Labor advocate challenges accuracy of NYT report on Apple, Foxconn

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  • Reply 81 of 122
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Shooting off one's mouth too early is a problem in the blogging world... and in the world at large.



    What is really irksome is Molly Wood's call "for others to join me" in calling for Apple to make changes. She was usurping the situation claim leadership and call attention to herself. Barf!
  • Reply 82 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


    This is why only some steps are consistently done using robots (or, more often, what's known as fixed automation) while others are consistently manually executed. To assemble with robots from end-to-end, you need to able to pay off your investment in at most 2 yrs. Greater advances will be needed to accomplish this, accompanied by increase in human labor costs. The latter will eventually happen, but not for another 1 or 2 decades.



    Having seen the BMW plant in South Carolina, I think the future is here. Almost all the difficult complex tasks are done by robots. The human labor part, did not appear all that technical. In fact, I think the reason they have the as many number of people at the plant had to do with BMW needing to have a quota of workers to get the tax break they got.



    They do need inspectors, technicians, and engineers, as well as the cleaning people and the people who drive the car off the plant. As I recall I think they said that they only need about 500 robots, reducing the actually man hours significantly and dramatically improving quality. But you are probably right that end to end robotic production is many years away.
  • Reply 83 of 122
    galbigalbi Posts: 968member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    What an uninformed, unsubstantiated set of comments.



    What a surprise, given Galbi is the source. /s



    BSR hasnt provided any proof.



    At this point, its anyone's game.



    I'm just doing my part to help AI increase its clicks.



    You need people like myself to keep this discussion board occupied and busy.
  • Reply 84 of 122
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by joguide View Post


    Having seen the BMW plant in South Carolina, I think the future is here. Almost all the difficult complex tasks are done by robots. The human labor part, did not appear all that technical. In fact, I think the reason they have the as many number of people at the plant had to do with BMW needing to have a quota of workers to get the tax break they got.



    They do need inspectors, technicians, and engineers, as well as the cleaning people and the people who drive the car off the plant. As I recall I think they said that they only need about 500 robots, reducing the actually man hours significantly and dramatically improving quality. But you are probably right that end to end robotic production is many years away.



    "The human labor part, did not appear all that technical ..."



    "They do need inspectors, technicians, and engineers ..."



    Make up your mind.



    But seriously, the BMW plant is not the most advanced exemplar of the best of robotic automation. No automative plant currently is.



    Furthermore, the question here is about whether anyone can make that many robots in 2 years. The number of robots in all automative plants does not approach what Foxconn ostensibly wants. There is further no logical analysis justifying such a need in the first place.



    This issue is dead. Sorry, you can't win this argument.
  • Reply 85 of 122
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Galbi View Post


    You need people like myself to keep this discussion [bored].



    Fixed that for you.
  • Reply 86 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by airmanchairman View Post


    One sensational piece of labour news centred on Foxconn concerned the alleged threats made by one particular product team in the past week to commit mass suicide if their demands for improved pay and conditions were not met.



    As the product involved a hugely popular gaming console sadly not associated with Apple, the story has mysteriously been swept under the carpet. This particular product vendor, though well known to be a customer of Foxconn, was not even mentioned in the NYT article that named several American and global vendors associated with the Chinese manufacturer.



    Apple is the only company willing to be transparent about its suppliers. The only company willing to take a hit to bring abuses to light. Why should they be kicked in the teeth for abuses they have helped bring to light?
  • Reply 87 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Actually, the only fourth-rate views here are the naive ones such as yours -- no doubt, motivated by the goodness of your heart for your fellow-men (as long as, I am guessing, they look like you, and live in the same country) -- whose sole rationale is to keep the poorer countries and their people poor for as long as you can.



    You are right, you are guessing.



    And you guessed wrong. The world is a connected place. My job is in a global organization, and I am fully cognizant of the fact that working conditions in one place will ultimately affect those elsewhere.



    So if in China the philosophy is that workers are animals, everybody who needs to work for a living should be concerned, regardless of where they live, or what they look like.
  • Reply 88 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Alonso Perez View Post


    You are right, you are guessing.



    And you guessed wrong. The world is a connected place. My job is in a global organization, and I am fully cognizant of the fact that working conditions in one place will ultimately affect those elsewhere.



    So if in China the philosophy is that workers are animals, everybody who needs to work for a living should be concerned, regardless of where they live, or what they look like.



    Huh!?



    Methinks you should not drink before you post.
  • Reply 89 of 122
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by angryshortguy View Post


    and being roused from your sleep at 2am to start production.



    OMG! Here in the US and much of the world, firefighters are roused from their sleep in the middle of the night and forced to go inside of burning buildings.
  • Reply 90 of 122
    adamcadamc Posts: 582member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Loptimist View Post


    so tell me,



    at the end of the day, does Foxconn have more suicide counseling hotlines than before?



    the fact that Apple was informed and "tried" to consult with Foxconn to install more hotlines does not mean anything unless Apple actually made that true.



    I wonder who owns Foxconn, Foxconn or Apple.



    Apple can advise and it is up to Foxconn as to whether they want to install more hot lines.



    So it is Apple's fault.
  • Reply 91 of 122
    slapppyslapppy Posts: 331member
    For every one or two articles defending Apple, there are literally dozens more supporting the NYT article. Who are we to believe? This doesn't look good for Apple right now. C/NET, ZDNET, BetaNews, CBS, The Guardian. Yes a call to boycott Apple has been printed by The Guardian. Here are a few points from The Guardian piece. Besides dwindling sales, now this bad Publicity accelerates Apple-iOS downwards trend. Not good at all.





    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...-worker-abuses



    "The company's public image took a dive after revelations about working conditions in the factories of some of its network of Chinese suppliers. The allegations, reported at length in the New York Times, build on previous concerns about abuses at firms that Apple uses to make its bestselling computers and phones. Now the dreaded word "boycott" has started to appear in media coverage of its activities.



    "Should consumers boycott Apple?" asked a column in the Los Angeles Times as it recounted details of the bad PR fallout.



    The influential Daily Beast and Newsweek technology writer Dan Lyons wrote a scathing piece. "It's barbaric," he said, before saying to his readership: "Ultimately the blame lies not with Apple and other electronics companies ? but with us, the consumers. And ultimately we are the ones who must demand change."



    Forbes magazine columnist Peter Cohan also got in on the act. "If you add up all the workers who have died to build your iPhone or iPad, the number is shockingly high," he began an article that also toyed with the idea of a boycott in its headline."
  • Reply 92 of 122
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by donarb View Post


    OMG! Here in the US and much of the world, firefighters are roused from their sleep in the middle of the night and forced to go inside of burning buildings.



    When we start work at 9am, for the Indian call centre staff we call it's 4am, maybe we should tell our customers to go away and come back in the afternoon.



    For the US and Europe the time zones are even further out of whack, maybe Americans should set their alarms and call in the middle of the night so the staff in Indian call centres can sleep in.



    That'd go down well.



    You want 24/7 customer care without paying higher costs?



    It comes from India.
  • Reply 93 of 122
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slapppy View Post


    Forbes magazine columnist Peter Cohan also got in on the act. "If you add up all the workers who have died to build your iPhone or iPad, the number is shockingly high," he began an article that also toyed with the idea of a boycott in its headline."



    You add up the workers who died so you can drive across the Brooklyn Bridge and the number is "shockingly higher" than the number that have died working for Foxconn.



    Will people boycott the Brooklyn Bridge?
  • Reply 94 of 122
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hill60 View Post


    You add up the workers who died so you can drive across the Brooklyn Bridge and the number is "shockingly higher" than the number that have died working for Foxconn.



    Will people boycott the Brooklyn Bridge?



    I think the call for boycott is hypocritical, and a slippery slope. But the Brooklyn Bridge analogy is ... misplaced.
  • Reply 95 of 122
    stelligentstelligent Posts: 2,680member
    It's easy to call for a boycott, and perhaps not completely unjustifiable to some. But I have questions:



    1. This issue is not new. Where were the sanctimonious calls for boycott before the NYT article?



    2. Will the reporters calling for a boycott do their homework first and make a list of all companies connected to labor abuse so that we know exactly what the alternatives are?
  • Reply 96 of 122
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


    I think the call for boycott is hypocritical, and a slippery slope. But the Brooklyn Bridge analogy is ... misplaced.



    People died while building the Brooklyn Bridge, due to working conditions deemed acceptable for the time and place, is the analogy misplaced because the workers were brought to the work rather than the work being sent to the workers?
  • Reply 97 of 122
    zozmanzozman Posts: 393member
    I cant believe how many people on here live in fantasy land with a gum drop house on lolly pop lane.

    people can sit on their high horses & talk about the world, with little actual understanding on how the world works, its pretty pathetic reading people random views, read a news paper & understand how the world works, not a chance.

    I think people should worry about their own backyards, getting ones own house in order, like getting an education system, maybe go somewhere overseas, get some perspective & world experience, Idiots....
  • Reply 98 of 122
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,992member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stelligent View Post


    It's easy to call for a boycott, and perhaps not completely unjustifiable to some. But I have questions:



    1. This issue is not new. Where were the sanctimonious calls for boycott before the NYT article?



    2. Will the reporters calling for a boycott do their homework first and make a list of all companies connected to labor abuse so that we know exactly what the alternatives are?



    Perhaps Samsung would be a better candidate.



    One hundred and fifty workers with cancer, fifty already dead and they refuse to pay compensation.



    http://stopsamsung.wordpress.com/2011/09/27/380/



    Android's golden darling is not so golden, after all.
  • Reply 99 of 122
    zoetmbzoetmb Posts: 2,602member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GregInPrague View Post


    (though in America the unions are useless, worse than evil, and a significant reason why all the jobs left)



    That's absolute B.S. Let's say there are no unions and all a company has to pay is federal minimum wage of $7.25 an hour and offer absolutely no benefits. Let's say the employees have a mandatory one-hour lunch which they don't get paid for, 10 holidays which they don't get paid for and 2-weeks off which they don't get pair for.



    That still works out to $12,180 per year (which no one can live on in the U.S. anyway. In most places, housing costs alone would eat all of it.)



    Chinese manufacturing workers are reputed to work up to 60 hours a week for $130 per month ($1560 per year.) Let's say within a few years, Chinese workers DOUBLE their pay to $3120 per year and only work 35 hours per week. That's still only 26% of a U.S. worker's minimum wage with no benefits.



    That's why manufacturing has left the U.S. Not because of unions. Unions do suck in many ways, but they also helped to create the middle-class in the U.S. And now, there's fewer than 15 million American workers covered by unions, mostly public workers.
  • Reply 100 of 122
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by slapppy View Post


    For every one or two articles defending Apple, there are literally dozens more supporting the NYT article. Who are we to believe? This doesn't look good for Apple right now. C/NET, ZDNET, BetaNews, CBS, The Guardian. Yes a call to boycott Apple has been printed by The Guardian. Here are a few points from The Guardian piece. Besides dwindling sales, now this bad Publicity accelerates Apple-iOS downwards trend. Not good at all.



    Leave it to slap-happy to use one of the most ridiculous arguments possible.



    So you determine the truth of something based on how many people say it?



    Let's vote on evolution. That means that evolution occurred in Massachusetts, but did not occur in Oklahoma. After all, more people deny it in OK than in MA.



    The story is either true or it's fabricated. The number of people who copy it doesn't tell you a thing - other than the fact that people like to knock a front-runner off it's perch.



    What the heck, let's vote on gravity......
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