Apple faces backlash over missing, changed functions in iWork revamp

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  • Reply 41 of 218
    glnfglnf Posts: 39member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

     

    ... iWork was rewritten to achieve parity on a roadmap to the future.  It was critical and necessary.  Like FCPX, the features will be restored in time and until then, '09 will continue to function normally.  Nothing is lost.


     

    Nothing is lost? Our Media and Film University where I sometimes give lectures has migrated completely away from Final Cut Studio to Adobe and Avid products. Why not FCPX? For the simple reason that you can't educate future industry professionals on a tool that might not exist anymore when they graduate in 3 years. I'm talking about several hundred graduates each year in out city alone. Btw. Final Cut Studio was besides Logic the main reason creative people work on Apple computers. When you go Adobe you can as well use a window machine. And thats what a lot of students are now doing

  • Reply 42 of 218
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,758member
    I think this "fiasco" comes down to two issues.

    1/. Communication. Users shouldn't have had to discover by using the app upgrades that things have changed. There should have been indications at the app launch event that there would be some differences in functionality. Maybe the software should have been designated a new name. The iWork for iOS updates that came bundled with 7.0.3 should have been optional. When opening old version files, the new app could have listed in a dialog box which features in the opened file it no longer supported and allowed a user to bail out.

    Making things worse is the silent treatment Apple gives its customers; seemingly priding itself on its policies of not commenting or responding.

    Let's get one thing straight: this is not The Acme Computer Company we're talking about here. This is Apple. One of the most profitable companies in the world. They could "personally respond" to every email, gripe and feature request... if they really wanted to.

    2/. Trust. When people and companies adopt a given software application, they literally invest in it; in both time and money. It's a commitment that should be honoured. Apple depended on pro users who saw the company through its darkest times... then rewarded them by dropping support for things like Final Cut Server. Again, Apple has more than enough money in the bank to keep supporting-- and developing!-- older versions of software applications like FCP7 and even iWork 09... to make a firm commitment to its loyal users that their investment in Apple products is safe into the future.

    My livelihood depends on Keynote. When features I depend on are removed I get nervous. I start to worry that I might be left high and dry. Sure, I can use the legacy versions of the software... but for how long? These are not things I should be feeling. Without trust, a brand is nothing.

    Having lived through the FCPro 7 to FCPro X issue I admit I would rather have been told everything upfront. I'd have preferred FCPo 7 to be still there and supported and asked to try FCPro X and ease into it with assurances it was a work in progress. The solution would have been for Apple to contact all FCPro 7 users and offers them a beta of FCPro X and ask us to use it and give feed back. IMHO we would have all been enthusiastic and excited to be part of the transition and supportive every step of the way. I just spent the last several months doing exactly that with Mavericks and Mavericks Serve after all. I even pay Apple for the privilege!

    Perhaps iWork '13 beta might have been a good idea too. We Mac enthusiasts work untold hours testing stuff. Apple should harness this same enthusiasm it gets from Developers, from the general population with apps. No one would bitch if iWork '9 was still there and iWork '13 was dubbed a beta.
  • Reply 43 of 218
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Software developers should be shot for removing functionality in new versions of software.
    If car companies did this, they'd be out of business. Imagine the new version of your car, which has all the mod-cons, minus ABS or airbags or cruise control etc...

    Actually I went out of my way the last time to make sure my truck didn't have cruise control, power windows or power mirrors. I could have done without the ABS too. The problem is some of those so called advancements are a step backwards in some environments. If you ever had a powered window self destruct because the windows are frozen you will know what I mean. Sometimes reliability trumps tweaky unreliable features.

    Beyond that you do realize that the developers are delivering exactly what many of us have been asking for. You see from my perspective this is an upgrade. I've lost nothing of value but gained significant capability. So yeah it is an upgrade.
  • Reply 44 of 218
    runbuhrunbuh Posts: 315member
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

     

    In that case you'll have to find a copy of the old version.  Or have them export it as a PDF or .doc




    Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files?  Those who have upgraded either have to maintain the old version (shit for sense) or spend countless hours updating all of their existing documents?  What happens to the poor schmuck who just double-clicks on an older format document in email, but the new version of the app opens the document (and the document is missing information because the new app stripped old the old app's features)?  Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever.  This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market.  Change is good - no doubt - but forcing significantly more work on your customers in order to deal with an application upgrade is ludicrous.

     

    From a consumer perspective - who cares?  They'll just suck it up and eventually update their old files.

  • Reply 45 of 218
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    glnf wrote: »
    Nothing is lost? Our Media and Film University where I sometimes give lectures has migrated completely away from Final Cut Studio to Adobe and Avid products. Why not FCPX? For the simple reason that you can't educate future industry professionals on a tool that might not exist anymore when they graduate in 3 years.
    What is this Irrational "U". Really you have no way of knowing how long FCPX will be around and frankly you can't be sure the Adobe or Avid products will be around in three years. Especially when the Avid products are more or less crap.

    Beyond that what sort of silly ass university teaches the use of a specific app instead of the art behind the creation of the product. If any thing the students should be exposed to a number of editing tools rather than just one. This reminds me of the misunderstanding people have with regards to computer science courses, where they think the program is about learning a computer programming language.
    I'm talking about several hundred graduates each year in out city alone. Btw. Final Cut Studio was besides Logic the main reason creative people work on Apple computers. When you go Adobe you can as well use a window machine. And thats what a lot of students are now doing

    True creative people take on the tools that enable them to realize what is in their imaginations. To that end FCPX is a perfect tool for the creative person. The other tools are oriented towards drones that simply do as they are told.

    Frankly it is too bad you didn't mention the schools name because I would suggest that potential students stay away from the school and the program. There is more to creativity than being taught to use questionable tools. Especially tools from the likes of Avid which might not be around much longer.
  • Reply 46 of 218
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,758member
    wizard69 wrote: »
    Actually I went out of my way the last time to make sure my truck didn't have cruise control, power windows or power mirrors. I could have done without the ABS too. The problem is some of those so called advancements are a step backwards in some environments. If you ever had a powered window self destruct because the windows are frozen you will know what I mean. Sometimes reliability trumps tweaky unreliable features.

    Beyond that you do realize that the developers are delivering exactly what many of us have been asking for. You see from my perspective this is an upgrade. I've lost nothing of value but gained significant capability. So yeah it is an upgrade.

    That's an overly simplistic attitude. Your analogy is not applicable in the slightest.

    Yes there are some amazing, great advances ... collaboration is awesome for example, cross Apple device support amazing, but yes they dropped some features that will be crucial for many users. Yes I expect those features to come back. It's simply about the time Apple had to get the product ready for the show and tell IMHO.

    As I already posted, I feel Apple might have been better launching them as beta products and keeping the '9 iWork going until '13 was fully up to speed. Then everyone would be happy. It's all about psychology in the end, as a beta folks would use it but also use the previous version when needed, they can do that now all we hear is bitching as folks feel forced to use a product with features they need missing, plus fear '9 won't be there at all soon. One can almost predict Apple announcing they will keep '9 available till '13 fully up to speed any day now to calm users down. As a beta that would have been implicit.
  • Reply 47 of 218
    runbuhrunbuh Posts: 315member

    Also - what happens to someone using an iPad?  If they have the new version of the app, and they receive an email with a file created using the old version, can the iPad read the file without having old features stripped out?  I think it's pretty hard to keep the old version and the new version of these apps on an iPad at the same time (certainly not something for the faint at heart).

  • Reply 48 of 218
    clemynxclemynx Posts: 1,552member
    These new apps look and work great. The removal of functions is not acceptable, even if they want iOS and Mac apps to be totally cross compatible. And some functions could still exist while not being shown on iOS (like the side ruler)
  • Reply 49 of 218
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,758member
    runbuh wrote: »
    Also - what happens to someone using an iPad?  If they have the new version of the app, and they receive an email with a file created using the old version, can the iPad read the file without having old features stripped out?  I think it's pretty hard to keep the old version and the new version of these apps on an iPad at the same time (certainly not something for the faint at heart).

    Yes you can open because you transfer the file via iCloud remember so the file on iCloud will be rendered cross device compatible and yes it will be now stripped of unsupported features such as text linkages. As I keep saying, my fingers are crossed in hope this is phase one and features will be added back over time.

    One thing that is not being mentioned is Pro apps not yet having iCloud collaboration yet. I can imagine the screams would be louder if Apple dropped features to gain iCloud, cross device compatibility and collaboration working in pro apps! However, I dream of one day having this. For example, Logic Pro X with full iCloud based collaboration and all the features intact would take the music industry by storm!
  • Reply 50 of 218
    andysolandysol Posts: 2,506member
    ascii wrote: »
    This is the second questionable decision by whomever is the software architect for iWork. The first was wasting years of man hours developing a web version, in what has been an app-centric world for several years now (thanks to Apple in fact). *Ring ring* *Ring ring* Hey iWork architect, it's for you! It's the 2000s and they want their web app back.

    That's my most useful feature. It allows me to freely send a link to anyone- even those on android and Windows. Unless you'd prefer conceding that territory to google docs to expand their market. Not to mention the selling aspect of "anyone can view and work on iWork documents- even those on android and windows" for when they are giving away free product. Unless of course you'd rather concede that business to office on iPad once released. All this helps edge out the competitors and helps apple with securing some form of office productivity in the future instead of being totally irrelevant.
  • Reply 51 of 218
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by robogobo View Post

     

    You can get the old version for a new machine by using the Migration Assistant when you set the new machine up, or even afterward by dragging the application over File Sharing from the old machine, or a Time Machine backup.  Apple will never remove the old version or files.  They will always be there.  

     

    iWork was rewritten to achieve parity on a roadmap to the future.  It was critical and necessary.  Like FCPX, the features will be restored in time and until then, '09 will continue to function normally.  Nothing is lost.


    Yes, the old versions will always be there.  Whether they'll work or not depends on how many other changes Apple decides to make in OS X to bring it closer to iOS.

     

    And whether this was "critical and necessary" or not is a matter of opinion, on which we differ. Why it was critical and necessary to remove useful features in the interest of cross-platform compatibility, rather than forking off a distinct product (which might, as you say, eventually converge with the more powerful one) is not at all apparent.

  • Reply 52 of 218
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,758member
    andysol wrote: »
    That's my most useful feature. It allows me to freely send a link to anyone- even those on android and Windows. Unless you'd prefer giving that territory to google docs to expand their market. No to mention the selling aspect of "anyone can view and work on iWork documents- even those on android and windows" for when they are giving away free product. Unless of course you'd rather relegate that business to office on iPad once released. All this helps edge out the competitors and helps apple with securing some form of office productivity in the future instead of being totally irrelevant.

    Exactly right. I am sure we are going through growing pains now, in a year or two we will have a mind blowing cloud set up for OS X and iOS alike ... and yes even the poor folks on lesser equipment can join in on the periphery. :smokey:

    You are correct to point out those new features, they are being ignored in the screaming about (hopefully temporarily) lost features.
  • Reply 53 of 218
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jobsonmyface View Post



    The dumbing down continues. Did apple learn nothing from the FCX fiasco or are they still too arrogant?

     

    "Dumbing down" of Apple's software is the common objection, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Apple, in my opinion, has done a horrible job of explaining _why_ certain notable decisions have been made. iWork's current transition is yet another perfect example of this.

     

    iWork is being pushed in a meaningful way across both OSes (OS X and iOS). In the process certain compromises had to be made in the immediate term. Features will be added "back" across the platform going forward, but this takes time.

     

    On the topic of Final Cut Pro X, watch this explanation of what's _not_ wrong with the software. Start at 13:40:

     

     

    The problem is not with FCPX, it's with Apple's narrative, and this video provides a nice lens through which to consider many of Apple's decisions.

  • Reply 54 of 218
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    I kinda see your points but overall I think you are way off base. Successful businesses hire people that can become an asset to the company, if you got employees that are so stupid they can't handle this transition then you have problems. Seriously, it may sound rough but do you really want to have people in your employ that can't handle these trivial issues?
    runbuh wrote: »

    Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files?  Those who have upgraded either have to maintain the old version (shit for sense) or spend countless hours updating all of their existing documents? 
    Or maybe not, it really depends upon the features they use. It could be worst, you could be operating in a regulated environment and have to update all your documents at regular intervals anyways.
    What happens to the poor schmuck who just double-clicks on an older format document in email, but the new version of the app opens the document (and the document is missing information because the new app stripped old the old app's features)? 
    Actually nothing, he can go back to his E-Mail program of choice and download the file from the E-Mail server again.
    Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever. 
    Then why do it? You really shouldn't have to put excessive training effort into this. You should expect more from your employees. If it bothers you too much you could always write a script to update all the file names of existing iWork documents to indicate that they are a pre 2013 version.
    This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market.  Change is good - no doubt - but forcing significantly more work on your customers in order to deal with an application upgrade is ludicrous.
    My god how in the hell can you run a business by making mountains out of mole hills?
    From a consumer perspective - who cares?  They'll just suck it up and eventually update their old files.
    You really need to spend a few months in a regulated environment. Controlled documents need to be updated regularly even if it is just to mark the history information that the file has been reviewed. Beyond that I've walked away from business where it is obvious that nothing gets updated or reviewed. In the end a business that is sloppy with its documents just looks shoddy and unprofessional. In the end your telling the world your business can't handle this issue just makes you look very poor in the eye of others.
  • Reply 55 of 218

    As others have pointed out, In Pages 5.0 one can no longer link text boxes. This is a serious problem for sophisticated layouts that many of us have developed over the years. In the new Numbers, one can no longer “mark for move” which was among the most useful time savers and far better than cut and paste for working in huge, multi tab spreadsheets. There are many other glaring omissions in this ‘update.’ Sigh…one step forward…many back.

  • Reply 56 of 218
    MacProMacPro Posts: 19,758member
    As others have pointed out, In Pages 5.0 one can no longer link text boxes. This is a serious problem for sophisticated layouts that many of us have developed over the years. In the new Numbers, one can no longer “mark for move” which was among the most useful time savers and far better than cut and paste for working in huge, multi tab spreadsheets. There are many other glaring omissions in this ‘update.’ Sigh…one step forward…many back.

    Yes, I hope that's back ASAP but look what you can do that you couldn't before ... let's all just be positive and urge Apple to keep working so we have it all. :)
  • Reply 57 of 218
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by runbuh View Post

     



    Well - that certainly makes sense from a business perspective.  My employees have to figure out which version of the apps to open which versions of the files?  Those who have upgraded either have to maintain the old version (shit for sense) or spend countless hours updating all of their existing documents?  What happens to the poor schmuck who just double-clicks on an older format document in email, but the new version of the app opens the document (and the document is missing information because the new app stripped old the old app's features)?  Now I have to train my users to save the document somewhere and check it out before opening it so that know which version of the app to use before opening it?  Make everyone start sharing docs in "doc" format?  This makes no business sense whosoever.  This is why Apple has trouble penetrating the business market.  Change is good - no doubt - but forcing significantly more work on your customers in order to deal with an application upgrade is ludicrous.

     

    From a consumer perspective - who cares?  They'll just suck it up and eventually update their old files.


    Welcome to the world of computers.  But you should probably just go back to using a typewriter. 

  • Reply 58 of 218
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Linguist View Post

     

    Yes, the old versions will always be there.  Whether they'll work or not depends on how many other changes Apple decides to make in OS X to bring it closer to iOS.

     

    And whether this was "critical and necessary" or not is a matter of opinion, on which we differ. Why it was critical and necessary to remove useful features in the interest of cross-platform compatibility, rather than forking off a distinct product (which might, as you say, eventually converge with the more powerful one) is not at all apparent.


    It's very apparent to me.  The roadmap was for cross platform parity.  In order to do this, now was the time to bring things down to the common denominator and develop them side by side.  It had to be done eventually and bulking up the OS X version wasn't going to make it any easier.

  • Reply 59 of 218
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by djsherly View Post



    The criticism that one should use the old app is unwarranted.



    Why should anyone be reasonably expected to know they should do this? A brand new version was just released. Why would you have any reason to suspect it would render you existing files unusable?



    Imagine the LMFAO if Microsoft had done this.



    I took one look at the new pages and moved right back. Thankfully I didn't lose any files, but time machine would have had my back, I guess. That's one thing to be thankful for.

    Well, I've once rushed in hurry to a trainee computer who still ran Excel 2003 to use a really basic cross-tab functionality depleted in Excel 2007.

     

    Since then, and because my boss don't want to spend $ to buy a new Office version just to regain old functionalities, I've learn to write complex formula to manually replicate this lost basic functionality...

     

    And with a little search you can find a ton-load of angry article about the revamped "ribboned" Office (paying) update.

     

    The major difference is that "ribboned" Office was mostly a GUI update, some old beasts were still alive under the hood.

    With this new iWork, Apple finally gone 64bits and introduce a new framework that promise to provide unified experience across many way to access your documents. And don't dare to tell me that Office 365 is at the same level...

  • Reply 60 of 218
    pazuzupazuzu Posts: 1,728member
    It's all Scott Forstall's fault!

    Use Office- problem solved.
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