So then you do or do not expect a revolution on the order of the first iPhone with every iPhone release? And do or do not ever expect a similar change with a phone from another manufacturer?
Sigh.
No, I don't expect it to be a revolution. Of course not. I just said I didn't.
Apple, however, kept blowing their horn every year as if it were. When in fact their only significant phone since the original was the iPhone 4. And I'm ready to say the Lumia 920 is more impressive than it.
Seriously? It's definitely overexposed. I like Anand too, but the picture taken there was in control of Nokia, not him. Anand is a computer expert, not a photo expert. I'd say that I'm a photo expert, but you won't believe me anyway.
I don't have problem believing you are good at photography. I don't know how good I am, but was playing with my dad's rangefinders since I was 7, got my first SLR (second hand Nikon F801s) in '91, my first DSLR in 2005... so I did gather some knowledge along the way.
I don't see washed out bright details on that photo, which, by definition, is result of overexposing. I don't mind or care how you choose to call that, but in my eyes it remains that Nokia's gathered much more light and gave significantly more pleasing photo than iPhone, whose image was heavily underexposed.
Anand, much as I was following Anandtech, appears to be camera enthusiast as well, so completely clueless he isn't. Could he be tricked without noticing? Maybe, but not that likely. End of the day, Lumia 920 does have some cool tech in that camera, as described here:
So defending current iPhone 4s camera, in my mind, doesn't make much sense. It is great phone camera, likely the best in its time, but this good it isn't. The only question for me is, what will Apple do for new iPhone's camera. Technology like back lit sensors and image stabilisers is not invented by Nokia, Apple can implement all that and more. I hope they did for 5. I want imaging technology to progress as quick as possible.
And this is different from other manufacturers and other phones in what way?
And that's subjective as all get out.
First people complain that Apple only releases a new phone once a year. Now we get people (probably the same people) complaining that Apple lets you know they have updated their product. WTF?!
So defending current iPhone 4s camera, in my mind, doesn't make much sense. It is great phone camera, likely the best in its time, but this good it isn't. The only question for me is, what will Apple do for new iPhone's camera. Technology like back lit sensors and image stabilisers is not invented by Nokia, Apple can implement all that and more. I hope they did for 5. I want imaging technology to progress as quick as possible.
If by backlit sensors you mean backside illuminated, the iPhone 4S already has that. Image stabilization is a no, because there simply isn't simply space.
New model, not available for a good two months, compared to an old model about to be discontinued. Not a great comparison.
Mel, with all due respect, I believe the comparison is great in the context of the comment I was addressing which declared that the camera would be no better than any other currently available 8Mp phone module.
I got a Lumia 900 to replace my iPhone 4 because, and we all know this is true, Apple is getting complacent with the iPhone.
They aren't creating new and exciting technology anymore, they're just reacting to the competition:
Apple said 7" screens were bad - the market for 7" screens explodes - Apple makes a 7" screen
Market for large form factor phones explodes - Apple rush to make a larger screen
NFC is becoming the big thing - Apple will include it sooner or later and call it magical
And so on and so forth. They used to set the bar but now they're just trying to play catch up with a little bit of "me too!" thrown in there as well.
You started a sentence but haven't finished yet. Why did you get a Lumia 900 to replace the iPhone4? I can't find the answer in your post.
You're speaking about what Apple does wrong, but you didn't explain why you chose the Lumia, why not any other smartphone that has NFC. (if it were your answer to my first question)
If by backlit sensors you mean backside illuminated, the iPhone 4S already has that. Image stabilization is a no, because there simply isn't simply space.
Yes, that's what I meant.
No, I didn't know that... but it makes sense, considering that IP 4s image quality was out of this space when released, especially considering sensor and lens size.
Still. Even if there was no progress in back-illuminated sensors in the last year, I have no problem accepting that wider aperture combined with longer exposure made possible by stabilisation, will provide better low light photography. And then, there might be additional benefit of better image processing algorithms and better lens quality - if Nokia and Zeiss managed to improve on those.
Out of curiosity - who is making iP4s lens, anyway? Can't recall I've spotted that detail.
Just like Apple has a history of producing misleading ads, so I assume you also have no trust of Apple?
It's nice to know you're back and making absurd statements again.
Show where Apple faked something such as this. You can't, because they haven't.
All advertising contains statements that are intended to make their product seem better. But that doesn't include blatantly faking major aspects of your product, which Nokia has been caught doing before.
Show where Apple faked something such as this. You can't, because they haven't.
I think he may be referring to either Siri/3G data ("sequences shortened") or is claiming iPhone 4/iPad video/pictures in their respective media were not taken with the devices themselves. I don't bet he has any proof of it, but that's what I can think of in this regard, at least. What else… oh, wasn't the iPhone punished in Britain for some false something or other?
I've noticed you understand a great deal more of photography than me, but... isn't this the whole point of this particular camera? More time to gather more light?
I'm not sure what that means—more time. If an iPhone, as an example, would take a photo that's several stops underexposed, as the video showed, then how could this take one that was overexposed? Going from f:2.4 to f:2 isn't going to do it. That's less than one stop. But there looked to me to be a good four stops difference between the photo's, maybe more, hard to tell from the video.
EDIT: I don't mean that overexposure is good, just that it could be a logical side-effect of this camera's method for low-light pictures.
That's always possible. I assume they are doing a lot of processing to get an image, and possibly that destroys the proper contrast. I saw that effect with pictures of a woman leaning against a tree that they showed. So if that's part of their technology, it will make a usable, but bad photo under very low light. But if that photo's blown up, it will look terrible.
A problem here is that there's absolutely no point in delivering a high Rez image if it only looks acceptable on the phone screen. And with all that contrast, and all the highlights blown out, it doesn't look good to me. I would have preferred they used something better than what they were shooting. But maybe that's why they chose that rather than to have something with more detail and a full range of colors, such as a bowl of fruit and a background of something detailed. If that got blown out, people would have thought it looked like garbage.
Really? Do tell how.
I'm not saying it is, or it isn't. But a number of articles about in the financial press were saying that investors (who mostly held Nokia stock) were bailing because they didn't think the phones offered more than the competition. That's in addition to the lack of substantial information as to when they were available (one assumption is Nov. 2, my birthday!). How much they would cost, and which carriers had signed on. They also didn't like the fact that as with Microsoft's Surface, they weren't allowed to do anything with the phones, indicating that they were far from ready. There was a concern that the time scale wouldn't give developers enough time to get their apps out. And any wp7 apps that use 3D in any way need that portion to be completely rewritten, such as games. They also told people they couldn't use the phones because they weren't yet FCC approved. That seems to be nuts. So late in the game for that. So the assumption is that the OS isn't yet ready, with Microsoft claiming to have the RDK only out by Oct. 26.
The problem Microsoft and it's ODM's have is that breaking into the smartphone market now, with Android and iOS having a very large, and growing stranglehold on the market is that unless competing products can offer substantially MORE, there isn't a reason for others to go to them. Wp7 wasn't great, just passable. Wp8 MIGHT be great, but we have to get the phones to know. If its just as good, it won't do very well. That's just the way it works.
With the latest JD Power ratings, the iPhone again, for the 8th year, ended on top of the ratings, well ahead. Nokia was well down. They have to make that up. Can they do it with these phones! That's a real question.
I think there's a very real possibility that people just don't like Win Phone. If that's true, then nothing they do will help much.
If you recognize it as such, and Nokia states which photos are taken with their prototype 920, why the distrust?
I haven't seen anyone commenting on the fake iPad camera shot either.
It turns out that those pics were most likely taken with a pro camera as well as pro lighting. This wasn't something Nokia wanted people to know, someone just happened to get some shots of the shoot itself, as was shown on that guys blog. So the pics weren't taken with the 920 at all.
And which fake iPad camera shot are you talking about? Can you show it to us, along with any commentary saying that Apple took a fake shot and proclaimed it was shot with the iPad camera?
Why would you have someone who has a strong foreign accent advertise in ENGISH to english speaking audience.
There are thousands of out of work native english speaking actors and techheads that are pretty enough that could handle this promotional video.
I dont understand why companies do this, have a representative detail the product in there native language.
OK now everyone scream at me how I am a racist now....
The thinking is: If you can understand this guy's version of English, you won't complain when you get a similar version when you call customer service.
It didn't really matter if you could understand him, he was spewing specifications only. Nothing about what you can do with the device to make your life better, a la Apple.
Who's talking about timeframe? You are. You are the one admitting that Siri doesn't have shown functionally but proceeeds to compare Nokia's OIS picture with accelerated sequences instead. You are the one avoiding that Siri's ad is more at fault ignoring that which doesn't please you.
And really. Hunting for all photos? You're just making stuff up now.
Well, you would be right about one thing. Siri can be awfully good at times, and awfully bad at others. I find that most of the time I get what I'm expecting out of it. But there are times where it fails. But there's that silly Android ad where a woman is having a party, and talks to her Android phone as though it's a real person, and supposedly, it responds to everything she's saying. That far worse than any Siri ad I've seen. That was a pretty well distributed ad, so if you watch any tv at all, as you must, if you saw Apple's, you should have seen that one too.
At least with Apple's ads, they don't pretend you can walk around the kitchen and talk to it like a person, while it's on the counter.
If by backlit sensors you mean backside illuminated, the iPhone 4S already has that. Image stabilization is a no, because there simply isn't simply space.
My thinking is that Apple has built stabilization and other tools into the iPhoto app, not in the iPhone camera.
Still waiting for melgross to explain me how on Earth are the Lumias lacking in anything except a release date.
Don't be a wiseass!
I don't hang around this site just so I can respond to you as soon as you post. Some of us have other things to do, even if you do not. I did respond before this post. Next time, just wait!
Actually, those pictures weren't in any Nokia site at all: They appeared in a video about PureView as a tech, in a section talking about the benefits of OIS. Unrelated to all the other pics. Your claims are starting to look more and more ridiculous.
It was done by Nokia, for Nokia, and presented by Nokia as pictures taken by the 920 with available lighting. None of it was real.
I think the iPhone 4S lens and sensor was made by Sony.
I wish MacTracker actually told us this stuff, you know? Not just specs, because we can find those anywhere, but what was used where. Yes, such and such Mac had a such and such capacity hard drive; I want to know what brands they used at the time. Yes, such and such iPhone had a such and such megapixel camera; who made the lens? The sensor?
Since Mountain Lion, MacTracker seems to be good for nothing more than crashing instantaneously every time it opens and having broken scrolling in the categories bar.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
So then you do or do not expect a revolution on the order of the first iPhone with every iPhone release? And do or do not ever expect a similar change with a phone from another manufacturer?
Sigh.
No, I don't expect it to be a revolution. Of course not. I just said I didn't.
Apple, however, kept blowing their horn every year as if it were. When in fact their only significant phone since the original was the iPhone 4. And I'm ready to say the Lumia 920 is more impressive than it.
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac
Apple, however, kept blowing their horn every year as if it were.
And this is different from other manufacturers and other phones in what way?
When in fact their only significant phone since the original was the iPhone 4.
And that's subjective as all get out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac
Still waiting for melgross to explain me how on Earth are the Lumias lacking in anything except a release date.
No fruit logo at the back of the devices.
I don't have problem believing you are good at photography. I don't know how good I am, but was playing with my dad's rangefinders since I was 7, got my first SLR (second hand Nikon F801s) in '91, my first DSLR in 2005... so I did gather some knowledge along the way.
I don't see washed out bright details on that photo, which, by definition, is result of overexposing. I don't mind or care how you choose to call that, but in my eyes it remains that Nokia's gathered much more light and gave significantly more pleasing photo than iPhone, whose image was heavily underexposed.
Anand, much as I was following Anandtech, appears to be camera enthusiast as well, so completely clueless he isn't. Could he be tricked without noticing? Maybe, but not that likely. End of the day, Lumia 920 does have some cool tech in that camera, as described here:
http://blog.gsmarena.com/the-amazing-science-behind-the-nokia-lumia-920-camera-the-second-phase-of-pureview/
So defending current iPhone 4s camera, in my mind, doesn't make much sense. It is great phone camera, likely the best in its time, but this good it isn't. The only question for me is, what will Apple do for new iPhone's camera. Technology like back lit sensors and image stabilisers is not invented by Nokia, Apple can implement all that and more. I hope they did for 5. I want imaging technology to progress as quick as possible.
First people complain that Apple only releases a new phone once a year. Now we get people (probably the same people) complaining that Apple lets you know they have updated their product. WTF?!
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
So defending current iPhone 4s camera, in my mind, doesn't make much sense. It is great phone camera, likely the best in its time, but this good it isn't. The only question for me is, what will Apple do for new iPhone's camera. Technology like back lit sensors and image stabilisers is not invented by Nokia, Apple can implement all that and more. I hope they did for 5. I want imaging technology to progress as quick as possible.
If by backlit sensors you mean backside illuminated, the iPhone 4S already has that. Image stabilization is a no, because there simply isn't simply space.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
New model, not available for a good two months, compared to an old model about to be discontinued. Not a great comparison.
Mel, with all due respect, I believe the comparison is great in the context of the comment I was addressing which declared that the camera would be no better than any other currently available 8Mp phone module.
Quote:
Originally Posted by benanderson89
I got a Lumia 900 to replace my iPhone 4 because, and we all know this is true, Apple is getting complacent with the iPhone.
They aren't creating new and exciting technology anymore, they're just reacting to the competition:
Apple said 7" screens were bad - the market for 7" screens explodes - Apple makes a 7" screen
Market for large form factor phones explodes - Apple rush to make a larger screen
NFC is becoming the big thing - Apple will include it sooner or later and call it magical
And so on and so forth. They used to set the bar but now they're just trying to play catch up with a little bit of "me too!" thrown in there as well.
You started a sentence but haven't finished yet. Why did you get a Lumia 900 to replace the iPhone4? I can't find the answer in your post.
You're speaking about what Apple does wrong, but you didn't explain why you chose the Lumia, why not any other smartphone that has NFC. (if it were your answer to my first question)
Yes, that's what I meant.
No, I didn't know that... but it makes sense, considering that IP 4s image quality was out of this space when released, especially considering sensor and lens size.
Still. Even if there was no progress in back-illuminated sensors in the last year, I have no problem accepting that wider aperture combined with longer exposure made possible by stabilisation, will provide better low light photography. And then, there might be additional benefit of better image processing algorithms and better lens quality - if Nokia and Zeiss managed to improve on those.
Out of curiosity - who is making iP4s lens, anyway? Can't recall I've spotted that detail.
It's nice to know you're back and making absurd statements again.
Show where Apple faked something such as this. You can't, because they haven't.
All advertising contains statements that are intended to make their product seem better. But that doesn't include blatantly faking major aspects of your product, which Nokia has been caught doing before.
Originally Posted by melgross
Show where Apple faked something such as this. You can't, because they haven't.
I think he may be referring to either Siri/3G data ("sequences shortened") or is claiming iPhone 4/iPad video/pictures in their respective media were not taken with the devices themselves. I don't bet he has any proof of it, but that's what I can think of in this regard, at least. What else… oh, wasn't the iPhone punished in Britain for some false something or other?
I'm not sure what that means—more time. If an iPhone, as an example, would take a photo that's several stops underexposed, as the video showed, then how could this take one that was overexposed? Going from f:2.4 to f:2 isn't going to do it. That's less than one stop. But there looked to me to be a good four stops difference between the photo's, maybe more, hard to tell from the video.
That's always possible. I assume they are doing a lot of processing to get an image, and possibly that destroys the proper contrast. I saw that effect with pictures of a woman leaning against a tree that they showed. So if that's part of their technology, it will make a usable, but bad photo under very low light. But if that photo's blown up, it will look terrible.
A problem here is that there's absolutely no point in delivering a high Rez image if it only looks acceptable on the phone screen. And with all that contrast, and all the highlights blown out, it doesn't look good to me. I would have preferred they used something better than what they were shooting. But maybe that's why they chose that rather than to have something with more detail and a full range of colors, such as a bowl of fruit and a background of something detailed. If that got blown out, people would have thought it looked like garbage.
I'm not saying it is, or it isn't. But a number of articles about in the financial press were saying that investors (who mostly held Nokia stock) were bailing because they didn't think the phones offered more than the competition. That's in addition to the lack of substantial information as to when they were available (one assumption is Nov. 2, my birthday!). How much they would cost, and which carriers had signed on. They also didn't like the fact that as with Microsoft's Surface, they weren't allowed to do anything with the phones, indicating that they were far from ready. There was a concern that the time scale wouldn't give developers enough time to get their apps out. And any wp7 apps that use 3D in any way need that portion to be completely rewritten, such as games. They also told people they couldn't use the phones because they weren't yet FCC approved. That seems to be nuts. So late in the game for that. So the assumption is that the OS isn't yet ready, with Microsoft claiming to have the RDK only out by Oct. 26.
The problem Microsoft and it's ODM's have is that breaking into the smartphone market now, with Android and iOS having a very large, and growing stranglehold on the market is that unless competing products can offer substantially MORE, there isn't a reason for others to go to them. Wp7 wasn't great, just passable. Wp8 MIGHT be great, but we have to get the phones to know. If its just as good, it won't do very well. That's just the way it works.
With the latest JD Power ratings, the iPhone again, for the 8th year, ended on top of the ratings, well ahead. Nokia was well down. They have to make that up. Can they do it with these phones! That's a real question.
I think there's a very real possibility that people just don't like Win Phone. If that's true, then nothing they do will help much.
It turns out that those pics were most likely taken with a pro camera as well as pro lighting. This wasn't something Nokia wanted people to know, someone just happened to get some shots of the shoot itself, as was shown on that guys blog. So the pics weren't taken with the 920 at all.
And which fake iPad camera shot are you talking about? Can you show it to us, along with any commentary saying that Apple took a fake shot and proclaimed it was shot with the iPad camera?
Quote:
Originally Posted by DGNR8
Why would you have someone who has a strong foreign accent advertise in ENGISH to english speaking audience.
There are thousands of out of work native english speaking actors and techheads that are pretty enough that could handle this promotional video.
I dont understand why companies do this, have a representative detail the product in there native language.
OK now everyone scream at me how I am a racist now....
The thinking is: If you can understand this guy's version of English, you won't complain when you get a similar version when you call customer service.
It didn't really matter if you could understand him, he was spewing specifications only. Nothing about what you can do with the device to make your life better, a la Apple.
Well, you would be right about one thing. Siri can be awfully good at times, and awfully bad at others. I find that most of the time I get what I'm expecting out of it. But there are times where it fails. But there's that silly Android ad where a woman is having a party, and talks to her Android phone as though it's a real person, and supposedly, it responds to everything she's saying. That far worse than any Siri ad I've seen. That was a pretty well distributed ad, so if you watch any tv at all, as you must, if you saw Apple's, you should have seen that one too.
At least with Apple's ads, they don't pretend you can walk around the kitchen and talk to it like a person, while it's on the counter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lukeskymac
If by backlit sensors you mean backside illuminated, the iPhone 4S already has that. Image stabilization is a no, because there simply isn't simply space.
My thinking is that Apple has built stabilization and other tools into the iPhoto app, not in the iPhone camera.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nikon133
Out of curiosity - who is making iP4s lens, anyway? Can't recall I've spotted that detail.
I think the iPhone 4S lens and sensor was made by Sony.
Don't be a wiseass!
I don't hang around this site just so I can respond to you as soon as you post. Some of us have other things to do, even if you do not. I did respond before this post. Next time, just wait!
It was done by Nokia, for Nokia, and presented by Nokia as pictures taken by the 920 with available lighting. None of it was real.
Originally Posted by Macky the Macky
I think the iPhone 4S lens and sensor was made by Sony.
I wish MacTracker actually told us this stuff, you know? Not just specs, because we can find those anywhere, but what was used where. Yes, such and such Mac had a such and such capacity hard drive; I want to know what brands they used at the time. Yes, such and such iPhone had a such and such megapixel camera; who made the lens? The sensor?
Since Mountain Lion, MacTracker seems to be good for nothing more than crashing instantaneously every time it opens and having broken scrolling in the categories bar.