The Bushies are now warning Congress to "be careful" with any investigations. They're outraged that anyone could even possibly entertain the idea that anything could have been done.
It's pathetic. These guys have this outlook that they are beyond criticism. Next I expect Ari to come out and again tell Americans to watch what they say and watch what they do.
To be clearer, we need to specifically investigate the FBI and CIA. I don't care about the White House, I want to know how much these guys screwed up and whether or not it could happen again. Maybe they didn't screw up as much as the 'evidence' now suggests. But then again, maybe they screwed up worse. We need to find out.
Guess what? We don't know! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Right. All the terrorists are dead now.
[quote]<strong>The only reason the document about Moussaui ever got out was because he is on trial and they are using it as evidence against him saying he was part of the 9/11 conspiracy. There could be other things we don't know about- that's why we need the investigation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which is why he should have been tried before a military tribunal. And the fact that Moussaui was already in jail when the terrorists struck illustrates my earlier point. Clearly the FBI was onto something when he was arrested. But they didn't know the full dimensions of what was being planned.
As for the need for investigations, you aren't very persuasive. You do realize, don't you, that going off half-cocked on some wild-eyed, open-ended investigation could easily undermine whatever successful intelligence efforts we've had so far.
<strong>To be clearer, we need to specifically investigate the FBI and CIA. I don't care about the White House, I want to know how much these guys screwed up and whether or not it could happen again. Maybe they didn't screw up as much as the 'evidence' now suggests. But then again, maybe they screwed up worse. We need to find out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They did screw up. Changes do need to be made. I have no problem with this. It just shouldn't be treated like some kind of political football.
I'm not saying it should be used as a political football. Do you see me saying that we should launch a major investigation into what the White House knew beforehand? No.
I want to see the FBI and CIA held accountable for their mistakes. After all, they were the ones back in September who said, "We had no prior knowledge of this" and then were given HUGE budget increases. They lied to us, obviously, and now we need to find out the truth.
Wow, this is actually a very interesting thread! Great examples of people freely voicing their opinions...
Here?s something to think about. Believe it or not, our corrupt government filled with evil white men out to get you, and kill your babies, (sense some sarcasm?) actually manages to get it right sometimes. Our security agencies often thwart terrorist activities, saving lives, without you ever knowing about it. The CIA prides its self in the fact that, we the people, only hear about the things they screwed up on. Is there room for improvement? Yes of course, one place is increased communication between the intelligence services. But on thing to remember is that people talk too much. Meaning the more people who about classified information the less classified it becomes. The Navy has always had an unofficial saying ?Loose lips sink ships?.
Everyone gets emotional when major tragedies like September 11th occur. The instinct is that there most be some one/person or organization responsible. Sometimes, something?s are unpreventable. Do you really think what those men on Sep 11th were very difficult? I happen to travel for work about 90% of the year, and have before and, after the 11th taken onboard planes (unintentionally) things just as lethal as box cutters. There are a couple of airline pilots in my family who, after the 11th explained to me how easy it would be to fly a large plane into a building.
Sorry for the rant, but just couldn?t keep quiet on this one.
It was enough to get Moussaui, wasn't it? Plus, don't you think that the government had the OBLIGATION to tell the people who ran the WTC about the possible threat? Not even that was done.
Completely bungled.</strong>
It was <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html"; target="_blank">worse</a> than this. If it wasn't for a dogged flight instructor, Moussaoui wouldn't have even been caught! They didn't even let the local FBI office search <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/730512.html"; target="_blank">Moussaoui's property</a> after he was arrested, even after learning that he had links to terrorism.
If Sept. 11 wasn't a case for the FBI, CIA and NSA to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, then I don't know what is. Mind that I wouldn't mind a majority of the government agencies to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up though.
<strong>... They didn't even let the local FBI office search <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/730512.html"; target="_blank">Moussaoui's property</a> after he was arrested, even after learning that he had links to terrorism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
From the article you linked:
[quote]... the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.<hr></blockquote>
Maybe in this particular matter it's the law that needs to be reviewed.
[quote]<strong>If Sept. 11 wasn't a case for the FBI, CIA and NSA to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, then I don't know what is..</strong><hr></blockquote>
... the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.
Maybe in this particular matter it's the law that needs to be reviewed.
</strong>
The article also said this:
"After his arrest, the FBI ran Moussaoui's name through an international law-enforcement network and learned from French intelligence officials that he was suspected of having ties to a terrorist group, law-enforcement sources said."
And succeeding the statement you quoted, it says:
"The law permits such warrants, wiretaps and other surveillance measures only if there is evidence that the suspect is an agent of a foreign power or a terrorist group."
I am aware of the magnitude of the 9-11 tragedy, but why have people waited until now to say the FBI, CIA, JUSTICE DEPT, and so on need to be investigated, fired, arrested etc. I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters and questions of corruption, lies, coverups were evident then. I myself have been laughed at or flamed (sort of) for my veiws on the gov., gun rights, etc by some of the very people posting to this topic suggesting that our great government had insight to the possibility of events leading to 9-11 and did nothing. HHMMMM sounds like a conspiracy to me.
It's simple: It was easy to believe the FBI and CIA were telling the truth when they said they had no prior knowledge of the attacks being planned.
But now that we know it was a lie, we need to find out what else they are lying about and keeping from us. Yes, it was a tragedy, but don't at least the families of the victims deserve to know what they really knew beforehand?
I am aware of the magnitude of the 9-11 tragedy, but why have people waited until now to say the FBI, CIA, JUSTICE DEPT, and so on need to be investigated, fired, arrested etc. I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters and questions of corruption, lies, coverups were evident then.</strong>
I don't believe in conspiracies, lies or that the FBI, CIA, DOJ, et al are corrupted. Any sort of belief that government knew beforehand [of the actual plot and events to come] requires some extraordinary evidence.
Perhaps at the high pay grades there is a bit of corruption, but at the level of the real work [where they are supposed to figure this stuff out], it's most likely incompetence. And when that happens, it becomes really dangerous. Only the high pay grades can change that, and we're at a stage that they can't.
<strong>I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters</strong><hr></blockquote>
There were Senate Judiciary committee hearings, special Danforth commissions, firing of FBI agents, grillings of Reno and call after call for her resignation, and on and on.
I don't believe in conspiracies, lies or that the FBI, CIA, DOJ, et al are corrupted. Any sort of belief that government knew beforehand [of the actual plot and events to come] requires some extraordinary evidence.
Perhaps at the high pay grades there is a bit of corruption, but at the level of the real work [where they are supposed to figure this stuff out], it's most likely incompetence. And when that happens, it becomes really dangerous. Only the high pay grades can change that, and we're at a stage that they can't.
<strong>The real problem is the cover-up,the lack of honesty,the corporations working in the shadows,guiding American foreign policy.The fact that the Taliban were being threatened before September 11 suggests that maybe those planning the attacks thought of them as a preemptive strike,not that they were justified in any way-they weren't ,but the truth is that they weren't unprovoked attacks.But of course it is clear that the Taliban are real bastards,one of the more evil governments in world history,but I just don't like the business of American government being done in secret,and I don't like lies.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The CIA and the FBI have severely bungled this whole affair. And it cost lots of innocent lives.
Don't believe for a second that the CIA had no idea about this plot. We will never know how much they were onto, but Egyptian intelligence, Israeili intelligence, and who knows who else all had pretty specific information, enough for some Israeli agents to have been tailing some of the hijackers in Florida.
Some of them were on FBI watchlists.
There was already one Al Qaeda attempt on the WTC.
In 1994 an Air France jet was hijacked by Algerian extremists with the intention of crashing it into Paris (recently made public, but you can bet the CIA knew about it). The plane was grounded in Marseille for re-fueling and the hijack was thwarted by French SWAT teams. Suicide planes are not something "completely new." They are the logical continuation of explosive belts, trucks packed with TNT, etc.
They had a man in custody with known ties to terrorist organisations who was learning to fly a passenger jet maybe into the WTC or government buildings. This man responded to questioning like a raving lunatic hell bent on death for Allah.
Of course, the FBI could not have know what EXACTLY was going to happen, but they had enough info to do this:
1. Contact all USA flight schools and ask about suspicious Middle-eastern men recently enrolled (some of them strangely refused to learn how to land a plane, some were incredibly bad pilots, some wer arrogant and swaggering.)
2. Make the rounds and bust a few of them for visa violations (many had overstayed student visas and were no longer enrolled)
3. Presto! Plot is disrupted.
4. Shake down Moussaoui and other arrested on visa violations to get some info.
5. Let air traffic controllers know that a plane with its transponder off, or inexplicably turning around 180 degrees for no reason, or otherwise acting strange, should be INSTANTLY reported to the Air Force.
That's what we're paying them to do. Just to be on top of the situation. No miracles.
It is one thing to be patriotic, but this is just the latest CIA botch job in a long string. You can bet that heads have rolled at high levels of the CIA and FBI, and rightly so.
There were Senate Judiciary committee hearings, special Danforth commissions, firing of FBI agents, grillings of Reno and call after call for her resignation, and on and on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
AKA smokescreen tactics to appease the naive public that they were being "just" in disciplining officers who were out of line. But I know your stance BRussell, your great government would never do anything injustly or corrupt
The FBI warned that Islamic Fundamentalists with ties to Osama Bin Laden were being trained to fly planes with the possibility of hijacking them. Memos were sent requesting that the people obtaining visas specifically for the purpose of getting flight training should have their backgrounds checked.
However, some of the hijackers recieved their approval forms 6 months after they'd died flying the planes into the buildings.
It seems much of the legislation that is being passed now is going to prohibit innocent people more than any terrorist. I don't mind waiting in line to get my ass felt up, or my shoes sniffed but they still don't even scan the checked luggage? That's dumb.
You can't really blame Bush or Clinton. And whoever brought Clinton into this is desperate. As much of a scumbag as Clinton is, he isn't part of this topic.
robertB -- you were laughed at because your ideas are laughable: characatures of militia reactionary-ideologue x-file silliness brought on by reading to much independent press mallarcky, psuedo 'information' from the gun toting fringe.
[quote] The Navy has always had an unofficial saying ?Loose lips sink ships?. <hr></blockquote>
this is from propaganda posters put up in print all over the place in WW2. It is not "unofficial"
ricain's responce is very balanced and makes much sense.
clearly this was an intelligence failure> and it points out one thing: we need to know why it failed to catch something on this scale.... and to do so demands an examination: a non-politically motivated investigation that will look at the loose ends that never came together to spell out clearly what needed to be seen by the people in charge:
there is always the chance that they saw it and just hoped that the meager amounts of security in place would work, however, I think that the ends just never lined up enough for it to be clear.
Comments
It's pathetic. These guys have this outlook that they are beyond criticism. Next I expect Ari to come out and again tell Americans to watch what they say and watch what they do.
<strong>
Guess what? We don't know! </strong><hr></blockquote>
Right. All the terrorists are dead now.
[quote]<strong>The only reason the document about Moussaui ever got out was because he is on trial and they are using it as evidence against him saying he was part of the 9/11 conspiracy. There could be other things we don't know about- that's why we need the investigation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Which is why he should have been tried before a military tribunal. And the fact that Moussaui was already in jail when the terrorists struck illustrates my earlier point. Clearly the FBI was onto something when he was arrested. But they didn't know the full dimensions of what was being planned.
As for the need for investigations, you aren't very persuasive. You do realize, don't you, that going off half-cocked on some wild-eyed, open-ended investigation could easily undermine whatever successful intelligence efforts we've had so far.
<strong>To be clearer, we need to specifically investigate the FBI and CIA. I don't care about the White House, I want to know how much these guys screwed up and whether or not it could happen again. Maybe they didn't screw up as much as the 'evidence' now suggests. But then again, maybe they screwed up worse. We need to find out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They did screw up. Changes do need to be made. I have no problem with this. It just shouldn't be treated like some kind of political football.
I want to see the FBI and CIA held accountable for their mistakes. After all, they were the ones back in September who said, "We had no prior knowledge of this" and then were given HUGE budget increases. They lied to us, obviously, and now we need to find out the truth.
Here?s something to think about. Believe it or not, our corrupt government filled with evil white men out to get you, and kill your babies, (sense some sarcasm?) actually manages to get it right sometimes. Our security agencies often thwart terrorist activities, saving lives, without you ever knowing about it. The CIA prides its self in the fact that, we the people, only hear about the things they screwed up on. Is there room for improvement? Yes of course, one place is increased communication between the intelligence services. But on thing to remember is that people talk too much. Meaning the more people who about classified information the less classified it becomes. The Navy has always had an unofficial saying ?Loose lips sink ships?.
Everyone gets emotional when major tragedies like September 11th occur. The instinct is that there most be some one/person or organization responsible. Sometimes, something?s are unpreventable. Do you really think what those men on Sep 11th were very difficult? I happen to travel for work about 90% of the year, and have before and, after the 11th taken onboard planes (unintentionally) things just as lethal as box cutters. There are a couple of airline pilots in my family who, after the 11th explained to me how easy it would be to fly a large plane into a building.
Sorry for the rant, but just couldn?t keep quiet on this one.
It was enough to get Moussaui, wasn't it? Plus, don't you think that the government had the OBLIGATION to tell the people who ran the WTC about the possible threat? Not even that was done.
Completely bungled.</strong>
It was <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/1576/913687.html"; target="_blank">worse</a> than this. If it wasn't for a dogged flight instructor, Moussaoui wouldn't have even been caught! They didn't even let the local FBI office search <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/730512.html"; target="_blank">Moussaoui's property</a> after he was arrested, even after learning that he had links to terrorism.
If Sept. 11 wasn't a case for the FBI, CIA and NSA to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, then I don't know what is. Mind that I wouldn't mind a majority of the government agencies to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up though.
<strong>... They didn't even let the local FBI office search <a href="http://www.startribune.com/stories/484/730512.html"; target="_blank">Moussaoui's property</a> after he was arrested, even after learning that he had links to terrorism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
From the article you linked:
[quote]... the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.<hr></blockquote>
Maybe in this particular matter it's the law that needs to be reviewed.
[quote]<strong>If Sept. 11 wasn't a case for the FBI, CIA and NSA to be dismantled and rebuilt from the ground up, then I don't know what is..</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough.
... the request for the warrant was denied on grounds that evidence gathered to date didn't meet the civil liberties threshold of the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, the sources said.
Maybe in this particular matter it's the law that needs to be reviewed.
</strong>
The article also said this:
"After his arrest, the FBI ran Moussaoui's name through an international law-enforcement network and learned from French intelligence officials that he was suspected of having ties to a terrorist group, law-enforcement sources said."
And succeeding the statement you quoted, it says:
"The law permits such warrants, wiretaps and other surveillance measures only if there is evidence that the suspect is an agent of a foreign power or a terrorist group."
Maybe the FBI should have worked harder.
But now that we know it was a lie, we need to find out what else they are lying about and keeping from us. Yes, it was a tragedy, but don't at least the families of the victims deserve to know what they really knew beforehand?
I am aware of the magnitude of the 9-11 tragedy, but why have people waited until now to say the FBI, CIA, JUSTICE DEPT, and so on need to be investigated, fired, arrested etc. I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters and questions of corruption, lies, coverups were evident then.</strong>
I don't believe in conspiracies, lies or that the FBI, CIA, DOJ, et al are corrupted. Any sort of belief that government knew beforehand [of the actual plot and events to come] requires some extraordinary evidence.
Perhaps at the high pay grades there is a bit of corruption, but at the level of the real work [where they are supposed to figure this stuff out], it's most likely incompetence. And when that happens, it becomes really dangerous. Only the high pay grades can change that, and we're at a stage that they can't.
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: THT ]</p>
<strong>I remember OKC, RUBY RIDGE, WACO,there was no investigation into these matters</strong><hr></blockquote>
There were Senate Judiciary committee hearings, special Danforth commissions, firing of FBI agents, grillings of Reno and call after call for her resignation, and on and on.
I don't believe in conspiracies, lies or that the FBI, CIA, DOJ, et al are corrupted. Any sort of belief that government knew beforehand [of the actual plot and events to come] requires some extraordinary evidence.
Perhaps at the high pay grades there is a bit of corruption, but at the level of the real work [where they are supposed to figure this stuff out], it's most likely incompetence. And when that happens, it becomes really dangerous. Only the high pay grades can change that, and we're at a stage that they can't.
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: THT ][/QB]<hr></blockquote>
I disagree, it is in THE HIGHER PAY GRADES that corruption begins, and flows downhill from there. And sometimes, common sense is the best evidence.
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Robertp ]</p>
<strong>The real problem is the cover-up,the lack of honesty,the corporations working in the shadows,guiding American foreign policy.The fact that the Taliban were being threatened before September 11 suggests that maybe those planning the attacks thought of them as a preemptive strike,not that they were justified in any way-they weren't ,but the truth is that they weren't unprovoked attacks.But of course it is clear that the Taliban are real bastards,one of the more evil governments in world history,but I just don't like the business of American government being done in secret,and I don't like lies.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Give me a break!
"It's a conspiracy!"
The CIA and the FBI have severely bungled this whole affair. And it cost lots of innocent lives.
Don't believe for a second that the CIA had no idea about this plot. We will never know how much they were onto, but Egyptian intelligence, Israeili intelligence, and who knows who else all had pretty specific information, enough for some Israeli agents to have been tailing some of the hijackers in Florida.
Some of them were on FBI watchlists.
There was already one Al Qaeda attempt on the WTC.
In 1994 an Air France jet was hijacked by Algerian extremists with the intention of crashing it into Paris (recently made public, but you can bet the CIA knew about it). The plane was grounded in Marseille for re-fueling and the hijack was thwarted by French SWAT teams. Suicide planes are not something "completely new." They are the logical continuation of explosive belts, trucks packed with TNT, etc.
They had a man in custody with known ties to terrorist organisations who was learning to fly a passenger jet maybe into the WTC or government buildings. This man responded to questioning like a raving lunatic hell bent on death for Allah.
Of course, the FBI could not have know what EXACTLY was going to happen, but they had enough info to do this:
1. Contact all USA flight schools and ask about suspicious Middle-eastern men recently enrolled (some of them strangely refused to learn how to land a plane, some were incredibly bad pilots, some wer arrogant and swaggering.)
2. Make the rounds and bust a few of them for visa violations (many had overstayed student visas and were no longer enrolled)
3. Presto! Plot is disrupted.
4. Shake down Moussaoui and other arrested on visa violations to get some info.
5. Let air traffic controllers know that a plane with its transponder off, or inexplicably turning around 180 degrees for no reason, or otherwise acting strange, should be INSTANTLY reported to the Air Force.
That's what we're paying them to do. Just to be on top of the situation. No miracles.
It is one thing to be patriotic, but this is just the latest CIA botch job in a long string. You can bet that heads have rolled at high levels of the CIA and FBI, and rightly so.
<strong>
There were Senate Judiciary committee hearings, special Danforth commissions, firing of FBI agents, grillings of Reno and call after call for her resignation, and on and on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
AKA smokescreen tactics to appease the naive public that they were being "just" in disciplining officers who were out of line. But I know your stance BRussell, your great government would never do anything injustly or corrupt
However, some of the hijackers recieved their approval forms 6 months after they'd died flying the planes into the buildings.
It seems much of the legislation that is being passed now is going to prohibit innocent people more than any terrorist. I don't mind waiting in line to get my ass felt up, or my shoes sniffed but they still don't even scan the checked luggage? That's dumb.
<a href="http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/02-1-133.html"; target="_blank">http://www.aopa.org/whatsnew/newsitems/2002/02-1-133.html</a>;
<a href="http://www.usbc.org/info/everything/0302terrorextension.htm"; target="_blank">http://www.usbc.org/info/everything/0302terrorextension.htm</a>;
<a href="http://detnews.com/2002/editorial/0204/02/a17-453212.htm"; target="_blank">http://detnews.com/2002/editorial/0204/02/a17-453212.htm</a>;
<a href="http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/031khzlw.asp"; target="_blank">http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/001/031khzlw.asp</a>;
The system is broken.
You can't really blame Bush or Clinton. And whoever brought Clinton into this is desperate. As much of a scumbag as Clinton is, he isn't part of this topic.
I disagree, it is in THE HIGHER PAY GRADES that corruption begins, and flows downhill from there. And sometimes, common sense is the best evidence.
</strong>
No, can't say I would agree. I always take the tact of never attributing to malice and conspiracy when incompetence and negligence will do just fine.
And the corruption I see happening falls more into the money sort of thing, not malevolence.
[quote] The Navy has always had an unofficial saying ?Loose lips sink ships?. <hr></blockquote>
this is from propaganda posters put up in print all over the place in WW2. It is not "unofficial"
ricain's responce is very balanced and makes much sense.
clearly this was an intelligence failure> and it points out one thing: we need to know why it failed to catch something on this scale.... and to do so demands an examination: a non-politically motivated investigation that will look at the loose ends that never came together to spell out clearly what needed to be seen by the people in charge:
there is always the chance that they saw it and just hoped that the meager amounts of security in place would work, however, I think that the ends just never lined up enough for it to be clear.