Well, NoahJ, you have managed to create quite a controversy. Or rather, a public discussion of religion with no particular direction. Fine and good. Howzabout another thread with an actual, single topic? Y'know, rather than a bunch of individual conversations with NoahJ with everyone listening, an actual multiperson conversation on a particular subject. You can even take one of the sub-topics here - why does God have the right to defy his own laws?
or
Why does God save the "righteous" sometimes? (Lot)
or
Did God mean for us to live as long as we do? (Studies that study times predating God's "creation" 5000 years ago indicate that people rarely lived beyond thirty without medicine)
<strong>Well, NoahJ, you have managed to create quite a controversy. Or rather, a public discussion of religion with no particular direction. Fine and good. Howzabout another thread with an actual, single topic? Y'know, rather than a bunch of individual conversations with NoahJ with everyone listening, an actual multiperson conversation on a particular subject. You can even take one of the sub-topics here - why does God have the right to defy his own laws?
or
Why does God save the "righteous" sometimes? (Lot)
or
Did God mean for us to live as long as we do? (Studies that study times predating God's "creation" 5000 years ago indicate that people rarely lived beyond thirty without medicine)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, be my guest. The stated intent of this thread is "Where should religious beliefs be based on if not the Bible". That is not that broad. However, some do not feel constrained by the topic and have decided to attack me, or my beliefs, or just go off topic base don what they feel they want to talk about. If you want to start a topic with a very specific purpose and enforce that people stick to it. Go ahead. I will probably even post to it if it interests me. Otherwise, it is not my fault that people cannot stick tothe topic. I answer their questions and sometimes accusations. If people don;t like it, they will stop posting and it will be relagated to the bottm of the list soon enough. For now, the topic is obviously sparking a bit of interest from everyone, with me seemingly answering all the questions (although I have asked for others to give their input, with very little forthcoming.)
From what I understand Greek and Hebrew has no word for superstitions and such as well since they took it for granted that the spirit realm was as real as the physical. Your point is?
NoahJ</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okiedokie. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you: I was involved in a minor flame fracas about Ariel Sharon.
The point is this.
The religious impulse is an evolutionary mechanism developed to help us survive in very inhospitable environments. Do have a look at my post again.
Religion didn't come to us as we became 'advanced' enough to ask the right questions and articulate enough to express our answers to ourselves. God didn't wait around until he thought we were ready for him.
You're utterly, utterly convinced your guy's pulling the strings because our ancestors would have died if they didn't believe and it's a hardwired condition you've got.
And the Old Testament, to get back to the thread, is a collection of Sumerian, Arhamaic and sundry ancient Semitic myths that've been kicking around for thousands of years. But it is a good read, I grant you.
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
Okiedokie. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you: I was involved in a minor flame fracas about Ariel Sharon.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So I read...
[quote]<strong>The point is this.
The religious impulse is an evolutionary mechanism developed to help us survive in very inhospitable environments. Do have a look at my post again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Read it thoroughly. Disagree with much of it. Not all, but much.
[quote]<strong>Religion didn't come to us as we became 'advanced' enough to ask the right questions and articulate enough to express our answers to ourselves. God didn't wait around until he thought we were ready for him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When have I ever said this? When have I ever put forth this balogna? Never.
[quote]<strong>You're utterly, utterly convinced your guy's pulling the strings because our ancestors would have died if they didn't believe and it's a hardwired condition you've got.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again, I said this when? How are you getting this from what I have posted anyhow? People can live their lives without following God. I just don't recommend it as the stop at the end, death, is a rough place to go when you are not "saved". There must be something lost (or added) in the translation that I am missing.
[quote]<strong>And the Old Testament, to get back to the thread, is a collection of Sumerian, Arhamaic and sundry ancient Semitic myths that've been kicking around for thousands of years. But it is a good read, I grant you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't have the time to argue any points on this, I can see it will go nowhere anyhow.
Well since you've completely ignored this aside from saying you disagree, I think I'll post it again.
Noah, your god is evil. Your god is cruel. You worship a sadistic deity.
Premise: Operating under the Christian set of rules, God is evil and cruel.
"Fact" - God is all powerful.
"Fact" - There exists a Satan.
"Fact" - Satan is a source of evil and cruelty in this world.
-Since god is all powerful, he decides whether or not satan performs certain acts or even exists.
-God can stop satan any time he wants to because god is all powerful.
-God chooses not to stop satan from performing evil and cruel acts, thus endorsing satan's acts through god's own inaction.
Conclusion: God performs evil and cruel acts upon humanity by allowing satan to perform such acts. God is evil and cruel because he has the power to stop evil and cruel acts from occurring, yet does nothing.
EiF: Read my post. Not ignored, I just haven't had the time to address it specifically. You have no patience. There are some very tough questions in there that answers cannot just be spouted off on.
<strong>I have ohter threads up right now where religious beliefs are discussed form many sides. Some have tried to derail those threads by posting arguments that the discussion is irrelevant becasue they are based on the Bible. A book that they claim is innacurate and unsupportable. So, in order to keep the other thread on topic and to give said people a place to vent about it, where should a persons religious beliefs come from? The bible according to you is off the table (I disagree and will explain why if I get any good responses here), so where should they come from. I am interested to see what kind of answers I get here, if any at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gee, I don't know, Noah - The Koran? The Upanishads? The Tibetan Book of the Dead? Personally, I think trying to suggest that a universal concept like religion and a culturally specific object like the Bible should be synonymous is a tad on the blinkered side. Since all the orthodox religions clash dramatically in their views, the only truly logical stance to take is to dismiss all of them IMHO. I'm interested in spirituality, but not in the dust-gathering ossification of religious dogma. So The Blue Meanie's answer would be: actual experience of the (seemingly) spiritual instead of blind faith in second-hand dogma. (But then again, they do say that if you talk to God, you're a saint; if God talks to you, you're schizophrenic )
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
<strong>Gee, I don't know, Noah - The Koran? The Upanishads? The Tibetan Book of the Dead?
[snip]
So The Blue Meanie's answer would be: actual experience of the (seemingly) spiritual instead of blind faith in second-hand dogma.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When you pull out all the snide comments and witty (I suppose) reparte this seems to be what your answer boils down to. Correct?
[edit] placed the books back in as I did ask what books.
When you pull out all the snide comments and witty (I suppose) reparte this seems to be what your answer boils down to. Correct?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You've conveniently left out all the other "holy" books of other religions. Oh ya, I forgot...you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an arrogant son of a bitch for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.
And I swore I wouldn't sully myself by arguing about religion with a zealot on a public forum when I've got tonnes of work to do...
[quote]
Me:
Religion didn't come to us as we became 'advanced' enough to ask the right questions and articulate enough to express our answers to ourselves. God didn't wait around until he thought we were ready for him.
NoahJ:
When have I ever said this? When have I ever put forth this balogna? Never. <hr></blockquote>
You're quite right: you never said this. You see, I did. It's what I said. My suggestion.
It's why the first peoples to come out of Africa had all sorts of complex and sophisticated religious ideas from the off. And none of them had anything to do with a man with a beard and a brigade of angels. (All that monotheistic stuff comes from the last 10,000 years or so.)
[quote]
Me:
You're utterly, utterly convinced your guy's pulling the strings because our ancestors would have died if they didn't believe and it's a hardwired condition you've got.
NoahJ / Jesus
Once again, I said this when? How are you getting this from what I have posted anyhow? People can live their lives without following God. I just don't recommend it as the stop at the end, death, is a rough place to go when you are not "saved". There must be something lost (or added) in the translation that I am missing. <hr></blockquote>
No, you see, thing is, that's my hypothesis there too. No sir, you didn't say that: I DID!
So let me put it another way (Lord above, WHY am I bothering? I've got work to do): it's evolution! You believe as though your life depended on it because for our ancestors, that was actually true: lives did depend on belief! And it's deep in your noggin! And the Bible is no more or no less true than the /Xam prayers addressed to the New Moon and the Mantis Kaggen!
Only arguably less useful in a day-to-day, keep-a-body-alive-in-an-arid-semi-desert sort of sense.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>And I swore I wouldn't sully myself by arguing about religion with a zealot on a public forum when I've got tonnes of work to do...
No, you see, thing is, that's my hypothesis there too. No sir, you didn't say that: I DID!
So let me put it another way (Lord above, WHY am I bothering? I've got work to do): it's evolution! You believe as though your life depended on it because for our ancestors, that was actually true: lives did depend on belief! And it's deep in your noggin! And the Bible is no more or no less true than the /Xam prayers addressed to the New Moon and the Mantis Kaggen!
Only arguably less useful in a day-to-day, keep-a-body-alive-in-an-arid-semi-desert sort of sense.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you for the clarification. The way it was posted it looked as though you were saying that I had said those things. I was quite confused. Anyhow, once again, thanks.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
You've conveniently left out all the other "holy" books of other religions. Oh ya, I forgot...you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an arrogant son of a bitch for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are correct, I did leave out the books, my bad.
But still we resort to name calling and a hatred that I really do not feel I have earned.
You are correct, I did leave out the books, my bad.
But still we resort to name calling and a hatred that I really do not feel I have earned. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Instead of being offended by the tamest of name calling, how about you instead respond to this:
you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an <expletive deleted because Noah is too easily offended> for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>
Instead of being offended by the tamest of name calling, how about you instead respond to this:
you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an <expletive deleted because Noah is too easily offended> for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Big problem, nobody is born a Christian. Being born into a Christian family does not make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds all the time makes you a hamburger. It is a way of life, not a birthright like being Jewish.
You have not proven anything. You have laid out an argument which I have not taken the time to dispute yet as I still need time to look it over. Lack of response does not mean you have proven anything, it means the other side has not responded.
Also, if you notice I ignored most of your previous heckling and tried to answer your main points (when I had teh answer available), but the attitude of hatred towards me is so pervasive in your posts that I will not ignore it any longer.
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>Meh, close enough. It doesn't really affect my argument.
Premise: Operating under the Christian set of rules, God is evil and cruel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, lets look at your premise. You can feel however you like about this when I am done, but at least I will have answered you question.
[quote]<strong>"Fact" - God is all powerful.
"Fact" - There exists a Satan.
"Fact" - Satan is a source of evil and cruelty in this world.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. Probably for the last time in this post.
[quote]<strong>-Since god is all powerful, he decides whether or not satan performs certain acts or even exists.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong. God is all powerful, but has allowed free will in His creation. He allows satan to exist and allows him to make his own evil choices, but he does not decide what those choices are.
[quote]<strong>-God can stop satan any time he wants to because god is all powerful.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, as a basic priciple.
[quote]<strong>-God chooses not to stop satan from performing evil and cruel acts, thus endorsing satan's acts through god's own inaction.</strong><hr></blockquote>
False. God does not stop anyone from doing evil things. But he does hold them responsible for their actions when the time comes. This is part and parcel with free will. Any judgement you receive will be due to your own actions and choices. not "what God allowed you to do through his endorsment of your sins". Nice try though.
[quote]<strong>Conclusion: God performs evil and cruel acts upon humanity by allowing satan to perform such acts. God is evil and cruel because he has the power to stop evil and cruel acts from occurring, yet does nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong, as shown through my rebuttles. There will be a price to pay in the end, and satan will pay fully for his actions. But until then, it is up to humans and their free will to choose which they wish to follow, satan or God. That is what it comes down to.
Wrong, as shown through my rebuttles. There will be a price to pay in the end, and satan will pay fully for his actions. But until then, it is up to humans and their free will to choose which they wish to follow, satan or God. That is what it comes down to.
Your god has the power to stop evil and yet he doesn't claiming he'll sort everything out in the end. He can't mess with free will. Well, that's analogous to a police officer holding a shotgun to a criminal's head allowing the criminal to go on a rampage killing many people and then after the rampage is over, pulling the trigger. That's called too little, too late. The police officer could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to. The police officer is just as guilty as the criminal. God could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to.
If I had the power to stop an evil act from occuring, I would stop it. See, I'm more benevolent than your freaking cruel bastard of a god. BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND WORSHIP THE BENEVOLENT ONE.
I really don't care if satan will pay fully for his actions after the fact. God could have stopped them but his inaction was just as much of a crime. Will god pay for his inactions?
All you are saying is that god uses free will as an excuse to have front row seats to a bloodbath that he could stop at any time and he'll try to make it all right in the end by punishing the pawns in his sick, twisted, sadistic little game.
Your god is evil. Your god is cruel. Worship me, for I am benevolent.
EDIT: Fixed random typos.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
"when people speak badly of you, you should respond in this way: keep a steady heart and don't reply with harsh words. practice letting go of resentment and accepting that other's hostility is the spur to your understanding. "
[quote]Originally posted by Exercise in Frivolity:
<strong>Your god has the power to stop evil and yet he doesn't claiming he'll sort everything out in the end. He can't mess with free will. Well, that's analogous to a police officer holding a shotgun to a criminal's head allowing the criminal to go on a rampage killing many people and then after the rampage is over, pulling the trigger. That's called too little, too late. The police officer could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to. The police officer is just as guilty as the criminal. God could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What has Satan done to you lately? Really? He is a source of evil and misery. He does not cause it directly. Usually you will find that is done through normal humans who through their free will make bad decisions. maybe you would be happy if God started vaporizing people tomorrow for their sins. Oh wait, God carrying out his judgment makes him cruel and evil. The words damned if you do, damned if you don't come to mind.
[quote]<strong>If I had the power to stop an evil act from occuring, I would stop it. See, I'm more benevolent than your freaking cruel bastard of a god. BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND WORSHIP THE BENEVOLENT ONE. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Aren't we special? And an egomaniac as well.
[quote]<strong>I really don't care if satan will pay fully for his actions after the fact. God could have stopped them but his inaction was just as much of a crime. Will god pay for his inactions?
All you are saying is that god uses free will as an excuse to have front row seats to a bloodbath that he could stop at any time and he'll try to make it all right in the end by punishing the pawns in his sick, twisted, sadistic little game.
Your god is evil. Your god is cruel. Worship me, for I am benevolent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
or
Why does God save the "righteous" sometimes? (Lot)
or
Did God mean for us to live as long as we do? (Studies that study times predating God's "creation" 5000 years ago indicate that people rarely lived beyond thirty without medicine)
<strong>Well, NoahJ, you have managed to create quite a controversy. Or rather, a public discussion of religion with no particular direction. Fine and good. Howzabout another thread with an actual, single topic? Y'know, rather than a bunch of individual conversations with NoahJ with everyone listening, an actual multiperson conversation on a particular subject. You can even take one of the sub-topics here - why does God have the right to defy his own laws?
or
Why does God save the "righteous" sometimes? (Lot)
or
Did God mean for us to live as long as we do? (Studies that study times predating God's "creation" 5000 years ago indicate that people rarely lived beyond thirty without medicine)</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hey, be my guest. The stated intent of this thread is "Where should religious beliefs be based on if not the Bible". That is not that broad. However, some do not feel constrained by the topic and have decided to attack me, or my beliefs, or just go off topic base don what they feel they want to talk about. If you want to start a topic with a very specific purpose and enforce that people stick to it. Go ahead. I will probably even post to it if it interests me. Otherwise, it is not my fault that people cannot stick tothe topic. I answer their questions and sometimes accusations. If people don;t like it, they will stop posting and it will be relagated to the bottm of the list soon enough. For now, the topic is obviously sparking a bit of interest from everyone, with me seemingly answering all the questions (although I have asked for others to give their input, with very little forthcoming.)
<strong>Hassan i Sabbah,
From what I understand Greek and Hebrew has no word for superstitions and such as well since they took it for granted that the spirit realm was as real as the physical. Your point is?
NoahJ</strong><hr></blockquote>
Okiedokie. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you: I was involved in a minor flame fracas about Ariel Sharon.
The point is this.
The religious impulse is an evolutionary mechanism developed to help us survive in very inhospitable environments. Do have a look at my post again.
Religion didn't come to us as we became 'advanced' enough to ask the right questions and articulate enough to express our answers to ourselves. God didn't wait around until he thought we were ready for him.
You're utterly, utterly convinced your guy's pulling the strings because our ancestors would have died if they didn't believe and it's a hardwired condition you've got.
And the Old Testament, to get back to the thread, is a collection of Sumerian, Arhamaic and sundry ancient Semitic myths that've been kicking around for thousands of years. But it is a good read, I grant you.
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>
Okiedokie. Sorry it took me so long to get back to you: I was involved in a minor flame fracas about Ariel Sharon.</strong><hr></blockquote>
So I read...
[quote]<strong>The point is this.
The religious impulse is an evolutionary mechanism developed to help us survive in very inhospitable environments. Do have a look at my post again.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Read it thoroughly. Disagree with much of it. Not all, but much.
[quote]<strong>Religion didn't come to us as we became 'advanced' enough to ask the right questions and articulate enough to express our answers to ourselves. God didn't wait around until he thought we were ready for him.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When have I ever said this? When have I ever put forth this balogna? Never.
[quote]<strong>You're utterly, utterly convinced your guy's pulling the strings because our ancestors would have died if they didn't believe and it's a hardwired condition you've got.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again, I said this when? How are you getting this from what I have posted anyhow? People can live their lives without following God. I just don't recommend it as the stop at the end, death, is a rough place to go when you are not "saved". There must be something lost (or added) in the translation that I am missing.
[quote]<strong>And the Old Testament, to get back to the thread, is a collection of Sumerian, Arhamaic and sundry ancient Semitic myths that've been kicking around for thousands of years. But it is a good read, I grant you.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't have the time to argue any points on this, I can see it will go nowhere anyhow.
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
Noah, your god is evil. Your god is cruel. You worship a sadistic deity.
Premise: Operating under the Christian set of rules, God is evil and cruel.
"Fact" - God is all powerful.
"Fact" - There exists a Satan.
"Fact" - Satan is a source of evil and cruelty in this world.
-Since god is all powerful, he decides whether or not satan performs certain acts or even exists.
-God can stop satan any time he wants to because god is all powerful.
-God chooses not to stop satan from performing evil and cruel acts, thus endorsing satan's acts through god's own inaction.
Conclusion: God performs evil and cruel acts upon humanity by allowing satan to perform such acts. God is evil and cruel because he has the power to stop evil and cruel acts from occurring, yet does nothing.
<strong>I have ohter threads up right now where religious beliefs are discussed form many sides. Some have tried to derail those threads by posting arguments that the discussion is irrelevant becasue they are based on the Bible. A book that they claim is innacurate and unsupportable. So, in order to keep the other thread on topic and to give said people a place to vent about it, where should a persons religious beliefs come from? The bible according to you is off the table (I disagree and will explain why if I get any good responses here), so where should they come from. I am interested to see what kind of answers I get here, if any at all.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gee, I don't know, Noah - The Koran? The Upanishads? The Tibetan Book of the Dead? Personally, I think trying to suggest that a universal concept like religion and a culturally specific object like the Bible should be synonymous is a tad on the blinkered side. Since all the orthodox religions clash dramatically in their views, the only truly logical stance to take is to dismiss all of them IMHO. I'm interested in spirituality, but not in the dust-gathering ossification of religious dogma. So The Blue Meanie's answer would be: actual experience of the (seemingly) spiritual instead of blind faith in second-hand dogma. (But then again, they do say that if you talk to God, you're a saint; if God talks to you, you're schizophrenic
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]
[ 05-02-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]
[ 05-12-2002: Message edited by: The Blue Meanie ]</p>
<strong>Gee, I don't know, Noah - The Koran? The Upanishads? The Tibetan Book of the Dead?
[snip]
So The Blue Meanie's answer would be: actual experience of the (seemingly) spiritual instead of blind faith in second-hand dogma.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When you pull out all the snide comments and witty (I suppose) reparte this seems to be what your answer boils down to. Correct?
[edit] placed the books back in as I did ask what books.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
<strong>
When you pull out all the snide comments and witty (I suppose) reparte this seems to be what your answer boils down to. Correct?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You've conveniently left out all the other "holy" books of other religions. Oh ya, I forgot...you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an arrogant son of a bitch for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.
[quote]
Me:
Religion didn't come to us as we became 'advanced' enough to ask the right questions and articulate enough to express our answers to ourselves. God didn't wait around until he thought we were ready for him.
NoahJ:
When have I ever said this? When have I ever put forth this balogna? Never. <hr></blockquote>
You're quite right: you never said this. You see, I did. It's what I said. My suggestion.
It's why the first peoples to come out of Africa had all sorts of complex and sophisticated religious ideas from the off. And none of them had anything to do with a man with a beard and a brigade of angels. (All that monotheistic stuff comes from the last 10,000 years or so.)
[quote]
Me:
You're utterly, utterly convinced your guy's pulling the strings because our ancestors would have died if they didn't believe and it's a hardwired condition you've got.
NoahJ / Jesus
Once again, I said this when? How are you getting this from what I have posted anyhow? People can live their lives without following God. I just don't recommend it as the stop at the end, death, is a rough place to go when you are not "saved". There must be something lost (or added) in the translation that I am missing. <hr></blockquote>
No, you see, thing is, that's my hypothesis there too. No sir, you didn't say that: I DID!
So let me put it another way (Lord above, WHY am I bothering? I've got work to do): it's evolution! You believe as though your life depended on it because for our ancestors, that was actually true: lives did depend on belief! And it's deep in your noggin! And the Bible is no more or no less true than the /Xam prayers addressed to the New Moon and the Mantis Kaggen!
Only arguably less useful in a day-to-day, keep-a-body-alive-in-an-arid-semi-desert sort of sense.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</p>
<strong>And I swore I wouldn't sully myself by arguing about religion with a zealot on a public forum when I've got tonnes of work to do...
No, you see, thing is, that's my hypothesis there too. No sir, you didn't say that: I DID!
So let me put it another way (Lord above, WHY am I bothering? I've got work to do): it's evolution! You believe as though your life depended on it because for our ancestors, that was actually true: lives did depend on belief! And it's deep in your noggin! And the Bible is no more or no less true than the /Xam prayers addressed to the New Moon and the Mantis Kaggen!
Only arguably less useful in a day-to-day, keep-a-body-alive-in-an-arid-semi-desert sort of sense.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Hassan i Sabbah ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thank you for the clarification. The way it was posted it looked as though you were saying that I had said those things. I was quite confused. Anyhow, once again, thanks.
<strong>
You've conveniently left out all the other "holy" books of other religions. Oh ya, I forgot...you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an arrogant son of a bitch for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are correct, I did leave out the books, my bad.
But still we resort to name calling and a hatred that I really do not feel I have earned.
<strong>
You are correct, I did leave out the books, my bad.
But still we resort to name calling and a hatred that I really do not feel I have earned.
Instead of being offended by the tamest of name calling, how about you instead respond to this:
you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an <expletive deleted because Noah is too easily offended> for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.
<strong>
Instead of being offended by the tamest of name calling, how about you instead respond to this:
you assume that yours is right because you were one of the lucky ones to be born a Christian. Everyone else is wrong because, well, you can't be. Forget it Noah. I've already proved that under your rules, your god is evil and cruel. Blue has shown that there are many other texts from which religious belief is derived. You are an <expletive deleted because Noah is too easily offended> for thinking that you just happen to have the correct religion.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Big problem, nobody is born a Christian. Being born into a Christian family does not make you a Christian any more than going to McDonalds all the time makes you a hamburger. It is a way of life, not a birthright like being Jewish.
You have not proven anything. You have laid out an argument which I have not taken the time to dispute yet as I still need time to look it over. Lack of response does not mean you have proven anything, it means the other side has not responded.
Also, if you notice I ignored most of your previous heckling and tried to answer your main points (when I had teh answer available), but the attitude of hatred towards me is so pervasive in your posts that I will not ignore it any longer.
<strong>Meh, close enough. It doesn't really affect my argument.
Premise: Operating under the Christian set of rules, God is evil and cruel.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ok, lets look at your premise. You can feel however you like about this when I am done, but at least I will have answered you question.
[quote]<strong>"Fact" - God is all powerful.
"Fact" - There exists a Satan.
"Fact" - Satan is a source of evil and cruelty in this world.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Agreed. Probably for the last time in this post.
[quote]<strong>-Since god is all powerful, he decides whether or not satan performs certain acts or even exists.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong. God is all powerful, but has allowed free will in His creation. He allows satan to exist and allows him to make his own evil choices, but he does not decide what those choices are.
[quote]<strong>-God can stop satan any time he wants to because god is all powerful.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, as a basic priciple.
[quote]<strong>-God chooses not to stop satan from performing evil and cruel acts, thus endorsing satan's acts through god's own inaction.</strong><hr></blockquote>
False. God does not stop anyone from doing evil things. But he does hold them responsible for their actions when the time comes. This is part and parcel with free will. Any judgement you receive will be due to your own actions and choices. not "what God allowed you to do through his endorsment of your sins". Nice try though.
[quote]<strong>Conclusion: God performs evil and cruel acts upon humanity by allowing satan to perform such acts. God is evil and cruel because he has the power to stop evil and cruel acts from occurring, yet does nothing.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Wrong, as shown through my rebuttles. There will be a price to pay in the end, and satan will pay fully for his actions. But until then, it is up to humans and their free will to choose which they wish to follow, satan or God. That is what it comes down to.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</p>
<strong>
Wrong, as shown through my rebuttles. There will be a price to pay in the end, and satan will pay fully for his actions. But until then, it is up to humans and their free will to choose which they wish to follow, satan or God. That is what it comes down to.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: NoahJ ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Your god has the power to stop evil and yet he doesn't claiming he'll sort everything out in the end. He can't mess with free will. Well, that's analogous to a police officer holding a shotgun to a criminal's head allowing the criminal to go on a rampage killing many people and then after the rampage is over, pulling the trigger. That's called too little, too late. The police officer could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to. The police officer is just as guilty as the criminal. God could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to.
If I had the power to stop an evil act from occuring, I would stop it. See, I'm more benevolent than your freaking cruel bastard of a god. BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND WORSHIP THE BENEVOLENT ONE.
I really don't care if satan will pay fully for his actions after the fact. God could have stopped them but his inaction was just as much of a crime. Will god pay for his inactions?
All you are saying is that god uses free will as an excuse to have front row seats to a bloodbath that he could stop at any time and he'll try to make it all right in the end by punishing the pawns in his sick, twisted, sadistic little game.
Your god is evil. Your god is cruel. Worship me, for I am benevolent.
EDIT: Fixed random typos.
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]
[ 05-03-2002: Message edited by: Exercise in Frivolity ]</p>
dhammapada
<strong>Your god has the power to stop evil and yet he doesn't claiming he'll sort everything out in the end. He can't mess with free will. Well, that's analogous to a police officer holding a shotgun to a criminal's head allowing the criminal to go on a rampage killing many people and then after the rampage is over, pulling the trigger. That's called too little, too late. The police officer could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to. The police officer is just as guilty as the criminal. God could have stopped the acts but the bastard decided not to.</strong><hr></blockquote>
What has Satan done to you lately? Really? He is a source of evil and misery. He does not cause it directly. Usually you will find that is done through normal humans who through their free will make bad decisions. maybe you would be happy if God started vaporizing people tomorrow for their sins. Oh wait, God carrying out his judgment makes him cruel and evil. The words damned if you do, damned if you don't come to mind.
[quote]<strong>If I had the power to stop an evil act from occuring, I would stop it. See, I'm more benevolent than your freaking cruel bastard of a god. BOW DOWN BEFORE ME AND WORSHIP THE BENEVOLENT ONE. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Aren't we special? And an egomaniac as well.
[quote]<strong>I really don't care if satan will pay fully for his actions after the fact. God could have stopped them but his inaction was just as much of a crime. Will god pay for his inactions?
All you are saying is that god uses free will as an excuse to have front row seats to a bloodbath that he could stop at any time and he'll try to make it all right in the end by punishing the pawns in his sick, twisted, sadistic little game.
Your god is evil. Your god is cruel. Worship me, for I am benevolent.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sad. really.
<strong>
Sad. really.
What really is sad is your blind faith. No wait, it's pathetic.
<strong>
What really is sad is your blind faith. No wait, it's pathetic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Zing!