run the same apps, they both can browse the internet, check email, they both have cameras...
the user interface of each phone are very different,
Not true. It's subtly different. Sense is just a skin, some snazzy looking widgets, and a couple bundled apps. Granted, they're not EXACTLY the same, but the UI conventions are the same, like the notification bar at the top that pulls down, the icons and widgets. What you're saying is basically like saying that all Macs are incompatible because people can change the desktop picture and arrange their folders differently. To a developer, none of this makes any difference.
People are not free to drop the data plans if they want.
You saying your son has a first gen iPhone on AT&T with no data plan? Your son uses wireless data without being charged for it?
No, he has not data what so every, and yes it is a second phone on our AT&T family plan. he uses it for games, music, texting, and as phone. If he wants data he uses wifi. Once the the two year commitment is up it can be used as a regular phone. What AT&T does not like if taking the lower cost data plans they have and putting an iphone on that plan, if you want data you have to pay for an iphone data plan.
You didn't bother reading the article did you?
That's a blog post about one guy's experience, not an article. It's cool that he has opinions too, though. However, most of the publications that have reviewed the Incredible disagree with him.
I don't actually know much about profit margins in the mobile business, but I was under the impression that the manufacturer sets the price they charge the carrier for the handsets, and then the carrier covers their loss on the 2-for-1 by signing people up for 2-year commitments to $30/mo data plans on their "free" phones. They already have enough margin on voice plans to give you a "free" new phone every 2 years... why wouldn't they be able to afford to make that free phone a cheap/free smartphone when they force you to pay more per month for the privilege of having one.
It depends on the specific contract between mfr and carrier. Of course, the carrier can afford it, but that $300 subsidy comes right out of their profit and reduces their cash flow.
In any case, if VZW commits to 1m Palm Pre and pays Palm a fixed high price for each but is unable to sell them and resorts to 2-for-1s, what is the chance that VZW commits to 1m Palm anythings the next time around? If anything, VZW would demand a much lower price for a given volume commitment.
Right now, I suspect with the Android and other smartphones that VZW isn't really having trouble selling them, but VZW is instead embarking on a land grab - i.e., convincing as many VZW subscribers as possible to upgrade (and lock in for 2 years), and for those thinking about leaving for AT&T or other carrier, convincing them to stay with a better financial offer.
As a matter of fact, Android is the only thing that can keep Apple in line now.
What kind of 'line' is that which Apple should be on?
I will be dumping my iPhone and getting an Android device - the reason I have more control over what apps I can run - my choice
Good luck with that!
The collective cell phone industry has always outsold the iphone. Duh! Apple only releases 1 iteration a year. That is their current business model. They don't saturate the market like NOKIA.
Right. Apple is not even in the top five cellphone manufacturers, and that is better.
But since Android, the cell phone folks have adopted it like crazy. In effect Android has piggybacked on what was an ALREADY DOMINATING cell business anyway. DUH! DUH! DUH!
It isn't like Google was producing its own phone taking into account the cost of hardware, design etc.
It looks to be a viable strategy.
- Phone got hot within minutes of surfing
- UI was nice but not as refined in places
- Battery was shockingly bad
All in all a terrible experience. I liked the notification system but that's about it. I regret getting rid of my 3GS. Cant wait for the 4th iphone!
Apple is doomed if it attempts to focus on market share at the expense of profitability.
Heck, let's just make it a rule.
Everyone who posts must put "Apple is doomed!?" at either the beginning or ending of every post.
Why is AI rendering so poorly now in Safari? Anybody else having the ads take over the entire screen?
Glitch from the ad provider. It has been fixed.
You really don't "get" Android or open source, do you?
What definition of open source do you believe i am using?
What do you mean? They're both phones, they both run the same apps, they both can browse the internet, check email, they both have cameras...
Wait and watch as this whole thing continues.
No, he has not data what so every, and yes it is a second phone on our AT&T family plan. he uses it for games, music, texting, and as phone. If he wants data he uses wifi. Once the the two year commitment is up it can be used as a regular phone. What AT&T does not like if taking the lower cost data plans they have and putting an iphone on that plan, if you want data you have to pay for an iphone data plan.
What definition of open source do you believe i am using?
apparently one in which operating systems that use open source kernels are impossible to develop apps for.
Or maybe what you're trying to say is that it's difficult for developers to have consistent UI with the rest of the system because some phones have slight variations in their native UIs?
If that's what you've been getting at, you're right about UI guidelines being important, but you're wrong about Android being particularly bad at having a consistent UI. I was worried about this before I actually tried using the Incredible. While it's true that it's not as homogenous as iPhone OS, it's not like it's disruptive. It's not, for example, like mac vs windows, where the UI is jarringly inconsistent with itself.
And there are a lot of other benefits. Like Google Voice, a decent carrier, tethering...
Are there people on this board who have convinced themselves that these models are even close to comparable?
Google deserves some congratulations. Between Google copying the iPhone OS, paying manufacturers, and Android phones being given away for free, they finally are able to pawn off more of their handsets than Apple is able to sell at full price, their original, premium offering.
Are there people on this board who have convinced themselves that these models are even close to comparable?
You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.
one must measure a company not by its marketshare nor its growth rate but by its profitability.
Your entire thesis ignores the fact that there are many more consumers than there are owners. For consumers who might be "measuring a company", profitability is dwarfed by other factors.
You've been around long enough to know that Apple pretty much copied the idea of a touch-screen phone from Palm from early part of last decade.
Oh, of course. Why I remember when the iPhone was first introduced, all of the tech journalists, fans, and haters decried the iPhone as a copycat of the...
What phone or OS was it you said the iPhone copied?