As others have already stated, I would have liked to hear more of his thoughts on the specific failures and issues as well as ideas for improvements.
My take is that he really wishes the world and people were more "idealic" than they really are. I've had such thoughts before, "if only everyone could realize their full potential, the world would be an amazing place." But it's not reality. The incredibly driven people such as Steve Jobs (whom are also blessed with vision) are the ones who make things happen. Unfortunately, I think we're more headed towards the "Ideocracy" future than Alan's vision.
You are a bunch of Apple fanatics! You don't even know who Alan Kay is:
"In 1970, Kay joined Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC. In the 1970s he was one of the key members there to develop prototypes of networked workstations using the programming language Smalltalk. These inventions were later commercialized by Apple Computer in their Lisa and Macintosh computers.
Kay is one of the fathers of the idea of object-oriented programming, which he named, along with some colleagues at PARC and predecessors at the Norwegian Computing Center."
If God himself came down and said "this doesn't live up to my ideas of how it should have been done" with no details, it would be a useless statement.
Simply saying "it's not what I envisioned" is equally useless. Your work at PARC wasn't all that great - Apple had to redesign everything to make it usable. Apple has 30+ years of experience in making the best UI experience on the planet.
Now, that doesn't make them perfect and there are undoubtedly ways that their UI could be improved. If you have some ideas, be specific so people can see if they really WOULD be better. But without that, your complaining is useless.
That isn't a good argument because Windows and netbooks are or were, respectively, selling so many.
Windows was thrust upon people. They didn't necessarily choose it over something else. We've moved from an enterprise computing culture to a consumer computing culture. Individuals get to choose what they want and break away from the shackles of forced "compatibility". In the 80's and 90's, IT departments told employees what they were using and to remain compatible, they bought the same for home (not to mention corporate PC discounts for employees). In the early 2000's, IT departments told people what type of "smartphones" they had to use. The iPhone and iPad have changed that. Employees have overwhelmed IT departments, as well as top executives, with requests for supporting "other" platforms.
iPad's user interface is directly related to its success. Touch interfaces were shrunk down counterparts to desktop point&click. Apple redesigned the user interface for multi-touch. Alan Kay is a brilliant person who may just be stuck on a one-way street and unable to accept that something else worked just as well as his "vision" was supposed to, if not better. This happens all the time with people who were at one time at the forefront of technology and innovation - egos are hard to give up.
Interesting to refer to Jobs' Apple as having a "corporate organization and process" of failure, especially coming from someone at Xerox PARC, where nothing escaped in the form of a real product.
You are a bunch of Apple fanatics! You don't even know who Alan Kay is:
"In 1970, Kay joined Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC. In the 1970s he was one of the key members there to develop prototypes of networked workstations using the programming language Smalltalk. These inventions were later commercialized by Apple Computer in their Lisa and Macintosh computers.
I know very well who Kay is. I have great respect for his previous work. It is easy, however, to say the UI falls short without offering any specifics. It is easy to say there were flaws in the original PARC GUI designs that are still present but not say what they are. The existing designs don't match what he envisioned 40 years ago that does not surprise me but he got if right in many ways and that is the mark of a true visionary. You don't have to get it 100% right.
Is his only complaint that most people consume and don't create content? That is true on PC's with a keyboard as well as the iPad and has little to do with the actual UI but the mindset of people.
I think his "myriad of ways" and "disappointment in the progression of the human-computer interface" comments are less than helpful and don't see why he couldn't have detailed some ideas if he has them.
Easy to take potshots from ivory towers, isn't it?
But look at it this way: iPad has been on the market for barely three years, the post-PC era is therefore in its infancy, and there's still plenty of room for improvement.
In regards to limitations, the vast majority of people should not be administrators on their own computers. Others will love to change things, program, etc. iPad is a consumer device. I think we will see more management/upgrades done over a network by the system manufacturer in the future. It hasn't worked too well the other way, quite frankly. Those that want to do it themselves will still do so. There will always be jailbreaking and rooting, but it isn't for most people.
You are a bunch of Apple fanatics! You don't even know who Alan Kay is:
"In 1970, Kay joined Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC. In the 1970s he was one of the key members there to develop prototypes of networked workstations using the programming language Smalltalk. These inventions were later commercialized by Apple Computer in their Lisa and Macintosh computers.
You know, for his entire life, Henry Ford thought that they should ONLY produce one model of car at a time. You can respect someone for what they once accomplished and how they helped shape modern times, but that doesn't make them correct all the time.
No one doubts that Alan Kay is a brilliant man, but he's not making an argument, he's whining that his untested concepts are better than something that clearly works well.
How many of you who've criticized Kay know who he is?
He's just like Steve Wozniak and Ray Kurzweil; great past accomplishments but irrelevant today. That's who Alan Kay is and you know it.
Meanwhile the old axiom still holds true. If you want attention, bash Apple. He wouldn't bash Android or Samsung or Google because nobody would care. Bash Apple, though, and ears perk up, noses sniff the air, and heads turn to see what's going on. It really is that simple.
I love all these people, who although did some critical work ages ago and should be lauded for it, have been irrelevant for decades, and come out of the woodwork to bash the current direction of products, and have a special hatred of Apple. Richard Stallman, Alan Kay, and even Woz- they offer no real constructive critisism, no discussion of well thought out improvements that would make sense in the real world, only comparing shipping products to whatever imaginary product that fits their philoshy/ideals but which absolutely has no chance at consumer success in the marketplace. If iOS was based on a terminal, these people would be happier no doubt. Would give the user full "freedom" to program whatever the **** they want for themselves, cause clearly thats what people are clamoring for.
Big whoop. What's he worked on lately? He sounds like another Woz. They love to criticize, but have they done anything lately themselves.
And he's not just criticizing Apple, he's criticizing all computing in general (Android, Win8, Blackberry). So it's not about being Apple fanatics.
Why didn't his Dynabook thingy become "the" big thing if it's so great?
Kay is not another Woz. His legacy is far, far, far more significant. As for what he has done lately, he has been trying to stimulate education reform.
Why didn't the Dynabook become "the big thing"? Effectively, it did. The Dynabook was a concept developed in the late 60s, early 70s. Try and imagine processing power available then! Those were the days before Intel, before Motorola's 68000 or even the 6502. Yet, without knowing how much computing power could grow, Alan Kay could imagine something like the Dynabook. And some of the ignorant people here deign to mock Alan Kay for not shipping?
As a concept, the Dynabook was the precursor to the Alto, which engendered the Mac, which in turn evolved into the iPad. Smalltalk, which he developed for the Dynabook, was the precursor to Objective C. You can draw a straight line from the Dynabook to every single significant Apple product after Apple II.
The guy does not have a single constructive thing to offer.
Nor do you (in your berating of other posters). Why don't you tell us why you're "... all for him criticising the iPad"? What specifically would you criticize?
He's just like Steve Wozniak and Ray Kurzweil; great past accomplishments but irrelevant today. That's who Alan Kay is and you know it.
Meanwhile the old axiom still holds true. If you want attention, bash Apple. He wouldn't bash Android or Samsung or Google because nobody would care. Bash Apple, though, and ears perk up, noses sniff the air, and heads turn to see what's going on. It really is that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I love all these people, who although did some critical work ages ago and should be lauded for it, have been irrelevant for decades, and come out of the woodwork to bash the current direction of products, and have a special hatred of Apple. Richard Stallman, Alan Kay, and even Woz- they offer no real constructive critisism, no discussion of well thought out improvements that would make sense in the real world, only comparing shipping products to whatever imaginary product that fits their philoshy/ideals but which absolutely has no chance at consumer success in the marketplace. If iOS was based on a terminal, these people would be happier no doubt. Would give the user full "freedom" to program whatever the **** they want for themselves, cause clearly thats what people are clamoring for.
As I read through AI's exact transcript of Kay's words, I saw nothing constructive and only a few statements that made me irrationally angry! /s
Several of you have pointed out that Kay, one of the fathers of the GUI as we know it today, is another man who can be added to the list of computing pioneers unhappy with the functionality of iOS. Do you think that means we should conclude that these experts have a point and that we should discuss how iOS can improve? Or instead should we plug our ears and close our eyes while making a blabbering noise to drown out the unpleasant news?
Kay is not another Woz. His legacy is far, far, far more significant. As for what he has done lately, he has been trying to stimulate education reform.
Why didn't the Dynabook become "the big thing"? Effectively, it did. The Dynabook was a concept developed in the late 60s, early 70s. Try and imagine processing power available then! Those were the days before Intel, before Motorola's 68000 or even the 6502. Yet, without knowing how much computing power could grow, Alan Kay could imagine something like the Dynabook. And some of the ignorant people here deign to mock Alan Kay for not shipping?
As a concept, the Dynabook was the precursor to the Alto, which engendered the Mac, which in turn evolved into the iPad. Smalltalk, which he developed for the Dynabook, was the precursor to Objective C. You can draw a straight line from the Dynabook to every single significant Apple product after Apple II.
Get to know someone before you criticize them.
So, by that logic, the Wright Brothers should be criticizing Boeing for the design of the 787 or NASA for the design of the space shuttle.
After all, the Wright Brothers had a great idea and the current implementation is imperfect.
Kay is not another Woz. His legacy is far, far, far more significant. As for what he has done lately, he has been trying to stimulate education reform.
Why didn't the Dynabook become "the big thing"? Effectively, it did. The Dynabook was a concept developed in the late 60s, early 70s. Try and imagine processing power available then! Those were the days before Intel, before Motorola's 68000 or even the 6502. Yet, without knowing how much computing power could grow, Alan Kay could imagine something like the Dynabook. And some of the ignorant people here deign to mock Alan Kay for not shipping?
As a concept, the Dynabook was the precursor to the Alto, which engendered the Mac, which in turn evolved into the iPad. Smalltalk, which he developed for the Dynabook, was the precursor to Objective C. You can draw a straight line from the Dynabook to every single significant Apple product after Apple II.
Get to know someone before you criticize them.
Stop hyperventilating. The issue is not his legacy or his past contributions -- no one has questioned that. It whether he makes any sense at all in his current critique.
He's just like Steve Wozniak and Ray Kurzweil; great past accomplishments but irrelevant today. That's who Alan Kay is and you know it.
Meanwhile the old axiom still holds true. If you want attention, bash Apple. He wouldn't bash Android or Samsung or Google because nobody would care. Bash Apple, though, and ears perk up, noses sniff the air, and heads turn to see what's going on. It really is that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I love all these people, who although did some critical work ages ago and should be lauded for it, have been irrelevant for decades, and come out of the woodwork to bash the current direction of products, and have a special hatred of Apple. Richard Stallman, Alan Kay, and even Woz- they offer no real constructive critisism, no discussion of well thought out improvements that would make sense in the real world, only comparing shipping products to whatever imaginary product that fits their philoshy/ideals but which absolutely has no chance at consumer success in the marketplace. If iOS was based on a terminal, these people would be happier no doubt. Would give the user full "freedom" to program whatever the **** they want for themselves, cause clearly thats what people are clamoring for.
Comments
As others have already stated, I would have liked to hear more of his thoughts on the specific failures and issues as well as ideas for improvements.
My take is that he really wishes the world and people were more "idealic" than they really are. I've had such thoughts before, "if only everyone could realize their full potential, the world would be an amazing place." But it's not reality. The incredibly driven people such as Steve Jobs (whom are also blessed with vision) are the ones who make things happen. Unfortunately, I think we're more headed towards the "Ideocracy" future than Alan's vision.
So what?
If God himself came down and said "this doesn't live up to my ideas of how it should have been done" with no details, it would be a useless statement.
Simply saying "it's not what I envisioned" is equally useless. Your work at PARC wasn't all that great - Apple had to redesign everything to make it usable. Apple has 30+ years of experience in making the best UI experience on the planet.
Now, that doesn't make them perfect and there are undoubtedly ways that their UI could be improved. If you have some ideas, be specific so people can see if they really WOULD be better. But without that, your complaining is useless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez
I'm guessing more than a few here appreciate the irony of that comment in the context of this thread.
Speaking of irony, I find your username to be quite ironic.
Fu(k you!
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
That isn't a good argument because Windows and netbooks are or were, respectively, selling so many.
Windows was thrust upon people. They didn't necessarily choose it over something else. We've moved from an enterprise computing culture to a consumer computing culture. Individuals get to choose what they want and break away from the shackles of forced "compatibility". In the 80's and 90's, IT departments told employees what they were using and to remain compatible, they bought the same for home (not to mention corporate PC discounts for employees). In the early 2000's, IT departments told people what type of "smartphones" they had to use. The iPhone and iPad have changed that. Employees have overwhelmed IT departments, as well as top executives, with requests for supporting "other" platforms.
iPad's user interface is directly related to its success. Touch interfaces were shrunk down counterparts to desktop point&click. Apple redesigned the user interface for multi-touch. Alan Kay is a brilliant person who may just be stuck on a one-way street and unable to accept that something else worked just as well as his "vision" was supposed to, if not better. This happens all the time with people who were at one time at the forefront of technology and innovation - egos are hard to give up.
Academia is great at offering criticism.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NelsonX
You are a bunch of Apple fanatics! You don't even know who Alan Kay is:
"In 1970, Kay joined Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC. In the 1970s he was one of the key members there to develop prototypes of networked workstations using the programming language Smalltalk. These inventions were later commercialized by Apple Computer in their Lisa and Macintosh computers.
Kay is one of the fathers of the idea of object-oriented programming, which he named, along with some colleagues at PARC and predecessors at the Norwegian Computing Center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay
I know very well who Kay is. I have great respect for his previous work. It is easy, however, to say the UI falls short without offering any specifics. It is easy to say there were flaws in the original PARC GUI designs that are still present but not say what they are. The existing designs don't match what he envisioned 40 years ago that does not surprise me but he got if right in many ways and that is the mark of a true visionary. You don't have to get it 100% right.
Is his only complaint that most people consume and don't create content? That is true on PC's with a keyboard as well as the iPad and has little to do with the actual UI but the mindset of people.
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I think his "myriad of ways" and "disappointment in the progression of the human-computer interface" comments are less than helpful and don't see why he couldn't have detailed some ideas if he has them.
Easy to take potshots from ivory towers, isn't it?
But look at it this way: iPad has been on the market for barely three years, the post-PC era is therefore in its infancy, and there's still plenty of room for improvement.
In regards to limitations, the vast majority of people should not be administrators on their own computers. Others will love to change things, program, etc. iPad is a consumer device. I think we will see more management/upgrades done over a network by the system manufacturer in the future. It hasn't worked too well the other way, quite frankly. Those that want to do it themselves will still do so. There will always be jailbreaking and rooting, but it isn't for most people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by NelsonX
You are a bunch of Apple fanatics! You don't even know who Alan Kay is:
"In 1970, Kay joined Xerox Corporation's Palo Alto Research Center, PARC. In the 1970s he was one of the key members there to develop prototypes of networked workstations using the programming language Smalltalk. These inventions were later commercialized by Apple Computer in their Lisa and Macintosh computers.
Kay is one of the fathers of the idea of object-oriented programming, which he named, along with some colleagues at PARC and predecessors at the Norwegian Computing Center."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Kay
You know, for his entire life, Henry Ford thought that they should ONLY produce one model of car at a time. You can respect someone for what they once accomplished and how they helped shape modern times, but that doesn't make them correct all the time.
No one doubts that Alan Kay is a brilliant man, but he's not making an argument, he's whining that his untested concepts are better than something that clearly works well.
deleted
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez
Wow. Lots of vitriol of AI's enemy du jour.
How many of you who've criticized Kay know who he is?
He's just like Steve Wozniak and Ray Kurzweil; great past accomplishments but irrelevant today. That's who Alan Kay is and you know it.
Meanwhile the old axiom still holds true. If you want attention, bash Apple. He wouldn't bash Android or Samsung or Google because nobody would care. Bash Apple, though, and ears perk up, noses sniff the air, and heads turn to see what's going on. It really is that simple.
I love all these people, who although did some critical work ages ago and should be lauded for it, have been irrelevant for decades, and come out of the woodwork to bash the current direction of products, and have a special hatred of Apple. Richard Stallman, Alan Kay, and even Woz- they offer no real constructive critisism, no discussion of well thought out improvements that would make sense in the real world, only comparing shipping products to whatever imaginary product that fits their philoshy/ideals but which absolutely has no chance at consumer success in the marketplace. If iOS was based on a terminal, these people would be happier no doubt. Would give the user full "freedom" to program whatever the **** they want for themselves, cause clearly thats what people are clamoring for.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard
Big whoop. What's he worked on lately? He sounds like another Woz. They love to criticize, but have they done anything lately themselves.
And he's not just criticizing Apple, he's criticizing all computing in general (Android, Win8, Blackberry). So it's not about being Apple fanatics.
Why didn't his Dynabook thingy become "the" big thing if it's so great?
Kay is not another Woz. His legacy is far, far, far more significant. As for what he has done lately, he has been trying to stimulate education reform.
Why didn't the Dynabook become "the big thing"? Effectively, it did. The Dynabook was a concept developed in the late 60s, early 70s. Try and imagine processing power available then! Those were the days before Intel, before Motorola's 68000 or even the 6502. Yet, without knowing how much computing power could grow, Alan Kay could imagine something like the Dynabook. And some of the ignorant people here deign to mock Alan Kay for not shipping?
As a concept, the Dynabook was the precursor to the Alto, which engendered the Mac, which in turn evolved into the iPad. Smalltalk, which he developed for the Dynabook, was the precursor to Objective C. You can draw a straight line from the Dynabook to every single significant Apple product after Apple II.
Get to know someone before you criticize them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
The guy does not have a single constructive thing to offer.
Nor do you (in your berating of other posters). Why don't you tell us why you're "... all for him criticising the iPad"? What specifically would you criticize?
What are you talking about?
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp
He's just like Steve Wozniak and Ray Kurzweil; great past accomplishments but irrelevant today. That's who Alan Kay is and you know it.
Meanwhile the old axiom still holds true. If you want attention, bash Apple. He wouldn't bash Android or Samsung or Google because nobody would care. Bash Apple, though, and ears perk up, noses sniff the air, and heads turn to see what's going on. It really is that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I love all these people, who although did some critical work ages ago and should be lauded for it, have been irrelevant for decades, and come out of the woodwork to bash the current direction of products, and have a special hatred of Apple. Richard Stallman, Alan Kay, and even Woz- they offer no real constructive critisism, no discussion of well thought out improvements that would make sense in the real world, only comparing shipping products to whatever imaginary product that fits their philoshy/ideals but which absolutely has no chance at consumer success in the marketplace. If iOS was based on a terminal, these people would be happier no doubt. Would give the user full "freedom" to program whatever the **** they want for themselves, cause clearly thats what people are clamoring for.
You two know SHIT.
As I read through AI's exact transcript of Kay's words, I saw nothing constructive and only a few statements that made me irrationally angry! /s
Several of you have pointed out that Kay, one of the fathers of the GUI as we know it today, is another man who can be added to the list of computing pioneers unhappy with the functionality of iOS. Do you think that means we should conclude that these experts have a point and that we should discuss how iOS can improve? Or instead should we plug our ears and close our eyes while making a blabbering noise to drown out the unpleasant news?
So, by that logic, the Wright Brothers should be criticizing Boeing for the design of the 787 or NASA for the design of the space shuttle.
After all, the Wright Brothers had a great idea and the current implementation is imperfect.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
Kay is not another Woz. His legacy is far, far, far more significant. As for what he has done lately, he has been trying to stimulate education reform.
Why didn't the Dynabook become "the big thing"? Effectively, it did. The Dynabook was a concept developed in the late 60s, early 70s. Try and imagine processing power available then! Those were the days before Intel, before Motorola's 68000 or even the 6502. Yet, without knowing how much computing power could grow, Alan Kay could imagine something like the Dynabook. And some of the ignorant people here deign to mock Alan Kay for not shipping?
As a concept, the Dynabook was the precursor to the Alto, which engendered the Mac, which in turn evolved into the iPad. Smalltalk, which he developed for the Dynabook, was the precursor to Objective C. You can draw a straight line from the Dynabook to every single significant Apple product after Apple II.
Get to know someone before you criticize them.
Stop hyperventilating. The issue is not his legacy or his past contributions -- no one has questioned that. It whether he makes any sense at all in his current critique.
Quote:
Originally Posted by stelligent
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkrupp
He's just like Steve Wozniak and Ray Kurzweil; great past accomplishments but irrelevant today. That's who Alan Kay is and you know it.
Meanwhile the old axiom still holds true. If you want attention, bash Apple. He wouldn't bash Android or Samsung or Google because nobody would care. Bash Apple, though, and ears perk up, noses sniff the air, and heads turn to see what's going on. It really is that simple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I love all these people, who although did some critical work ages ago and should be lauded for it, have been irrelevant for decades, and come out of the woodwork to bash the current direction of products, and have a special hatred of Apple. Richard Stallman, Alan Kay, and even Woz- they offer no real constructive critisism, no discussion of well thought out improvements that would make sense in the real world, only comparing shipping products to whatever imaginary product that fits their philoshy/ideals but which absolutely has no chance at consumer success in the marketplace. If iOS was based on a terminal, these people would be happier no doubt. Would give the user full "freedom" to program whatever the **** they want for themselves, cause clearly thats what people are clamoring for.
You two know SHIT.
Wow. How's this helpful?!