As Apple shareholder, i was very glad that Steve decided to hold press coverage and implement some offensive on the data being provided on iPhone 4 antenna issue.
Yes there is a problem and due to success and influence of the iPhone in smartphone market this has been focused on by the media and probably blown way out of proportion. Previously someone in this forum posted links of majority of smartphones that have a similar issue and it was ignored by people in 'Apple do not agree camp'.
Some people do not know the difference between antenna strength and dropped calls, calling no names, but there is the issue, people not getting their information right and swearing on their name, that the information their have given is correct. Hmmm
Other hand I do dislike the person, who bullies people with his comments and starts the stupid name calling and he suppose to be successful business person as he pointed out to me several months earlier.
Finally Apple will continue to be successful, this is an issue but not big one and lets try to present our thoughts and discussions without kindergarden behaviour.
Well I'm glad Steve Jobs mentioned the July 30 release for Australia but with 13 days to go still no announcement on the local price. I wonder if Apple Australia will factor in the cost of a bumper. We'll never know.
Many years ago I worked at Sydney TV broadcaster; TCN Channel 9. I remember talking to an engineer who said that beyond the science, dealing with radio frequencies is an art. I totally agree with the view that "mobile" phones are not perfectly reliable; it's just what level of reliability is important to the individual. My (now sold) old iPhone 3G was very satisfactory on the connectivity side and fantastic otherwise. I love it!
The problem as I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong here) is not due to the obstructing effect of a hand as demonstrated with the other brand phones, but the electrical short that occurs when the "beautiful" gap between antennas is bridged. If it's a shorting problem then it's an amazing outcome considering all those 18 PhD engineers Apple has.
One thing I'm unclear on is the 30 day return policy. Is it 30 days from today or more likely 30 days from original purchase? If it's from original purchase it doesn?t leave much time for you early adopters and how long will the policy be in force?
Apple has done the correct thing in offering the cases and full refunds. It was the least they could do and the most they should do. I still intend to get my black iPhone 4, on day one if possible, because I love the design and functionality. The only thing that may make me buy the likes of the Samsung Galaxy S or even the iPhone 3Gs would be a further release delay or excessive price. The local price put me off the iPad by AU$100 and I really-really wanted one too!
Finally, thanks to all you other contributors to these forums. As a low income earner it's a big and important purchase for me and the discussion helps in making an informed decision.
Well I won't bother you anymore, professor. Thank you for deigning to answer me in the first place. BTW, lucky you have solipsism there to tell you what to say, huh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
No offence but I find all this tiresome.
I don't have the energy to respond to this nonsense so I'll just say ...
- "dropped calls" is not the same as reception
- I think you're being overly pedantic about your response to my claims. Yes the comparison was to the 3Gs but the 3Gs is better than the rest already.
In any case this whole debate is just so incredibly stupid that I can't stand it any more.
Bottom line: iPhone 4 is the best phone on the market today by a huge margin in almost every way success and superiority can be measured. This is just a fact no matter what anyone says. The antenna is fantastic, it gets and keeps calls at lower signal readings than any other phone. As long as you keep your fingers off the antenna, it drops less calls than any other phone. The reception is better, and the range at which it operates is larger than the other phones.
I can't wait to get one.
=============
On another note (not in reply to the quote above):
People should just get used to the fact that Apple won this round and get on with their lives. Those that believe that Apple is somehow lying or dissembling about the facts they presented today are basically nutcases. One has to believe that they all got up there and lied, and that's just not credible at all. The CEO and all the top guys (who have a lawsuit against them on the issue no less), are going to get up on stage and lie about this stuff? Seriously?
I like this quote from Jobs to a reporter after the conference, I think it really illustrates what happened here:
(talking about the tech bloggers) ... "In search of eyeballs, people don?t care what they leave in their wake. ? in 34 years haven?t we earned trust and get benefit of the doubt? I am not saying we are not at fault. We are not just innocents in this."
This really sums it up for me. Apple has almost never done the kind of nefarious junk that other companies do every day, yet they get pilloried in the press over and over again. How many times does the tech press have to ascribe nasty motives to Apple and Jobs and be proven totally wrong, before they actually give these guys the benefit of the doubt once or twice?
Apple has always been a great company IMO. Why do we always (well not me but most folks), seem to assume they are lying, conniving, money-grubbing egomaniacs? There has never been any evidence that Apple is like that or that Steve jobs is like that. So why do all the tech bloggers seem to jump to that conclusion? Why do half the posters on this forum immediately look to the dark side of every comment out of Cupertino?
I say we should give these hard-working geniuses the benefit of the doubt and enjoy the wonderful phone that three years ago you wouldn't even have dreamed of. Maybe (shock!) even send Steve Jobs a thank you card once in a while.
The conference if far from a slam dunk because the only press Apple is getting on the iPhone at this point is negative press. I am very good with logic.
Really? The press I'm seeing, from reputable outlets at least, is either swinging slightly positive or at least neutral (while they try to save some face by at least not pulling an abrupt reverse CR maneuver, Even CR is trying to avoid another immediate flip flop).
I think the irrational madness is essentially over, and only the rabid anti-Apple fanatics (Gizmodo and some other anti-Apple blogs, the fandroids and other trolls on AI and elsewhere) will be beating the drum on this, trying desperately to keep it alive, within a day or two. And, even they will soon realize that they've lost all credibility and will crawl back into their basements.
You can tell Steve is slightly peeved about this whole thing. And rightly so when you look at the data. The press have been reporting things out of context. Reporters have an undeserved reputation for intelligence, and there's not enough editorial oversight on some of these web sites.
For those who aren't mathematically inclined, that little wedge shaped thing in front of the 1 means "less than", less than 1, which in this case may be any number between 0 and 1, not inclusive, so maybe 0.99999, or maybe 0.00001, or maybe somewhere in between.
So, for the sake of accuracy, that's <1 additional dropped call per 100 than the 3GS at this period following its release, with no data available to compare to other smartphones, some of which might do better, some worse.
I have a case on my iPhone 4. The first case I bought for a phone. Because I had many dropped calls on my iPhone 4. I had more dropped calls on my iPhone 4 in a few days then I had in 2 years of owning a iPhone 3G & 3GS. And I don't want to consciously always have to think about how to hold the phone differently then what comes naturally. I also used the speedtest.app and was shocked to see how dramatic the download/upload speed changes if I touched the seam in less then idea reception areas. The case fixes the issue, no doubt. And actually I don't mind the case now. I just don't like the way Apple is spinning and dancing around the issue. I think they should be more forthcoming of the issue, and stop pointing fingers at other phones. Because other phones do not have the issue as bad as the iPhone 4. Nor do the other phones have the critical spot in an area so easily touched by naturally holding the phone.
The only spinning and dancing going on is by people like you who hope to be able to continue to spin this against Apple. They laid out the facts and the mainstream press realize they were played like fools by a bunch of bloggers and people like you who want to make this a big thing, even though it isn't.
Quote:
Apple bragged about how much testing they used when developing the iPhone 4. I'm surprised they didn't see this issue a long time ago with all that testing. Seems like they try to have it both ways. They say they do extensive testing in high tech labs, but yet they say they didn't see this issue.
You must never have been involved in the development and testing of anything if this somehow seems contradictory to you.
The only spinning and dancing going on is by people like you who hope to be able to continue to spin this against Apple. They laid out the facts and the mainstream press realize they were played like fools by a bunch of bloggers and people like you who want to make this a big thing, even though it isn't.
Well, that's you opinion. In my opinion, there was a lot of spinning, finger pointing, and whining from Apple. We will see how this plays out in the media and by Apple's customers. Your opinion is not a fact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anonymouse
You must never have been involved in the development and testing of anything if this somehow seems contradictory to you.
I'm a software developer so I'm familiar with development and testing. But I don't go around bragging and patting myself on the back on how much thorough high tech testing we do, in the same breath I'm admitting what I (and many people) consider a pretty big flaw. Then downplay the flaw, and produce numbers that don't accurately reflect the true amount of people affected by the flaw.
Samsung Vibrant And Captivate Suffer 'Death Grip' Too
The Samsung Vibrant recently launched on T-Mobile's network. Guess what, it (and its Captivate cousin) suffer from the same "death grip" issue the iPhone 4 does.
Samsung held a huge launch event for its Galaxy S line of Android handsets in New York City a few weeks ago. During the event, Samsung's media relations staff was sure to take some pot shots at the iPhone 4, and told me, "You can hold the Galaxy S any way you want."
Um, not true.
I have both a Samsung Vibrant and Captivate on hand for testing purposes. In both phones, the internal antenna is apparently located on the back of the phone, towards the very bottom edge. When gripped around the bottom of the phone (with either hand) the signal strength drops almost immediately. The Vibrant went from three bars to zero bars in about five seconds, and the Captivate went from four bars to zero bars in about six seconds. When I let go, the signal returns immediately.
I replicated a similar signal drop with the Microsoft KIN devices a couple of weeks ago. I turned the KIN on, waited for it to connect to Verizon's network and register four bars of service. I then covered it up with both hands. Guess what happened? The signal dropped to two bars.
I don't hear KIN and Samsung Vibrant customers screaming about the "death grip" problem.
What these examples illustrate is how silly and overblown the reaction to the iPhone 4's "death grip" antenna problem really is. Many of the phones I review come with stickers on them. Those stickers often warn users of certain things. One of the stickers I've seen on many phones is one which warns users to avoid touching certain parts of the cell phone in order to not block the antenna. Covering the antenna of just about any cell phone made can result in a drop in signal strength.
Even when the Vibrant and Captivate lost signal strength, neither phone dropped a call, and I was still able to send text messages and surf the mobile web. With the iPhone 4, I never dropped a call or lost a data connection when it was suffering from the "death grip" phenomenon, either.
What's the bottom line here? Cell phones are complicated and complex devices. They have lots of radios (cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, GPS), lots of antennas, and rely on innumerable external factors to work correctly. How far away is the nearest cell tower, is it over a hill, what's standing in the way, are you in a building, are you in an area with overlapping coverage, are you in a moving vehicle, and (yes) how are you holding it? Expecting perfect performance and service 100% of the time is simply not realistic.
I am in no way excusing Apple's behavior and response to this particular issue (so far). I am simply pointing out that Apple isn't the only company on earth to make a phone that experiences signal attenuation when the antenna is obscured.
Hopefully Apple will set everything straight this afternoon so we can all forget about it and move on.
(By the way, Samsung, I have some crow for you to eat.)
I just saw a headline in a major newspaper where I live "Apple CEO admits screw up, offers free cases." That is absolutely not what happened, he pointed out it was an industry-wide problem.
So we have information presented out of context, in a deliberately misleading way, for dramatic effect, in a major paper.
In going for these dramatic effects over the truth, the media these days is nothing more than another branch of the entertainment industry, not something separate and serious.
I just saw a headline in a major newspaper where I live "Apple CEO admits screw up, offers free cases." That is absolutely not what happened, he pointed out it was an industry-wide problem.
So we have information presented out of context, in a deliberately misleading way, for dramatic effect, in a major paper.
In going for these dramatic effects over the truth, the media these days is nothing more than another branch of the entertainment industry, not something separate and serious.
That Was Exactly What Happened!
“We do this because we love our users, and if we screw up, we pick ourselves up and we try harder,” Jobs said...
As very clearly expressed by RIM's CEOs, there really was no need to draw other smartphone manufacturers into to a situation of Apple's own making:
"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple." - Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie
Nasty is as nasty does, and Apple is being so very nasty these days. Removing Field Test Mode is part of it. If 99% of users don't need it, why did Apple include FTM in every previous version of iPhone OS?
Quote:
All I meant was that the average user has no need for a "field test mode" for their phone, it's patently obvious that this is true.
The average user actually does need FTM, because everyone wants the best for their money. FTM helps people discover what's best, even if the knowledge comes indirectly from others who know how to use FTM. FTM costs Apple next to nothing to include. Field Test Mode in iOS4 would help quantify signal strength and attenuation so easily under a wide variety of conditions. Why wouldn't the average user want that capability to be available?
Mmm... yours is one of the opinions that I am really interested in. By your prior discussion, here, you have gone the extra mile (and then some). Today, Apple didn't resolve, or even address your problem. You have gone through the replacement route at least 2 times (that you have posted here). You have, ultimately, returned your iPhone 4 and received credit for restocking fees, ETFs, and even an AppleCare purchase from AT&T.
What do you plan to do now?
.
Thanks for your comments. I have grown tired of other infantile comments that I haven't heard since my playground days many decades ago.
First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock, so show me anyone else who is making critical comments against Apple, as I am, and I would believe their thoughts over anyone who professes to have no financial interest - why in God's name would I take the time to make the comments I've made against this phone, when I loved every aspect of it immensely, except for the reception issue, which was an ultimate deal-breaker for me, when my portfolio stood to drop so much (no, I'm not shorting or leveraged at all - am strictly long). I don't like the feel of bumpers or cases, and never had to use them before on my 3G or 3GS, so don't tell me this is a fix - this sidesteps the issue.
After getting my iP4 on June 23rd, and immediately activating it on ATT, I began to notice the problem, as I always hold the phone in my left hand, to better type on the screen with my right. I got tired of watching my downloads stop completely, so many times, in so many different areas of the city, that I went down to Apple to ask why. The Apple guy blew me off, said he couldn't replicate the issue, so I was out of luck, and sent me back to ATT. Going one block away from the Apple store was all it took to replicate the problem again, getting it to drop data downloading again. This indicated to me that you won't see anyone complaining about dropped data or calls in an Apple store (signal repeaters take care of that, so I'm told) and in returning to the ATT store, I had the self same experience, but only had to go 50 yards away from the ATT store to get it to drop signal integrity again. The folks at ATT had already heard of the problem, as many had already dropped in to complain (this was in the first week after introduction).
So, I have to take issue with anyone who says that, since only .55% of Apple Care complaints have been filed, it is a small problem - this is utter and spurious nonsense. I have been involved with University research for over 20 years, am published, and know how controlled studies are tested and reported. This nonsensical "factoid" from Jobs says nothing about the true rate of the problem, and doesn't even approach non-parametric statistical testing standards (for small samples). I would surmise this was the only data he could lay his hands on, and doubt my encounter at Apple was even recorded, since I didn't have an appointment at the Genius Bar. ATT certainly would be getting the most complaints, but I suppose they don't keep track either, or, at least, Jobs was told to say nothing about ATT's experience by his lawyers.
My own little experiments (non-statistical of course) with 2 other iP4 phones (owned by my patients) gave me identical attenuation results and stopped downloading each time it was tried (at least in my office, which showed a relatively strong cell tower strength of 5 bars of strength with 4.0 software with each iP4 phone, and shows 4 bars now with my 3Gs on 4.0.1 software under the new algorithms. Only had to touch the dreaded "3G spot" lightly in all cases, to get each iP4 phone to stop downloading; the dreaded death grip wasn't necessary.
I had a lengthy discussion with a fellow passenger on the plane to Denver July 2nd. He was, by sheer coincidence, the head sales representative of Bayer International film and coatings division. He has been in the business for over 10 years. He agreed with me that maybe one of their urethane industrial coatings may solve the problem - it is one of the toughest polymer coatings available, and is likely to provide protection and insulation properties - just what you would want. I told him he probably should send an email to Jobs, but I suspect that Apple engineers have already deduced this as a potential option.
Anyhow, after much deliberation, I decided that, while I LOVE the iP4 phone in every way possible, I chose not to tolerate the reception issue, which was never a problem compared to my 3G and 3GS, I decided that the engineers must be working on a fix that involves the antenna (Jobs even let a phrase slip that they may decide to solve the problem by moving the problem out of the way - or words to that effect). This suggest to me that, if I wait a little longer to re-purchase the phone, they will make an antenna adjustment, perhaps move the area of maximum attenuation to the middle of the bottom of the phone (just guessing, since they can't move it to the side or top, so I'm told, due to FCC requirements). I honestly don't believe this is solvable with a software fix, unless you can somehow shift sensitivity to other areas of the antenna to compensate, utilizing software alone (wild-ass guess here). Anyhow, that's my hope for a fix I can live with.
Yes, I went through a lot of trouble getting the iP4, selling my 3G on ebay, returning my iP4, and buying a 3Gs on ebay. Did I do the right thing - for me YES, and let the folks who disagree with my decision respect my right to make my own decision. I tried to approach the problem first with disbelief, then with studied analysis, I believe I have approached it in a reasoned, methodical manner, and, even though I love the phone, I will not be repurchasing this first version of the iP4 unless I give up hope that Apple will provide a hardware fix (once again folks, save the ranting about me being a whiner, crybaby, or whatever, and save your sanctimonious preaching about me using a bumper or case to solve the problem. While I agree that the iP4 may indeed be a better phone all around than the 3G and 3GS, for my type of activity, it didn't quite fill the bill, and the 3Gs is OK (I will miss the screen sharpness, the photo and video capabilities, but most of my activities on the iPhone involve internet surfing, plane vanilla data downloading, and I will not use a bumper or case for a variety of reasons - I loved the Rolex example someone gave earlier - why would I put a beautiful Rolex in a plastic or rubber bumper?
Do I love Apple's products - you bet! do I recommend all of their products - blindly and without reservation - no way. Each to their own, and I respect the ability of us all to agree to disagree on many things. I respect the rational dialogue and discourse, but am intolerant of personal affronts and attacks on my integrity. I am neither a troll nor a fanboi, and will remain as objective as I can on all matters related to my association with Apple products and management.
So.... I don't perceive that I have a problem that should give anyone heartburn, but I do have the facts before me that prompted my decision - please save the recriminations, life it too short, and this is not the forum for schoolyard intolerance.
No, it's a case of taking a single quote of out context. The *overall message* he was delivering was that it is an industry-wide problem, and tests with other high quality phones, and helpdesk statistics, and call-drop statistics prove the iPhone 4 is just like any other phone.
1 dropped call per 100. There are billions of calls a day. That's a lot of dropped calls! \
Its not that. Its actually less then one MORE dropped call per 100 than the 3GS. They didn't publish how many dropped call per 100 the 3GS has. It could be 1 or it could be 50. I don't know if this figure has been published anywhere before.
So it could be anywhere from 1% of calls up to 99% of calls are dropped but I guess we will never know. We also have no way of comparing this to the AT & T average on dropped calls.
The whole point was that the iPhone 4 is barely worse than the 3GS for dropping calls.
Thanks for your comments. I have grown tired of other infantile comments that I haven't heard since my playground days many decades ago.
First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock, so show me anyone else who is making critical comments against Apple, as I am, and I would believe their thoughts over anyone who professes to have no financial interest - why in God's name would I take the time to make the comments I've made against this phone, when I loved every aspect of it immensely, except for the reception issue, which was an ultimate deal-breaker for me, when my portfolio stood to drop so much (no, I'm not shorting or leveraged at all - am strictly long). I don't like the feel of bumpers or cases, and never had to use them before on my 3G or 3GS, so don't tell me this is a fix - this sidesteps the issue.
After getting my iP4 on June 23rd, and immediately activating it on ATT, I began to notice the problem, as I always hold the phone in my left hand, to better type on the screen with my right. I got tired of watching my downloads stop completely, so many times, in so many different areas of the city, that I went down to Apple to ask why. The Apple guy blew me off, said he couldn't replicate the issue, so I was out of luck, and sent me back to ATT. Going one block away from the Apple store was all it took to replicate the problem again, getting it to drop data downloading again. This indicated to me that you won't see anyone complaining about dropped data or calls in an Apple store (signal repeaters take care of that, so I'm told) and in returning to the ATT store, I had the self same experience, but only had to go 50 yards away from the ATT store to get it to drop signal integrity again. The folks at ATT had already heard of the problem, as many had already dropped in to complain (this was in the first week after introduction).
So, I have to take issue with anyone who says that, since only .55% of Apple Care complaints have been filed, it is a small problem - this is utter and spurious nonsense. I have been involved with University research for over 20 years, am published, and know how controlled studies are tested and reported. This nonsensical "factoid" from Jobs says nothing about the true rate of the problem, and doesn't even approach non-parametric statistical testing standards (for small samples). I would surmise this was the only data he could lay his hands on, and doubt my encounter at Apple was even recorded, since I didn't have an appointment at the Genius Bar. ATT certainly would be getting the most complaints, but I suppose they don't keep track either, or, at least, Jobs was told to say nothing about ATT's experience by his lawyers.
My own little experiments (non-statistical of course) with 2 other iP4 phones (owned by my patients) gave me identical attenuation results and stopped downloading each time it was tried (at least in my office, which showed a relatively strong cell tower strength of 5 bars of strength with 4.0 software with each iP4 phone, and shows 4 bars now with my 3Gs on 4.0.1 software under the new algorithms. Only had to touch the dreaded "3G spot" lightly in all cases, to get each iP4 phone to stop downloading; the dreaded death grip wasn't necessary.
I had a lengthy discussion with a fellow passenger on the plane to Denver July 2nd. He was, by sheer coincidence, the head sales representative of Bayer International film and coatings division. He has been in the business for over 10 years. He agreed with me that maybe one of their urethane industrial coatings may solve the problem - it is one of the toughest polymer coatings available, and is likely to provide protection and insulation properties - just what you would want. I told him he probably should send an email to Jobs, but I suspect that Apple engineers have already deduced this as a potential option.
Anyhow, after much deliberation, I decided that, while I LOVE the iP4 phone in every way possible, I chose not to tolerate the reception issue, which was never a problem compared to my 3G and 3GS, I decided that the engineers must be working on a fix that involves the antenna (Jobs even let a phrase slip that they may decide to solve the problem by moving the problem out of the way - or words to that effect). This suggest to me that, if I wait a little longer to re-purchase the phone, they will make an antenna adjustment, perhaps move the area of maximum attenuation to the middle of the bottom of the phone (just guessing, since they can't move it to the side or top, so I'm told, due to FCC requirements). I honestly don't believe this is solvable with a software fix, unless you can somehow shift sensitivity to other areas of the antenna to compensate, utilizing software alone (wild-ass guess here). Anyhow, that's my hope for a fix I can live with.
Yes, I went through a lot of trouble getting the iP4, selling my 3G on ebay, returning my iP4, and buying a 3Gs on ebay. Did I do the right thing - for me YES, and let the folks who disagree with my decision respect my right to make my own decision. I tried to approach the problem first with disbelief, then with studied analysis, I believe I have approached it in a reasoned, methodical manner, and, even though I love the phone, I will not be repurchasing this first version of the iP4 unless I give up hope that Apple will provide a hardware fix (once again folks, save the ranting about me being a whiner, crybaby, or whatever, and save your sanctimonious preaching about me using a bumper or case to solve the problem. While I agree that the iP4 may indeed be a better phone all around than the 3G and 3GS, for my type of activity, it didn't quite fill the bill, and the 3Gs is OK (I will miss the screen sharpness, the photo and video capabilities, but most of my activities on the iPhone involve internet surfing, plane vanilla data downloading, and I will not use a bumper or case for a variety of reasons - I loved the Rolex example someone gave earlier - why would I put a beautiful Rolex in a plastic or rubber bumper?
Do I love Apple's products - you bet! do I recommend all of their products - blindly and without reservation - no way. Each to their own, and I respect the ability of us all to agree to disagree on many things. I respect the rational dialogue and discourse, but am intolerant of personal affronts and attacks on my integrity. I am neither a troll nor a fanboi, and will remain as objective as I can on all matters related to my association with Apple products and management.
So.... I don't perceive that I have a problem that should give anyone heartburn, but I do have the facts before me that prompted my decision - please save the recriminations, life it too short, and this is not the forum for schoolyard intolerance.
Wow, hope you feel better after getting that off your chest. You took it back, I am sure that statement would have done. Thanks for posting.
Comments
Yes there is a problem and due to success and influence of the iPhone in smartphone market this has been focused on by the media and probably blown way out of proportion. Previously someone in this forum posted links of majority of smartphones that have a similar issue and it was ignored by people in 'Apple do not agree camp'.
Some people do not know the difference between antenna strength and dropped calls, calling no names, but there is the issue, people not getting their information right and swearing on their name, that the information their have given is correct. Hmmm
Other hand I do dislike the person, who bullies people with his comments and starts the stupid name calling and he suppose to be successful business person as he pointed out to me several months earlier.
Finally Apple will continue to be successful, this is an issue but not big one and lets try to present our thoughts and discussions without kindergarden behaviour.
If the old bars were never an indication of reception what makes you think the new ones are accurate? Because SJ says so...lol
http://www.anandtech.com/show/3821/i...-41-signal-fix
Many years ago I worked at Sydney TV broadcaster; TCN Channel 9. I remember talking to an engineer who said that beyond the science, dealing with radio frequencies is an art. I totally agree with the view that "mobile" phones are not perfectly reliable; it's just what level of reliability is important to the individual. My (now sold) old iPhone 3G was very satisfactory on the connectivity side and fantastic otherwise. I love it!
The problem as I understand it (please correct me if I'm wrong here) is not due to the obstructing effect of a hand as demonstrated with the other brand phones, but the electrical short that occurs when the "beautiful" gap between antennas is bridged. If it's a shorting problem then it's an amazing outcome considering all those 18 PhD engineers Apple has.
One thing I'm unclear on is the 30 day return policy. Is it 30 days from today or more likely 30 days from original purchase? If it's from original purchase it doesn?t leave much time for you early adopters and how long will the policy be in force?
Apple has done the correct thing in offering the cases and full refunds. It was the least they could do and the most they should do. I still intend to get my black iPhone 4, on day one if possible, because I love the design and functionality. The only thing that may make me buy the likes of the Samsung Galaxy S or even the iPhone 3Gs would be a further release delay or excessive price. The local price put me off the iPad by AU$100 and I really-really wanted one too!
Finally, thanks to all you other contributors to these forums. As a low income earner it's a big and important purchase for me and the discussion helps in making an informed decision.
No offence but I find all this tiresome.
I don't have the energy to respond to this nonsense so I'll just say ...
- "dropped calls" is not the same as reception
- I think you're being overly pedantic about your response to my claims. Yes the comparison was to the 3Gs but the 3Gs is better than the rest already.
In any case this whole debate is just so incredibly stupid that I can't stand it any more.
Bottom line: iPhone 4 is the best phone on the market today by a huge margin in almost every way success and superiority can be measured. This is just a fact no matter what anyone says. The antenna is fantastic, it gets and keeps calls at lower signal readings than any other phone. As long as you keep your fingers off the antenna, it drops less calls than any other phone. The reception is better, and the range at which it operates is larger than the other phones.
I can't wait to get one.
=============
On another note (not in reply to the quote above):
People should just get used to the fact that Apple won this round and get on with their lives. Those that believe that Apple is somehow lying or dissembling about the facts they presented today are basically nutcases. One has to believe that they all got up there and lied, and that's just not credible at all. The CEO and all the top guys (who have a lawsuit against them on the issue no less), are going to get up on stage and lie about this stuff? Seriously?
I like this quote from Jobs to a reporter after the conference, I think it really illustrates what happened here:
(talking about the tech bloggers) ... "In search of eyeballs, people don?t care what they leave in their wake. ? in 34 years haven?t we earned trust and get benefit of the doubt? I am not saying we are not at fault. We are not just innocents in this."
This really sums it up for me. Apple has almost never done the kind of nefarious junk that other companies do every day, yet they get pilloried in the press over and over again. How many times does the tech press have to ascribe nasty motives to Apple and Jobs and be proven totally wrong, before they actually give these guys the benefit of the doubt once or twice?
Apple has always been a great company IMO. Why do we always (well not me but most folks), seem to assume they are lying, conniving, money-grubbing egomaniacs? There has never been any evidence that Apple is like that or that Steve jobs is like that. So why do all the tech bloggers seem to jump to that conclusion? Why do half the posters on this forum immediately look to the dark side of every comment out of Cupertino?
I say we should give these hard-working geniuses the benefit of the doubt and enjoy the wonderful phone that three years ago you wouldn't even have dreamed of. Maybe (shock!) even send Steve Jobs a thank you card once in a while.
1) We acknowledge a problem.
2) We offer you something that solves it -- free bumper
3) Still not satisfied with 1 or 2? Return for full refund. Go find yourself something you like.
So the complainers should do just that: not happy with their solution get something else and be happy.
I love iPhone 4 and wouldn't trade it in for nothing.
The conference if far from a slam dunk because the only press Apple is getting on the iPhone at this point is negative press. I am very good with logic.
Really? The press I'm seeing, from reputable outlets at least, is either swinging slightly positive or at least neutral (while they try to save some face by at least not pulling an abrupt reverse CR maneuver, Even CR is trying to avoid another immediate flip flop).
I think the irrational madness is essentially over, and only the rabid anti-Apple fanatics (Gizmodo and some other anti-Apple blogs, the fandroids and other trolls on AI and elsewhere) will be beating the drum on this, trying desperately to keep it alive, within a day or two. And, even they will soon realize that they've lost all credibility and will crawl back into their basements.
1 dropped call per 100. ...
<1
For those who aren't mathematically inclined, that little wedge shaped thing in front of the 1 means "less than", less than 1, which in this case may be any number between 0 and 1, not inclusive, so maybe 0.99999, or maybe 0.00001, or maybe somewhere in between.
So, for the sake of accuracy, that's <1 additional dropped call per 100 than the 3GS at this period following its release, with no data available to compare to other smartphones, some of which might do better, some worse.
I have a case on my iPhone 4. The first case I bought for a phone. Because I had many dropped calls on my iPhone 4. I had more dropped calls on my iPhone 4 in a few days then I had in 2 years of owning a iPhone 3G & 3GS. And I don't want to consciously always have to think about how to hold the phone differently then what comes naturally. I also used the speedtest.app and was shocked to see how dramatic the download/upload speed changes if I touched the seam in less then idea reception areas. The case fixes the issue, no doubt. And actually I don't mind the case now. I just don't like the way Apple is spinning and dancing around the issue. I think they should be more forthcoming of the issue, and stop pointing fingers at other phones. Because other phones do not have the issue as bad as the iPhone 4. Nor do the other phones have the critical spot in an area so easily touched by naturally holding the phone.
The only spinning and dancing going on is by people like you who hope to be able to continue to spin this against Apple. They laid out the facts and the mainstream press realize they were played like fools by a bunch of bloggers and people like you who want to make this a big thing, even though it isn't.
Apple bragged about how much testing they used when developing the iPhone 4. I'm surprised they didn't see this issue a long time ago with all that testing. Seems like they try to have it both ways. They say they do extensive testing in high tech labs, but yet they say they didn't see this issue.
You must never have been involved in the development and testing of anything if this somehow seems contradictory to you.
The only spinning and dancing going on is by people like you who hope to be able to continue to spin this against Apple. They laid out the facts and the mainstream press realize they were played like fools by a bunch of bloggers and people like you who want to make this a big thing, even though it isn't.
Well, that's you opinion. In my opinion, there was a lot of spinning, finger pointing, and whining from Apple. We will see how this plays out in the media and by Apple's customers. Your opinion is not a fact.
You must never have been involved in the development and testing of anything if this somehow seems contradictory to you.
I'm a software developer so I'm familiar with development and testing. But I don't go around bragging and patting myself on the back on how much thorough high tech testing we do, in the same breath I'm admitting what I (and many people) consider a pretty big flaw. Then downplay the flaw, and produce numbers that don't accurately reflect the true amount of people affected by the flaw.
APPLE offered a refund for those not happy with the solution
Everyone now has 2 alternatives. For those that are still not satisfied the story is history.
The Samsung Vibrant recently launched on T-Mobile's network. Guess what, it (and its Captivate cousin) suffer from the same "death grip" issue the iPhone 4 does.
By Eric Zeman, InformationWeek
July 16, 2010
URL: http://www.informationweek.com/story...leID=225900042
Samsung held a huge launch event for its Galaxy S line of Android handsets in New York City a few weeks ago. During the event, Samsung's media relations staff was sure to take some pot shots at the iPhone 4, and told me, "You can hold the Galaxy S any way you want."
Um, not true.
I have both a Samsung Vibrant and Captivate on hand for testing purposes. In both phones, the internal antenna is apparently located on the back of the phone, towards the very bottom edge. When gripped around the bottom of the phone (with either hand) the signal strength drops almost immediately. The Vibrant went from three bars to zero bars in about five seconds, and the Captivate went from four bars to zero bars in about six seconds. When I let go, the signal returns immediately.
I replicated a similar signal drop with the Microsoft KIN devices a couple of weeks ago. I turned the KIN on, waited for it to connect to Verizon's network and register four bars of service. I then covered it up with both hands. Guess what happened? The signal dropped to two bars.
I don't hear KIN and Samsung Vibrant customers screaming about the "death grip" problem.
What these examples illustrate is how silly and overblown the reaction to the iPhone 4's "death grip" antenna problem really is. Many of the phones I review come with stickers on them. Those stickers often warn users of certain things. One of the stickers I've seen on many phones is one which warns users to avoid touching certain parts of the cell phone in order to not block the antenna. Covering the antenna of just about any cell phone made can result in a drop in signal strength.
Even when the Vibrant and Captivate lost signal strength, neither phone dropped a call, and I was still able to send text messages and surf the mobile web. With the iPhone 4, I never dropped a call or lost a data connection when it was suffering from the "death grip" phenomenon, either.
What's the bottom line here? Cell phones are complicated and complex devices. They have lots of radios (cellular, Wi-Fi, Bluetooth, GPS), lots of antennas, and rely on innumerable external factors to work correctly. How far away is the nearest cell tower, is it over a hill, what's standing in the way, are you in a building, are you in an area with overlapping coverage, are you in a moving vehicle, and (yes) how are you holding it? Expecting perfect performance and service 100% of the time is simply not realistic.
I am in no way excusing Apple's behavior and response to this particular issue (so far). I am simply pointing out that Apple isn't the only company on earth to make a phone that experiences signal attenuation when the antenna is obscured.
Hopefully Apple will set everything straight this afternoon so we can all forget about it and move on.
(By the way, Samsung, I have some crow for you to eat.)
So we have information presented out of context, in a deliberately misleading way, for dramatic effect, in a major paper.
In going for these dramatic effects over the truth, the media these days is nothing more than another branch of the entertainment industry, not something separate and serious.
I just saw a headline in a major newspaper where I live "Apple CEO admits screw up, offers free cases." That is absolutely not what happened, he pointed out it was an industry-wide problem.
So we have information presented out of context, in a deliberately misleading way, for dramatic effect, in a major paper.
In going for these dramatic effects over the truth, the media these days is nothing more than another branch of the entertainment industry, not something separate and serious.
That Was Exactly What Happened!
“We do this because we love our users, and if we screw up, we pick ourselves up and we try harder,” Jobs said...
As very clearly expressed by RIM's CEOs, there really was no need to draw other smartphone manufacturers into to a situation of Apple's own making:
"Apple's attempt to draw RIM into Apple's self-made debacle is unacceptable. Apple's claims about RIM products appear to be deliberate attempts to distort the public's understanding of an antenna design issue and to deflect attention from Apple's difficult situation. RIM is a global leader in antenna design and has been successfully designing industry-leading wireless data products with efficient and effective radio performance for over 20 years. During that time, RIM has avoided designs like the one Apple used in the iPhone 4 and instead has used innovative designs which reduce the risk for dropped calls, especially in areas of lower coverage. One thing is for certain, RIM's customers don't need to use a case for their BlackBerry smartphone to maintain proper connectivity. Apple clearly made certain design decisions and it should take responsibility for these decisions rather than trying to draw RIM and others into a situation that relates specifically to Apple." - Mike Lazaridis and Jim Balsillie
Looks like the boys have a lot of fun with those facilities.
All we consumers need for our own testing is to have Field Test Mode restored in the next iOS 4 update.
I second that.
Keep your shirt on and stop being so nasty.
Nasty is as nasty does, and Apple is being so very nasty these days. Removing Field Test Mode is part of it. If 99% of users don't need it, why did Apple include FTM in every previous version of iPhone OS?
All I meant was that the average user has no need for a "field test mode" for their phone, it's patently obvious that this is true.
The average user actually does need FTM, because everyone wants the best for their money. FTM helps people discover what's best, even if the knowledge comes indirectly from others who know how to use FTM. FTM costs Apple next to nothing to include. Field Test Mode in iOS4 would help quantify signal strength and attenuation so easily under a wide variety of conditions. Why wouldn't the average user want that capability to be available?
Mmm... yours is one of the opinions that I am really interested in. By your prior discussion, here, you have gone the extra mile (and then some). Today, Apple didn't resolve, or even address your problem. You have gone through the replacement route at least 2 times (that you have posted here). You have, ultimately, returned your iPhone 4 and received credit for restocking fees, ETFs, and even an AppleCare purchase from AT&T.
What do you plan to do now?
.
Thanks for your comments. I have grown tired of other infantile comments that I haven't heard since my playground days many decades ago.
First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock, so show me anyone else who is making critical comments against Apple, as I am, and I would believe their thoughts over anyone who professes to have no financial interest - why in God's name would I take the time to make the comments I've made against this phone, when I loved every aspect of it immensely, except for the reception issue, which was an ultimate deal-breaker for me, when my portfolio stood to drop so much (no, I'm not shorting or leveraged at all - am strictly long). I don't like the feel of bumpers or cases, and never had to use them before on my 3G or 3GS, so don't tell me this is a fix - this sidesteps the issue.
After getting my iP4 on June 23rd, and immediately activating it on ATT, I began to notice the problem, as I always hold the phone in my left hand, to better type on the screen with my right. I got tired of watching my downloads stop completely, so many times, in so many different areas of the city, that I went down to Apple to ask why. The Apple guy blew me off, said he couldn't replicate the issue, so I was out of luck, and sent me back to ATT. Going one block away from the Apple store was all it took to replicate the problem again, getting it to drop data downloading again. This indicated to me that you won't see anyone complaining about dropped data or calls in an Apple store (signal repeaters take care of that, so I'm told) and in returning to the ATT store, I had the self same experience, but only had to go 50 yards away from the ATT store to get it to drop signal integrity again. The folks at ATT had already heard of the problem, as many had already dropped in to complain (this was in the first week after introduction).
So, I have to take issue with anyone who says that, since only .55% of Apple Care complaints have been filed, it is a small problem - this is utter and spurious nonsense. I have been involved with University research for over 20 years, am published, and know how controlled studies are tested and reported. This nonsensical "factoid" from Jobs says nothing about the true rate of the problem, and doesn't even approach non-parametric statistical testing standards (for small samples). I would surmise this was the only data he could lay his hands on, and doubt my encounter at Apple was even recorded, since I didn't have an appointment at the Genius Bar. ATT certainly would be getting the most complaints, but I suppose they don't keep track either, or, at least, Jobs was told to say nothing about ATT's experience by his lawyers.
My own little experiments (non-statistical of course) with 2 other iP4 phones (owned by my patients) gave me identical attenuation results and stopped downloading each time it was tried (at least in my office, which showed a relatively strong cell tower strength of 5 bars of strength with 4.0 software with each iP4 phone, and shows 4 bars now with my 3Gs on 4.0.1 software under the new algorithms. Only had to touch the dreaded "3G spot" lightly in all cases, to get each iP4 phone to stop downloading; the dreaded death grip wasn't necessary.
I had a lengthy discussion with a fellow passenger on the plane to Denver July 2nd. He was, by sheer coincidence, the head sales representative of Bayer International film and coatings division. He has been in the business for over 10 years. He agreed with me that maybe one of their urethane industrial coatings may solve the problem - it is one of the toughest polymer coatings available, and is likely to provide protection and insulation properties - just what you would want. I told him he probably should send an email to Jobs, but I suspect that Apple engineers have already deduced this as a potential option.
Anyhow, after much deliberation, I decided that, while I LOVE the iP4 phone in every way possible, I chose not to tolerate the reception issue, which was never a problem compared to my 3G and 3GS, I decided that the engineers must be working on a fix that involves the antenna (Jobs even let a phrase slip that they may decide to solve the problem by moving the problem out of the way - or words to that effect). This suggest to me that, if I wait a little longer to re-purchase the phone, they will make an antenna adjustment, perhaps move the area of maximum attenuation to the middle of the bottom of the phone (just guessing, since they can't move it to the side or top, so I'm told, due to FCC requirements). I honestly don't believe this is solvable with a software fix, unless you can somehow shift sensitivity to other areas of the antenna to compensate, utilizing software alone (wild-ass guess here). Anyhow, that's my hope for a fix I can live with.
Yes, I went through a lot of trouble getting the iP4, selling my 3G on ebay, returning my iP4, and buying a 3Gs on ebay. Did I do the right thing - for me YES, and let the folks who disagree with my decision respect my right to make my own decision. I tried to approach the problem first with disbelief, then with studied analysis, I believe I have approached it in a reasoned, methodical manner, and, even though I love the phone, I will not be repurchasing this first version of the iP4 unless I give up hope that Apple will provide a hardware fix (once again folks, save the ranting about me being a whiner, crybaby, or whatever, and save your sanctimonious preaching about me using a bumper or case to solve the problem. While I agree that the iP4 may indeed be a better phone all around than the 3G and 3GS, for my type of activity, it didn't quite fill the bill, and the 3Gs is OK (I will miss the screen sharpness, the photo and video capabilities, but most of my activities on the iPhone involve internet surfing, plane vanilla data downloading, and I will not use a bumper or case for a variety of reasons - I loved the Rolex example someone gave earlier - why would I put a beautiful Rolex in a plastic or rubber bumper?
Do I love Apple's products - you bet! do I recommend all of their products - blindly and without reservation - no way. Each to their own, and I respect the ability of us all to agree to disagree on many things. I respect the rational dialogue and discourse, but am intolerant of personal affronts and attacks on my integrity. I am neither a troll nor a fanboi, and will remain as objective as I can on all matters related to my association with Apple products and management.
So.... I don't perceive that I have a problem that should give anyone heartburn, but I do have the facts before me that prompted my decision - please save the recriminations, life it too short, and this is not the forum for schoolyard intolerance.
That Was Exactly What Happened!
No, it's a case of taking a single quote of out context. The *overall message* he was delivering was that it is an industry-wide problem, and tests with other high quality phones, and helpdesk statistics, and call-drop statistics prove the iPhone 4 is just like any other phone.
1 dropped call per 100. There are billions of calls a day. That's a lot of dropped calls!
Its not that. Its actually less then one MORE dropped call per 100 than the 3GS. They didn't publish how many dropped call per 100 the 3GS has. It could be 1 or it could be 50. I don't know if this figure has been published anywhere before.
So it could be anywhere from 1% of calls up to 99% of calls are dropped but I guess we will never know. We also have no way of comparing this to the AT & T average on dropped calls.
The whole point was that the iPhone 4 is barely worse than the 3GS for dropping calls.
Thanks for your comments. I have grown tired of other infantile comments that I haven't heard since my playground days many decades ago.
First of all, for anyone who may be interested, I have virtually all my IRA and individual account money in Apple stock, so show me anyone else who is making critical comments against Apple, as I am, and I would believe their thoughts over anyone who professes to have no financial interest - why in God's name would I take the time to make the comments I've made against this phone, when I loved every aspect of it immensely, except for the reception issue, which was an ultimate deal-breaker for me, when my portfolio stood to drop so much (no, I'm not shorting or leveraged at all - am strictly long). I don't like the feel of bumpers or cases, and never had to use them before on my 3G or 3GS, so don't tell me this is a fix - this sidesteps the issue.
After getting my iP4 on June 23rd, and immediately activating it on ATT, I began to notice the problem, as I always hold the phone in my left hand, to better type on the screen with my right. I got tired of watching my downloads stop completely, so many times, in so many different areas of the city, that I went down to Apple to ask why. The Apple guy blew me off, said he couldn't replicate the issue, so I was out of luck, and sent me back to ATT. Going one block away from the Apple store was all it took to replicate the problem again, getting it to drop data downloading again. This indicated to me that you won't see anyone complaining about dropped data or calls in an Apple store (signal repeaters take care of that, so I'm told) and in returning to the ATT store, I had the self same experience, but only had to go 50 yards away from the ATT store to get it to drop signal integrity again. The folks at ATT had already heard of the problem, as many had already dropped in to complain (this was in the first week after introduction).
So, I have to take issue with anyone who says that, since only .55% of Apple Care complaints have been filed, it is a small problem - this is utter and spurious nonsense. I have been involved with University research for over 20 years, am published, and know how controlled studies are tested and reported. This nonsensical "factoid" from Jobs says nothing about the true rate of the problem, and doesn't even approach non-parametric statistical testing standards (for small samples). I would surmise this was the only data he could lay his hands on, and doubt my encounter at Apple was even recorded, since I didn't have an appointment at the Genius Bar. ATT certainly would be getting the most complaints, but I suppose they don't keep track either, or, at least, Jobs was told to say nothing about ATT's experience by his lawyers.
My own little experiments (non-statistical of course) with 2 other iP4 phones (owned by my patients) gave me identical attenuation results and stopped downloading each time it was tried (at least in my office, which showed a relatively strong cell tower strength of 5 bars of strength with 4.0 software with each iP4 phone, and shows 4 bars now with my 3Gs on 4.0.1 software under the new algorithms. Only had to touch the dreaded "3G spot" lightly in all cases, to get each iP4 phone to stop downloading; the dreaded death grip wasn't necessary.
I had a lengthy discussion with a fellow passenger on the plane to Denver July 2nd. He was, by sheer coincidence, the head sales representative of Bayer International film and coatings division. He has been in the business for over 10 years. He agreed with me that maybe one of their urethane industrial coatings may solve the problem - it is one of the toughest polymer coatings available, and is likely to provide protection and insulation properties - just what you would want. I told him he probably should send an email to Jobs, but I suspect that Apple engineers have already deduced this as a potential option.
Anyhow, after much deliberation, I decided that, while I LOVE the iP4 phone in every way possible, I chose not to tolerate the reception issue, which was never a problem compared to my 3G and 3GS, I decided that the engineers must be working on a fix that involves the antenna (Jobs even let a phrase slip that they may decide to solve the problem by moving the problem out of the way - or words to that effect). This suggest to me that, if I wait a little longer to re-purchase the phone, they will make an antenna adjustment, perhaps move the area of maximum attenuation to the middle of the bottom of the phone (just guessing, since they can't move it to the side or top, so I'm told, due to FCC requirements). I honestly don't believe this is solvable with a software fix, unless you can somehow shift sensitivity to other areas of the antenna to compensate, utilizing software alone (wild-ass guess here). Anyhow, that's my hope for a fix I can live with.
Yes, I went through a lot of trouble getting the iP4, selling my 3G on ebay, returning my iP4, and buying a 3Gs on ebay. Did I do the right thing - for me YES, and let the folks who disagree with my decision respect my right to make my own decision. I tried to approach the problem first with disbelief, then with studied analysis, I believe I have approached it in a reasoned, methodical manner, and, even though I love the phone, I will not be repurchasing this first version of the iP4 unless I give up hope that Apple will provide a hardware fix (once again folks, save the ranting about me being a whiner, crybaby, or whatever, and save your sanctimonious preaching about me using a bumper or case to solve the problem. While I agree that the iP4 may indeed be a better phone all around than the 3G and 3GS, for my type of activity, it didn't quite fill the bill, and the 3Gs is OK (I will miss the screen sharpness, the photo and video capabilities, but most of my activities on the iPhone involve internet surfing, plane vanilla data downloading, and I will not use a bumper or case for a variety of reasons - I loved the Rolex example someone gave earlier - why would I put a beautiful Rolex in a plastic or rubber bumper?
Do I love Apple's products - you bet! do I recommend all of their products - blindly and without reservation - no way. Each to their own, and I respect the ability of us all to agree to disagree on many things. I respect the rational dialogue and discourse, but am intolerant of personal affronts and attacks on my integrity. I am neither a troll nor a fanboi, and will remain as objective as I can on all matters related to my association with Apple products and management.
So.... I don't perceive that I have a problem that should give anyone heartburn, but I do have the facts before me that prompted my decision - please save the recriminations, life it too short, and this is not the forum for schoolyard intolerance.
Wow, hope you feel better after getting that off your chest. You took it back, I am sure that statement would have done. Thanks for posting.