I don't know, maybe the RIM guy is on to something. Look how well all those 7" netbooks have done. Fully 5% of the netbooks NewEgg carries are 8.9" or smaller. Clearly, that's a pretty huge market, and consumers are excited to check email and watch movies on 7" screens. </sarcasm>
I'm not talking about market share, I'm talking about bragging rights.
Oh. Bragging rights?
Wait until the 4th quarter results are in, and see if "team iOs" will be bragging.
iOs does not now have dominant mindshhare. go to Google News and check out the smartphone section. the iPhone is barely mentioned, with HP and Android and Win7 being the hot topics.
Again - in a few months, after Xmas, and if market share and mindshare are something that makes you feel good, well, do your enjoying in the past.
Again - in a few months, after Xmas, and if market share and mindshare are something that makes you feel good, well, do your enjoying in the past.
Who cares about market share? Heck, RIM could get back to 80% market share if they simply gave away their product. Honda Civics, perfectly decent cars, far outsell BMW's. Who would you say has greater mindshare among consumers?
Android's a great commodity platform, and everyone knows it should have twice Apple's market share in 5 years or so. But platform fragmentation, lower margins, and the natural friction among all of its players will make it a less cohesive platform. Great for college students, hackers, and those on a budget. Apple will continue to lead when it comes to innovation, profitability, and brand image.
You used to have to stop and consider a comment for a second, but between Arch, appl and jfanning the caliber of trolling has really become pretty weak.
Take Arch?s comment?s about the battery life. He makes no specific statements about Android models and states no actual testing he?s done (the first two clues). Add in independent sites actually testing these handsets and you see how these guys are really just talking out their asses.
I'm amazed that the Droid X gets such long battery life. It has a HUGE screen. Apple could learn something about design trade-offs from it.
I kind of wondered where SJ was coming from on that one. If 7" is too small for a touch interface isn't that sort of a problem for an iPhone and iPod Touch as well.
Jobs' strongest argument against the 7-inch tablet is that it can't compete with the phone in terms of mobility, and can't compete with the 10-inch tablet in terms of usability. The problem is not that it's too small in of itself. Obviously, a phone is even smaller.
Apple's CEO Discusses F4Q10 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
October 18, 2010
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smartphone, its ease of fitting into your pocket or purse, its unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd. Given that all tablet users will already have a smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in our pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The seven-inch tablets are tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad.
Wait until the 4th quarter results are in, and see if "team iOs" will be bragging.
iOs does not now have dominant mindshhare. go to Google News and check out the smartphone section. the iPhone is barely mentioned, with HP and Android and Win7 being the hot topics.
Again - in a few months, after Xmas, and if market share and mindshare are something that makes you feel good, well, do your enjoying in the past.
Deny the past and pray for the future. Sounds like Steve Balmer's MSFT strategy.
Wow! This is what I have been saying all along! And I have been attacked, insulted and repeatedly banned for it. Glad to know there are SOME normal people in the world.
You know, I believe you and Balsillie really are "cut from the same cloth". Balsillie acted like a clueless, boorish oaf in his "dealings" with the NHL while trying to buy a franchise until the NHL just got tired of his actions and basically told him ... don't call us, we'll call you. He's still doesn't own a franchise.
If I were you I'd look for someone else to "follow".
Thirdly, I agree, integration trumps fragmentation. Many times on this board I have said that although Google software is free, it is still too fragmented when compared to Apple.
I completely agree. The more Apple products I've purchased, the more integrated everything has become and the more seamless and efficient my computing devices have become. It would be hard to move away from this and because of this, when I wanted a new phone recently, the iPhone was the ONLY smartphone option for me. I either got an iPhone that played well with everything I had or got a basic mobile phone for just making calls (and used my iPod Touch for everything else). I'm so glad I got my iPhone.
Now, let's enter the real world and use our brains.
Let's make all the assumptions as favorable to your argument as possible. Now:
- A 7" screen has roughly 1/2 the area of a 10" screen. So let's assume that the case thickness is zero and the thickness of a 7" iPad is the same as a 10" iPad. That means that the internal volume of a 7" iPad would be 1/2 of the volume of a 10" iPad.
Now, let's look at internal volumes:
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc volumes would be the same in the 10" and 7" iPads. So the battery volume in the 7" would have to reduced by MORE than 50%.
Power usage?
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc batter usage would be the same. Let's assume that screen energy usage is proportional to its area, so it would be 50% lower (again, it would actually use MORE than 1/2 the energy of the 10", but we're biasing everything your way).
So, battery volume would be considerably LESS than 1/2 the iPad, but energy usage would be considerably MORE than 1/2 of the iPad.
Result? Dismal battery life.
Good analysis. Except the iPad has a lot of extra room in the case.
I believe that Apple could engineer an acceptable battery for a 7" form factor.
If Apple ever does offer a 7" iPad, likely, this is how it will go:
Steve:
We've listened to our customers who want some thing between the iPod Touch and the iPad.
We've looked around and the 7" tablets out there really don't do the job.
Well, We've found a way -- we re-thought the requirements and redesigned an integrated hardware and software solution from the ground up
-- better display
-- better UI 3-Access elements
-- better battery life - 11 hours
-- thinner lighter weight
-- Dynamic resolution independence
-- all the Touch and iPad apps will run unmodified
-- all the advantages of a 7" tablet with none of the disadvantages
-- all the typical Apple goodness
-- fits in most larger pockets-- Suit, Shorts, Camos, LabCoats...
when I wanted a new phone recently, the iPhone was the ONLY smartphone option for me
My condolences. This sort of lock-in is both annoying and not necessary. It is too bad that open standards don't exist, so that you have choice. I think some companies like to use open standards, and others are closed so they can lock you in.
On 3G, the iPhone gets 50% larger battery life compared to the Droid X which as a 22% larger screen (by diagonal size) but fewer pixels.
So what's that about trade-offs?
The Droid has a big, beautiful screen AND great battery life. Seemingly, Motorola didn't let the balance tip too far one way or the other, and got the trade-offs both into a sweet, sweet spot.
Your arithmetic and specsmanship don't appeal to average consumers.
That point is that a considerable portion of iPads power budget goes to lighting up the screen. You don't take this into account below and then mis on other issues.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
Now, let's enter the real world and use our brains.
Let's make all the assumptions as favorable to your argument as possible. Now:
- A 7" screen has roughly 1/2 the area of a 10" screen. So let's assume that the case thickness is zero and the thickness of a 7" iPad is the same as a 10" iPad. That means that the internal volume of a 7" iPad would be 1/2 of the volume of a 10" iPad.
Now, let's look at internal volumes:
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc volumes would be the same in the 10" and 7" iPads. So the battery volume in the 7" would have to reduced by MORE than 50%.
You make assumptions above that aren't supported by currently shipping hardware. In fact iPhone 4 ships with more RAM. IPad with its rather large PC board also ships with plenty of free space inside its case. Given all of this info building a seven inch class device with even more battery life should be easy.
Quote:
Power usage?
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc batter usage would be the same. Let's assume that screen energy usage is proportional to its area, so it would be 50% lower (again, it would actually use MORE than 1/2 the energy of the 10", but we're biasing everything your way).
So, battery volume would be considerably LESS than 1/2 the iPad, but energy usage would be considerably MORE than 1/2 of the iPad.
It should be fairly easy for Apple to pack the same capacity into a seven inch machine. As to power usage of the back light it is not a given what the usage will be like. Power could be significantly less as they improve LED back lighting.
Quote:
Result? Dismal battery life.
Or not! Besides whos to say that theydon't have a process shrunk A4 ready or a new Cortex A9 based chip ready to go. Remember we are talking a future product here which would likely be based on future hardware.
Quote:
And I see nothing supporting anything you've said - except your own delusions. If you ever have facts, feel free to present them.
So where are your facts. You gloss right over the main issue here which is power to the screen. You say they can't cut it in half but then don't back up your statements.
Quote:
Windows 7 better than OS X in every way? Only if your an IT guru relying on customer support for your job security.
Well that I can agree with. However IT gurus actually trying to cut support costs are very likely to look at iPad seriously.
I wouldn't want a 7inch display but I would happily take a 7.4 inch display. One with a retina display resolution of 326pixels per inch in a 5.89 x 4.42 inch unit giving 1920 x 1440 resolution.
That would be awesome. Great for in car video watch in full HD, but enough resolution to be able to read safari on a small display.
My wife complains that the 9.7 inch unit is too big and too heavy. She also complains that the iPod Touch is too small. She would like a medium sized unit around 7-8 inches.
Steve is right, and wrong at the same time. The iPad screen is an ideal size for the iPad's interface. A 7" screen is too small to be efficient and would be extremely cramped. However iPhone screens are 3.5" and perfectly usable. It's all about how you design the UI.
I agree with Steve that the 10" iPad is the ideal size, but he is either intentionally deflecting or failing to understand that the competition is going to sell millions of 7" tablets even if they're not the ideal size.
I don't know if that is true.
For example, the best shown so far is the Samsung Galaxy Tab. They plan to build 100,000 a month.
I think Apple has a significant advantage in economies of scale -- less-expensive parts and production costs, pre-ordered (reserved) parts and production lines/facilities.
The Pixel Qi people they can manufacture a display for $20 -- but they can't schedule any production as the lines are not available,
There is a lot more to this game then appears to the naked eye -- and Tim Cook is master of the game.
Comments
I'm not talking about market share, I'm talking about bragging rights.
Oh. Bragging rights?
Wait until the 4th quarter results are in, and see if "team iOs" will be bragging.
iOs does not now have dominant mindshhare. go to Google News and check out the smartphone section. the iPhone is barely mentioned, with HP and Android and Win7 being the hot topics.
Again - in a few months, after Xmas, and if market share and mindshare are something that makes you feel good, well, do your enjoying in the past.
3) Based on RiM?s CEO comments about openness I have to assume that BB OS is an open OS
You know what they say about you when you assume?
Again - in a few months, after Xmas, and if market share and mindshare are something that makes you feel good, well, do your enjoying in the past.
Who cares about market share? Heck, RIM could get back to 80% market share if they simply gave away their product. Honda Civics, perfectly decent cars, far outsell BMW's. Who would you say has greater mindshare among consumers?
Android's a great commodity platform, and everyone knows it should have twice Apple's market share in 5 years or so. But platform fragmentation, lower margins, and the natural friction among all of its players will make it a less cohesive platform. Great for college students, hackers, and those on a budget. Apple will continue to lead when it comes to innovation, profitability, and brand image.
You used to have to stop and consider a comment for a second, but between Arch, appl and jfanning the caliber of trolling has really become pretty weak.
Take Arch?s comment?s about the battery life. He makes no specific statements about Android models and states no actual testing he?s done (the first two clues). Add in independent sites actually testing these handsets and you see how these guys are really just talking out their asses.
I'm amazed that the Droid X gets such long battery life. It has a HUGE screen. Apple could learn something about design trade-offs from it.
I kind of wondered where SJ was coming from on that one. If 7" is too small for a touch interface isn't that sort of a problem for an iPhone and iPod Touch as well.
Jobs' strongest argument against the 7-inch tablet is that it can't compete with the phone in terms of mobility, and can't compete with the 10-inch tablet in terms of usability. The problem is not that it's too small in of itself. Obviously, a phone is even smaller.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2307...all-transcript
Apple's CEO Discusses F4Q10 Results - Earnings Call Transcript
October 18, 2010
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smartphone, its ease of fitting into your pocket or purse, its unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd. Given that all tablet users will already have a smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in our pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The seven-inch tablets are tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad.
Oh. Bragging rights?
Wait until the 4th quarter results are in, and see if "team iOs" will be bragging.
iOs does not now have dominant mindshhare. go to Google News and check out the smartphone section. the iPhone is barely mentioned, with HP and Android and Win7 being the hot topics.
Again - in a few months, after Xmas, and if market share and mindshare are something that makes you feel good, well, do your enjoying in the past.
Deny the past and pray for the future. Sounds like Steve Balmer's MSFT strategy.
.
Let me see if I have this right?
This co-guy, Balsillie, conducts an event to introduce the PlayBook Tablet
He shows some video of something -- a touchless touch interface
He walks around stage with a slab with something that looks like XMAS wrapping pasted on the front -- that he never even looks at or holds it up
He announces that the highly-efficient Flash will provide the GUI
He announces some mondo specs
-- 1 GHz Dual Core Processor
-- 1 GB RAM
-- Dual Everything
-- Support for every programming language known to man
-- Cell radio support for 0G, 1G, 2G, 3G, LTE, 5G
-- 17 connecter orifices - including 1 for a winch
-- yadda, yadda, yadda
He doesn't know what it will cost.
He doesn't know when it will be available.
He doesn't know it's battery life.
He can't show you one because, it doesn't exist.
Now, that's a reality distortion field!
Steve Jobs could learn from him!
... not too interested in the device...
... but, can I buy me some of those specs... separately?
.
Did he just give the specs of a laptop??
Wow! This is what I have been saying all along! And I have been attacked, insulted and repeatedly banned for it. Glad to know there are SOME normal people in the world.
You know, I believe you and Balsillie really are "cut from the same cloth". Balsillie acted like a clueless, boorish oaf in his "dealings" with the NHL while trying to buy a franchise until the NHL just got tired of his actions and basically told him ... don't call us, we'll call you. He's still doesn't own a franchise.
If I were you I'd look for someone else to "follow".
Who cares about market share?
I think Steve does. He seems to bring it up often. Indeed, he just brought it up during a conference call.
You use yours, I'll work mine.
Keep in mind I'm comparing a 9" iPad to a 9.7" version. I'm not talking about 7" tablets.
First of all, there's no such thing - even in rumor.
Second, if you do the math, the result is the same. You would significantly reduce battery life in order to save that 1/2".
Thirdly, I agree, integration trumps fragmentation. Many times on this board I have said that although Google software is free, it is still too fragmented when compared to Apple.
I completely agree. The more Apple products I've purchased, the more integrated everything has become and the more seamless and efficient my computing devices have become. It would be hard to move away from this and because of this, when I wanted a new phone recently, the iPhone was the ONLY smartphone option for me. I either got an iPhone that played well with everything I had or got a basic mobile phone for just making calls (and used my iPod Touch for everything else). I'm so glad I got my iPhone.
problem for most CEO's competing with Apple is that they likely have a better product but people still buy Apple.
it's a headscratching exercise for most.....
you can list half a dozen products in the relevant sectors (mp3, phone etc.) that are better than anything Apple has offered or will offer.
Macs are rubbish for the money and iTunes is a joke.
they are masters in 'desperately average'
I fully agree with Mr RIM and I hope he finds a solution soon.
From a guy who obviously has never used a Mac, or iTunes on a Mac.
Now, let's enter the real world and use our brains.
Let's make all the assumptions as favorable to your argument as possible. Now:
- A 7" screen has roughly 1/2 the area of a 10" screen. So let's assume that the case thickness is zero and the thickness of a 7" iPad is the same as a 10" iPad. That means that the internal volume of a 7" iPad would be 1/2 of the volume of a 10" iPad.
Now, let's look at internal volumes:
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc volumes would be the same in the 10" and 7" iPads. So the battery volume in the 7" would have to reduced by MORE than 50%.
Power usage?
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc batter usage would be the same. Let's assume that screen energy usage is proportional to its area, so it would be 50% lower (again, it would actually use MORE than 1/2 the energy of the 10", but we're biasing everything your way).
So, battery volume would be considerably LESS than 1/2 the iPad, but energy usage would be considerably MORE than 1/2 of the iPad.
Result? Dismal battery life.
Good analysis. Except the iPad has a lot of extra room in the case.
I believe that Apple could engineer an acceptable battery for a 7" form factor.
If Apple ever does offer a 7" iPad, likely, this is how it will go:
Steve:
We've listened to our customers who want some thing between the iPod Touch and the iPad.
We've looked around and the 7" tablets out there really don't do the job.
Well, We've found a way -- we re-thought the requirements and redesigned an integrated hardware and software solution from the ground up
-- better display
-- better UI 3-Access elements
-- better battery life - 11 hours
-- thinner lighter weight
-- Dynamic resolution independence
-- all the Touch and iPad apps will run unmodified
-- all the advantages of a 7" tablet with none of the disadvantages
-- all the typical Apple goodness
-- fits in most larger pockets-- Suit, Shorts, Camos, LabCoats...
... and the price will start at $279...
... it's available, for pre-order today!
... shipments starta at the end of the month.
Let me show it to you, now...
.
I'm amazed that the Droid X gets such long battery life. It has a HUGE screen. Apple could learn something about design trade-offs from it.
On 3G, the iPhone gets 50% larger battery life compared to the Droid X which as a 22% larger screen (by diagonal size) but fewer pixels.
So what's that about trade-offs?
when I wanted a new phone recently, the iPhone was the ONLY smartphone option for me
My condolences. This sort of lock-in is both annoying and not necessary. It is too bad that open standards don't exist, so that you have choice. I think some companies like to use open standards, and others are closed so they can lock you in.
On 3G, the iPhone gets 50% larger battery life compared to the Droid X which as a 22% larger screen (by diagonal size) but fewer pixels.
So what's that about trade-offs?
The Droid has a big, beautiful screen AND great battery life. Seemingly, Motorola didn't let the balance tip too far one way or the other, and got the trade-offs both into a sweet, sweet spot.
Your arithmetic and specsmanship don't appeal to average consumers.
Now, let's enter the real world and use our brains.
Let's make all the assumptions as favorable to your argument as possible. Now:
- A 7" screen has roughly 1/2 the area of a 10" screen. So let's assume that the case thickness is zero and the thickness of a 7" iPad is the same as a 10" iPad. That means that the internal volume of a 7" iPad would be 1/2 of the volume of a 10" iPad.
Now, let's look at internal volumes:
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc volumes would be the same in the 10" and 7" iPads. So the battery volume in the 7" would have to reduced by MORE than 50%.
You make assumptions above that aren't supported by currently shipping hardware. In fact iPhone 4 ships with more RAM. IPad with its rather large PC board also ships with plenty of free space inside its case. Given all of this info building a seven inch class device with even more battery life should be easy.
Power usage?
A4 processor, SOC, RAM, etc batter usage would be the same. Let's assume that screen energy usage is proportional to its area, so it would be 50% lower (again, it would actually use MORE than 1/2 the energy of the 10", but we're biasing everything your way).
So, battery volume would be considerably LESS than 1/2 the iPad, but energy usage would be considerably MORE than 1/2 of the iPad.
It should be fairly easy for Apple to pack the same capacity into a seven inch machine. As to power usage of the back light it is not a given what the usage will be like. Power could be significantly less as they improve LED back lighting.
Result? Dismal battery life.
Or not! Besides whos to say that theydon't have a process shrunk A4 ready or a new Cortex A9 based chip ready to go. Remember we are talking a future product here which would likely be based on future hardware.
And I see nothing supporting anything you've said - except your own delusions. If you ever have facts, feel free to present them.
So where are your facts. You gloss right over the main issue here which is power to the screen. You say they can't cut it in half but then don't back up your statements.
Windows 7 better than OS X in every way? Only if your an IT guru relying on customer support for your job security.
Well that I can agree with. However IT gurus actually trying to cut support costs are very likely to look at iPad seriously.
That would be awesome. Great for in car video watch in full HD, but enough resolution to be able to read safari on a small display.
My wife complains that the 9.7 inch unit is too big and too heavy. She also complains that the iPod Touch is too small. She would like a medium sized unit around 7-8 inches.
Steve is right, and wrong at the same time. The iPad screen is an ideal size for the iPad's interface. A 7" screen is too small to be efficient and would be extremely cramped. However iPhone screens are 3.5" and perfectly usable. It's all about how you design the UI.
I agree with Steve that the 10" iPad is the ideal size, but he is either intentionally deflecting or failing to understand that the competition is going to sell millions of 7" tablets even if they're not the ideal size.
I don't know if that is true.
For example, the best shown so far is the Samsung Galaxy Tab. They plan to build 100,000 a month.
I think Apple has a significant advantage in economies of scale -- less-expensive parts and production costs, pre-ordered (reserved) parts and production lines/facilities.
The Pixel Qi people they can manufacture a display for $20 -- but they can't schedule any production as the lines are not available,
There is a lot more to this game then appears to the naked eye -- and Tim Cook is master of the game.
.