Can you please provide a full list of all features you think are missing from Symbian (s60 is the ui) that means it shouldn't be classed as a smartphone OS?
Symbian has features? This is about SYMBIAN???
Seriously, if that's your level of discourse, you'll be taken as a troll. for sure. Best to keep quiet.
All discussion on this I can find shows that the top 100 apps are indeed doing very well, but below that the chasm drops precipitously, and the other 299,900 apps are pulling in revenues that range from less than the average Mac desktop developer to below minimum wage.
If you can find stats showing the 50th percentile making above minimum wage I'd love to see 'em.
...now the number is 299,900 and you wonder why people question your motives?
If the implications of Apple's demonstrated willingness to pull the rug out from under developers is unclear at this time, prowl around developer sites. People are getting nervous, and not without good reason.
the real story is the movement of 200,000 people to a platform which involved learning a new language ( for most), buying a mac ( for many), and paying $90 ( for all). so why did they do that? to make money. Some indies have made millions, there is no anecdotal evidence of that happening on the Anrdoid market.
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I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to mean. The platform a developer develops on has nothing to do with the quality of the software.
Yes, it does. And I would go further - if you are not prepared to program in Obj C ( or C) you shouldn't be on the platform. In fact if you are not prepared to program - at some level - in C, and C++ ( and/or OpenGL) you are less useful. Jobs is right, the Flash developer will produce generic boilerplate code - for instance I am eying a new API in OS 4 to do something I couldn't do in OS 3.0. The Flash guy would not even be aware of what was in OS 4.0 vs OS 3.0. Similarly I wouldn't expect a port of Cocoa to Windows to be the best.
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but below that the chasm drops precipitously, and the other 299,900 apps are pulling in revenues that range from less than the average Mac desktop developer to below minimum wage.
I assume you mean 199,900. Correct, but websites dont make money and yet employ people to write websites. It is expected. iPhone devs dont have to survive on the app store, but on contracts etc. I am looking at a job paying up t £350 a day in London, but that involves a lot of C++ coding in the Backend for the iPhone. I also have apps on the app store. Not making a fortune, but then if it is not my real job all income is extra.
You can buy different version of Windows too. XP is still selling well, for example. Even Windows 7 comes in different versions for different devices.
Windows is a coherent thing. So is Android.
Different flavors of XP, Vista or Win7 aren't the same thing as the different versions of Android (or for that matter, the fragmentation of the Windows market into pre-XP, XP and Vista/Win7 camps). Android is more fragmented than Windows, with a broad variety of screen configs, different versions of the OS, and manufacturer mods. From a developer standpoint, you're effectively developing for each phone independently, not for the platform as a whole. On a desktop, it doesn't matter to the developer what your screen resolution is (most of the time, at least); on a phone, it's vital. Huge gaps in processor/memory in models impacts any developer wishing to push a lot of data, which is only an issue for a small segment of the PC desktop gaming community and some other desktop niche markets.
As processing speed and memory become cheaper, the differences between low-end and flagship models will probably matter less to developers, but for now, it's a real limitation on how much effort is involved in developing an Android app.
Some indies have made millions, there is no anecdotal evidence of that happening on the Anrdoid market.
I'm thinking that the demographic favors the Apple ecosystem for folks that pay for apps as opposed to seek open source/free solutions.
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In fact if you are not prepared to program - at some level - in C, and C++ ( and/or OpenGL) you are less useful.
Less useful than what? I've done years of real time C/C++ coding and frankly these days I prefer Java and C#. And I can do DirectX in C#/XNA and JOGL in Java. Dalvik could use a bit of refinement but Java and .NET managed code is very performant these days.
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Jobs is right, the Flash developer will produce generic boilerplate code - for instance I am eying a new API in OS 4 to do something I couldn't do in OS 3.0. The Flash guy would not even be aware of what was in OS 4.0 vs OS 3.0. Similarly I wouldn't expect a port of Cocoa to Windows to be the best.
Which has little to do with something like monotouch that provides a fairly thin wrapper around the ObjC API calls. That said, you are better off learning ObjC/Cocoa although I wish they had GC working. Perhaps they do in iOS4.
I assume you mean 199,900. Correct, but websites dont make money and yet employ people to write websites. It is expected. iPhone devs dont have to survive on the app store, but on contracts etc. I am looking at a job paying up t £350 a day in London, but that involves a lot of C++ coding in the Backend for the iPhone. I also have apps on the app store. Not making a fortune, but then if it is not my real job all income is extra.[/QUOTE]
Am I imagining things or this place crawling with Debbie Downers lately? Between the trolls, pessimists, and armchair CEOs is there anybody left here to enjoy Apple's products and success? I guess not.
There are. However there are (sadly) enough people who choose to engage the trolls that it does produce an annoying level of crap, even with the ignore lists.
I don't know what compells people to engage the trolls, and frankly I don't really care. I just wish that if they choose to wade into the cesspool with them that they wouldn't quote them so much
Esp. the really lazy people that quote entire posts
And despite the wishes of the trolls, Android isn't passing the iPhone in over all sales any time soon. Android barely outsold Apple in the quarter before Apple's annual product refresh - and that's with fire sales, extensive ad blitzes and "free tethering for everyone". Talk about racing to the bottom; they might actually have to innovate instead of throwing out feature after feature and two for one fire sales.
Today Apple holds a lead with phone apps, but between their limited carriers, offering a single phone model, and the one-two punch to developers of SDK 4.0 and the growing number of arbitary AppStore purgings, we can safely expect that to level off within a year, ceding the majority of development investment to Android.
It would be fun saving this and pointing out how wrong you are in six months and every six months from then on. Except you probably won't be around...
The antitrust enforcers are now checking things out to see if Apple may have fallen off the wagon. There are allegations that they are using unfair tactics to stifle competition, rather than doing what you identify.
Sour grapes from competitors too stupid or lazy to compete with Apple by producing a better experience.
You would think after the regulatory failures in the financial sector and the regulatory failures of government in Katrina (Bush) and now the Gulf (Obama) that people would have learned by now that "the government" isn't a magic bullet.
Yet here are people basically rooting for bogus anti-trust saber rattling for whatever reasons. Pretty pathetic
Apple is no where near qualifying for anti-trust. These investigations will never get past the "investigative" stage. Otherwise you want to tall about fraud, waste and abuse in government
A stronger case than antitrust can be made for "restraint of trade" with regard to dictating developer tools.
You are ignorant of the law. Restrant of trade would be Apple stating that if you develop for the iPhone you can't develop for any other platform.
That's not what Apple is doing.
Apple is saying if you want to play in our sandbox, here are the rules.
What I find fascinating are all the a$$holes who want to criticize Apple for their sanbox, but are continually whining that they can't play in it. Which way is it? You either play by their rules or you don't. But just stop with the arrogant dictating that Apple cater to your every whim. Why can't there be room for both models?
To me, the single greatest benefit of the app store model is it puts the focus on the end user and the end user experience instead of the developers. It's about time.
If you don't like it, there are plenty of other platforms to develop on (and why anti trust crap will go no where).
The reason there is such a fuss about Apple and the app store by developers who are so quick to point out all Apple is doing wrong is Apple has the profits where the other platforms are not nearly as profitable. That's the elephant in the room no one in the tech press wants to address. It's less about "open" and anti-trust then a bunch of developers that have traditionally been able to do whatever they want throwing a tantrum that anyone dare challenge them. Give me a break!
Thank goodness Apple and Steve are pretty darn impervious to inane chatter and able to ignore the whining What really drives the Cory Doctrows and other whiners crazy is the continued blockbuster success of Apple. They know that as Apple continues each blockbuster quarter, outdoing each previous quarter (even quarters that have historically been down), their arguments ring more and more hollow. Expect the hysteria about the "evil", "monopolistic", and "insert adjective here" Apple to really ratchet up this year as they get more and more frantic. Think the trolls in this and other forums is bad now? We ain't seen nothing yet
The relatively small cost of creating a Verizon iPhone outweighs those lost sales.
Not if Verizon is still making unreasonable demands for control.
Every time the Verizon CEO talks about Apple and the iPhone, it's confrontational. I don't see Apple coming to Verizon any time soon. And with the iPad, iPod touch and ironically tethering on Android, the iPhone on Verizon is less of an issue. Apple isn't totally dependent on the iPhone for their ecosystem. All iDevices are pretty much peers. Android is a shambles in comparison and the lackluster web usage stats and lackluster Android app store sales bare this out. An android phone is compelling because aside from everything else it's still a phone, and at the current fire sale prices there isn't much risk for someone who wouldn't normally consider a smartphone to try Android. If the rest of the android ecosystem isn't as compelling as the iOS (to use the new and very welcome rebranding) then why exactly are people going to buy android tablets? Once you get past the gadget freaks and Apple haters who are they going to sell to?
Also, I think AT&T's new lower entry point with their data plan is going to spawn an explosion of new iPhone customers combined with the new hardware and OS coming out later this month - I know at least 5 people who wouldn't have considered an iPhone at the previous monthly rates but are now very interested in the iPhone.
Android has had years to be developed. It was openly bought by Google in 2005(?) and we was well known before the iPhone was ever officially announced.
And the real irony is, without Apple and the iPhone it wouldn't be on Verizon.
Long story short, there are a lot of iPhones out there, but if current trends continue, Android phones will not just outsell, but outnumber iPhones before we know it.
Market share numbers are easy to get - just give "it" away.
Profits are the sticky wicket. Whether Android makes money for developers will be the interesting thing to watch.
Apple put their cards on the table today, yet I suspect we will hear nothing from Google.
Well, maybe some verbal sparring, but I doubt we will see anything of substance like real sales and profit numbers.
Just a hunch - after all as a zealot I could be "overstating" things
So do you think it will eventually be on 90+% of the mobile phones out there?
If it's the 90% of the phones that deliver 20% of the profit, then it's hardly a problem for Apple now, is it? Millions of net books are sold, yet I doubt anyone at Apple is loosing sleep over it. In fact they are probably laughing (all the way to the bank) over net book sales and all the fuss over them.
In other words, the fascination over simple sales numbers is pretty silly and wholly unfruitful.
And more importantly, controlling hard working developers such as myself.
Aha! The real truth comes out.
Enjoy your android phone. Your in the minority. I can guarantee you the people who find the iOS ecosystem desirable don't care one whit about this. They care about the over all experience, and Android doesn't have it. At least not right now. It will be interesting to see if Google and it's "competing with each other" partners can deliver.
Actually, Apple has been outspoken against jail braking an iPhone and said that it voids the warranty.
Why should they have to cover something that if done wrong can brick your phone?!?
If you are a big enough boy to play fast and loose with "your" hardware, what do you care if the warranty is void?
A warranty is a contract with specific limitations, not a fundamental right or unlimited "get out of jail free" card
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Sounds like Micro$oft speak to me.
Sounds like ignorant whining from people with unrealistic senses of entitlement.
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As a developer
Once again, what a surprise.
If Apple is so evil and you are so eager to have nothing to do with them, why exactly are you hear? I'm not attacking you, I'm really curious for your motivation in posting in an Apple fan site forum.
Comments
Can you please provide a full list of all features you think are missing from Symbian (s60 is the ui) that means it shouldn't be classed as a smartphone OS?
Symbian has features? This is about SYMBIAN???
Seriously, if that's your level of discourse, you'll be taken as a troll. for sure. Best to keep quiet.
Symbian has features? This is about SYMBIAN???
Seriously, if that's your level of discourse, you'll be taken as a troll. for sure. Best to keep quiet.
So true! LOL
Symbian has features?
Have you ever used it?
If the battery lasts less then a full day of heavy use, that is a deal-killer for me.
Fortunately, your satisfaction is no-one's benchmark.
Again with the personal attacks. And nitpicking screen names from a person who chose "solipsism"? Almost interesting.
Yes, the link I provided was to an article very clearly titled as being about iPad apps.
Yet not surprisingly the steeply L-shaped curve of overall App Stores sales apparently applies across the board:
http://www.tuaw.com/2010/04/21/estim...ng-372k-a-day/
http://www.cultofmac.com/developers-...e-number/15250
http://taptaptap.com/blog/final-numbers-for-july/
http://www.newsweek.com/2009/10/05/s...-for-that.html
All discussion on this I can find shows that the top 100 apps are indeed doing very well, but below that the chasm drops precipitously, and the other 299,900 apps are pulling in revenues that range from less than the average Mac desktop developer to below minimum wage.
If you can find stats showing the 50th percentile making above minimum wage I'd love to see 'em.
...now the number is 299,900 and you wonder why people question your motives?
If the implications of Apple's demonstrated willingness to pull the rug out from under developers is unclear at this time, prowl around developer sites. People are getting nervous, and not without good reason.
the real story is the movement of 200,000 people to a platform which involved learning a new language ( for most), buying a mac ( for many), and paying $90 ( for all). so why did they do that? to make money. Some indies have made millions, there is no anecdotal evidence of that happening on the Anrdoid market.
I'm not sure what this statement is supposed to mean. The platform a developer develops on has nothing to do with the quality of the software.
Yes, it does. And I would go further - if you are not prepared to program in Obj C ( or C) you shouldn't be on the platform. In fact if you are not prepared to program - at some level - in C, and C++ ( and/or OpenGL) you are less useful. Jobs is right, the Flash developer will produce generic boilerplate code - for instance I am eying a new API in OS 4 to do something I couldn't do in OS 3.0. The Flash guy would not even be aware of what was in OS 4.0 vs OS 3.0. Similarly I wouldn't expect a port of Cocoa to Windows to be the best.
but below that the chasm drops precipitously, and the other 299,900 apps are pulling in revenues that range from less than the average Mac desktop developer to below minimum wage.
I assume you mean 199,900. Correct, but websites dont make money and yet employ people to write websites. It is expected. iPhone devs dont have to survive on the app store, but on contracts etc. I am looking at a job paying up t £350 a day in London, but that involves a lot of C++ coding in the Backend for the iPhone. I also have apps on the app store. Not making a fortune, but then if it is not my real job all income is extra.
You can buy different version of Windows too. XP is still selling well, for example. Even Windows 7 comes in different versions for different devices.
Windows is a coherent thing. So is Android.
Different flavors of XP, Vista or Win7 aren't the same thing as the different versions of Android (or for that matter, the fragmentation of the Windows market into pre-XP, XP and Vista/Win7 camps). Android is more fragmented than Windows, with a broad variety of screen configs, different versions of the OS, and manufacturer mods. From a developer standpoint, you're effectively developing for each phone independently, not for the platform as a whole. On a desktop, it doesn't matter to the developer what your screen resolution is (most of the time, at least); on a phone, it's vital. Huge gaps in processor/memory in models impacts any developer wishing to push a lot of data, which is only an issue for a small segment of the PC desktop gaming community and some other desktop niche markets.
As processing speed and memory become cheaper, the differences between low-end and flagship models will probably matter less to developers, but for now, it's a real limitation on how much effort is involved in developing an Android app.
Fortunately, your satisfaction is no-one's benchmark.
That's strange, it is the only one I ever use.
Some indies have made millions, there is no anecdotal evidence of that happening on the Anrdoid market.
I'm thinking that the demographic favors the Apple ecosystem for folks that pay for apps as opposed to seek open source/free solutions.
In fact if you are not prepared to program - at some level - in C, and C++ ( and/or OpenGL) you are less useful.
Less useful than what? I've done years of real time C/C++ coding and frankly these days I prefer Java and C#. And I can do DirectX in C#/XNA and JOGL in Java. Dalvik could use a bit of refinement but Java and .NET managed code is very performant these days.
Jobs is right, the Flash developer will produce generic boilerplate code - for instance I am eying a new API in OS 4 to do something I couldn't do in OS 3.0. The Flash guy would not even be aware of what was in OS 4.0 vs OS 3.0. Similarly I wouldn't expect a port of Cocoa to Windows to be the best.
Which has little to do with something like monotouch that provides a fairly thin wrapper around the ObjC API calls. That said, you are better off learning ObjC/Cocoa although I wish they had GC working. Perhaps they do in iOS4.
I assume you mean 199,900. Correct, but websites dont make money and yet employ people to write websites. It is expected. iPhone devs dont have to survive on the app store, but on contracts etc. I am looking at a job paying up t £350 a day in London, but that involves a lot of C++ coding in the Backend for the iPhone. I also have apps on the app store. Not making a fortune, but then if it is not my real job all income is extra.[/QUOTE]
Am I imagining things or this place crawling with Debbie Downers lately? Between the trolls, pessimists, and armchair CEOs is there anybody left here to enjoy Apple's products and success? I guess not.
There are. However there are (sadly) enough people who choose to engage the trolls that it does produce an annoying level of crap, even with the ignore lists.
I don't know what compells people to engage the trolls, and frankly I don't really care. I just wish that if they choose to wade into the cesspool with them that they wouldn't quote them so much
Esp. the really lazy people that quote entire posts
And despite the wishes of the trolls, Android isn't passing the iPhone in over all sales any time soon. Android barely outsold Apple in the quarter before Apple's annual product refresh - and that's with fire sales, extensive ad blitzes and "free tethering for everyone". Talk about racing to the bottom; they might actually have to innovate instead of throwing out feature after feature and two for one fire sales.
Today Apple holds a lead with phone apps, but between their limited carriers, offering a single phone model, and the one-two punch to developers of SDK 4.0 and the growing number of arbitary AppStore purgings, we can safely expect that to level off within a year, ceding the majority of development investment to Android.
It would be fun saving this and pointing out how wrong you are in six months and every six months from then on. Except you probably won't be around...
The antitrust enforcers are now checking things out to see if Apple may have fallen off the wagon. There are allegations that they are using unfair tactics to stifle competition, rather than doing what you identify.
Sour grapes from competitors too stupid or lazy to compete with Apple by producing a better experience.
You would think after the regulatory failures in the financial sector and the regulatory failures of government in Katrina (Bush) and now the Gulf (Obama) that people would have learned by now that "the government" isn't a magic bullet.
Yet here are people basically rooting for bogus anti-trust saber rattling for whatever reasons. Pretty pathetic
Apple is no where near qualifying for anti-trust. These investigations will never get past the "investigative" stage. Otherwise you want to tall about fraud, waste and abuse in government
A stronger case than antitrust can be made for "restraint of trade" with regard to dictating developer tools.
You are ignorant of the law. Restrant of trade would be Apple stating that if you develop for the iPhone you can't develop for any other platform.
That's not what Apple is doing.
Apple is saying if you want to play in our sandbox, here are the rules.
What I find fascinating are all the a$$holes who want to criticize Apple for their sanbox, but are continually whining that they can't play in it. Which way is it? You either play by their rules or you don't. But just stop with the arrogant dictating that Apple cater to your every whim. Why can't there be room for both models?
To me, the single greatest benefit of the app store model is it puts the focus on the end user and the end user experience instead of the developers. It's about time.
If you don't like it, there are plenty of other platforms to develop on (and why anti trust crap will go no where).
The reason there is such a fuss about Apple and the app store by developers who are so quick to point out all Apple is doing wrong
Thank goodness Apple and Steve are pretty darn impervious to inane chatter and able to ignore the whining
The relatively small cost of creating a Verizon iPhone outweighs those lost sales.
Not if Verizon is still making unreasonable demands for control.
Every time the Verizon CEO talks about Apple and the iPhone, it's confrontational. I don't see Apple coming to Verizon any time soon. And with the iPad, iPod touch and ironically tethering on Android, the iPhone on Verizon is less of an issue. Apple isn't totally dependent on the iPhone for their ecosystem. All iDevices are pretty much peers. Android is a shambles in comparison and the lackluster web usage stats and lackluster Android app store sales bare this out. An android phone is compelling because aside from everything else it's still a phone, and at the current fire sale prices there isn't much risk for someone who wouldn't normally consider a smartphone to try Android. If the rest of the android ecosystem isn't as compelling as the iOS (to use the new and very welcome rebranding) then why exactly are people going to buy android tablets? Once you get past the gadget freaks and Apple haters who are they going to sell to?
Also, I think AT&T's new lower entry point with their data plan is going to spawn an explosion of new iPhone customers combined with the new hardware and OS coming out later this month - I know at least 5 people who wouldn't have considered an iPhone at the previous monthly rates but are now very interested in the iPhone.
You come too short. They have 28% with one phone, and on one carrier. Once they rectify that they will become a monopoly.
That's another reason I don't see Apple in a hurry to get on Verizon.
Really, it's too easy
Android has had years to be developed. It was openly bought by Google in 2005(?) and we was well known before the iPhone was ever officially announced.
And the real irony is, without Apple and the iPhone it wouldn't be on Verizon.
At least in it's current "open" form
I love selective memory...
Long story short, there are a lot of iPhones out there, but if current trends continue, Android phones will not just outsell, but outnumber iPhones before we know it.
Market share numbers are easy to get - just give "it" away.
Profits are the sticky wicket. Whether Android makes money for developers will be the interesting thing to watch.
Apple put their cards on the table today, yet I suspect we will hear nothing from Google.
Well, maybe some verbal sparring, but I doubt we will see anything of substance like real sales and profit numbers.
Just a hunch - after all as a zealot I could be "overstating" things
So do you think it will eventually be on 90+% of the mobile phones out there?
If it's the 90% of the phones that deliver 20% of the profit, then it's hardly a problem for Apple now, is it? Millions of net books are sold, yet I doubt anyone at Apple is loosing sleep over it. In fact they are probably laughing (all the way to the bank) over net book sales and all the fuss over them.
In other words, the fascination over simple sales numbers is pretty silly and wholly unfruitful.
And more importantly, controlling hard working developers such as myself.
Aha! The real truth comes out.
Enjoy your android phone. Your in the minority. I can guarantee you the people who find the iOS ecosystem desirable don't care one whit about this. They care about the over all experience, and Android doesn't have it. At least not right now. It will be interesting to see if Google and it's "competing with each other" partners can deliver.
Actually, Apple has been outspoken against jail braking an iPhone and said that it voids the warranty.
Why should they have to cover something that if done wrong can brick your phone?!?
If you are a big enough boy to play fast and loose with "your" hardware, what do you care if the warranty is void?
A warranty is a contract with specific limitations, not a fundamental right or unlimited "get out of jail free" card
Sounds like Micro$oft speak to me.
Sounds like ignorant whining from people with unrealistic senses of entitlement.
As a developer
Once again, what a surprise.
If Apple is so evil and you are so eager to have nothing to do with them, why exactly are you hear? I'm not attacking you, I'm really curious for your motivation in posting in an Apple fan site forum.