That, and the conversation the suit alleges that they recorded. It seems there should be enough evidence to settle this matter one way or the other pretty easily.
Having said that, some of the specific allegations just don't pass the smell test. It sounds so completely out of character for an Apple Store and an Apple retail employee. I would also wonder how soon the phone recording started. Too early and it sounds a bit like a set-up of some kind. I know that when I am feeling hassled by someone, a cop at a traffic stop for instance, the last thing I think about is pulling out my iPhone to document the situation. I think about it later, but not in the emotional moment. Unless I was expecting trouble, which could be the case for these guys. Anyway, I hope that AI does some follow up on the particulars as I am curious what the evidence will show.
Actually, some people carry a digital recorder to job interviews and many other places where discrimination could happen. So, I would not be surprised to learn that these two men caught every detail the Apple staff said from start to finish. "Why carry a digital recorder to a retail store," you might ask. Well, retail stores are the main places Blacks and Latinos experience the most racism and discrimination. This might actually influence more people to protect themselves with digital recorders.
In fact, Rev. Al Sharpton and Rev. Jessie Jackson used to provide video cameras to so called "neighborhood watch groups" in an effort to document police brutality and racial profiling, to put an end to the shame and madness. The results where a sharp reduction in police brutality and racial profiling against Blacks and Latinos. So, maybe that what it takes. If it works, then why not use the technology to advocate for what right?
In fact, Rev. Al Sharpton and Rev. Jessie Jackson used to provide video cameras to so called "neighborhood watch groups" in an effort to document police brutality and racial profiling, to put an end to the shame and madness.
And in fact, when there is no evidence, they'll fabricate their own (Tawana Brawley + feces + rape + disgusting hoax).
What I find ridiculous is these guys are trying to suggest that for no reason whatsoever an Apple employee came up to them and basically said, "I don't like black people, and I want to you get the hell out of here!" Not only that but it seems rather convenient he was say something like, "yah, I'm discriminating against you solely because you're black and no other possible reason, but consider me God so you have to leave because I said so."
The entire scenario suggests there are glaring relevant facts either being completely eschewed, or just grossly exaggerated for their own benefit.
I would believe the following happened just about as much as I believe an Apple employee would approach a Jewish customer for no reason whatsoever and say, "get the hell out of the store you damn dirty Heeb," "... that's right ... you heard me you underhanded, big nosed liar. If we had a gas chamber I'd throw you in it." It's just so offensive and without cause or foundation it's absurd to suggest such a thing would happen. And if it did you don't think anyone in the general area (of even another employee) wouldn't have heard it and been equally offended. Yet, basically, this is EXACTLY what these guys are saying happened to them ...
I simply don't believe it as they described it happening.
In business, how you dress in an interview is a big indicator how much you want the job and how professional you can be. You can wear whatever you like outside of work, but you need to be a professional if you want those jobs that actually make good money or have good perks. I ALWAYS look at how an applicant is dressed. It doesn't have to be a $1000 suit or anything, but are they dressed in a professional manner? Do they talk in a professional manner? (regardless of accent) I have hired many people of all races over the years and apply the same standards on everyone. Many of my team speak english as a second language as well. So what it all comes down to is can you dress/act professionally when needed? If you come to an interview in baggy or "trendy" clothes, then no matter if you have a doctorate I will send you packing.
My post was in reference to what someone else said about not willing to hire the two men who was kicked out of Apple. So, what's your point? Are you saying these two men need to "dress/act" like you and your co-workers just to shop at Apple? I think you misunderstood the purpose of my post. Apple INTERVIEW AND HIRE people who wear baggy clothing, tattoos, ear rings, nose rings, purple hair, etc. What you would do is irrelevant!
Are you kidding? Everyone in New York wears Dre Beats headphones. Apple sells them in store last time I saw.
Like I wrote, only rich or dumb people would pay $300 at an Apple Store. Any person with more smarts than dollars would either buy less expensive headphones (nobody I know has or wants those, despite what you claim about "everyone" in NYC) or if they really want Beats, would buy them on Amazon for $180 refurbished.
Before you continue with your diatribe Ted, do you live in NYC? Racism (at least in my circles) is in fact simply unacceptable and impractical. How could one be a racist, or a homophobe etc and still live in NY? it's impossible. The first sign of racism and the source will be ostracized. Period. You will never get hired for a job as a bigot, you will never make any contacts. At least half of the Apple store employees are "minorities" in NY. No one cares, unless they want to use the race card to explain away some self deficiency.
I will say however that NY is certainly a place that judges you by appearance and your ability to speak. If you want a "corporate" job (the Apple store is one of them) don't go dressed like doofus and do speak like a professional, whatever your race is and no matter what is said to you.
Further, there is a dress code at the Apple stores. Why do you think they all wear those silly shirts? It happens to be a pretty informal dress code, but I doubt overly baggy jeans and a bad attitude would fly any better than "assless" riding chaps.
Standards do not imply racism or discrimination.
I should also add that Buddhists can be racists too. I have friends from Tibet who's words are not kind to the Chinese. Understandably; so I'm not criticizing them, but the fact of the matter is we are all racist on some level. Even those in the "minority" who call out "racism" every time they can't explain why they can't get what they want.
What do you mean by "corporate job"? These are sales specialist and teach specialist. When they go shopping and are not wearing an Apple logo shirts at work, they too wear whatever they want and believe me most of them dress pretty much similar to the two men who where kick out of the store. Even at work, some of them wear baggy pants along with the Apple logo shirts. Steve Jobs even dress like he's wants -- you'll never see him wearing the "corporate job" clothing, no suit and no tie for him. By way, next time you go to an Apple Store keep you eyes open for staff with tattoos and be sure to tell them they have a corporate job.
Actually, I think Howard Hughes' involvement in Las Vegas hotels had more to do with the breakdown of racial barriers than any "boycott" by the rat-pack.
Hughes' involvement brought legitimacy and international corporate perspective to the Las Vegas Hotel and Gaming industries -- it changed everything!
Hughes did indeed bring Big Business to Las Vegas, but given that he was widely regarded as a life-long racist I doubt he did much to bring Sammy into the clubs.
I?m imagining someone calling 911 in terror because teenagers are walking around in baggy jeans and hoodies. Oh the humanity!
PS: Whats worse: baggy jeans or those low-cut, skin tight hipster jeans that guys were these days. I?ll go for the baggy jeans and go find myself a belt instead of the sperm-count lowering hipster look. Hipster jeans: where fashion meets birth control.
for me the worst were the low cut jeans crowned by a pair of high riding thongs. Mmmmmm?
Yup. Mostly yours. This little morsel was especially choice:
Yeah... you NEVER say it. Never. And then you can't STOP with it. Riiiiiight. I believe every word you say. Everyone else is racist though. Just not... you, 'cause you never make that kind of accusation. Never! Yup. You got nothin' but credibility.
There's really only one way to settle this. We should go to an apple store with baggy sweatpants, sweatshirts "with a hood", and see if we get asked to leave.
The reason why I said numerous times before that I typically dont take this position is because I dont. You can say that I habitually play the "race card" but I dont. I know how frustrating topics like this are when your opinion is that its the supposed victim's fault, or that the supposed victim simply made it up. My opinion is typically in line with that position. However upon reading this story today, and knowing just how crowded apple stores are and how many different kinds of folks are in there, it really struck me the wrong way.
What I find ridiculous is these guys are trying to suggest that for no reason whatsoever an Apple employee came up to them and basically said, "I don't like black people, and I want to you get the hell out of here!" Not only that but it seems rather convenient he was say something like, "yah, I'm discriminating against you solely because you're black and no other possible reason, but consider me God so you have to leave because I said so."
The entire scenario suggests there are glaring relevant facts either being completely eschewed, or just simply grossly exaggerated for their own benefit.
I would believe the following happened just about as much as I believe an Apple employee would approach a Jewish customer for no reason whatsoever and say, "get the hell out of the store you damn dirty Heeb," "... that's right ... you heard me you underhanded, big nosed liar. If we had a gas chamber I'd throw you in it." It's just so offensive and without cause or foundation it's absurd to suggest such a thing would happen. And if it did you don't think anyone in the general area (of even another employee) wouldn't have heard it and been equally offended. Yet, basically, this is EXACTLY what these guys are saying happened to them ...
I simply don't believe it as they described it happening.
Huh, you just called yourself out! Looks like you know the language of racism very well and I bet you practice what you preach. I never heard anyone say anything like it! Was that your attempt to educate us?
Since Apple employs Geniuses not Psychics they shouldn?t be asking anyone to leave UNTIL they CATCH them doing something wrong. Not just looking wrong. The threshold for looking wrong should be much higher than baggy clothes. If someone saw a weapon or saw them attempting to steal that is another matter all together. But, being black, poorly dressed, or having long hair is not grounds for suspicion, especially not action.
Making a judgment on looks alone IS the very definition of discrimination. Whether the store employees were racist or not is impossible to tell from this short post. But they were definitely biased, and bias is the precursor to racism and discrimination. They were wrong it is that simple.
Seems VERY unlikely to me. I was there on Monday, and was served by a number of employees, two of whom were African-American themselves. There were other employees who showed a very multiethnic Apple indeed: one spoke Spanish and French to other customers; another was speaking Polish to a customer.
And in fact, when there is no evidence, they'll fabricate their own (Tawana Brawley + feces + rape + disgusting hoax).
I got your hint and, until you just showed me, I never heard of Tawana Brawley. I don't know if she was telling the truth or lying. But the point I made was simple: audio and video evidence reveal the facts. Maybe if there was no video tape of the Rodney King beating, then his story would have been dismissed as hoax too since he was a drug addict and ex-con. But ask yourself did that man deserve to get beaten bloody by police officers? The answer is "no." And do you know for sure that Tawana Brawley was not raped by the police, similar to what recently happen to another young lady less than one month ago? Again, the answer is "no." It's a shame that we have to reopen such deep wounds but you think this stuff funny or something. You are a heartless person trying to make an irrelevant point.
Since Apple employs Geniuses not Psychics they shouldn?t be asking anyone to leave UNTIL they CATCH them doing something wrong. Not just looking wrong. The threshold for looking wrong should be much higher than baggy clothes. If someone saw a weapon or saw them attempting to steal that is another matter all together. But, being black, poorly dressed, or having long hair is not grounds for suspicion, especially not action.
Making a judgment on looks alone IS the very definition of discrimination. Whether the store employees were racist or not is impossible to tell from this short post. But they were definitely biased, and bias is the precursor to racism and discrimination. They were wrong it is that simple.
You are explaining the legal definition of reasonable cause for being arrested, not being thrown out of an establishment.
For example common courtesy is a very reasonable philosophy for getting along in a civilized society. In this case I'd be willing to bet there was more than baggy clothes involved. Probably some anti-social behavior as well. There is also a thing called respect for the business owners. Hoods are not entitled to disrupt the normally cordial, pleasant and friendly environment found in Apple stores by causing fear and anxiety among the patrons which is exactly what thug mannerisms do regardless of whether any legal wrong doing was involved.
You are a heartless person trying to make an irrelevant point.
I can assure you that my heart is functioning perfectly well. I do admit to having a soft spot in my heart for cute fuzzy animals, such as cats or dogs. On the other hand, I have no soft spots in my heart for trash.
You were the one who brought up Al Sharpton, a well known race instigator, a convicted slanderer, liar and overall useless person. Where there is no racism, he and his ilk will invent it.
"The fact that the guy is a 50+ white male is a red flag for sure"?????????
That sounds like a racist sexist and ageist comment to me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prof. Peabody
There is nothing in the incident as described that suggests *racial* discrimination to me. Stores are allowed to discriminate as long as it doesn't get racial.
The fact that the guy is a 50+ white male is a red flag for sure, but the fact that these guys appeared to be dressed like (and perhaps acting like), booster artists is definitely a factor as well.
As with most things like this, it probably isn't worth arguing about without video. So much of the story is down to the attitudes and body language of those involved. The defendants could be two innocent guys in baggy clothes, or two suspicious looking a-holes. The white guy could be a decent fellow trying to do his job or a complete racist bastard. We just don't know.
It does sound like the very manager they found to hear their complaint (not the dude who thought he was god), is also the one who called security on them, so it's not like the Apple store employees were in any disagreement about these guys.
That being said, I've also had an Apple store employee (a manager in fact), freak out on me and force me to leave the store. Many emails and phone calls later the manager was disciplined from what I was told.
OK - they all need their day in court. This is the judicial system at work. I'm sick of people coming to conclusions based on a snippet of news.
White mail in his 50s, black men with baggy trousers - it's telling that anyone would jump to conclusions based on traits. It's like these are just props for some morality play.
I just hope there is enough evidence for a fair hearing for all. All people deserve justice and respect.
[goes back to AI's home page to look for news about Apple.]
Comments
That, and the conversation the suit alleges that they recorded. It seems there should be enough evidence to settle this matter one way or the other pretty easily.
Having said that, some of the specific allegations just don't pass the smell test. It sounds so completely out of character for an Apple Store and an Apple retail employee. I would also wonder how soon the phone recording started. Too early and it sounds a bit like a set-up of some kind. I know that when I am feeling hassled by someone, a cop at a traffic stop for instance, the last thing I think about is pulling out my iPhone to document the situation. I think about it later, but not in the emotional moment. Unless I was expecting trouble, which could be the case for these guys. Anyway, I hope that AI does some follow up on the particulars as I am curious what the evidence will show.
Actually, some people carry a digital recorder to job interviews and many other places where discrimination could happen. So, I would not be surprised to learn that these two men caught every detail the Apple staff said from start to finish. "Why carry a digital recorder to a retail store," you might ask. Well, retail stores are the main places Blacks and Latinos experience the most racism and discrimination. This might actually influence more people to protect themselves with digital recorders.
In fact, Rev. Al Sharpton and Rev. Jessie Jackson used to provide video cameras to so called "neighborhood watch groups" in an effort to document police brutality and racial profiling, to put an end to the shame and madness. The results where a sharp reduction in police brutality and racial profiling against Blacks and Latinos. So, maybe that what it takes. If it works, then why not use the technology to advocate for what right?
In fact, Rev. Al Sharpton and Rev. Jessie Jackson used to provide video cameras to so called "neighborhood watch groups" in an effort to document police brutality and racial profiling, to put an end to the shame and madness.
And in fact, when there is no evidence, they'll fabricate their own (Tawana Brawley + feces + rape + disgusting hoax).
The entire scenario suggests there are glaring relevant facts either being completely eschewed, or just grossly exaggerated for their own benefit.
I would believe the following happened just about as much as I believe an Apple employee would approach a Jewish customer for no reason whatsoever and say, "get the hell out of the store you damn dirty Heeb," "... that's right ... you heard me you underhanded, big nosed liar. If we had a gas chamber I'd throw you in it." It's just so offensive and without cause or foundation it's absurd to suggest such a thing would happen. And if it did you don't think anyone in the general area (of even another employee) wouldn't have heard it and been equally offended. Yet, basically, this is EXACTLY what these guys are saying happened to them ...
I simply don't believe it as they described it happening.
In business, how you dress in an interview is a big indicator how much you want the job and how professional you can be. You can wear whatever you like outside of work, but you need to be a professional if you want those jobs that actually make good money or have good perks. I ALWAYS look at how an applicant is dressed. It doesn't have to be a $1000 suit or anything, but are they dressed in a professional manner? Do they talk in a professional manner? (regardless of accent) I have hired many people of all races over the years and apply the same standards on everyone. Many of my team speak english as a second language as well. So what it all comes down to is can you dress/act professionally when needed? If you come to an interview in baggy or "trendy" clothes, then no matter if you have a doctorate I will send you packing.
My post was in reference to what someone else said about not willing to hire the two men who was kicked out of Apple. So, what's your point? Are you saying these two men need to "dress/act" like you and your co-workers just to shop at Apple? I think you misunderstood the purpose of my post. Apple INTERVIEW AND HIRE people who wear baggy clothing, tattoos, ear rings, nose rings, purple hair, etc. What you would do is irrelevant!
Are you kidding? Everyone in New York wears Dre Beats headphones. Apple sells them in store last time I saw.
Like I wrote, only rich or dumb people would pay $300 at an Apple Store. Any person with more smarts than dollars would either buy less expensive headphones (nobody I know has or wants those, despite what you claim about "everyone" in NYC) or if they really want Beats, would buy them on Amazon for $180 refurbished.
Great post spliff monkey.
Before you continue with your diatribe Ted, do you live in NYC? Racism (at least in my circles) is in fact simply unacceptable and impractical. How could one be a racist, or a homophobe etc and still live in NY? it's impossible. The first sign of racism and the source will be ostracized. Period. You will never get hired for a job as a bigot, you will never make any contacts. At least half of the Apple store employees are "minorities" in NY. No one cares, unless they want to use the race card to explain away some self deficiency.
I will say however that NY is certainly a place that judges you by appearance and your ability to speak. If you want a "corporate" job (the Apple store is one of them) don't go dressed like doofus and do speak like a professional, whatever your race is and no matter what is said to you.
Further, there is a dress code at the Apple stores. Why do you think they all wear those silly shirts? It happens to be a pretty informal dress code, but I doubt overly baggy jeans and a bad attitude would fly any better than "assless" riding chaps.
Standards do not imply racism or discrimination.
I should also add that Buddhists can be racists too. I have friends from Tibet who's words are not kind to the Chinese. Understandably; so I'm not criticizing them, but the fact of the matter is we are all racist on some level. Even those in the "minority" who call out "racism" every time they can't explain why they can't get what they want.
What do you mean by "corporate job"? These are sales specialist and teach specialist. When they go shopping and are not wearing an Apple logo shirts at work, they too wear whatever they want and believe me most of them dress pretty much similar to the two men who where kick out of the store. Even at work, some of them wear baggy pants along with the Apple logo shirts. Steve Jobs even dress like he's wants -- you'll never see him wearing the "corporate job" clothing, no suit and no tie for him. By way, next time you go to an Apple Store keep you eyes open for staff with tattoos and be sure to tell them they have a corporate job.
Actually, I think Howard Hughes' involvement in Las Vegas hotels had more to do with the breakdown of racial barriers than any "boycott" by the rat-pack.
Hughes' involvement brought legitimacy and international corporate perspective to the Las Vegas Hotel and Gaming industries -- it changed everything!
Hughes did indeed bring Big Business to Las Vegas, but given that he was widely regarded as a life-long racist I doubt he did much to bring Sammy into the clubs.
PS: Whats worse: baggy jeans or those low-cut, skin tight hipster jeans that guys were these days. I?ll go for the baggy jeans and go find myself a belt instead of the sperm-count lowering hipster look. Hipster jeans: where fashion meets birth control.
Yup. Mostly yours. This little morsel was especially choice:
Yeah... you NEVER say it. Never. And then you can't STOP with it. Riiiiiight. I believe every word you say. Everyone else is racist though. Just not... you, 'cause you never make that kind of accusation. Never! Yup. You got nothin' but credibility.
There's really only one way to settle this. We should go to an apple store with baggy sweatpants, sweatshirts "with a hood", and see if we get asked to leave.
The reason why I said numerous times before that I typically dont take this position is because I dont. You can say that I habitually play the "race card" but I dont. I know how frustrating topics like this are when your opinion is that its the supposed victim's fault, or that the supposed victim simply made it up. My opinion is typically in line with that position. However upon reading this story today, and knowing just how crowded apple stores are and how many different kinds of folks are in there, it really struck me the wrong way.
What I find ridiculous is these guys are trying to suggest that for no reason whatsoever an Apple employee came up to them and basically said, "I don't like black people, and I want to you get the hell out of here!" Not only that but it seems rather convenient he was say something like, "yah, I'm discriminating against you solely because you're black and no other possible reason, but consider me God so you have to leave because I said so."
The entire scenario suggests there are glaring relevant facts either being completely eschewed, or just simply grossly exaggerated for their own benefit.
I would believe the following happened just about as much as I believe an Apple employee would approach a Jewish customer for no reason whatsoever and say, "get the hell out of the store you damn dirty Heeb," "... that's right ... you heard me you underhanded, big nosed liar. If we had a gas chamber I'd throw you in it." It's just so offensive and without cause or foundation it's absurd to suggest such a thing would happen. And if it did you don't think anyone in the general area (of even another employee) wouldn't have heard it and been equally offended. Yet, basically, this is EXACTLY what these guys are saying happened to them ...
I simply don't believe it as they described it happening.
Huh, you just called yourself out! Looks like you know the language of racism very well and I bet you practice what you preach. I never heard anyone say anything like it! Was that your attempt to educate us?
Making a judgment on looks alone IS the very definition of discrimination. Whether the store employees were racist or not is impossible to tell from this short post. But they were definitely biased, and bias is the precursor to racism and discrimination. They were wrong it is that simple.
And in fact, when there is no evidence, they'll fabricate their own (Tawana Brawley + feces + rape + disgusting hoax).
I got your hint and, until you just showed me, I never heard of Tawana Brawley. I don't know if she was telling the truth or lying. But the point I made was simple: audio and video evidence reveal the facts. Maybe if there was no video tape of the Rodney King beating, then his story would have been dismissed as hoax too since he was a drug addict and ex-con. But ask yourself did that man deserve to get beaten bloody by police officers? The answer is "no." And do you know for sure that Tawana Brawley was not raped by the police, similar to what recently happen to another young lady less than one month ago? Again, the answer is "no." It's a shame that we have to reopen such deep wounds but you think this stuff funny or something. You are a heartless person trying to make an irrelevant point.
Are we stll talking about males because I gender bias on the issue of low-cut jeans and thongs.
Since Apple employs Geniuses not Psychics they shouldn?t be asking anyone to leave UNTIL they CATCH them doing something wrong. Not just looking wrong. The threshold for looking wrong should be much higher than baggy clothes. If someone saw a weapon or saw them attempting to steal that is another matter all together. But, being black, poorly dressed, or having long hair is not grounds for suspicion, especially not action.
Making a judgment on looks alone IS the very definition of discrimination. Whether the store employees were racist or not is impossible to tell from this short post. But they were definitely biased, and bias is the precursor to racism and discrimination. They were wrong it is that simple.
You are explaining the legal definition of reasonable cause for being arrested, not being thrown out of an establishment.
For example common courtesy is a very reasonable philosophy for getting along in a civilized society. In this case I'd be willing to bet there was more than baggy clothes involved. Probably some anti-social behavior as well. There is also a thing called respect for the business owners. Hoods are not entitled to disrupt the normally cordial, pleasant and friendly environment found in Apple stores by causing fear and anxiety among the patrons which is exactly what thug mannerisms do regardless of whether any legal wrong doing was involved.
You are a heartless person trying to make an irrelevant point.
I can assure you that my heart is functioning perfectly well. I do admit to having a soft spot in my heart for cute fuzzy animals, such as cats or dogs. On the other hand, I have no soft spots in my heart for trash.
You were the one who brought up Al Sharpton, a well known race instigator, a convicted slanderer, liar and overall useless person. Where there is no racism, he and his ilk will invent it.
That sounds like a racist sexist and ageist comment to me.
There is nothing in the incident as described that suggests *racial* discrimination to me. Stores are allowed to discriminate as long as it doesn't get racial.
The fact that the guy is a 50+ white male is a red flag for sure, but the fact that these guys appeared to be dressed like (and perhaps acting like), booster artists is definitely a factor as well.
As with most things like this, it probably isn't worth arguing about without video. So much of the story is down to the attitudes and body language of those involved. The defendants could be two innocent guys in baggy clothes, or two suspicious looking a-holes. The white guy could be a decent fellow trying to do his job or a complete racist bastard. We just don't know.
It does sound like the very manager they found to hear their complaint (not the dude who thought he was god), is also the one who called security on them, so it's not like the Apple store employees were in any disagreement about these guys.
That being said, I've also had an Apple store employee (a manager in fact), freak out on me and force me to leave the store. Many emails and phone calls later the manager was disciplined from what I was told.
Are we stll talking about males because I gender bias on the issue of low-cut jeans and thongs.
Yes, males, and yes, call me genderist, too, but only up to a point
White mail in his 50s, black men with baggy trousers - it's telling that anyone would jump to conclusions based on traits. It's like these are just props for some morality play.
I just hope there is enough evidence for a fair hearing for all. All people deserve justice and respect.
[goes back to AI's home page to look for news about Apple.]