It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
This is unscientific but:
I live in a fringe area. I have tried various grips with a BB Curve, a Motorola W385, a 3GS and a 4. The death grip on the 4 drops 24 db and the indication changes to no service from 5 bars (pre-patch ios4). The curve, the 385, and the 3GS all will maintain a call connection.
If I use a bumper on the 4 or wear a glove, it gives the best connection and audio quality of the group. Lowest noise, no artifacts. Great phone. Just don't hold it in your hand in a secure manner.
Point is: of course a persons body and hands are going to affect signal strength. The Apple antenna problem is extreme and was totally avoidable. Observed on the 4: 24 db loss. On the 3GS: 5 db (actually a 3 to 5 db gain if you turn the phone upside down).
So, I think it is valid to say that Apple still likes to deflect and deny instead of just manning up. But what the hay, at least they are addressing the problem.
I think that the RIM executives are the pot calling the kettle black. How can they deny the video proof that their phones have the exact same problem? The hand in the video held their phone using fingertips and then with the palm and fingers encircling it with a normal grip. Their bars dropped just the same as the other phones.
Nobody likes being caught in their hypocrisy but it happens.
I disagree that Apple was out of line in any way here.
Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
I agree with you that I don't think they were way out of line, but a response like this was probably to be expected. RIM and Nokia have probably been in something of a panic as they have seen the rise of Apple, and you can't blame them for poking at a chink in the armour.
I think that the RIM executives are the pot calling the kettle black. How can they deny the video proof that their phones have the exact same problem? The hand in the video held their phone using fingertips and then with the palm and fingers encircling it with a normal grip. Their bars dropped just the same as the other phones.
Nobody likes being caught in their hypocrisy but it happens.
Precisely.
The real take away from these statements from RIM and Nokia is that while they are filled with a lot of bluster, there is no where in either statement where they maintain that Apple is lying or that the videos of their phones dropping signal were faked.
If those videos Apple showed of Nokia and Blackberries doing the same thing as iPhone 4 were fake, the lawyers would already be involved. They aren't, so ipso facto, the videos are real and the problem is both industry wide and unavoidable.
People tend to not get angry unless you have hit a sore spot or pointed out something that they don't want you to know, THEN the get Angry because you have pointed out weak spot.
Its been my experience that anger like this is centered around secrets and positioning of PR, guess what folks, its not really been a secret just not been highlighted that much until now
Boo Hoo For RIM
I'm still having some issues with my phone4 and am not 100% satisfied but I am not at all Angry about it, good grief.
If nothing yesterday made me feel like Apple in the long run will do the right thing
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
I can understand that they would be upset Apple is calling them out when consumers obviously haven't had significant problems (since we didn't hear about death-grips until Apple pointed to them). At the same time, Steve Jobs did say that he didn't think it would have been such an issue because all phones do it, and if he hadn't proved it, there'd be more trouble. Nokia, especially, has almost no right to be upset since they were making fun of Apple for it.
RIM did sort of get dragged into this, but a consumer who takes even a moment to think will realize Apple isn't insulting RIM - if RIM has the same bar drop but no one noticed before, it means phones can still work with some attenuation (or de-tuning, or what-have-you) so Blackberry or iPhone or whatever, maybe parts of the media really did blow this out of proportion. They're simply proving this is a common issue; they aren't dragging anyone through mud.
By the way, having seen in the bottom of your post that you are waiting until October for a hardware fix, what sort of thing will you consider a "fix"?
I can't see how they can stop the attenuation effects of your hand being close to the antenna, unless they put it inside the phone, and I don't see them changing the appearance of the phone at the moment.
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
The amount of the signal drop, by itself, doesn't say ANYTHING. If the antenna is more sensitive to begin with, and then loses more signal when partially blocked, it can still end up more, or as, sensitive as a phone with an antenna that is less sensitive to begin with. The conclusion that Apple came to when testing the external antenna, that the net result was more performant, is born out by the return/dropped call rate for iPhone 4.
I disagree that Apple was out of line in any way here.
Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
Yep and along those lines 2oh1, WSJ reports the problem like the Audi 5000 was drivers depressing the accelerator by mistake!
My wife has a Nokia E71. We get 5 bars at our house. With all 5 bars showing, if you grab the E71 in the same way as the iPhone 4 deathgrip, the signal meter on the phone drops to either 1 or no bars. This is 100% reproducible.
By the way, having seen in the bottom of your post that you are waiting until October for a hardware fix, what sort of thing will you consider a "fix"?
I can't see how they can stop the attenuation effects of your hand being close to the antenna, unless they put it inside the phone, and I don't see them changing the appearance of the phone at the moment.
And, even if they do move it inside the case, you will still have attenuation as it is a common problem no matter where you put the antenna. He will not be a buyer regardless. He just likes to bash Apple. It doesn't take long reading his posts to figure that one out.
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
Hogwash. Apple actually did exactly the right thing. They put the other manufacturers on their heels. It's obvious that many smart phones show the EXACT same behavior as the iPhone 4. Pretending that this is just an Apple problem is just as idiotic as pretending that there is no problem whatsoever. Apple's decision to show how the death grip works on other manufacturer's hardware is exactly what any good marketing department would do: Put the rest of the industry on the defensive.
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
I disagree. Nokia and others already had made fun of Apple despite themselves having similar problems.
Historically, Apple executes very well and when they do fall short, their competitors love to make a big deal out of it. Sometimes I think Apple's own customers need to take a pause and remember that Apple is comprised of human beings with human flaws. They will make mistakes from time to time.
Apple isn't perfect, but I have been far happier with their computers, mp3 players and phones than those made by other companies. If I have ever had an issue, they have always made things right.
RIM and NOKIA make good products, but like it or not some of their phones have the very same flaw. I know that they'd prefer no one point that out, but they do. Apple had no choice but to address this when the very same companies and the media are blowing this all out of proportion and making it sound like an iPhone 4 problem only.
Apple admitted that the iPhone 4 isn't perfect and that they are working hard to rectify the situation. But, in the meantime, here is a free bumper. We understand it is not a fix but a work-around, but it will alleviate the problem for the time being. If you are still unhappy, we'll refund your money.
Comments
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
This is unscientific but:
I live in a fringe area. I have tried various grips with a BB Curve, a Motorola W385, a 3GS and a 4. The death grip on the 4 drops 24 db and the indication changes to no service from 5 bars (pre-patch ios4). The curve, the 385, and the 3GS all will maintain a call connection.
If I use a bumper on the 4 or wear a glove, it gives the best connection and audio quality of the group. Lowest noise, no artifacts. Great phone. Just don't hold it in your hand in a secure manner.
Point is: of course a persons body and hands are going to affect signal strength. The Apple antenna problem is extreme and was totally avoidable. Observed on the 4: 24 db loss. On the 3GS: 5 db (actually a 3 to 5 db gain if you turn the phone upside down).
So, I think it is valid to say that Apple still likes to deflect and deny instead of just manning up. But what the hay, at least they are addressing the problem.
(and not extend the existing patent suit either)
Nobody likes being caught in their hypocrisy but it happens.
I disagree that Apple was out of line in any way here.
Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
I agree with you that I don't think they were way out of line, but a response like this was probably to be expected. RIM and Nokia have probably been in something of a panic as they have seen the rise of Apple, and you can't blame them for poking at a chink in the armour.
I think that the RIM executives are the pot calling the kettle black. How can they deny the video proof that their phones have the exact same problem? The hand in the video held their phone using fingertips and then with the palm and fingers encircling it with a normal grip. Their bars dropped just the same as the other phones.
Nobody likes being caught in their hypocrisy but it happens.
Precisely.
The real take away from these statements from RIM and Nokia is that while they are filled with a lot of bluster, there is no where in either statement where they maintain that Apple is lying or that the videos of their phones dropping signal were faked.
If those videos Apple showed of Nokia and Blackberries doing the same thing as iPhone 4 were fake, the lawyers would already be involved. They aren't, so ipso facto, the videos are real and the problem is both industry wide and unavoidable.
"As you would expect from a company focused on people, we prioritize antenna performance over physical design if they are ever in conflict."
That probably explains the Nokia X5 then:
Its been my experience that anger like this is centered around secrets and positioning of PR, guess what folks, its not really been a secret just not been highlighted that much until now
Boo Hoo For RIM
I'm still having some issues with my phone4 and am not 100% satisfied but I am not at all Angry about it, good grief.
If nothing yesterday made me feel like Apple in the long run will do the right thing
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
I can understand that they would be upset Apple is calling them out when consumers obviously haven't had significant problems (since we didn't hear about death-grips until Apple pointed to them). At the same time, Steve Jobs did say that he didn't think it would have been such an issue because all phones do it, and if he hadn't proved it, there'd be more trouble. Nokia, especially, has almost no right to be upset since they were making fun of Apple for it.
RIM did sort of get dragged into this, but a consumer who takes even a moment to think will realize Apple isn't insulting RIM - if RIM has the same bar drop but no one noticed before, it means phones can still work with some attenuation (or de-tuning, or what-have-you) so Blackberry or iPhone or whatever, maybe parts of the media really did blow this out of proportion. They're simply proving this is a common issue; they aren't dragging anyone through mud.
De-tuning is not attenuation.
Indeed it is not, and here is a good explanation of the difference:
http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...?currentPage=2
By the way, having seen in the bottom of your post that you are waiting until October for a hardware fix, what sort of thing will you consider a "fix"?
I can't see how they can stop the attenuation effects of your hand being close to the antenna, unless they put it inside the phone, and I don't see them changing the appearance of the phone at the moment.
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
The amount of the signal drop, by itself, doesn't say ANYTHING. If the antenna is more sensitive to begin with, and then loses more signal when partially blocked, it can still end up more, or as, sensitive as a phone with an antenna that is less sensitive to begin with. The conclusion that Apple came to when testing the external antenna, that the net result was more performant, is born out by the return/dropped call rate for iPhone 4.
I disagree that Apple was out of line in any way here.
Remember the Toyotas-won't-stop problem from a few months ago? If the issue wasn't a Toyota issue, but instead a problem that was universal to all cars (or all sedans, regardless of the carmaker), you're damn right that I'd have wanted Toyota to point that out.
Yep and along those lines 2oh1, WSJ reports the problem like the Audi 5000 was drivers depressing the accelerator by mistake!
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...S=toyota+tests
Holy crap!
I actually had to google that phone model because I couldn't believe that was a real picture of a real phone! ...Unbelievable.
Nokia needs a nice, warm cup of STFU.
Indeed it is not, and here is a good explanation of the difference:
http://www.antennasys.com/antennasys...?currentPage=2
By the way, having seen in the bottom of your post that you are waiting until October for a hardware fix, what sort of thing will you consider a "fix"?
I can't see how they can stop the attenuation effects of your hand being close to the antenna, unless they put it inside the phone, and I don't see them changing the appearance of the phone at the moment.
And, even if they do move it inside the case, you will still have attenuation as it is a common problem no matter where you put the antenna. He will not be a buyer regardless. He just likes to bash Apple. It doesn't take long reading his posts to figure that one out.
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
Hogwash. Apple actually did exactly the right thing. They put the other manufacturers on their heels. It's obvious that many smart phones show the EXACT same behavior as the iPhone 4. Pretending that this is just an Apple problem is just as idiotic as pretending that there is no problem whatsoever. Apple's decision to show how the death grip works on other manufacturer's hardware is exactly what any good marketing department would do: Put the rest of the industry on the defensive.
It is, but RIM was right in what they said. Apple used other examples to divert attention to their specific problem, which is signal decrease higher than the norm in terms of dbm. There was no need to draw them into this, especially if they weren't going to be thorough in the style of anandtech and show exactly how this counts in terms of dbm and how it affects the performance of the phones.
I disagree. Nokia and others already had made fun of Apple despite themselves having similar problems.
Apple isn't perfect, but I have been far happier with their computers, mp3 players and phones than those made by other companies. If I have ever had an issue, they have always made things right.
RIM and NOKIA make good products, but like it or not some of their phones have the very same flaw. I know that they'd prefer no one point that out, but they do. Apple had no choice but to address this when the very same companies and the media are blowing this all out of proportion and making it sound like an iPhone 4 problem only.
Apple admitted that the iPhone 4 isn't perfect and that they are working hard to rectify the situation. But, in the meantime, here is a free bumper. We understand it is not a fix but a work-around, but it will alleviate the problem for the time being. If you are still unhappy, we'll refund your money.
Personally, I'm cool with that.