So. Adobe is on the record as either opposing html 5 (early-on) or trying to emasculate it as a robust and functional open standard because they rightly recognized that it would have an impact on Flash installed base - especially if Canvas is included. Can you say passive-agressive behaviors??
Then, Adobe has demonstrated that they cannot effectively support the installed base of Flash users, based on the feedback in their own forums around resource utilization - in most reported cases on the Mac and Linux platforms.
Then they trot out a pre-beta builder paltform which they claim will allow developers to develop once release across all platforms - which is, I think where you get your questions.
So the Adobe business model is to lock-in developers to their own product (Flash) and compromise any competing system, standard (open or otherwise) or toolset that would prevent them from functionally owning webdevelopment for the mobile device space. You as a developer would be wholly dependent on Adobe to maintain a proprietary, non open standard supporting toolset. Worse, your code would have an overhead of additional code that must remain in place to allow you to release across platforms. So instead of a spartan and robust application framework, you have all this additional overhead which makes it convenient to do your cross-platform dev, but, depends solely on Adobe staying out in front of multiple platform development, and gives Adobe additional control to retard platform OS development because they will set the pace of updating not the platform owners. This is where Google and Android are puzzling. They don't or haven't recognized the obvious - that while embracing Adobe's tool will help them build app space, it will adversely impact their own advancement of the OS as they become dependent on Adobe making timely updates to the tool. Therefore, once they implement, they will no longer be free to make ad hoc updates to Android as freely as they have over the last couple of years - in fact this last year, several updates during the course of the year.
Steve would respond, "Drop Flash. Not a big deal.")
Too wordy. At a minimum, it would be reduced to 'Drop Flash. No big deal".
Or maybe just 'No way in he**".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovetube
How exactly, is adobe "denying choice"? You don't -have- to run flash. You could install click4Flash or simply uninstall the plugin. Is there an adobe "shill" sitting next to you preventing you from, excersizing choice?.
Let's see if you can follow along, OK?
1. Adobe says that Flash is needed to experience the full internet. WIth me so far?
2. There is no version of Flash for mobile devices - and even if Adobe releases 10.1, only a tiny percentage will run Flash in the future.
3. Flash is proprietary and no one but Adobe has the ability to fix Flash's problems or release a version with lower CPU requirements.
So, if you're using a mobile device and not able to access Flash sites ("the full internet" in Adobe terms), who is to blame but Adobe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by chronster
I'm game. I fully accept any new standard that wants to step up to the plate, and that companies are willing to make an effort to make work on mobile. The fact remains, however, the web as it is today makes use of flash a lot, so ultimately a mobile device supporting it seamlessly is ideal for a "full web experience."
So by your definition, mobile users do not have the Full Internet - and it's Adobe's fault for not releasing a version that works on mobile devices.
Thanks for clarifying that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
"Take, out the papers and the Flash, er.. Trash...
--- Or you don't get no spending' cash!
If you don't scrub that kitchen floor,
--- You ain't gonna rock and roll no more!
Yakitty, Yak... Don't talk back!"
"Don't LOOK back" would be more appropriate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by John.B
This is patently untrue, and AppleInsider should be ashamed of "publishing" falsehoods like this. Flash runs on any modern browser on any version of OSX, including Safari. Flash also runs on Safari for Windows.
Demonstrably false. iPhone OS is a version of OS X and Adobe has never released a version for OS X, so your statement is false
Quote:
Originally Posted by libran_ca
I find this letter as a very emotional response. However it does not address the issues as mentioned by Jobs in his letter.
Standard practice. If you can't refute an opponent with facts, throw muc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stevie
The 10.1 Beta is out, or will be very soon. They are working.
So you're still confused about the difference between a beta and a product?
Not to mention that no one has explained to you that the iPhone came out in 2007 and Adobe was promising a version of Flash back then - yet STILL hasn't provided it? Plus the fact that 10.1 will only run on a few of the newest and fastest phones - if it works at all?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
I agree, except for your last sentence.
Actually, hasn't Adobe been the one to shut out Flash from mobile devices by not providing any means to play Flash content on them?
.
Why would you not agree with that? Flash is proprietary and no one else can write a new version of Flash. It is a demonstrated fact that mobile devices don't run a full version of Flash today. So who else is responsible if not Adobe?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Macadamias
HMM... Seems like it would only get Flash when the devices are powerful enough to not affect the experience. Since Flash 10.1 will only work on iPhone 3GS and Nexus One level devices as a minimum, Adobe has had no real argument for Apple not including Flash yet.
Not correct. Adobe says 10.1 requires an 800 MHz A8 - so the iPhone 3GS won't run it - EVEN IF it works as well as Adobe claims (which is very much in question).
That is like Toyota saying "We love the American National Highway Association." What we don't love is someone interfering with your right to experience uncontrolled acceleration while on fire.
Android 2.1+ devices will be flash capable. Updates are slowly coming out, but they're coming out for those older android devices to bring them up on the new android releases. It's not a great system, but it's better than no flash ever which is the system apple's playing by.
swf has been open for time. Anyone can develop their own player, in fact the compiler for actionscipt is open source.
The FULL swf spec is NOT open. One of the things that open source players can't access is the verification portion. That has stopped them from accessing the BBC's iPlayer videos.
I've been on an iPhone since day one of the original and on the iPad from day one as well. Haven't missed flash at all and am seriously considering just deleting it from Safari on my Quad and MBP. I had 3 crashes last week...all three a result of Flash. If Adobe can't get Flash to work on the desktop or MBP, the last thing I need is Flash crashing my iPhone and iPad.
My experience with most Adobe products, Flash, Photoshop, Acrobat Pro, etc is that these apps take too long to load up, slow to render, and generally are bloated and buggy. I use a Mac Book Pro core 2 duo, and loathe when I need to use their products, so much so that I look for alternatives to their products where possible. So, when will Adobe demonstrate a working mobile version of Flash!? Honestly, I hope Flash and most Adboe products go away, that day couldn't come soon enough.
As to your assertion that Adobe is pushing porn and ads, you had to have known how stupid this sounded when you posted it. OBVIOUSLY html5 can handle video and ads, so if Apple is pushing HTML5, by your logic, they also are pushing ads and porn. Ugh, why did I even respond to that sentence?
No, it isn't, and to say so means you have absolutely no grasp on how big the internet really is. A few major sites convert to html5 for the much hyped ipad launch and now the whole web is converting? Nope.
.
We get it... you love Flash and no doubt make a pretty penny 'developing' in it.
My point is that the only people who passionately 'need' Flash are those who
1) want their porn
2) want to bombard us with annoying jumping ads, and
3) want to play primitive games like Farmville.
And the constant meme from the pro-Flash crowd is that Apple forces you to use a 'crippled internet' (again the hubris) because it doesn't agree with the definition of "The Internet" as the 3 features above.
We get it... you love Flash and no doubt make a pretty penny 'developing' in it.
My point is that the only people who passionately 'need' Flash are those who
1) want their porn
2) want to bombard us with annoying jumping ads, and
3) want to play primitive games like Farmville.
And the constant meme from the pro-Flash crowd is that Apple forces you to use a 'crippled internet' (again the hubris) because it doesn't agree with the definition of "The Internet" as the 3 features above.
There's more to the web than your narrow view of it, but at least we know how you spend all your spare time.
For anyone not paying attention that means DROID/Nexus One class phones or higher.
Which means phones which wont and dont support HTML5 anyway will get something that gives them HTML5 like features on their non HTML5 phones. What's your problem?
I use clicktoflash on my MacBook Pro, the only problem I see with the more and more website adopting HTML5 and abandoning Flash is I won't be able to block banner ads as easily in Safari.
Comments
Translation of Adobe's new anti-Apple campaign: We are now officially scared.
It's not anti-apple. Why are all the posters on here dim?
So. Adobe is on the record as either opposing html 5 (early-on) or trying to emasculate it as a robust and functional open standard because they rightly recognized that it would have an impact on Flash installed base - especially if Canvas is included. Can you say passive-agressive behaviors??
Then, Adobe has demonstrated that they cannot effectively support the installed base of Flash users, based on the feedback in their own forums around resource utilization - in most reported cases on the Mac and Linux platforms.
Then they trot out a pre-beta builder paltform which they claim will allow developers to develop once release across all platforms - which is, I think where you get your questions.
So the Adobe business model is to lock-in developers to their own product (Flash) and compromise any competing system, standard (open or otherwise) or toolset that would prevent them from functionally owning webdevelopment for the mobile device space. You as a developer would be wholly dependent on Adobe to maintain a proprietary, non open standard supporting toolset. Worse, your code would have an overhead of additional code that must remain in place to allow you to release across platforms. So instead of a spartan and robust application framework, you have all this additional overhead which makes it convenient to do your cross-platform dev, but, depends solely on Adobe staying out in front of multiple platform development, and gives Adobe additional control to retard platform OS development because they will set the pace of updating not the platform owners. This is where Google and Android are puzzling. They don't or haven't recognized the obvious - that while embracing Adobe's tool will help them build app space, it will adversely impact their own advancement of the OS as they become dependent on Adobe making timely updates to the tool. Therefore, once they implement, they will no longer be free to make ad hoc updates to Android as freely as they have over the last couple of years - in fact this last year, several updates during the course of the year.
Flash is an addiction-- like cocaine:
David Bromberg tells it best:
"I call my Cora hey yeah
Along comes Sally with her nose all tore,
the doctor says she can't sniff no more,
He says cocaine's for horses, it's not for men,
he says it's gonna kill me but he don't say when
I'm simply wild about my good cocaine."
http://www.chordscenter.com/david-br...ng-lljllr.html
http://itunes.apple.com/us/album/my-...ee/id156515828
.
Nah, they would get nowhere with Steve.
Steve would respond, "Drop Flash. Not a big deal.")
Too wordy. At a minimum, it would be reduced to 'Drop Flash. No big deal".
Or maybe just 'No way in he**".
How exactly, is adobe "denying choice"? You don't -have- to run flash. You could install click4Flash or simply uninstall the plugin. Is there an adobe "shill" sitting next to you preventing you from, excersizing choice?.
Let's see if you can follow along, OK?
1. Adobe says that Flash is needed to experience the full internet. WIth me so far?
2. There is no version of Flash for mobile devices - and even if Adobe releases 10.1, only a tiny percentage will run Flash in the future.
3. Flash is proprietary and no one but Adobe has the ability to fix Flash's problems or release a version with lower CPU requirements.
So, if you're using a mobile device and not able to access Flash sites ("the full internet" in Adobe terms), who is to blame but Adobe?
I'm game. I fully accept any new standard that wants to step up to the plate, and that companies are willing to make an effort to make work on mobile. The fact remains, however, the web as it is today makes use of flash a lot, so ultimately a mobile device supporting it seamlessly is ideal for a "full web experience."
So by your definition, mobile users do not have the Full Internet - and it's Adobe's fault for not releasing a version that works on mobile devices.
Thanks for clarifying that.
"Take, out the papers and the Flash, er.. Trash...
--- Or you don't get no spending' cash!
If you don't scrub that kitchen floor,
--- You ain't gonna rock and roll no more!
Yakitty, Yak... Don't talk back!"
"Don't LOOK back" would be more appropriate.
This is patently untrue, and AppleInsider should be ashamed of "publishing" falsehoods like this. Flash runs on any modern browser on any version of OSX, including Safari. Flash also runs on Safari for Windows.
Demonstrably false. iPhone OS is a version of OS X and Adobe has never released a version for OS X, so your statement is false
I find this letter as a very emotional response. However it does not address the issues as mentioned by Jobs in his letter.
Standard practice. If you can't refute an opponent with facts, throw muc.
The 10.1 Beta is out, or will be very soon. They are working.
So you're still confused about the difference between a beta and a product?
Not to mention that no one has explained to you that the iPhone came out in 2007 and Adobe was promising a version of Flash back then - yet STILL hasn't provided it? Plus the fact that 10.1 will only run on a few of the newest and fastest phones - if it works at all?
I agree, except for your last sentence.
Actually, hasn't Adobe been the one to shut out Flash from mobile devices by not providing any means to play Flash content on them?
.
Why would you not agree with that? Flash is proprietary and no one else can write a new version of Flash. It is a demonstrated fact that mobile devices don't run a full version of Flash today. So who else is responsible if not Adobe?
HMM... Seems like it would only get Flash when the devices are powerful enough to not affect the experience. Since Flash 10.1 will only work on iPhone 3GS and Nexus One level devices as a minimum, Adobe has had no real argument for Apple not including Flash yet.
Not correct. Adobe says 10.1 requires an 800 MHz A8 - so the iPhone 3GS won't run it - EVEN IF it works as well as Adobe claims (which is very much in question).
Ummm, maybe because nobody else makes a flash player (instead of that creativity/innovation stuff)?
I think we can be pretty sure most of them knew. Most people aren't that stupid.
Stupid has nothing to do with it. And you cannot be "pretty sure". You have no basis.
That is like Toyota saying "We love the American National Highway Association." What we don't love is someone interfering with your right to experience uncontrolled acceleration while on fire.
Hilarious! Good one!
What a bunch of losers. Adobe? No, the retarded posters in this thread.
Here is how to deal with Flash.
iPhone/iPad = no worries no Flash (STFU)
Mac Book = install click to flash or uninstall Flash plugin (STFU)
Mac Pro = see above (STFU)
Windows = no problem (STFU)
Android = go to the AndroidInsider website (STFU)
I would only add:
99% of mobile phones = no worries no Flash (STFU)
.
Android 2.1+ devices will be flash capable. Updates are slowly coming out, but they're coming out for those older android devices to bring them up on the new android releases. It's not a great system, but it's better than no flash ever which is the system apple's playing by.
Cortex-A8 is Required for Flash 10.1 Mobile - everything else gets flash-lite
For anyone not paying attention that means DROID/Nexus One class phones or higher.
swf has been open for time. Anyone can develop their own player, in fact the compiler for actionscipt is open source.
The FULL swf spec is NOT open. One of the things that open source players can't access is the verification portion. That has stopped them from accessing the BBC's iPlayer videos.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...01/bbc-iplayer
I've been on an iPhone since day one of the original and on the iPad from day one as well. Haven't missed flash at all and am seriously considering just deleting it from Safari on my Quad and MBP. I had 3 crashes last week...all three a result of Flash. If Adobe can't get Flash to work on the desktop or MBP, the last thing I need is Flash crashing my iPhone and iPad.
Get this -> ClickToFlash.
Best little app I have. Keeps Flash from loading unless you want it to.
My experience with most Adobe products, Flash, Photoshop, Acrobat Pro, etc is that these apps take too long to load up, slow to render, and generally are bloated and buggy. I use a Mac Book Pro core 2 duo, and loathe when I need to use their products, so much so that I look for alternatives to their products where possible. So, when will Adobe demonstrate a working mobile version of Flash!? Honestly, I hope Flash and most Adboe products go away, that day couldn't come soon enough.
check my sig
Get this -> ClickToFlash.
Best little app I have. Keeps Flash from loading unless you want it to.
what i love most about that is that you couldn't do that if all the ads were in html4/5 with js
As to your assertion that Adobe is pushing porn and ads, you had to have known how stupid this sounded when you posted it. OBVIOUSLY html5 can handle video and ads, so if Apple is pushing HTML5, by your logic, they also are pushing ads and porn. Ugh, why did I even respond to that sentence?
No, it isn't, and to say so means you have absolutely no grasp on how big the internet really is. A few major sites convert to html5 for the much hyped ipad launch and now the whole web is converting? Nope.
.
We get it... you love Flash and no doubt make a pretty penny 'developing' in it.
My point is that the only people who passionately 'need' Flash are those who
1) want their porn
2) want to bombard us with annoying jumping ads, and
3) want to play primitive games like Farmville.
And the constant meme from the pro-Flash crowd is that Apple forces you to use a 'crippled internet' (again the hubris) because it doesn't agree with the definition of "The Internet" as the 3 features above.
Postulant- dude I have no idea what you're talking about.
So are you saying that Apple supports Flash for the web now and just not for mobile devices?
Flash has always workded fine on Safari, just not on the mobile platform.
"Adobe Flash technology remains the 'market leader' because of the constant creativity and technical innovation of our employees."
Ummm, maybe because nobody else makes a flash player (instead of that creativity/innovation stuff)?
There are alternatives to Flash... ie, silverlight.
We get it... you love Flash and no doubt make a pretty penny 'developing' in it.
My point is that the only people who passionately 'need' Flash are those who
1) want their porn
2) want to bombard us with annoying jumping ads, and
3) want to play primitive games like Farmville.
And the constant meme from the pro-Flash crowd is that Apple forces you to use a 'crippled internet' (again the hubris) because it doesn't agree with the definition of "The Internet" as the 3 features above.
There's more to the web than your narrow view of it, but at least we know how you spend all your spare time.
Cortex-A8 is Required for Flash 10.1 Mobile - everything else gets flash-lite
For anyone not paying attention that means DROID/Nexus One class phones or higher.
Which means phones which wont and dont support HTML5 anyway will get something that gives them HTML5 like features on their non HTML5 phones. What's your problem?
There's more to the web than your narrow view of it, but at least we know how you spend all your spare time.
???
Taken a reading comprehension course lately?
check my sig
Nobody cares about the links in your sig. I you have something to say, then say it.