NYT: iOS Maps another internet services blunder for Apple

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  • Reply 281 of 454

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anonymouse View Post


     


    Since you are so knowledgeable on this topic, what exactly are the respective error rates of Google's map data and Apple's?


     


    Oh, you have no idea? That's what I thought.


     


    What is it about this topic that suddenly has everyone pretending they know what they are talking about.



    Of course I know what I'm talking about. I've installed iOS 6 on my iPhone 4S. It draws battery power noticeably more when compared to iOS 5, maps don't work correctly, Siri seems faster, apps seem to execute faster, sync with iTunes does not work (I have to either delete an app, or add an app before the sync completes without error), I've HEARD that the aluminum back on the iPhone 5 scratches and Apple says that should be expected, the white iPhone 5 bleeds light (I thought they had that problem worked out a couple of years ago), I've heard WiFi has connection problems on the iPhone 5.


     


    This is not pretend. The only way Apple can fix the problem is to accept the problem and fix it! Listening to apologists like you is certain death. 

  • Reply 282 of 454
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by rain View Post




    Quote:

    Originally Posted by 9secondko View Post



    Lol

    Mobile me had launch trouble because of how ambitious it was and quickly became known for being awesome. Not a negative.



    In fact, from MobileMe to iTunes, to iCloud, apple seems to "get" Internet services like few companies do.




    Your so delusional that you almost sound like Tallest.

    iTools was such a collosal piece of shit that Apple killed it. Then came .Mac that was so awesome that 14 whole people world-wide used it... For a few months. Then there was MobileMe, so awesome that they couldn't even give it away free.



    No, mobileme didn't go on to become awesome - it became a running joke.

    Apple has had it's ass handed to them repeatedly by small startups that 'get' it a lot more

    Then them, so i dont know wtf your talking about.



    They have all had the potential to be awesome - but Apples seething greed and need to control markets has always stood in their way.


    Hey you forgot to bash eWorld. Anyway, I had all of those services and they pretty much delivered as advertised. iDisk was a little slow but it worked and I used it. That is the feature I miss the most from the switch to iCloud. Yeah, seething greed. That is why iCloud is free.

  • Reply 283 of 454
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,384member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    I agree that calling for Forstall's head is premature at this time. But I disagree that he's the closest we have to Steve. Though I don't doubt HE thinks he's a mini-Steve. But let's face it both maps and Siri are a bit of an embarrassment. Half the time Siri doesn't work for me. And most people I know who have an iPhone spent more time trying to stump Siri and once that novelty wore off they hardly use it anymore. And the biggest 'wow' we got with Siri in iOS 6 is providing sports scores? Really? That's the best Forstall and team can do?

    Personally I think the hardware teams don't get enough credit. What they did with the A6 chip and getting all that amazing technology in a thinner and lighter device blows away anything the iOS team did with iOS 6 IMO.


     


    You don't have a shred of evidence that the Siri situation would have been different under Jobs, nor maps. Not a shred. It's documented in SJs bio that Steve tested it hardly a month or 2 before his death, so I'm pretty sure as Chairman of the Board he still would have had to clout to tell them to scrap it, and they would have listened. Siri is not comparable to anything else that Apple has done in the past because it's a type of technology that can never, ever be perfected, and I find it a miracle that it works as well as it does with the amount of variables that come into play with speech. For me, it gets it right 95% of the time. As for sports scores? You might not care, but a good chunk of iPhone owners I know spend half their time looking up scores on their phones, so it's something thats commonly accessed and used.


     


    Maps is in the same boat as Siri, an ultra-ambitious project, that again, is nothing like Apple's ever done. It too cannot be perfected in a lab, and it can't be compared to other pieces of software Apple has developed in the past. It's mapping and organizing the world, pretty much the most complex and ambitious thing that can be done. I'd say I've personally had no issues whatsoever with maps and find it a massive upgrade in many ways, but of course I'd get labelled as an Apple apologist or something. The data no doubt needs to be improved and increased in many places in the world, but to classify the entire app as 'crap', 'garbage', an 'embarrassment', appalling' is just being sensational and disengenuous. It has a fantastic foundation, and the stuff that Apple was 100% responsible for including the vector tiles, cartography, turn by turn, iconography, integration with Siri, reviews, flyover (which still blows my mind everytime I use it) is first rate. The data, supplied by a couple dozen other companies, is less so. Apple is ultimately responsible for the results of this data, but is it fair to point to this as evidence of Apple's incompetence in development of the app? I'd say No. 


     


    You bash Forstall over Siri and maps, shoving under the carpet the fact that he's also hugely responsible for EVERYTHING else iOS has to offer and the prime architect of the platform and vision. Have a bit of perspective. 

  • Reply 284 of 454
    mstonemstone Posts: 11,510member


    Off topic:


     


    Man I have been working on my new MBP going on two days and still not done. I can tell you one thing that Migration Assistant does not understand how to work with CS5.5 applications. About 80% fail rate. I ended up having to delete everything and run the clean up utility then start from scratch to reinstall all the applications from my account at Adobe. Of course it gave me the opportunity to switch to CS6 which I already paid for but had not used. Migration assistant inexplicably ignored Maya altogether. To reinstall I needed to get a dmg onto a flash drive which took half the day. I only upgrade every few of years but it is not exactly a walk in the park.

  • Reply 285 of 454

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


     


     


    I agree!


     


     


    That is a very difficult idea to present... We want you to keep using Maps, but here are some specific alternatives that may help you the get over the bumps.


     


    Odd that he didn't mention Navigon, TomTom  or even Street Viewer... but that quickly becomes more information (alternatives) than Apple wants to provide.


     


    It may have been wordsmithed a bit too much.  I think I would have liked a more direct approach -- Something like:


     


    "We hope that you will continue to use Maps and help us to improve it!  For those times when you need added capability, there are alternatives on our app store...."


     


    It's a toughy!



     


    Tim feinted, he deked, he sold the dummy. The furious ones now have an apology and a series of recommended replacements to the completely unserviceable Maps application, which should act as baby soothers for the terminally whiners. And Apple has six months or so to work up Version 1.1, with all the major problems fitted with continuing solutions and notable differentiations from the major Google product.


     


    Cheers

  • Reply 286 of 454
    jmc54jmc54 Posts: 207member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by hypoluxa View Post


    So far using Maps in my area seems to be ok when I looked for things. It pinned them correctly. But we'll see I suppose the more I use to see how it performs. It can only go up from here with future updates. 



    i use it in phoenix and the surrounding area, so far, no problems!


     
  • Reply 287 of 454
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,286member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum View Post


    SOT...


     


    Well, this is the last day of FQ2012 and FY2012... And the iPhone 5 has been on sale for 9 days...


     


    Any SWAG estimates for number sold?


     


    I take 11.5 Million!



    9.5M

  • Reply 288 of 454
    iOS 6 Maps Navigation go me to climbing gym in warehouse district 9 miles from my house today, and I didn't have to take my eyes off the road. This is the easist fix for Apple, bring back Google maps and leave the new map, 2 mapping apps isn't overkill, they each have they're own strengths
  • Reply 289 of 454


    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post

    For instance, why didn't they change their Maps icon to show their new spaceship location instead of 1 Infinite Loop?


     


    Doesn't exist yet. 




    If there's one thing we can take away from the first few weeks of Apple Maps, it's that it refuses to show a location that doesn't exist. image





    Originally Posted by rain View Post

    Your so delusional that you almost sound like Tallest.


     


    My only delusion in recent memory was not thinking MUCH EARLIER to check if you had multiple accounts here.


     


    Funny how the world works when you have to FOLLOW OUR RULES, isn't it? Can't 



    Now crawl back into your damp, mossy hole and hope for a sou'wester. 

  • Reply 290 of 454
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    cpsro wrote: »
    @jragosta: to summarize, IMHO, Cook's letter was not well-crafted. (even the provided instructions seem terse and out of place or rushed).

    And what are your qualifications to make anyone care about your opinion?

    I have extensive CEO experience. Tim Cook doesn't have as many years as me, but a significantly larger company. He also has access to some of the best advisors in the business.

    So why is your opinion more valid than his or my statements?
  • Reply 291 of 454



    #next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
    So far, for me anyway, Apple's Maps have worked as well as Google's. I have found that while Google's maps are good, they haven't always been perfect. While the flyover feature is pretty impressive, I honestly don't find it overly useful. Street view on the other hand has been useful.


     


    I am prepared to give Apple some time to get the kinks worked out. Apple gets lots of press these days and that's a double-edged sword for them. It's great free publicity when things go well and plenty of negative publicity when things aren't perfect. I for one know that Apple isn't perfect, and I don't expect them to be.


     
  • Reply 292 of 454

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by phasornc View Post



    iOS 6 Maps Navigation go me to climbing gym in warehouse district 9 miles from my house today, and I didn't have to take my eyes off the road. This is the easist fix for Apple, bring back Google maps and leave the new map, 2 mapping apps isn't overkill, they each have they're own strengths


     


    I most certainly don't need Google Maps.  Let the door hit their butts on the way out. LOL


     


    Apple Maps rock.  Vector based, Turn-by-turn, Fly-Over, Siri, Point of interest info/pictures/yelp.


     


    Looking forward to third party layers for Subway, Bus, Train, Bike, Walk, boat, submarine, demographics, crime, financial etc...

  • Reply 293 of 454
    y2any2an Posts: 192member


    I think the audaciousness of what Apple has done is going under-recognized. They have launched a brand new maps service which replaces an extremely mature service to their entire customer base (hundreds of millions of installed units in hundreds of countries) at a stroke. To keep the switch hidden as long as possible from Google there was no public beta played out over months or years to gather feedback. The service was scaled at launch to handle the entire request volume already being sent to Google. It's a hugely complex undertaking requiring integration with dozens or perhaps hundreds of data providers worldwide. I can't think of many companies which could have pulled off such a feat. I live in Tokyo and am inconvenienced by some of the teething problems, but I already benefit from some of the new features such as map labels which rotate to my direction of travel. The gap is tuning and tweaks, not technical fundamentals.


     


    To that side by side map comparison in the article - granted that Apple's maps don't have buildings at any zoom level for this location, but the two shots are at different zoom levels which affects the level of detail shown. C'mon AI, reports of same view comparisons really need to be the exact same view.


     


    Also the interesting point about recommending customers try other maps in the App Store underscores how good Apple's free maps are already. Try a few and you quickly realize it's a clever message. AT&T Navigator is only available to subscribers. MapQuest had awful blurry bitmapped map images for Tokyo. Telenav showed an empty screen for Tokyo. Bing installed a Bing app home screen with a search box but no obvious entry to a map of my current location. I wasn't prepared to pay $40 or so to trial a paid service. Apple Maps are free, globally available, and high resolution. Seems like the only real free alternative is Google maps, and they are close to surpassing them.

  • Reply 294 of 454
    tbelltbell Posts: 3,146member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by SolipsismX View Post





    I wholeheartedly disagree with that. The iPhone 4 required a press release because it's a HW product and it needed a lot of explaining and comparison. That is also where they actually make money. Maps isn't just one app it's not even the app itself that is lacking.

    All this is most comparable to the email Apple sent out to customers about the MobileMe debacle (now that was a debacle!). That was a service just as Apple Maps is a service.

    Here is a list of Oops! from Apple. I had forgotten about most of these...


     


     


    I don't think a press event was needed. I, however, don't think Jobs would have handled the issue the same as Tim Cook. He may have called Maps a beta, like when Siri was introduced. Had that been done, there wouldn't be much to complain about. After all a beta is a beta. 


     


    If the press was still up in arms, this situation should have been treated more akin to how Jobs handled Apple spurning Flash. He wrote a letter outlining Apple's position. He never apologized. He also didn't apologize when Apple quickly dropped the price of iPhones and early adopters got mad, or over the antenna gate controversy. 

  • Reply 295 of 454
    Doesn't exist yet. 

    If there's one thing we can take away from the first few weeks of Apple Maps, it's that it refuses to show a location that doesn't exist. :lol:

    Didn't know what to expect from my post but I was hoping for a nice retort. You win the thread.
  • Reply 296 of 454

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by RogueDogRandy View Post


    You are mistaken on just about every comment you made. Sure Apple is not above criticism, but to suggest that hat they deserve "substantial" criticism starts to wreak of typical iHater rhetoric. Just how many of the 5 million ip[hones last week were scratched? forbes reported a few dozen... It was a small isolated instance that I am sure was addressed and rectified promptly. QC at Apple is not lacking, they are the top of consumer satisfaction surveys and will continue to hold that position for a long time to come. Cook and Clan? what the hell is that supposed to mean? You sound like a troll, and an iHater, or maybe just a typical droid dork by the tone of your post. 


    Apple are doomed to mediocrity huh? Is that what their sales numbers and satisfaction surveys say? Guess again, iThink you need to step back and take a deep breathe before you post such ridiculous ill-informed comments again.


     


    By the way, Apple is shining like never before and it keeps getting brighter. We all wish Steve Jobs was still here to enjoy the wonderful devices and products Apple are introducing, If he were here I am sure he would be smiling knowing that Apple are diminishing  goofles presence on their awesome iDevices.



    To say that that the scratches are isolated to a few dozen, and therefore should be discounted, flies in the face of Shiller's comments that aluminum is supposed to scratch and that is normal. Please, get a clue. In the law, we call that an admission against interest. You clearly suffer from the belief that factless arguments have persuasive value -- I suppose you and your like-"minded" cohorts believe that, but those of us with functioning neurons certainly don't buy it. 


     


    Many a company or product has gone under or lost prior significance when past success is paraded instead of facing the reality of current failure. Name some? HP, Dec, RIM, Nokia, GM, American Motors, Chrysler, Univac, Burroughs, Datacraft, WordPerfect, Novell, Palm, Borland, Xerox, Kodak, Polaroid, Sybase, Sun, Motorola, Fiat, Msft?, IBM, Borders, Computerland, Best Buy?, Powerbuilder, Flash, Compaq, Dell, Sony Ericcson, Sears, JC Penney, Saab, Sony Walkman, Sega, Commodore, ? I'm sure I could think of many more with a little more time. 


     


    Apple's prior successes is due to real innovation, and Job's motto (or it is Apple's) that "the good is enemy of the best". Apple has been producing the "best" for the last 10 years. Apologists like you are Apple's worst enemies. 

  • Reply 297 of 454

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by y2an View Post


    I think the audaciousness of what Apple has done is going under-recognized. They have launched a brand new maps service which replaces an extremely mature service to their entire customer base (hundreds of millions of installed units in hundreds of countries) at a stroke. To keep the switch hidden as long as possible from Google there was no public beta played out over months or years to gather feedback. The service was scaled at launch to handle the entire request volume already being sent to Google. It's a hugely complex undertaking requiring integration with dozens or perhaps hundreds of data providers worldwide. I can't think of many companies which could have pulled off such a feat. I live in Tokyo and am inconvenienced by some of the teething problems, but I already benefit from some of the new features such as map labels which rotate to my direction of travel. The gap is tuning and tweaks, not technical fundamentals.


     


    To that side by side map comparison in the article - granted that Apple's maps don't have buildings at any zoom level for this location, but the two shots are at different zoom levels which affects the level of detail shown. C'mon AI, reports of same view comparisons really need to be the exact same view.


     


    Also the interesting point about recommending customers try other maps in the App Store underscores how good Apple's free maps are already. Try a few and you quickly realize it's a clever message. AT&T Navigator is only available to subscribers. MapQuest had awful blurry bitmapped map images for Tokyo. Telenav showed an empty screen for Tokyo. Bing installed a Bing app home screen with a search box but no obvious entry to a map of my current location. I wasn't prepared to pay $40 or so to trial a paid service. Apple Maps are free, globally available, and high resolution. Seems like the only real free alternative is Google maps, and they are close to surpassing them.



     


    Quote:


    The service was scaled at launch to handle the entire request volume already being sent to Google. It's a hugely complex undertaking requiring integration with dozens or perhaps hundreds of data providers worldwide. I can't think of many companies which could have pulled off such a feat.



     


     


    Duh... Slaps forehead... You hit on something that everyone missed -- at least I have not heard any complaints of poor performance of Apple maps.  Just the opposite, many comments of improved performance over Google maps.  


     


    Couple that with all the extraordinary Apple map requests to:



    • just checkout the new app


    • see what all the fuss is about


    • visit places with errors touted by the press


    • refine and re-search for requests that returned invalid results


    • look for more errors vis a vis Google maps


    • play with 3D


    • play with TBT


     


    We've had the iOS 6 beta on 4 iPads and 3 iPhones (2 iP4 and 1 iP4S) for months,  We got another iP4S on the 21st and 2 iP5s on the 26th and 28th.  In all this time, we've been experimenting with the Apple maps app, and it performed well -- as expected...  We  do most of our map requests on iPads over WiFi -- bigger maps, more data returned, more zooming, more 3D... more bandwidth.


     


    Then comes the 1st week of iPhone 5 and iOS 6 availability and 1/2 Billion new map requests to Apple Servers -- and there was no degradation in performance.


     


    This is a much larger ramp up than the server request volume that brought MobleMe, then Siri performance to its knees.


     


     


    This is the great, untold success story of Apple maps... Apple can handle the requests volume...  Service competitors, take note!

  • Reply 298 of 454

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Cpsro View Post


    IMHO it was a mistake for Cook to mention competitors by name in his letter and to provide user instructions, rather than referring customers to a helpful website. For instance, many iPhone users may have no idea what is meant when he suggests making web app icons. In the opening paragraph he also states the company is doing everything it can to make Maps "better" instead of the best. It's easy to make something better, especially if you're conceding it's not so great to begin with. Just make it a tiny bit better. Now, making something the best is a goal worthy of talking about. Making something only "better" suggests a lack of inspiration and commitment. I know, I know, in the last paragraph he writes about making Maps the best in the world, but the opening paragraph really sets the tone.



    The mention of other competitors is minor. What is not minor is the inference that it will be quite a while before Apple corrects the problems with its own solution, and offers services at least comparable to its competitors. That, alone, is telling. It seems honest, by that inference.

  • Reply 299 of 454
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    y2an wrote: »
    I think the audaciousness of what Apple has done is going under-recognized. They have launched a brand new maps service which replaces an extremely mature service to their entire customer base (hundreds of millions of installed units in hundreds of countries) at a stroke. To keep the switch hidden as long as possible from Google there was no public beta played out over months or years to gather feedback. The service was scaled at launch to handle the entire request volume already being sent to Google. It's a hugely complex undertaking requiring integration with dozens or perhaps hundreds of data providers worldwide. I can't think of many companies which could have pulled off such a feat. I live in Tokyo and am inconvenienced by some of the teething problems, but I already benefit from some of the new features such as map labels which rotate to my direction of travel. The gap is tuning and tweaks, not technical fundamentals.

    Thanks for bringing up that excellent point. Very few (if any) other companies could have pulled that off - and it was a massive win for Apple overall (at least after the noise settles).

    tbell wrote: »

    I don't think a press event was needed. I, however, don't think Jobs would have handled the issue the same as Tim Cook. He may have called Maps a beta, like when Siri was introduced. Had that been done, there wouldn't be much to complain about. After all a beta is a beta. 

    If the press was still up in arms, this situation should have been treated more akin to how Jobs handled Apple spurning Flash. He wrote a letter outlining Apple's position. He never apologized. He also didn't apologize when Apple quickly dropped the price of iPhones and early adopters got mad, or over the antenna gate controversy. 

    Cook is not Jobs. Maybe you've forgotten how often Jobs was criticized for his attitude. Cook accomplished the same thing, but without the attitude.

    And they couldn't have called it a beta. If they had done so, then the criticisms for removing Google Maps would have been justified. Furthermore, by most reports (once you get past the hysteria), it's not a beta. It's a very powerful mapping solution.

    Doesn't exist yet. 


    If there's one thing we can take away from the first few weeks of Apple Maps, it's that it refuses to show a location that doesn't exist. :lol:

    Well played.
    The mention of other competitors is minor. What is not minor is the inference that it will be quite a while before Apple corrects the problems with its own solution, and offers services at least comparable to its competitors. That, alone, is telling. It seems honest, by that inference.

    I don't think that's the way most people will take it. They'll use Maps knowing that there's a backup if there's ever a problem. I really doubt if many people will ignore that big 'Maps' icon on their home screen.

    Everyone seems to be missing the point of Cook's letter. It was not targeted at Apple's mass audience. 99% of those people will never see it. It was targeted at the tiny percentage of geeks and media who is trying to make an issue out of it. Basically, he took the wind out of their sails - but without harming their reputation since only a tiny number of people will ever see the letter.
  • Reply 300 of 454
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,384member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by waldobushman View Post


    To say that that the scratches are isolated to a few dozen, and therefore should be discounted, flies in the face of Shiller's comments that aluminum is supposed to scratch and that is normal. Please, get a clue. In the law, we call that an admission against interest. You clearly suffer from the belief that factless arguments have persuasive value -- I suppose you and your like-"minded" cohorts believe that, but those of us with functioning neurons certainly don't buy it. 


     


    Many a company or product has gone under or lost prior significance when past success is paraded instead of facing the reality of current failure. Name some? HP, Dec, RIM, Nokia, GM, American Motors, Chrysler, Univac, Burroughs, Datacraft, WordPerfect, Novell, Palm, Borland, Xerox, Kodak, Polaroid, Sybase, Sun, Motorola, Fiat, Msft?, IBM, Borders, Computerland, Best Buy?, Powerbuilder, Flash, Compaq, Dell, Sony Ericcson, Sears, JC Penney, Saab, Sony Walkman, Sega, Commodore, ? I'm sure I could think of many more with a little more time. 


     


    Apple's prior successes is due to real innovation, and Job's motto (or it is Apple's) that "the good is enemy of the best". Apple has been producing the "best" for the last 10 years. Apologists like you are Apple's worst enemies. 



     


    No, it doesn't fly in the face of anything. Schiller's comments were in response to the hyperventilating hysteria that YES METAL CAN SCRATCH! There's no indication this is any type of flaw- I haven't seen a single scratch on a single iPhone 5 display model I've inspected, either in BB, Walmarts, of Apple Stores, which are handled by THOUSANDS of people. He's responding to the sensational, click-whore videos like the iFix it one, where she makes her 2 year old smash keys as hard as she can on the back of the iPhone, then rub them all over, again, and again, and again- and when it manages to show some visible scratching, that exposes the FLAW in the device. It's unbelievable. Nothing about your post makes a lick of sense, least of which is that list of companies. Why did you waste your time? You clearly don't own an iPhone 5 nor have experience with it scratching, yet you're so confident that the internet noise machine is somehow indicative of reality, where 5+ million phones have already been sold. On the internet, 50 people with blogs can make enough noise to make it seem like a 'majority', and people like you with no perspective fall for it. 


     


    As for your definition of "innovation", read this Gizmodo review, and although I'm not a fan of of the site, this is honest impressions from someone who has owned and used the phone for a week. He's insanely impressed with the build quality of the phone, as are millions of others, and I put more stock in that than your clear, frothing at the mouth Apple-hating post which contains no facts but alot of vitriol. 


     


    http://gizmodo.com/5946599/a-week-with-the-iphone-5

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