Apple, 67 other businesses file against North Carolina's HB2 'bathroom' law

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  • Reply 21 of 127
    fallenjtfallenjt Posts: 4,056member
    As long as you look like a man/women then I have no problem with you using whatever bathroom is most aligned with what you look like as long as you shut up, do your business, and get out without making a big deal about it. 

    This wasn't a big deal before so I don't know why it is now. I guess Obama and Clinton had to drum up some other non-issue to get voters all riled up and go against conservatives. 
    Look like? What about a female-looking person with a dick sitting next to your wife in woman restroom?
  • Reply 22 of 127
    foggyhillfoggyhill Posts: 4,767member
    My default stance on this is that it should be kept simple.  I don't care what you were born with, if you've got stand-up equipment, then use the restroom already in existence designed for those with that equipment.  If not, then use the other restroom.  Starting from that stance, what problems exist? 
    Huh, So you want Trans MEn, most don't get operated because of costs and the fact the result is terrible (despite cost) to go in the women's restroom?
    Nobody seems to think they exist, but they're almost as plentiful as trans women, though they are a bit more inconspicuous.
    You do know how they look after 2 years on testosterone don't you?
    Do you think a woman would be more worried about a stubly muscle bound Trans Men or a low muscle mass tall trans women?

    Considering a lot of gay/queer women are pretty male in appearance (even without testosterone), will they have to show ID at the door of the restroom or drop their pants to not offend (sic).

    Also, why not be worried about gay/bi male/female being in restroom with the gender they're attracted too? (isn't that what's the "problem" (sic)).
    Is it because asking for sexual preference is too hard to the conservative twits have moved on to a more convenient and more defenseless target.

    So, your "solution" is not so great.

    It's also trying to problem that doesn't exist. There are already laws against doing anything bad (whatever it is) in restrooms and you don't need an extra law to further define it (especially since it is barely enforceable anyway).





    baconstangwaverboyDeelron
  • Reply 23 of 127
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    foggyhill said:
    Is that medical expertise or is that some bullshit coming out of your fucking mouth.
    That’d be reading comprehension of all medical studies ever done, yeah.

    foggyhill
    said:
    Huh, So you want Trans Men, most don’t get operated because of costs and the fact the result is terrible (despite cost)...
    What’s this? A “medical procedure” that ends with “the wound must be kept open to prevent healing” is a “terrible result”? 

    Who would have thought! Ha!
    It's also trying to problem that doesn't exist.
    The problem is mental illness. The cure is actually doing something about it instead of enabling it.
    edited July 2016
  • Reply 24 of 127
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member
    Deelron said:
    apple ][ said:
    You know, I've actually come around on a lot of issues, and I do support gay marriage and other lgbt rights, but I don't know about this whole bathroom business.

    I mean, what's to stop some pervert from just declaring that they're transgender all of a sudden, and then the pervert can just go on a city-wide tour of women's restrooms, and changing rooms and other places that are only for females?

    What do females have to say about this? They're the ones that will have to be subjected to the intruder in their bathroom.

    Would a parent want their underaged daughter to be using the same restrooms that a big hairy male uses?

    I'm just saying.

    There's little a new law is going to do to stop a pervert from being a pervert. You don't get free rights to start opening stalls, taking pictures or peering over them (or worse) merely because you're the same gender.

    Whats to stop them? I dunno, probably common sense given that they would likely have the hassle of being arrested if they did anything that could be constituted as currently illegal for same gendered people, and there would be an investigation of the person's past history as any evidence of transgenderism. I doubt "I became transgender one minute before entering the bathroom" would be an accepted legal argument. 
     
    I'm a parent and I'd prefer no one to be using the bathroom at the same time as my child, even small, hairless ones. On the plus side there's a great many places we go that either a) are populated enough a pervert would likely be spotted or b) have a family restroom that I'm less concerned.  If a child of mine is going unaccompanied into an empty, multiple stall bathroom I'm not sure I'd be any more concerned if one identifiably transgender person out of the gobs of legitimately awful people out there were possibly in there. 


    Pretty much spot on. If you assault a child or an adult then you’re breaking the law, regardless of what gender you identify with. This could be why perverts dressing as women so they can set up surveillance in the ladies room doesn't appear to be as common as people would have us believe.

    http://time.com/4314896/transgender-bathroom-bill-male-predators-argument/

    And it certainly isn't any higher in places that don't force transgendered people into the wrong bathroom.
    baconstanglordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 25 of 127
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    hittrj01 said:
    paxman said:
    What?? Please take a second to think about the logistics of what you just wrote. If someone has female genitalia, they are a female, and vice versa for male. This whole issue is a mental illness issue. And before you label me a bigot and hateful and whatever else, look up Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria. They are medically recognized mental disorders that they are trying to find a cure for.

    I am all for people getting help, but getting the right kind of help is the only real solution. Chopping something off or putting something there that isn't doesn't make the real problem go away.
    From the info pages of the National Health Service: http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/Gender-dysphoria/Pages/Introduction.aspx


    This mismatch between sex and gender identity can lead to distressing and uncomfortable feelings that are called gender dysphoria. Gender dysphoria is a recognised medical condition, for which treatment is sometimes appropriate. It's not a mental illness.


    So is it okay to label you a bigot and hateful and whatever else now…? I mean, you seem to think it's okay to label transgendered people as mentally ill, so it seems only fair.
    edited July 2016 baconstangsingularitylordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 26 of 127
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    Rayz2016 said:
    you seem to think it's okay to label transgendered people as mentally ill, so it seems only fair.

    Johns Hopkins Psychiatrist: Transgender is ‘Mental Disorder;’ Sex Change ‘Biologically Impossible’

    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/michael-w-chapman/johns-hopkins-psychiatrist-transgender-mental-disorder-sex-change

    Dr. Paul R. McHugh, the former psychiatrist-in-chief for Johns Hopkins Hospital and its current Distinguished Service Professor of Psychiatry, said that transgenderism is a “mental disorder” that merits treatment, that sex change is “biologically impossible,” and that people who promote sexual reassignment surgery are collaborating with and promoting a mental disorder.

    The transgendered person’s disorder, said Dr. McHugh, is in the person’s “assumption” that they are different than the physical reality of their body, their maleness or femaleness, as assigned by nature. It is a disorder similar to a “dangerously thin” person suffering anorexia who looks in the mirror and thinks they are “overweight,” said McHugh.

    He also reported on a new study showing that the suicide rate among transgendered people who had reassignment surgery is 20 times higher than the suicide rate among non-transgender people. Dr. McHugh further noted studies from Vanderbilt University and London’s Portman Clinic of children who had expressed transgender feelings but for whom, over time, 70%-80% “spontaneously lost those feelings.”

    Transgenderism Is A Mental Illness, Not A Civil Rights Issue

    http://townhall.com/columnists/johnhawkins/2014/09/30/transgenderism-is-a-mental-illness-not-a-civil-rights-issue-n1898464/page/full

    If someone came to a doctor and asked him to cut off a perfectly healthy arm because it just felt “wrong” for the arm to be there, should the doctor do it? This isn't an idle question because this does happen with a mental illness called Body Integrity Identity Disorder (BIID). People who have it feel as if they're not supposed to have a certain body part, like an arm or leg. As a general rule, doctors won't remove a healthy body part; so some of these poor deluded people crush, mangle, burn, or otherwise deliberately destroy their own arms or legs in order to get a surgeon to slice them off.

    This raises a question: Are surgeons who refuse to remove healthy limbs from people with BIID doing them a service because they're mentally ill or are they denying them their civil rights? MOST of us would say that a surgeon who refuses to cut off a healthy leg is doing the right thing. Of course, not everyone would agree. In fact, there are some people who will tell you that mental illness is a “super power.” 

    Additionally, your mortality rate will be 51% higher than the general population because of suicide and all the female hormones you’ve pumped into your body en masse. In fact, the suicide rate for people who are transgender is 25 times that of the general population according to the American Psychological Association.

    http://www.eje-online.org/content/164/4/635.full.pdf

    Jerry Springer-I'm Happy I Cut Off My Legs!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvY2ScZBCtQ

    Adult Gender Identity Disorder (GID) Can Remit

    http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/Dii/S0010440X00305168

    This fluctuation can be in tandem with that of comorbid psychopathology or in response to sexual and other life events. Remission has been documented at up to 10 years. If evaluated over many years, GIDs and paraphilias can be less fixed than is often thought. The frequency of permanent remission may be underestimated, as such subjects may not consult clinicians. So if you have other problems, you can get GID. Also, they found adults which had GID up to 10 years and then it vanished. 

    Transsexualism, Dissociation,and Child Abuse

    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1300/J056v06n03_04

    Sixty percent reported one or more types of severe child abuse. In the course of discussing other issues, participants also reported having experienced many of the commonly cited initial and long-term effects of child abuse, including fear, anxiety and depression, eating disorders, substance abuse, excessive aggression, and suicide ideation and attempts. [...] I have speculated, as have some of the participants themselves, that in some cases transsexualism may be an adaptive extreme dissociative swival response to severe child abuse.

    Most people with GID show effects of child abuse, even 60% openly reported serve ones. So instead of being a ‘genetic’ problem, he (and the people he interviewed) speculated that it was an adaptive response to this early child abuse.

    The frequency of personality disorders in patients with gender identity disorder

    http://mjiri.iums.ac.ir/browse.php?a_code=A-10-1-722&slc_lang=fa&sid=1

    The frequency of personality disorders was 81.4%. The most frequent personality disorder was narcissistic personality disorder (57.1%) and the least was borderline personality disorder. The average number of diagnoses was 3 per patient.

    Personality Disorders in Persons with Gender Identity Disorder

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/tswj/2014/809058/abs/

    Persons with GID compared to cisgender heterosexuals have higher presence of PDs, particularly Paranoid PD, avoidant PDs, and comorbid PDs. In addition. MtF persons are characterized by a more severe psychopathological profile. Short: They do have more PDs and MtF are even more damaged then FtM.

    Increased Gender Variance in Autism Spectrum Disorders and Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder

    http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10508-014-0285-3

    Evidence suggests over-representation of autism spectrum disorders (ASDs) and behavioral difficulties among people referred for gender issues [...] As compared to non-referred comparisons, participants with ASD were 7.59x more likely to express gender variance; participants with ADHD were 6.64 times more likely to express gender variance. Autists have around 8x more GID and people with ADHD around 7x the average.

    Gender Identity Disorder and Schizophrenia: Neurodevelopmental Disorders with Common Causal Mechanisms?

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/schizort/2014/463757/abs/

    Clinical evidence suggests that schizophrenia occurs in patients with GID at rates higher than in the general population and that patients with GID may have schizophrenia-like personality traits. Conversely, patients with schizophrenia may experience alterations in gender identity and gender role perception. Neurobiological research, including brain imaging and studies of finger length ratio and handedness, suggests that both these disorders are associated with altered cerebral sexual dimorphism and changes in cerebral lateralization. Various mechanisms, such as Toxoplasma infection, reduced levels of brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), early childhood adversity, and links with autism spectrum disorders, may account for some of this overlap.

    So people with GID are similar to those who have schizophrenia-like personality traits which suggests that something in the brain is fucked up which can stem from infections, autism, some brain imbalance or childhood problems. 

    A Follow-up Study of Boys with Gender Identity Disorder

    https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/handle/1807/34926

    This study provided information on the long term psychosexual and psychiatric outcomes of 139 boys with gender identity disorder (GID). [...] At follow-up, 17 participants (12.2%) were judged to have persistent gender dysphoria. Regarding sexual orientation, 82 (63.6%) participants were classified as bisexual/ homosexual in fantasy and 51 (47.2%) participants were classified as bisexual/homosexual in behavior.

    So here they studied boys at around 8 and then at 20 regarding the development of GID. Of these 139 boys which had GID at the first study only 12% had it 12 years later, 47% were bi/gay and 41% were hetero or asexual.

    Psychiatric Comorbidity of Gender Identity Disorders: A Survey Among Dutch Psychiatrists

    http://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.7.1332

    These respondents reported on 584 patients with cross-gender identification. In 225 patients (39%), gender identity disorder was regarded as the primary diagnosis. For the remaining 359 patients (61%), cross-gender identification was comorbid with other psychiatric disorders. In 270 (75%) of these 359 patients, cross-gender identification was interpreted as an epiphenomenon of other psychiatric illnesses, notably personality, mood, dissociative, and psychotic disorders. In around 75% of the patients, GID was seen as the result of other personality problems / illnesses.

    Psychiatric Axis I Comorbidities among Patients with Gender Dysphoria

    http://www.hindawi.com/journals/psychiatry/2014/971814/abs/

    Eighty-three patients requesting sex reassignment surgery (SRS) were recruited and assessed through the Persian Structured Clinical Interview for DSM-IV Axis I disorders (SCID-I). Results. Fifty-seven (62.7%) patients had at least one psychiatric comorbidity. Major depressive disorder (33.7%), specific phobia (20.5%), and adjustment disorder (15.7%) were the three most prevalent disorders.



    TL;DR:
    1. Coming to this part proves you don’t give a fuck. 2. Yes.
  • Reply 27 of 127
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 6,957member

    apple ][ said:
    You know, I've actually come around on a lot of issues, and I do support gay marriage and other lgbt rights, but I don't know about this whole bathroom business.

    I mean, what's to stop some pervert from just declaring that they're transgender all of a sudden, and then the pervert can just go on a city-wide tour of women's restrooms, and changing rooms and other places that are only for females?

    What do females have to say about this? They're the ones that will have to be subjected to the intruder in their bathroom.

    Would a parent want their underaged daughter to be using the same restrooms that a big hairy male uses?

    I'm just saying.

    So Doris identifies with being a male. She takes hormones, has the operation, goes to live in North Carolina.

    Under their laws, your daughter is now forced to use the same bathroom as a big hairy male called Dominic.

    baconstanglordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 28 of 127
    moreckmoreck Posts: 187member
    Yay big government, down with states rights, right? 
    When states can't be trusted to uphold the fucking constitution, Washington has to step in and remind them who's in charge here. I find it ironic that you're bitching about "big government" when this bill and TRAP laws are exactly that. You conservative hypocrites crack me up.
    baconstangsingularitystourquelordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 29 of 127
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    moreck said:
    When states can't be trusted to uphold the fucking constitution
    So the Constitution grants the federal government the power to regulate bathrooms where, exactly?
    ...TRAP laws...
    Isn’t that insensitive or something?
    baconstangjoseph_went_south
  • Reply 30 of 127
    rotateleftbyterotateleftbyte Posts: 1,630member
    wood1208 said:
    NC should have left whatever was original law alone and offer to add 3rd kind bathroom in new constructions or if extra bathroom is available in existing facility than convert one for transgender people. So, provide male, female and trans type bathrooms.
    Don't you think that the religious zealots who think that being Trans is a sin won't be targetting those 'trans' bathrooms?
    I'd expect that in some places anyone using one might be subject to physical violence.

    My sister is trans. She would never think of going into a mens bathroom. Have you seen the stalls in some of them. No right minded male or female would willingly sit down to do their business.
    NC (and OK) are just places to avoid and not spend any $$$$. Shame really.

    baconstanglordjohnwhorfin
  • Reply 31 of 127
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,780member
    There is nothing wrong with the way it was a few months ago. Men use the men's room and women use the women's. 

    The entirety of the USA should not have their morality and safety thrown away to satisfy a few that don't want to accept reality. 
    tallest skil
  • Reply 32 of 127
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,780member
    Well done on coming around on other issues, here is another one where you need to get informed.
    Google the name Buck Angel and let me know if you think a law forcing him to use the female restroom makes any sort of sense.
    People go to the restroom for the same reason, do their business with a minimum of privacy and peace and quiet -- well, with the exception of a few Republican lawmakers like Larry Craig. "What's to stop some pervert..." yes, right. Well, nothing is stopping them now, and the law is not designed to "stop some pervert". It's specifically crafted to harass transgender people. It's mean-spirited, nasty, bigoted, cruel, and unconstitutional. But it will get bigots to the polls in November, and that's pretty much the only reason it's there.
    Well, Buck Angel is a female regardless if she wants to look like a man. The law is not crafted to harass transgender people. I'm sorry but I don't want some man in the bathroom where my daughter is. To be quite honest, I'm sick of these LGTB groups. They discriminate themselves. LGTB groups will harass you if you don't agree with them. It's always their way or the highway, no middle ground. 
    Excellent post. 
    tallest skil
  • Reply 33 of 127
    9secondkox29secondkox2 Posts: 2,780member
    Tim, please stop trying to force your own beliefs on everyone and get back to that MB Pro update. 
    tallest skiljoseph_went_south
  • Reply 34 of 127
    Hey Apple maybe you and Mr. Cook could concentrate on making great products and leave your social and political views out of the public eye. Two days in a row I have seen statements from Apple that get me closer to the Android system every single day. I know Apple could care less about one user but they are alienating many of its long time users.
    tallest skil
  • Reply 35 of 127
    Yet more stupid LBGT comments from Apple and Cook.    The NC law is absolutely correct and was put in place to protect women and children, not to punish LBGT.
    tallest skilphilbert81
  • Reply 36 of 127
    apple ][ said:
    You know, I've actually come around on a lot of issues, and I do support gay marriage and other lgbt rights, but I don't know about this whole bathroom business.

    I mean, what's to stop some pervert from just declaring that they're transgender all of a sudden, and then the pervert can just go on a city-wide tour of women's restrooms, and changing rooms and other places that are only for females?

    What do females have to say about this? They're the ones that will have to be subjected to the intruder in their bathroom.

    Would a parent want their underaged daughter to be using the same restrooms that a big hairy male uses?

    I'm just sayingpaxman said:
    apple ][ said:
    You know, I've actually come around on a lot of issues, and I do support gay marriage and other lgbt rights, but I don't know about this whole bathroom business.

    I mean, what's to stop some pervert from just declaring that they're transgender all of a sudden, and then the pervert can just go on a city-wide tour of women's restrooms, and changing rooms and other places that are only for females?

    What do females have to say about this? They're the ones that will have to be subjected to the intruder in their bathroom.

    Would a parent want their underaged daughter to be using the same restrooms that a big hairy male uses?

    I'm just saying.
    I think it unlikely that perverts will dress up as the other sex to get access to bathrooms. They can do that anytime anyway. Also, I have never heard of a fake transgender person committing a rape, or another obscene act in a bathroom, though it probably has happened at some point, somewhere or other. I have two teenage girls and The prospect of a trans woman using the washroom does not worry me in the slightest. If I had a son that was transgender and he was forced to use men's bathrooms however, I would fear for his life. I really believe that people need to learn a little about what it means to be transgender before passing judgement. If I go to the bathroom and some guy goes and uses a stall to take a leak, I couldn't care less. If that guy has female gentalia it really is none of my business. If a woman stood next to me and hitched up her skirt I'd cast a sideways look, for sure, but I'd probably wonder why she didn't use the ladies'. 


    There is is a very simple way of thinking about this ..
    a pervert is going to find a way to be creapy no matter what the laws says .. 

    BTW this law has Nothing to do with Bathrooms this is another attempt the Crazy Christians nut jobs have of spreading their warped interpretation of the bible ..
    Hate is hate their still pissed the world is joining the 20th century while they would still like to  stay in the good ol 1800s where they had liberty to persecute and murder anyone that doesn't think like them !
    if someone tells you they are a good Christian ask them so is it ok for me to murder you because you are wearing clothing from 2 different fabrics ???
    Yes that Crazy shit is also in their bible !


  • Reply 37 of 127
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member
    stevekelso said:
    this is another attempt the Crazy Christians nut jobs have of spreading their warped interpretation of the bible ..
    Really? I don't see Cyrus Scofield mentioned anywhere...
    Hate is hate their still pissed the world is joining the 20th century while they would still like to  stay in the good ol 1800s 
    IT'S THE CURRENT YEAR!

    where they had liberty to persecute and murder anyone that doesn't think like them !
    It's the current year. Get some fucking historical knowledge.
    if someone tells you they are a good Christian ask them so is it ok for me to murder you because you are wearing clothing from 2 different fabrics ???
    Yes that Crazy shit is also in their bible !
    But unlike Christians, you don't comprehend what you're talking about in the slightest.
  • Reply 38 of 127
    This is stupid when government has nothing better to do than argue over bathrooms. Come on people I think we have more important things to do with our time. I don't pay taxes so my politician can wast our time quarreling over what bathroom to use and make a bill out of it. This is so disgusting. Our government has more important things to worry about like where they are gonna get the mental health they need for thinking a bathroom and sex related issues are things to waste America's time on. This is not an issue. This is just something sick!
    tallest skilbaconstang
  • Reply 39 of 127
    radarthekatradarthekat Posts: 3,855moderator
    foggyhill said:
    My default stance on this is that it should be kept simple.  I don't care what you were born with, if you've got stand-up equipment, then use the restroom already in existence designed for those with that equipment.  If not, then use the other restroom.  Starting from that stance, what problems exist? 
    Huh, So you want Trans MEn, most don't get operated because of costs and the fact the result is terrible (despite cost) to go in the women's restroom?
    Nobody seems to think they exist, but they're almost as plentiful as trans women, though they are a bit more inconspicuous.
    You do know how they look after 2 years on testosterone don't you?
    Do you think a woman would be more worried about a stubly muscle bound Trans Men or a low muscle mass tall trans women?

    Considering a lot of gay/queer women are pretty male in appearance (even without testosterone), will they have to show ID at the door of the restroom or drop their pants to not offend (sic).

    Also, why not be worried about gay/bi male/female being in restroom with the gender they're attracted too? (isn't that what's the "problem" (sic)).
    Is it because asking for sexual preference is too hard to the conservative twits have moved on to a more convenient and more defenseless target.

    So, your "solution" is not so great.

    It's also trying to problem that doesn't exist. There are already laws against doing anything bad (whatever it is) in restrooms and you don't need an extra law to further define it (especially since it is barely enforceable anyway).
    Amazing how people can't read.  First, I was very clear.  My DEFAULT position, meaning a first draft, of sorts.  Then, I clearly asked the question, starting from that stance, what problems exist?  Rather than stating problems, you start right off telling me what you assume I want.  What I want, is to know where the simple draft solution, the strawman I threw out, breaks down.  Where there are cases where it doesn't serve the populous.  This is how we collaborate to reach consensus.

    We're trying to solve a problem of fitting a whole spectrum of gender, with some individuals among the population in transition within that spectrum, and fitting every individual into one of two buckets, each of which represents just one point along the spectrum.  Not an easy issue to resolve.  So my starting position needs a little modification (all others should not just be dumped into the other restroom) and a little clarification.  I'm starting from an assumption that, in aggregate, the population representing the male portion of the spectrum is less likely to be in danger or even offended should someone enter their restroom who is far away from them on the spectrum.  So I'm basically defining my first rule, if you have stand-up equipment, use the restroom already in existence designed for use by those with that equipment, to cover a portion of the population that is easy to accomodate.  And I'm dropping my second, all-encompassing, rule (all others use the other restroom).  So we need a replacement second, third, fourth(?) rule to distribute the rest of the populace.  Or we can just let anyone do whatever they feel they want to do, but then why have separate gender-accommodating restrooms in the first place?  
    edited July 2016
  • Reply 40 of 127
    xbitxbit Posts: 391member
    I live in a city where a growing number of stores and restaurants have mixed gender restrooms. It's really not a big deal. The stalls mean that no one is going to see genitalia that they don't want to see.
    baconstanglordjohnwhorfin
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